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  • Subject: The Prisoner and the Gravemind
Subject: The Prisoner and the Gravemind

Games I like:,
Half-Minute Hero
MBU
Portal
Halo 3 is the best Halo ever
Maps I like: Turf, Avalanche, Pylon, Sandbox, Breakpoint and many more.

ajw34307, you are right about gravemind coming back./ If he survived one Halo array firing, he can survive another. Thread saved.

  • 03.29.2011 2:46 PM PDT


Posted by: Astrogenesis 1

Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: Astrogenesis 1
Where does it say Instalation 05 was fired at Charum Hakkor?


Bias' I.D. number is 05 -032. Just like how Sparks' was (in the terminals) 04 343. This indicates Bias' Halo was Installation 05.

"...I am a timeless chorus..."

Timeless One....

Obvious referance is obvious.

Mendicent Bias was a contender class Forerunner AI that was created to aid the Forerunners in their fight against the flood, not to be a monitor of a Halo Instalation.

Anyway, 2401 Penitent Tangent was the monitor for 05.

And I thought that it was the Master Builder that ordered the test firering at Charum Hakkor?

As far as my thoughts are in the gravemind being the prizoner, i think that they are not the same.

There can only be one gravemind at a time, explaining why there was not a gravemind on every instalation.


Read Cryptum, he was built thousands of years before the Flood War. He was reprogrammed to fight the Flood--maybe. But you're missing a lot of details.

  • 03.29.2011 3:51 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: Astrogenesis 1

Posted by: ROBERTO jh

Posted by: Astrogenesis 1
Where does it say Instalation 05 was fired at Charum Hakkor?


Bias' I.D. number is 05 -032. Just like how Sparks' was (in the terminals) 04 343. This indicates Bias' Halo was Installation 05.

"...I am a timeless chorus..."

Timeless One....

Obvious referance is obvious.

Mendicent Bias was a contender class Forerunner AI that was created to aid the Forerunners in their fight against the flood, not to be a monitor of a Halo Instalation.

Anyway, 2401 Penitent Tangent was the monitor for 05.

And I thought that it was the Master Builder that ordered the test firering at Charum Hakkor?

As far as my thoughts are in the gravemind being the prizoner, i think that they are not the same.

There can only be one gravemind at a time, explaining why there was not a gravemind on every instalation.


Read Cryptum, he was built thousands of years before the Flood War. He was reprogrammed to fight the Flood--maybe. But you're missing a lot of details.


I don't know exactly what your saying, but Medican bias was created specifically to fight the flood during the flood war.

And it was never said there could only be 1 gravemind at a time, for instance we have the proto-gravemind in halo wars devolping while there was already a mind at installation 5. The beasturim even theoritically speaks on the chance of a "super Gravemind" forming when two minds fuse. And talks about mobile and immoble minds.

  • 03.29.2011 3:57 PM PDT

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Posted by: Astrogenesis 1


Mendicent Bias was a contender class Forerunner AI that was created to aid the Forerunners in their fight against the flood, not to be a monitor of a Halo Instalation.

Anyway, 2401 Penitent Tangent was the monitor for 05.


Indeed he was created for that purpose....and how were they going to fight the flood? The Halo Array. It states Cryptum that:

1. Mendicant Bias WAS in control of at least one ring, at least in the oversight kind of way.

2. The forerunners DESTROYED more than half of the ORIGINAL Halo Array rings after Mendicant Bias went Rampant, Hence there being 2 installation 05s. Of the original 12 halos I believe 2 or 3 were in a good enough condition after the battle at the forerunner planet and another 4 or 5 were produced at the ark to replace the rest. With the original monitor having gone rampant and siding with the gravemind/Prisoner, they needed a new one, hence Penitent Tangent.

I believe that this Contender Class AI that was good enough to drive himself into rampancy and then also BRING HIMSELF BACK would probably be smart enough to convince a haughty forerunner to test the arrays power to bust the gravemind out.

but thats just my opinion

  • 03.29.2011 5:02 PM PDT


Posted by: anton1792
Penitent Tangent
"Not true. This installation has a successful utilization record of 1.2 trillion simulated and one actual. It is ready to fire on demand."

Delta Halo was fired when the Array was activated.

The ring used by MB at Charum Hakkor could not be 05, since that would then be 2 firings as opposed to the one. Unless these "small" firings directed at solar systems are regarded as simulations...


Right, hadn't remembered that. Well I think that might count as a simulation, as it was merely a test firing and containment was not meant to be initiated. Also, I think Tangent may been talking about the amount of times Delta Halo has been fired in order to stop the Flood, IE firing the whole Array.

