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  • Subject: The Prisoner and the Gravemind
Subject: The Prisoner and the Gravemind

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: grey101
The "mantle" is a lie people..

How?

  • 05.18.2011 6:30 PM PDT

Perhaps Precursors live on in other galaxies.

  • 05.18.2011 6:38 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: grey101
The "mantle" is a lie people..

How?


The mantle and reclaimer are equivocal and nearly everybody takes it literally. When halsey said the forerunner symbols have simply 3-D translations/interpretations as well as higher dimensional versions i then started to think differently as i could.


The Term "reclaimer" never made sense and never will in the ways "you" claim it is because you must have something in order to reclaim it. And I don't know of anything humanity has had because i doubt they held the "mantle" first, but i will get to that later.

I believe reclaimer means exactly that, humans are meant to reclaim the worlds they lost to the flood and forerunners (since we weren't in the wrong) thus the term. Which is why 343 kept throwing the term to chief more so which i think might be due to him having a Geas (which is pretty much confirmed from halo 1) And which also explains why the SIIIs were marked under a different category due to them coming from a different gene pool.


I would like to state while i love making theories i don't make them without enough backing info. thus nearly everything we have come to the conclusion of cryptum that is based off the last few pages should be considered with salt.

that being said It doesn't make sense for the forerunners to war with the precursors (if they did) and not remember yet remember the mantle being passed on to them. nor does it make sense for them to randomly think they were created by them (even though/if they were). So If the precursors even did have that type of ideology it is most likely lost to time or changed beyond reading as is anything that is passed with time.

In all honesty it is very naive to assume that any type of ideology can be carried perfectly through centuries if not millions and millions of years. The mantle the forerunners now follow was created after they fought the precursors to give reason and rationalize their thirst for power.

Greg bear even says it himself that the forerunners have bent and bend the mantle very badly in an interview on waypoint. they follow a rite to protect all life yet they turned humanity into lemurs the first damn chance they got. and claimed they did so due to this "mantle" and all of you still believe in this divine right?

The librarian herself (which is the oldest known forerunner) states it is nothing more than a fairytale. That came from her, one of the most if respected and prominent forerunners in forerunner history.

Shes right, it is a idea made up to justify the wrong they do.

  • 05.18.2011 6:51 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: grey101
And which also explains why the SIIIs were marked under a different category due to them coming from a different gene pool.

They were marked as an aboriginal sub-species due to the augmentations to their frontal lobe were they not? Gene pool should not really have anything to do with it, otherwise Humanity are not reclaimers, because the SII are above average for genetics.

There is evidence for all Humans being reclaimers. Harvest had glyphs all over it. A normal marine (May have been a S-I... debatable though) was chosen by 343GS before the Chief to retrieve the Index.

Posted by: grey101
that being said It doesn't make sense for the forerunners to war with the precursors (if they did) and not remember yet remember the mantle being passed on to them. nor does it make sense for them to randomly think they were created by them (even though/if they were). So If the precursors even did have that type of ideology it is most likely lost to time or changed beyond reading as is anything that is passed with time.

So either the Precursor/Forerunner War did not happen and the Captive is just messing with peoples heads. The Mantle gets passed down in this case.

Or the war did happen and the Mantle is a lie. They forget the war and forget the true conception of the mantle. So a fairy tale gets fabricated around its birth.

Is this what you are thinking?

Posted by: grey101
In all honesty it is very naive to assume that any type of ideology can be carried perfectly through centuries if not millions and millions of years. The mantle the forerunners now follow was created after they fought the precursors to give reason and rationalize their thirst for power.

Greg bear even says it himself that the forerunners have bent and bend the mantle very badly in an interview on waypoint. they follow a rite to protect all life yet they turned humanity into lemurs the first damn chance they got. and claimed they did so due to this "mantle" and all of you still believe in this divine right?

The librarian herself (which is the oldest known forerunner) states it is nothing more than a fairytale. That came from her, one of the most if respected and prominent forerunners in forerunner history.

Shes right, it is a idea made up to justify the wrong they do.

It is an interesting idea. It would not surprise me if it was true, or near enough, given the Forerunner's conduct.

  • 05.18.2011 7:45 PM PDT

I like the idea that the mantle could be a lie to promote the wrong the Forerunners did, it's true that it makes no sense that they would remember a mantle being passed down but no war. This is also supported by the fact that the Forerunners decimated the Precursor population (if the prisoner is to be believed). I for one will continue to believe the prisoner is a Precursor, and that the Forerunners did something to them. Only because I think the writers want a reason to explore this more rather than write something cool and then go nowhere with it.

I also like the idea that the precursor's could be an 'evil' race in the sense that they had to be wiped out by the Forerunners, it runs really smoothly with them being a race that could create the flood. This also fits with the idea that the Flood could be in many, many galaxies and is the information causing the Prehistoric humans to freak out. The Precursor/Forerunner war could have been epochs ago, leaving ample time for them to spread out and conquer.

  • 05.25.2011 3:41 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: grey101
And which also explains why the SIIIs were marked under a different category due to them coming from a different gene pool.

They were marked as an aboriginal sub-species due to the augmentations to their frontal lobe were they not? Gene pool should not really have anything to do with it, otherwise Humanity are not reclaimers, because the SII are above average for genetics.

There is evidence for all Humans being reclaimers. Harvest had glyphs all over it. A normal marine (May have been a S-I... debatable though) was chosen by 343GS before the Chief to retrieve the Index.

Posted by: grey101
that being said It doesn't make sense for the forerunners to war with the precursors (if they did) and not remember yet remember the mantle being passed on to them. nor does it make sense for them to randomly think they were created by them (even though/if they were). So If the precursors even did have that type of ideology it is most likely lost to time or changed beyond reading as is anything that is passed with time.

So either the Precursor/Forerunner War did not happen and the Captive is just messing with peoples heads. The Mantle gets passed down in this case.

Or the war did happen and the Mantle is a lie. They forget the war and forget the true conception of the mantle. So a fairy tale gets fabricated around its birth.

Is this what you are thinking?



I have a branch off theroy that "old" humanity were naturally spartans or had there genes permanently changed like the SIIs. This is why i link genetics into the idea along with the fact it was the assembly that started the project to begin with.

That is what i am thinking. The mantle would still be false even if he isn't telling the truth, as a said it is nearly impossible to carry an ideology perfectly through millions of years let alone an alien one.


It is a lie regardless.

  • 05.25.2011 4:39 AM PDT


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: grey101
The "mantle" is a lie people..

How?


The mantle and reclaimer are equivocal and nearly everybody takes it literally. When halsey said the forerunner symbols have simply 3-D translations/interpretations as well as higher dimensional versions i then started to think differently as i could.


The Term "reclaimer" never made sense and never will in the ways "you" claim it is because you must have something in order to reclaim it. And I don't know of anything humanity has had because i doubt they held the "mantle" first, but i will get to that later.

I believe reclaimer means exactly that, humans are meant to reclaim the worlds they lost to the flood and forerunners (since we weren't in the wrong) thus the term. Which is why 343 kept throwing the term to chief more so which i think might be due to him having a Geas (which is pretty much confirmed from halo 1) And which also explains why the SIIIs were marked under a different category due to them coming from a different gene pool.


I would like to state while i love making theories i don't make them without enough backing info. thus nearly everything we have come to the conclusion of cryptum that is based off the last few pages should be considered with salt.

that being said It doesn't make sense for the forerunners to war with the precursors (if they did) and not remember yet remember the mantle being passed on to them. nor does it make sense for them to randomly think they were created by them (even though/if they were). So If the precursors even did have that type of ideology it is most likely lost to time or changed beyond reading as is anything that is passed with time.