And if 343 do decide to make Mendicant's Ring Delta Halo, it wouldn't really create any problems, as they've said that new info takes precedence over old, and it doesn't change anything significant to the story.

  • 03.30.2011 8:38 AM PDT

Oh hey there

Posted by: petarded2
It's a metaphor for the 07s' lack of identity. too old to be newfa­g, yet too new to be oldfa­g, we wander b.net in search of a home, forever trying to be something we are not.

I really just am not convinced that the prisoner and the Gravemind are the same being. Descriptions from Cryptum that you mentioned such as hands and eyes are just not features that we have come to associate with the Gravemind in the games or from Legends.

Not only that but just for some reason I have this urge to believe what the Prisoner told Didact, that he is a Precursor.

  • 03.30.2011 8:42 AM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

Posted by: Spartan1065
I really just am not convinced that the prisoner and the Gravemind are the same being. Descriptions from Cryptum that you mentioned such as hands and eyes are just not features that we have come to associate with the Gravemind in the games or from Legends.

Not only that but just for some reason I have this urge to believe what the Prisoner told Didact, that he is a Precursor.


Consider that his appearance would have changed when he assimilated the Flood. The extra hands would have become tentacles and the eyes may have been covered by biomass.

  • 03.30.2011 9:11 AM PDT

Oh hey there

Posted by: petarded2
It's a metaphor for the 07s' lack of identity. too old to be newfa­g, yet too new to be oldfa­g, we wander b.net in search of a home, forever trying to be something we are not.

Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: Spartan1065
I really just am not convinced that the prisoner and the Gravemind are the same being. Descriptions from Cryptum that you mentioned such as hands and eyes are just not features that we have come to associate with the Gravemind in the games or from Legends.

Not only that but just for some reason I have this urge to believe what the Prisoner told Didact, that he is a Precursor.


Consider that his appearance would have changed when he assimilated the Flood. The extra hands would have become tentacles and the eyes may have been covered by biomass.

In order to be a Gravemind at all doesn't that necessitate having the required biomass to function at that level of intelligence? The Gravemind that we have become familiar with was a far larger grouping of biomass, for example when we see it speaking to the Chief and Arbiter in H2, than the Prisoner would be. Or am I mistaken in thinking that the Gravemind is much larger? I don't have the Encyclopedia or anything in front of me so I can't really check at the moment.

[Edited on 03.30.2011 9:37 AM PDT]

  • 03.30.2011 9:35 AM PDT

Oh hey there

Posted by: petarded2
It's a metaphor for the 07s' lack of identity. too old to be newfa­g, yet too new to be oldfa­g, we wander b.net in search of a home, forever trying to be something we are not.

Even a quick perusing of some internet sources (their reliability of course can be questioned until I get my encyclopedia and other sources at home), has me thinking that the Gravemind as a being is far larger than the Prisoner as described in Cryptum. That Gravemind it can be assumed was as large if not larger than it's current incarnation as it was in the midst or at the end of the Forerunner Flood war.

Size comparison from bungie.org

Relative size to the Arbiter and John, Halo 2

[Edited on 03.30.2011 9:42 AM PDT]

  • 03.30.2011 9:41 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Spartan1065
Even a quick perusing of some internet sources (their reliability of course can be questioned until I get my encyclopedia and other sources at home), has me thinking that the Gravemind as a being is far larger than the Prisoner as described in Cryptum. That Gravemind it can be assumed was as large if not larger than it's current incarnation as it was in the midst or at the end of the Forerunner Flood war.

Size comparison from bungie.org

Relative size to the Arbiter and John, Halo 2


I Gave the heights of the two in my post on the first Page.

Note that medicant bias takes the prisoner and is en route to giving him to the flood. That would account for the additional biomass making him the gravemind we know of.


"Bestiarium:
The Flood have no culture as such, as they should be considered a single macroorganism instead of a group of individuals or even a group of subsentient individuals controlled by single, or a group of, [transsentient[?]] being(s)."

Transsentient

The same word used to describe the precursors.

Oh eff

[Edited on 03.30.2011 9:57 AM PDT]

  • 03.30.2011 9:46 AM PDT
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Yes I'm fairly young. No, that doesn't mean I'm automatically dumber than you or have less life experience, thats just generally the case. I am not your general case.

On the topic of Mendicant Bias, he is a collection of multiple Forerunner Metarch level Ancilla working in tandem as one mind, which is why he is so superior to other Forerunner ancilla.
Yes he was created almost one thousand years ago, but what you continually seem to forget is that he was created by the Didact to fight the Flood. His only purpose is to fight the Flood and nothing else. At least until he was corrupted by them, in which he was replaced by the rapidly built and less powerful Offensive Bias, who was tasked with containing Mendicant, as well as holding off the Flood until the Rings could be activated, something in which Offensive Bias succeeded.