In all honesty it is very naive to assume that any type of ideology can be carried perfectly through centuries if not millions and millions of years. The mantle the forerunners now follow was created after they fought the precursors to give reason and rationalize their thirst for power.

Greg bear even says it himself that the forerunners have bent and bend the mantle very badly in an interview on waypoint. they follow a rite to protect all life yet they turned humanity into lemurs the first damn chance they got. and claimed they did so due to this "mantle" and all of you still believe in this divine right?

The librarian herself (which is the oldest known forerunner) states it is nothing more than a fairytale. That came from her, one of the most if respected and prominent forerunners in forerunner history.

Shes right, it is a idea made up to justify the wrong they do.


I'm not against what you're saying really, I agree that the Mantel is probably not all that we think it is. However I don't think Reclaimer means just what you're saying it does, that may indeed be part of it. Your interpretation is much too simple, and I don't think it's what 343i would do, not by itself at least. You don't have to have possessed something before in order to reclaim it, if you are declared the heir of something placed in a safe deposit or the bank, even though it was not yours before when you go to take you are reclaiming it. And why would the Forerunners make it so only Humanity could interface with the Halo array and a "Reclaimer" must be sought out before activation can happen if the term Reclaimer simply meant reclaiming Humanities' old worlds?

As for the SIIIs and why the Onyx Sentinels labled them hostiles, I thought that was because Ash (I think it was him I don't really remember the names too well) failed to deliver the proper response or something like that and it thus deemed them all hostile.

Now on to the issue of the Mantel.
I agree that it is probably not quite the same as it was under Precursor theology, but that does not mean it was something made up by the Forerunners.

I don't know about that, there are many beliefs that have remained constant for quite some time, I would list Christianity and Islam, but they aren't quite old enough to fit the bill of what you're describing. The one that fits best is Judaism, it is one of the oldest religions on Earth and has remained completely unchanged for who knows how long now, it's been exactly the same since its founding (whenever that was), I don't see why the Mantel couldn't also fit this bill. I don't think there is enough evidence to suggest that the concept of the Mantel was created to justify war with the Precursors, but you claim is somewhat accurate, there will always be people abuse a belief system to gain power or to justify their actions (such as Faber the Master Builder), but the actions of few do not attest to the origins of a belief system or the beliefs of the many either.

And to put this line "Greg bear even says it himself that the forerunners have bent and bend the mantle very badly in an interview on waypoint. they follow a rite to protect all life yet they turned humanity into lemurs the first damn chance they got. and claimed they did so due to this "mantle" and all of you still believe in this divine right?" into context. Greg was talking about the Halo Array and how firing it will jive with the Mantel, he was saying it will be bent in order to justify eliminating all life, not that it [ihas[/i] been bent to justify everything the Forerunners have done during Cryptum and the eras before it.

Where did the Librarian say that? In Cryptum or in the Terminals? I can't really remember which, I want to say the Terminals. Again, the beliefs of one, no matter how influential and respected, does not make it truth, I'm not trying to start a flame war over religion, but Halsey is an atheist and her position is much the same amongst Humanity as the Librarian's was amongst the Forerunners, but that does not mean that Religion is false (it might be in Halo's story universe due to the way things have kinda shaped up, but it's still a possibility since we don't know anything about the Precursor time period or their beliefs).

  • 05.25.2011 2:44 PM PDT

gamertag : firedune22

avid forger, love vehicle gameplay

I believe that the prisoner had something else in mind when answering "our solution is at hand". Cryptum states that humanity used the prisoner as a kind of oracle, to tell the future. Since the prisoner ( and apparently all precursors) had a much deeper understanding of the universe (would explain how the prisoner could pedict the future), it was referring to something else, some grander plan that would be put into motion. This obviously is implied that the forerunner race would soon be destroyed, but i think that he is referring to Bornstellar. There are still two more books to be published, and the story will explain itself ath the end.
Some supporting evidence is the terminals in Halo 3. All of them. The diadect is apparently writing to the librarian, but we all know that the didact "inhabits" Bornstellar's mind and has the ability to control his movements. It is possible that bornstellar is the CAUSE of the firing of the halos,(and in turn the destuction of all sentient life in the galaxy) and that the prisoner is refering to bornstellar and how he may be the part of the prisoner's plan.

  • 05.25.2011 5:08 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: grey101

Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: grey101
The "mantle" is a lie people..

How?


The mantle and reclaimer are equivocal and nearly everybody takes it literally. When halsey said the forerunner symbols have simply 3-D translations/interpretations as well as higher dimensional versions i then started to think differently as i could.


The Term "reclaimer" never made sense and never will in the ways "you" claim it is because you must have something in order to reclaim it. And I don't know of anything humanity has had because i doubt they held the "mantle" first, but i will get to that later.

I believe reclaimer means exactly that, humans are meant to reclaim the worlds they lost to the flood and forerunners (since we weren't in the wrong) thus the term. Which is why 343 kept throwing the term to chief more so which i think might be due to him having a Geas (which is pretty much confirmed from halo 1) And which also explains why the SIIIs were marked under a different category due to them coming from a different gene pool.


I would like to state while i love making theories i don't make them without enough backing info. thus nearly everything we have come to the conclusion of cryptum that is based off the last few pages should be considered with salt.

that being said It doesn't make sense for the forerunners to war with the precursors (if they did) and not remember yet remember the mantle being passed on to them. nor does it make sense for them to randomly think they were created by them (even though/if they were). So If the precursors even did have that type of ideology it is most likely lost to time or changed beyond reading as is anything that is passed with time.

In all honesty it is very naive to assume that any type of ideology can be carried perfectly through centuries if not millions and millions of years. The mantle the forerunners now follow was created after they fought the precursors to give reason and rationalize their thirst for power.

Greg bear even says it himself that the forerunners have bent and bend the mantle very badly in an interview on waypoint. they follow a rite to protect all life yet they turned humanity into lemurs the first damn chance they got. and claimed they did so due to this "mantle" and all of you still believe in this divine right?

The librarian herself (which is the oldest known forerunner) states it is nothing more than a fairytale. That came from her, one of the most if respected and prominent forerunners in forerunner history.

Shes right, it is a idea made up to justify the wrong they do.


I'm not against what you're saying really, I agree that the Mantel is probably not all that we think it is. However I don't think Reclaimer means just what you're saying it does, that may indeed be part of it. Your interpretation is much too simple, and I don't think it's what 343i would do, not by itself at least. You don't have to have possessed something before in order to reclaim it, if you are declared the heir of something placed in a safe deposit or the bank, even though it was not yours before when you go to take you are reclaiming it. And why would the Forerunners make it so only Humanity could interface with the Halo array and a "Reclaimer" must be sought out before activation can happen if the term Reclaimer simply meant reclaiming Humanities' old worlds?

As for the SIIIs and why the Onyx Sentinels labled them hostiles, I thought that was because Ash (I think it was him I don't really remember the names too well) failed to deliver the proper response or something like that and it thus deemed them all hostile.

Now on to the issue of the Mantel.
I agree that it is probably not quite the same as it was under Precursor theology, but that does not mean it was something made up by the Forerunners.

I don't know about that, there are many beliefs that have remained constant for quite some time, I would list Christianity and Islam, but they aren't quite old enough to fit the bill of what you're describing. The one that fits best is Judaism, it is one of the oldest religions on Earth and has remained completely unchanged for who knows how long now, it's been exactly the same since its founding (whenever that was), I don't see why the Mantel couldn't also fit this bill. I don't think there is enough evidence to suggest that the concept of the Mantel was created to justify war with the Precursors, but you claim is somewhat accurate, there will always be people abuse a belief system to gain power or to justify their actions (such as Faber the Master Builder), but the actions of few do not attest to the origins of a belief system or the beliefs of the many either.