Also, Mendicant Bias was not, I say again, NOT, the commander of the Halo Ring known as Installation-05 or Delta halo.
The numbers placed in front of a Forerunner ancillas name is a representation of which production model they are (343 Guilty Spark contains the number 04 as he is the fourth Ancilla of his class), which means the 05 in front of Mendicant's name is probably means he is the fifth of his class. This could mean that he is the first successful Contender class AI. It could also mean that there are five AIs making up his mind,. as you must remember that he is multiple minds acting in tandem.


[Edited on 05.10.2011 10:43 AM PDT]

  • 05.10.2011 10:42 AM PDT


Posted by: Spartan1065
Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: Spartan1065
I really just am not convinced that the prisoner and the Gravemind are the same being. Descriptions from Cryptum that you mentioned such as hands and eyes are just not features that we have come to associate with the Gravemind in the games or from Legends.

Not only that but just for some reason I have this urge to believe what the Prisoner told Didact, that he is a Precursor.


Consider that his appearance would have changed when he assimilated the Flood. The extra hands would have become tentacles and the eyes may have been covered by biomass.

In order to be a Gravemind at all doesn't that necessitate having the required biomass to function at that level of intelligence? The Gravemind that we have become familiar with was a far larger grouping of biomass, for example when we see it speaking to the Chief and Arbiter in H2, than the Prisoner would be. Or am I mistaken in thinking that the Gravemind is much larger? I don't have the Encyclopedia or anything in front of me so I can't really check at the moment.


Size wouldn't have much to do with it I don't think as he would have added more biomass to himself and grown far larger than he originally was.

And what I think is strong evidence that the Gravemind is unique is the other "brains" we've seen the Flood forming, they've not really looked anything like the Gravemind and have not been of very powerful intelligence, they're essentially just blobs of information that give the Flood a bit more of a semblance of organization. Also, when Humanity was fighting with the Flood in Cryptum there was no mention of a Gravemind or being of similar intelligence and power. The Flood lacked cohesion and organization entirely.

  • 05.10.2011 10:55 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: That Atheist
1. His only purpose is to fight the Flood and nothing else.

2. At least until he was corrupted by them, in which he was replaced by the rapidly built and less powerful Offensive Bias, who was tasked with containing Mendicant, as well as holding off the Flood until the Rings could be activated, something in which Offensive Bias succeeded.

3.Also, Mendicant Bias was not, I say again, NOT, the commander of the Halo Ring known as Installation-05 or Delta halo.
The numbers placed in front of a Forerunner ancillas name is a representation of which production model they are (343 Guilty Spark contains the number 04 as he is the fourth Ancilla of his class), which means the 05 in front of Mendicant's name is probably means he is the fifth of his class. This could mean that he is the first successful Contender class AI. It could also mean that there are five AIs making up his mind,. as you must remember that he is multiple minds acting in tandem.


1. Pre cryptum we know that MB was created to study the flood to find a weakness Didact could exploit. After cryptum we also know that he was part of a defense plan the forerunners set up which is more or less similar to martial law with MB in complete control.

2. that is pure conjecture, we do not know when or how long it took to create OB. And OBs only objective that we know of was to Stop Medicant bias from reaching the ark, that is and was it.

3. Again his serial number is 05-### and in cryptum he was in control of a halo ring which then contains the prisoner (which is the gravemind more or less) so by connecting the dots the installation is in charge of is delta halo.

I don't know where you got the idea of his number being the number of minds he has or anything like that. that is something you made up.

  • 05.10.2011 11:01 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Spartan1065
Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: Spartan1065
I really just am not convinced that the prisoner and the Gravemind are the same being. Descriptions from Cryptum that you mentioned such as hands and eyes are just not features that we have come to associate with the Gravemind in the games or from Legends.

Not only that but just for some reason I have this urge to believe what the Prisoner told Didact, that he is a Precursor.


Consider that his appearance would have changed when he assimilated the Flood. The extra hands would have become tentacles and the eyes may have been covered by biomass.

In order to be a Gravemind at all doesn't that necessitate having the required biomass to function at that level of intelligence? The Gravemind that we have become familiar with was a far larger grouping of biomass, for example when we see it speaking to the Chief and Arbiter in H2, than the Prisoner would be. Or am I mistaken in thinking that the Gravemind is much larger? I don't have the Encyclopedia or anything in front of me so I can't really check at the moment.