And to put this line "Greg bear even says it himself that the forerunners have bent and bend the mantle very badly in an interview on waypoint. they follow a rite to protect all life yet they turned humanity into lemurs the first damn chance they got. and claimed they did so due to this "mantle" and all of you still believe in this divine right?" into context. Greg was talking about the Halo Array and how firing it will jive with the Mantel, he was saying it will be bent in order to justify eliminating all life, not that it [ihas[/i] been bent to justify everything the Forerunners have done during Cryptum and the eras before it.

Where did the Librarian say that? In Cryptum or in the Terminals? I can't really remember which, I want to say the Terminals. Again, the beliefs of one, no matter how influential and respected, does not make it truth, I'm not trying to start a flame war over religion, but Halsey is an atheist and her position is much the same amongst Humanity as the Librarian's was amongst the Forerunners, but that does not mean that Religion is false (it might be in Halo's story universe due to the way things have kinda shaped up, but it's still a possibility since we don't know anything about the Precursor time period or their beliefs).



As simple as it is it isn't "simple" it is more of a revelation of the forerunners knowing and admitting that they were wrong. Providing a sense of awe.

there have been several occasions were it was us the fans that made up entire theories and ideas that were all complex and the actually was simple that we threw away because it wasn't dramatic enough. The point of this to think outside of what everybody else has been doing for the last 10 years. Something i have been known to excel at, hence this revelation.

Worst examples you could have given. Both have been twisted beyond what they were intended for not to mention that people only selectivly read certain parts of the books and not the whole think.

Such as people trying to predict when the world will end despite the bible saying that the date can not be predicted nor will it be known.

Any other example is "god" is clearly stated not to be "of this dimension" and can not be perceived by us. Yet people claim to see him all the time.


Religion and ideas will always be subjected to interpretation and taken far too literally. and when this is done you have extremist such as the forerunners and the covenant.


I know what he said hence it being an example. The entire firing the array and the events that led up to it are a representation of exactly how they went against the whole idea of the mantle.

It was in the terminals and that comparison doesn't fit seeing how there were only 3 people (including her) that were in the librarians spot. while in the whole humanity there have been many many and many halseys.



Posted by: firedune
I believe that the prisoner had something else in mind when answering "our solution is at hand". Cryptum states that humanity used the prisoner as a kind of oracle, to tell the future. Since the prisoner ( and apparently all precursors) had a much deeper understanding of the universe (would explain how the prisoner could pedict the future), it was referring to something else, some grander plan that would be put into motion. This obviously is implied that the forerunner race would soon be destroyed, but i think that he is referring to Bornstellar. There are still two more books to be published, and the story will explain itself ath the end.
Some supporting evidence is the terminals in Halo 3. All of them. The diadect is apparently writing to the librarian, but we all know that the didact "inhabits" Bornstellar's mind and has the ability to control his movements. It is possible that bornstellar is the CAUSE of the firing of the halos,(and in turn the destuction of all sentient life in the galaxy) and that the prisoner is refering to bornstellar and how he may be the part of the prisoner's plan.


bornsteller wasn't strong enough to balance out his mind with the didact's implants which caused him to be fully taken over.

And you are getting confused. It was Didact that talked to the prisoner and it was bornsteller that heard (the not so forerunner voice i add) speak of their time coming to an end during the domain.

[Edited on 05.25.2011 5:53 PM PDT]

  • 05.25.2011 5:50 PM PDT

Ok look.

2401 penitent tangent is the monitor of 05. The monitors were named in powers of 7. 343 is 7^3, 2401 is 7^4 and so on, so 032 does not fit into this sequence, it is not even a power of 7. And frankly, monitoring an installation was beneath a Contender class AI like Bias, of which there were only ever 2 built by the forerunner, the second one built just to counter the first one when it went bad. Bias had much bigger fish to fry than babysitting a ring......though its worth noting that the rings didnt seem to have monitors assigned to them until well after the events in Cryptum, iirc they wernt even terraformed and landscaped yet which would also come later at the insistence of the Librarian. So its possible Bias had commandeered 05 at one point, but he was never its monitor.