Size wouldn't have much to do with it I don't think as he would have added more biomass to himself and grown far larger than he originally was.

And what I think is strong evidence that the Gravemind is unique is the other "brains" we've seen the Flood forming, they've not really looked anything like the Gravemind and have not been of very powerful intelligence, they're essentially just blobs of information that give the Flood a bit more of a semblance of organization. Also, when Humanity was fighting with the Flood in Cryptum there was no mention of a Gravemind or being of similar intelligence and power. The Flood lacked cohesion and organization entirely.


well done coma, you've done your homework ;)

  • 05.10.2011 11:02 AM PDT


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Spartan1065
Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: Spartan1065
I really just am not convinced that the prisoner and the Gravemind are the same being. Descriptions from Cryptum that you mentioned such as hands and eyes are just not features that we have come to associate with the Gravemind in the games or from Legends.

Not only that but just for some reason I have this urge to believe what the Prisoner told Didact, that he is a Precursor.


Consider that his appearance would have changed when he assimilated the Flood. The extra hands would have become tentacles and the eyes may have been covered by biomass.

In order to be a Gravemind at all doesn't that necessitate having the required biomass to function at that level of intelligence? The Gravemind that we have become familiar with was a far larger grouping of biomass, for example when we see it speaking to the Chief and Arbiter in H2, than the Prisoner would be. Or am I mistaken in thinking that the Gravemind is much larger? I don't have the Encyclopedia or anything in front of me so I can't really check at the moment.


Size wouldn't have much to do with it I don't think as he would have added more biomass to himself and grown far larger than he originally was.

And what I think is strong evidence that the Gravemind is unique is the other "brains" we've seen the Flood forming, they've not really looked anything like the Gravemind and have not been of very powerful intelligence, they're essentially just blobs of information that give the Flood a bit more of a semblance of organization. Also, when Humanity was fighting with the Flood in Cryptum there was no mention of a Gravemind or being of similar intelligence and power. The Flood lacked cohesion and organization entirely.


well done coma, you've done your homework ;)


Why thank you, and I don't even have the books :P So I'm just going off memory and repeating the statements I agree with from other people XD lol.

  • 05.10.2011 7:19 PM PDT

I don't think it matters, really. The Flood isn't anywhere close to being defeated, nor is the Gravemind. I am sure he was laughing at John's activation of 04B, when we all know there are many many more worlds like the one in Halo Wars infested with the Flood, and should one Covenant ship slip up we've got the whole entire Human-Flood War going on again.

Who knows, the Flood may very well reach their intergalactic stage this time around. Time to assemble Blue Team, and possibly a "new" SPARTAN to follow in the Chief's footsteps.

  • 05.10.2011 8:21 PM PDT

I actually read on Halo.wikia.com that the Precurser made the flood as revenge against the Forerunner during the Precursor-Forerunner war.

  • 05.10.2011 8:45 PM PDT


Posted by: USArmyRanger7RB
I actually read on Halo.wikia.com that the Precurser made the flood as revenge against the Forerunner during the Precursor-Forerunner war.


That's just an extremely popular theory floating around amongst the fans, it's not confirmed as fact yet, and given what we know I don't think it ever will be, not as people claim anyway.

  • 05.10.2011 9:13 PM PDT
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aren't the precursors like the forerunners but able to accelerate life like it was child's play how can a flood be considered something like that though here's my idea maybe before they disappeared the precursors accidentaly created the flood or something

  • 05.11.2011 9:29 AM PDT
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Yes I'm fairly young. No, that doesn't mean I'm automatically dumber than you or have less life experience, thats just generally the case. I am not your general case.

Posted by: grey101

Posted by: That Atheist
1. His only purpose is to fight the Flood and nothing else.

2. At least until he was corrupted by them, in which he was replaced by the rapidly built and less powerful Offensive Bias, who was tasked with containing Mendicant, as well as holding off the Flood until the Rings could be activated, something in which Offensive Bias succeeded.

3.Also, Mendicant Bias was not, I say again, NOT, the commander of the Halo Ring known as Installation-05 or Delta halo.
The numbers placed in front of a Forerunner ancillas name is a representation of which production model they are (343 Guilty Spark contains the number 04 as he is the fourth Ancilla of his class), which means the 05 in front of Mendicant's name is probably means he is the fifth of his class. This could mean that he is the first successful Contender class AI. It could also mean that there are five AIs making up his mind,. as you must remember that he is multiple minds acting in tandem.


1. Pre cryptum we know that MB was created to study the flood to find a weakness Didact could exploit. After cryptum we also know that he was part of a defense plan the forerunners set up which is more or less similar to martial law with MB in complete control.

2. that is pure conjecture, we do not know when or how long it took to create OB. And OBs only objective that we know of was to Stop Medicant bias from reaching the ark, that is and was it.

3. Again his serial number is 05-### and in cryptum he was in control of a halo ring which then contains the prisoner (which is the gravemind more or less) so by connecting the dots the installation is in charge of is delta halo.

I don't know where you got the idea of his number being the number of minds he has or anything like that. that is something you made up.


1) It is still technically "fighting" the Flood. He was designed to stop them, would be e better phrase.

2) OB was tasked with stopping the Flood and preventing them from reaching the Ark, yes, which meant containing Mendicant Bias, as Mendicant knew the location of the Ark.

3) He was not in charge of a Halo. He may have taken temporary command of 05, similar to when an Admiral (MB) comes on board a ship, he is the in charge but the ship still technically belongs to the Captain (2401).
And the idea that 05 represents the AIs making him up or whether he was the first successful out of five prototypes is simply a theory, no need to get mad now.

  • 05.11.2011 10:31 AM PDT
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"but you already knew that, I mean, how couldn't you?

Only when no Human brick is left atop another, shall we be satisfied with your destruction.

At this point there isn't enough information to be sure, there are many possible options. I'll list a few that I think might be worth considering.

Points of note:

The Prisoner is confined in a structure of Precursor design, only openable from the outside. It may or may not be a prison.
The Prisoner is apparently aware of the nature of the Flood.
The Humans initially thought the Prisoner was a Precursor, but then later decided it was an "ancient abberation".
The Prisoner states it is "The last Precursor" when speaking to The Didact, it also states the Forerunner "ruthlessly destroyed" the Precursors, and that the Flood are their "answer".
The Prisoner apparently survived a Halo firing at close range, an event that killed all complex life in the system as well as shattering every structure in the entire system. It is seriously hard to kill.


Option 1:
The Flood are a Precursor bioweapon used in revenge against the rebellious Forerunner, the Prisoner is actually a Precursor survivour.

Points in favour:
The Prisoner outright states it is a Precursor when talking to the Didact, and claims the Flood are their answer to the Forerunner's betrayal.
The Precursor's biological knowledge is greater than the Human's or the Forerunner's, and something as biologically weird as the Flood seems unlikely to be natural.

Problems:
Initial delivery system (dust that takes centuries to generationally affect a mutation) is *very* poor for a bioweapon, effective mostly through luck it would seem. The ships that contained the mutagenic powder that would eventually result in the Flood are described as "clumsy in design" not something that would be assocciated with a civilisation that had as much starfaring experience as the Precursors. The ships also come from outside the galaxy, if the Forerunners eradicated the Precursors how did their bioweapons come in from outside the galaxy? Why did the Precursors simply not leave if they had the means to do so?

The spread from Pheru to Humans occurred due to Humans eating the meat of infected Pheru. Forerunners do not eat meat, thus would not be vulnerable to this method of infection. The infection apparently needs this stage, as it's only after humans become infected that the flood-ish disease becomes virulent, passing through touch primarily. This is also the first point that Flood-style group behaviour is noted.

The Prisoner is in a Precursor prison, not a Forerunner one. This strongly suggests he was imprisoned by the Precursors themselves.
During the Flood assault on the early Human empire (comparible tech to the Forerunner, and extensive holdings) the Prisoner is trapped in time-lock, unless the humans were shockingly inept, the gains the Flood were making would require a coordinating intelligence, and that intelligence could not have been the Prisoner.



Option 2:
The Prisoner is related to the Flood, but not a Precursor, it is simply lying to Didact. (It knew the Humans thought it a Precursor, and that both Humans and Forerunners somewhat revere the Precursors. It was aware the Forerunners had just "ruthlessly destroyed" the Humans who had destroyed the Flood.)
The Flood is genuinely extragalactic, and may not be a bioweapon, the automated ships may simply be acting as 'seed carriers' for the Flood lifeform.

Points in favour:
The Prisoner is aware the Humans initially thought it a Precursor, it is likely aware of the reverance many species hold for the Precursor.
Questions about advanced physics problems, or morality left it confused, if the Precursors were anything like the Forerunners these topics would be of note to any Precursor; The physics ones required to allow the Precursor hypertech, and the moral ones related to the Precursor concept of the Mantle.
The Prisoner is in a Precursor prison, suggesting the Precursors saw fit to imprison it in time.

The Forerunner revere the Precursors, it seems unlikely they slaughtered them all, not impossible by a long shot though.