Now the gravemind. Its pretty obvious to me that the contemporary Gravemind both is and is not the one referred to in the forerunner and even precursor times. The answer is genetic memory. Physically, they are different beings made up of different victims, but the current gravemind has every scrap of knowledge and memory from the ancient one, so in effect its the same conciousness in a new physical body. The conciousness had probably slept for 100,000 years, locked away in the genetic coding of the flood super cell samples kept on the rings.

And the prisoner. I think the prisoner is a Precurser. I also think it is the Gravemind. It is one and the same.

The precurser fought a savage war against the forerunner which were apparently their own creation (makes what bias did pretty ironic eh) and they were losing. The forerunner nearly wiped them out, drastic measures were called for. I think the forerunner won the war and the remaining precursers took their leave of this galaxy to plan their response in the void........where they changed their own physiology pretty drastically into what they are today. I dont really know what the powder ships thing was all about though that seemed strange to me.

  • 05.25.2011 11:04 PM PDT
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Talk to the Soul | ~B.B. | Know Your Duardo |  | Hero | ISFJ | 77135 | 94371

"It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me."

Don't Gravemind's memories pass on to one another? I thought when one died and another replaced him, the previous' memories would transfer over...or even consciousness.

  • 05.25.2011 11:25 PM PDT

The Forerunner, the Great Journey, and Heaven Theory

[Announcement Trailer] Halo: Forerunner

Posted by: Agustus
I lol'd at the absurd miscommunication that occurs whenever dibbs post something. Perhaps his brain is so highly evolved that he can no longer clearly communicate with lesser life forms, even among his own species.

Posted by: OrderedComaI have to agree with essentially everything in this post. Just for further clarification (and most likely a summery of Coma's statements)...
The Term "reclaimer" never made sense and never will in the ways "you" claim it is because you must have something in order to reclaim it. And I don't know of anything humanity has had because i doubt they held the "mantle" first, but i will get to that later.Debating semantics is never a good thing to do (I generally find that if I have to resort to debating semantics the I'm already wrong). Reclamation doesn't necessarily involving taking back something you previously owned. Reclaiming honor (or love, or motivation) involves "reclaiming" an existential concept; can you be said to own something that isn't corporeal? In the case of the Forerunner bequeathing a title (reclaimer) and/or a purpose (upholding the Mantle) to humanity, it would be the same as inheriting something from a deceased family member. You may not necessarily want it, and you may not have owned it in the first place, but it has been given to you (to reclaim).
I believe reclaimer means exactly that, humans are meant to reclaim the worlds they lost to the flood and forerunners (since we weren't in the wrong) thus the term. Which is why 343 kept throwing the term to chief more so which i think might be due to him having a Geas (which is pretty much confirmed from halo 1) And which also explains why the SIIIs were marked under a different category due to them coming from a different gene pool. I think this just a small part of the whole. It seems that humanity by being dubbed "Reclaimers" is meant to reclaim their past greatness. That includes the worlds they previously inhabited, yes, but that also includes the Forerunner technology that was left behind (since we are the only ones that can use it). Additionally, I believe it's safe to assume that we are also reclaiming the Political/Economic/Religious belief known as the Mantle. In order for a society to claim stewardship of the galaxy, there must at least be some sort of justification and a set of guidelines which outline how they will operate. The Mantle provides that philosophy, and I believe that in addition to reclaiming the technology, the Forerunner expected us to reclaim the ideology of the Mantle as well, seeing as how you must have one in order to responsibly use the other.
In all honesty it is very naive to assume that any type of ideology can be carried perfectly through centuries if not millions and millions of years. The mantle the forerunners now follow was created after they fought the precursors to give reason and rationalize their thirst for power.