The extragalactic vector for the Flood-dust ships is explained as they have been travelling for a long time across the void between galaxies. The "clumsy" ship design is a refelection of the Flood's lack of care for asthetics, they are Flood-made.
If the Flood are not a bioweapon then the length of time it takes the Flood strains to arise is not a problem, so long as the Flood genotype will eventually arise from the ashes, possibly the ancient ships were the Flood fleeing something? That would potentially explain the need for fully automated ships holding something that would not die or degrade, the journey was a long one.

Problems:
You have to assume the Prisoner was lying to Didact.
You have to assume the Prisoner was actually imprisoned.
If the Flood are extragalactic, it implies the Prisoner must be too, or have fought them.
If the Flood ships were the equivalent of spores, or seed pods, what did they have to flee that made them rely on automated and somewhat primitive looking ships? Why were they not pursued?
A lot of what the Gravemind says *IS* relatable to the context of the Prisoner, but his description does not match well any known Flood forms.


Option 3:
The Prisoner is NOT a prisoner, and is a Precursor.
The Flood were not originally a Bioweapon, but a Precursor experiment into different life forms, or biological information networks.

Points in favour:
The Precursor structure housing the "Prisoner" bears a strong resemblance to a Forerunner Cryptum. The title of the book may refer to more than just Didact's initial resting place.

The "Prisoner" told Didact the truth, so no need to assume it lied.

The Flood were not intended as a weapon, but were used as an ad-hoc revenge weapon as the Forerunners overthrew the Precursors. Or potentially the Flood were designed as something that could hold Precursor memories, much like a biological version of the Forerunner Domain, but were later perverted into a weapon. Which would explain both the Gravemind's name and outlook on the universe.

Problems:
The Prisoner does appear to be trapped, dependant on outside interference to "wake up". Unlike a Cryptum, time is stopped for the Prisoner, he is not eternally meditating or whatever the Didact was supposed to be doing, he is in some kind of stasis.

The Mantle is a Precursor concept, the Flood are a great big violation of that concept, if the Flood are a biological version of the Domain, something has gone terribly wrong.

Requires the Forerunner to have wiped out the Precursors, this is only ever mentioned by the Prisoner, and has a host of problems with it. Most notably WHY? And why revere them afterwards?
Problem of the ships, and where they came from, and why the Flood's initial vector was so poor as a weapon.

If the Prisoner is a Precursor, why did it so terrify the Humans that spoke to it? If it believed in the Mantle, why unleash the Flood?


Option 4:
The Prisoner *is* a prisoner, and is a Precursor.
The Flood were not originally a Bioweapon, but a Precursor experiment into different life forms, or biological information networks

Points in favour:
The Prisoner may have done something terrible, like turn the Flood into an ad-hoc weapon, this would go against what we know of Precursor beliefs and it would make sense that he was then imprisoned.
Explains it's knowledge of the Flood.
Explains why the Humans may have found it terrifying (Sociopathic/omnicidal tendancies make for very uncomfortable conversations I'd wager) .
If the Prisoner was imprisoned for doing something morally repulsive it could explain its lack of moral concepts.
Potential reason for the Forerunners rising up, if the Prisoner did something damning enough.
Explains the Gravemind's connection to the Prisoner, if they belonged to the Prisoner, the Gravemind may carry his imprint.

Problems
All of the above re the Flood's poor bio-weapon-ness, the seemingly extragalactic ships, and the level of access the Prisoner would have to have to build a species like the Flood, without it's contemporaries taking note and stopping it.

Why didn't the Precursors destroy the Flood when they captured the Prisoner?
Why was the Prisoner left alive by the Precursors, or even the Forerunners?


Conclusions:
The above options are not exhaustive, it could be a combination of any number of these points, or something else entirely, not enough information to be sure.

We can, however, conclude that the Prisoner is not in sole control of the Flood. During the first major outbreak it was still trapped in it's time-prison, and a Gravemind equivalant must have been present for the Flood to do so well against the Humans/San-Shyuum.

It seems likely that the Prisoner at the very least conversed with the Gravemind, as the Gravemind makes references to imprisonment and timelessness far to often to be a coincidence.

  • 05.11.2011 12:08 PM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

Posted by: That Atheist
And the idea that 05 represents the AIs making him up or whether he was the first successful out of five prototypes is simply a theory, no need to get mad now.


No, the 05 represents his Installation number. This was proven in the Terminals, when 343 converses with Mendicant Bias it comes up with "04 - 343".