Greg bear even says it himself that the forerunners have bent and bend the mantle very badly in an interview on waypoint. they follow a rite to protect all life yet they turned humanity into lemurs the first damn chance they got. and claimed they did so due to this "mantle" and all of you still believe in this divine right?

The librarian herself (which is the oldest known forerunner) states it is nothing more than a fairytale. That came from her, one of the most if respected and prominent forerunners in forerunner history.
And now we must venture into religious discussion. Assuming that the Mantle is an ideology for how a civilization should operate (which I believe it's safe to assume it is), it incorporates economic, religious, and political philosophy all into one. Just like all of these, then, the Mantle is an attempt at realizing a perfectly just society. The U.S. tried to do that politically with the Constitution, religions try to to it with the laws present in their holy texts, economists try to do with with their models (Rawls, Friedmen, Smith, Bentham, etc.). All of these are ideals taken to their natural end; what a perfect humanity should be capable of achieving. But the thing is humanity isn't perfect. There is corruption despite the best intentions present in U.S. law, religious institutions have been bastions of intolerance and corruption for as long as they have been around, economists at the World Bank have suggested outsourcing pollution to Africa because they would be more willing to deal with it in exchange for money than richer countries (justified using an economic model that was created with the intentions of promoting justice...) The Forerunners failed in regards to the Mantle because no living thing can live up to standards at all times. This doesn't prove that the Mantle is a fairy tale or a false pretense that can be tweaked to justify any behavior; rather that those operating under it are not perfect beings and they are certainly capable of disastrous flaws. The Mantle and the ideas which led to it's creation were pure (they had to be); those operating under it are not (But that's the point isn't it? To be worthy protectors one must strive to uphold the Mantle to the best of one's ability. The Forerunner failed, so it must then be passed on to another worthy candidate.)

  • 05.25.2011 11:59 PM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Fatal Factor
Ok look.

2401 penitent tangent is the monitor of 05. The monitors were named in powers of 7. 343 is 7^3, 2401 is 7^4 and so on, so 032 does not fit into this sequence, it is not even a power of 7. And frankly, monitoring an installation was beneath a Contender class AI like Bias, of which there were only ever 2 built by the forerunner, the second one built just to counter the first one when it went bad. Bias had much bigger fish to fry than babysitting a ring......


Now the gravemind. Its pretty obvious to me that the contemporary Gravemind both is and is not the one referred to in the forerunner and even precursor times. The answer is genetic memory. Physically, they are different beings made up of different victims, but the current gravemind has every scrap of knowledge and memory from the ancient one, so in effect its the same conciousness in a new physical body. The conciousness had probably slept for 100,000 years, locked away in the genetic coding of the flood super cell samples kept on the rings.


The precurser fought a savage war against the forerunner which were apparently their own creation (makes what bias did pretty ironic eh) and they were losing. The forerunner nearly wiped them out, drastic measures were called for. I think the forerunner won the war and the remaining precursers took their leave of this galaxy to plan their response in the void........where they changed their own physiology pretty drastically into what they are today. I dont really know what the powder ships thing was all about though that seemed strange to me.


did you understand cryptum?


MB was part of a contingency plan in which if something drastic happened he would take full control of the forerunner empire. full control.

Didact's imprint clearly stated that. MB was also in charge of testing the installations and it is possible the monitors don't come until the second batch of rings are deployed.
And i read cryptum 3 rimes now, there were more than 1 offender class AI.


Genetic memory yes yes i remember all of use thinking that an exact 4 years ago, but the idea doesn't add up any more.

We [u]assumed[/i] that a gravemind had be killed during the firing of the array and that the halo 2 one was a different one. But it is obvious that this is the same gravemind from the past. Not to mention we have 3 instances of "proto graveminds" forming while this one is alive, so genetic memory wouldn't hold up seeing how the first one wasn't killed and we don't know of the humans fighting one.
I don't think this 'gravemind" is a natural form of the flood.