[Edited on 05.11.2011 1:17 PM PDT]

  • 05.11.2011 1:16 PM PDT
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Yes I'm fairly young. No, that doesn't mean I'm automatically dumber than you or have less life experience, thats just generally the case. I am not your general case.

Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: That Atheist
And the idea that 05 represents the AIs making him up or whether he was the first successful out of five prototypes is simply a theory, no need to get mad now.


No, the 05 represents his Installation number. This was proven in the Terminals, when 343 converses with Mendicant Bias it comes up with "04 - 343".

Yes but with the release of Cryptum are the terminals even reliable anymore?
Another theory is out of all the rings, 05 was the one he chose as his "command ship", so while the ring is under 2401, the "Admiral' Mendicant bias, rides aboard as well and as such carries its numbering.

  • 05.11.2011 1:42 PM PDT
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Yes I'm fairly young. No, that doesn't mean I'm automatically dumber than you or have less life experience, thats just generally the case. I am not your general case.

Posted by: Fin5434p
At this point there isn't enough information to be sure, there are many possible options. I'll list a few that I think might be worth considering.

Points of note:

The Prisoner is confined in a structure of Precursor design, only openable from the outside. It may or may not be a prison.
The Prisoner is apparently aware of the nature of the Flood.
The Humans initially thought the Prisoner was a Precursor, but then later decided it was an "ancient abberation".
The Prisoner states it is "The last Precursor" when speaking to The Didact, it also states the Forerunner "ruthlessly destroyed" the Precursors, and that the Flood are their "answer".
The Prisoner apparently survived a Halo firing at close range, an event that killed all complex life in the system as well as shattering every structure in the entire system. It is seriously hard to kill.


Option 1:
The Flood are a Precursor bioweapon used in revenge against the rebellious Forerunner, the Prisoner is actually a Precursor survivour.

Points in favour:
The Prisoner outright states it is a Precursor when talking to the Didact, and claims the Flood are their answer to the Forerunner's betrayal.
The Precursor's biological knowledge is greater than the Human's or the Forerunner's, and something as biologically weird as the Flood seems unlikely to be natural.

Problems:
Initial delivery system (dust that takes centuries to generationally affect a mutation) is *very* poor for a bioweapon, effective mostly through luck it would seem. The ships that contained the mutagenic powder that would eventually result in the Flood are described as "clumsy in design" not something that would be assocciated with a civilisation that had as much starfaring experience as the Precursors. The ships also come from outside the galaxy, if the Forerunners eradicated the Precursors how did their bioweapons come in from outside the galaxy? Why did the Precursors simply not leave if they had the means to do so?

The spread from Pheru to Humans occurred due to Humans eating the meat of infected Pheru. Forerunners do not eat meat, thus would not be vulnerable to this method of infection. The infection apparently needs this stage, as it's only after humans become infected that the flood-ish disease becomes virulent, passing through touch primarily. This is also the first point that Flood-style group behaviour is noted.

The Prisoner is in a Precursor prison, not a Forerunner one. This strongly suggests he was imprisoned by the Precursors themselves.
During the Flood assault on the early Human empire (comparible tech to the Forerunner, and extensive holdings) the Prisoner is trapped in time-lock, unless the humans were shockingly inept, the gains the Flood were making would require a coordinating intelligence, and that intelligence could not have been the Prisoner.



Option 2:
The Prisoner is related to the Flood, but not a Precursor, it is simply lying to Didact. (It knew the Humans thought it a Precursor, and that both Humans and Forerunners somewhat revere the Precursors. It was aware the Forerunners had just "ruthlessly destroyed" the Humans who had destroyed the Flood.)
The Flood is genuinely extragalactic, and may not be a bioweapon, the automated ships may simply be acting as 'seed carriers' for the Flood lifeform.

Points in favour:
The Prisoner is aware the Humans initially thought it a Precursor, it is likely aware of the reverance many species hold for the Precursor.
Questions about advanced physics problems, or morality left it confused, if the Precursors were anything like the Forerunners these topics would be of note to any Precursor; The physics ones required to allow the Precursor hypertech, and the moral ones related to the Precursor concept of the Mantle.
The Prisoner is in a Precursor prison, suggesting the Precursors saw fit to imprison it in time.

The Forerunner revere the Precursors, it seems unlikely they slaughtered them all, not impossible by a long shot though.

The extragalactic vector for the Flood-dust ships is explained as they have been travelling for a long time across the void between galaxies. The "clumsy" ship design is a refelection of the Flood's lack of care for asthetics, they are Flood-made.
If the Flood are not a bioweapon then the length of time it takes the Flood strains to arise is not a problem, so long as the Flood genotype will eventually arise from the ashes, possibly the ancient ships were the Flood fleeing something? That would potentially explain the need for fully automated ships holding something that would not die or degrade, the journey was a long one.

Problems:
You have to assume the Prisoner was lying to Didact.
You have to assume the Prisoner was actually imprisoned.
If the Flood are extragalactic, it implies the Prisoner must be too, or have fought them.
If the Flood ships were the equivalent of spores, or seed pods, what did they have to flee that made them rely on automated and somewhat primitive looking ships? Why were they not pursued?
A lot of what the Gravemind says *IS* relatable to the context of the Prisoner, but his description does not match well any known Flood forms.


Option 3:
The Prisoner is NOT a prisoner, and is a Precursor.
The Flood were not originally a Bioweapon, but a Precursor experiment into different life forms, or biological information networks.

Points in favour:
The Precursor structure housing the "Prisoner" bears a strong resemblance to a Forerunner Cryptum. The title of the book may refer to more than just Didact's initial resting place.

The "Prisoner" told Didact the truth, so no need to assume it lied.

The Flood were not intended as a weapon, but were used as an ad-hoc revenge weapon as the Forerunners overthrew the Precursors. Or potentially the Flood were designed as something that could hold Precursor memories, much like a biological version of the Forerunner Domain, but were later perverted into a weapon. Which would explain both the Gravemind's name and outlook on the universe.

Problems:
The Prisoner does appear to be trapped, dependant on outside interference to "wake up". Unlike a Cryptum, time is stopped for the Prisoner, he is not eternally meditating or whatever the Didact was supposed to be doing, he is in some kind of stasis.

The Mantle is a Precursor concept, the Flood are a great big violation of that concept, if the Flood are a biological version of the Domain, something has gone terribly wrong.

Requires the Forerunner to have wiped out the Precursors, this is only ever mentioned by the Prisoner, and has a host of problems with it. Most notably WHY? And why revere them afterwards?
Problem of the ships, and where they came from, and why the Flood's initial vector was so poor as a weapon.

If the Prisoner is a Precursor, why did it so terrify the Humans that spoke to it? If it believed in the Mantle, why unleash the Flood?


Option 4:
The Prisoner *is* a prisoner, and is a Precursor.
The Flood were not originally a Bioweapon, but a Precursor experiment into different life forms, or biological information networks

Points in favour:
The Prisoner may have done something terrible, like turn the Flood into an ad-hoc weapon, this would go against what we know of Precursor beliefs and it would make sense that he was then imprisoned.
Explains it's knowledge of the Flood.
Explains why the Humans may have found it terrifying (Sociopathic/omnicidal tendancies make for very uncomfortable conversations I'd wager) .
If the Prisoner was imprisoned for doing something morally repulsive it could explain its lack of moral concepts.
Potential reason for the Forerunners rising up, if the Prisoner did something damning enough.
Explains the Gravemind's connection to the Prisoner, if they belonged to the Prisoner, the Gravemind may carry his imprint.

Problems
All of the above re the Flood's poor bio-weapon-ness, the seemingly extragalactic ships, and the level of access the Prisoner would have to have to build a species like the Flood, without it's contemporaries taking note and stopping it.

Why didn't the Precursors destroy the Flood when they captured the Prisoner?
Why was the Prisoner left alive by the Precursors, or even the Forerunners?


Conclusions:
The above options are not exhaustive, it could be a combination of any number of these points, or something else entirely, not enough information to be sure.

We can, however, conclude that the Prisoner is not in sole control of the Flood. During the first major outbreak it was still trapped in it's time-prison, and a Gravemind equivalant must have been present for the Flood to do so well against the Humans/San-Shyuum.

It seems likely that the Prisoner at the very least conversed with the Gravemind, as the Gravemind makes references to imprisonment and timelessness far to often to be a coincidence.


*Claps*
+1500 interwebz for you good sir.

  • 05.11.2011 1:43 PM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

Posted by: That Atheist
Posted by: ajw34307
Posted by: That Atheist
And the idea that 05 represents the AIs making him up or whether he was the first successful out of five prototypes is simply a theory, no need to get mad now.


No, the 05 represents his Installation number. This was proven in the Terminals, when 343 converses with Mendicant Bias it comes up with "04 - 343".

Yes but with the release of Cryptum are the terminals even reliable anymore?
Another theory is out of all the rings, 05 was the one he chose as his "command ship", so while the ring is under 2401, the "Admiral' Mendicant bias, rides aboard as well and as such carries its numbering.


Of course the Terminals are still reliable, there's no contradictions between the two sources at all.

  • 05.11.2011 1:45 PM PDT