Meh if thats what you think thats you but i don't think so. I think this is probably a precursor captured by the forerunners during the war or something completely different yet related.



Posted by: Duardo
Don't Gravemind's memories pass on to one another? I thought when one died and another replaced him, the previous' memories would transfer over...or even consciousness.


I understand because we all thought that years ago. but now there isn't any evidence of a gravemind being killed.

Posted by: dibbs089

I believe reclaimer means exactly that, humans are meant to reclaim the worlds they lost to the flood and forerunners (since we weren't in the wrong) thus the term. Which is why 343 kept throwing the term to chief more so which i think might be due to him having a Geas (which is pretty much confirmed from halo 1) And which also explains why the SIIIs were marked under a different category due to them coming from a different gene pool.

I think this just a small part of the whole. It seems that humanity by being dubbed "Reclaimers" is meant to reclaim their past greatness. That includes the worlds they previously inhabited, yes, but that also includes the Forerunner technology that was left behind (since we are the only ones that can use it). Additionally, I believe it's safe to assume that we are also reclaiming the Political/Economic/Religious belief known as the Mantle. In order for a society to claim stewardship of the galaxy, there must at least be some sort of justification and a set of guidelines which outline how they will operate. The Mantle provides that philosophy, and I believe that in addition to reclaiming the technology, the Forerunner expected us to reclaim the ideology of the Mantle as well, seeing as how you must have one in order to responsibly use the other.
In all honesty it is very naive to assume that any type of ideology can be carried perfectly through centuries if not millions and millions of years. The mantle the forerunners now follow was created after they fought the precursors to give reason and rationalize their thirst for power.

Greg bear even says it himself that the forerunners have bent and bend the mantle very badly in an interview on waypoint. they follow a rite to protect all life yet they turned humanity into lemurs the first damn chance they got. and claimed they did so due to this "mantle" and all of you still believe in this divine right?

The librarian herself (which is the oldest known forerunner) states it is nothing more than a fairytale. That came from her, one of the most if respected and prominent forerunners in forerunner history.

The Forerunner failed, so it must then be passed on to another worthy candidate.)



I am willing to accept that my idea is part of the scheme if not the whole point. Yes i do believe the whole point of being "reclaimers" is humanity to get back worlds lost to them by the flood and forerunners. I think the forerunners living there tech behind was suppose to help get them back on track, but the assembly doesn't want humanity to develop with forerunner tech (think of the Geth in Mass effect), they want them to get back to their prowess themselves.

A point i didn't state in this thread, whatever the original mantle was i think it was humanity that got/developed it in the first place. Cryptum threw it in how humanity thought they were the true inheritors of the mantle which is why they wouldn't succumb to forerunner control. Seeing how they were the ones to push back the flood and seeing how they didn't act as brutish as the forerunners claim or the forerunners themselves i believe it.

For any naruto fans i think it is no different than the sage of the six paths and for those who aren't i'll give a quick summery.

long long ago a priest a sage defeated the most powerful being in the world, the ten tailed beast. He then split the beast chakra into 9 other forms and sealed the body into the earth and hurled it into space forming the moon.

As his death approached the sage had to chose a successor to his ways and had to pick which son would bring peace to the world. The older brother who inherited the sages eyes believed that peace should be brought by power. while the younger brother who inherited the sages body believed that peace should be brought by love.

In the end the Sage picked the younger brother to surpass him, agreeing that love should be the guidline for peace. Angry at this the older brother challenged the younger for the right he though was his and the cycle of hated began.

Every generation descendants of the two would always be called to fight each other, and each time despite the older brother being stronger than the younger the younger always won.



Hopefully you can see where i am getting at.

I think that humanity was the original inheritors of the original mantle. the forerunners were angry about this and this is the grudge they have held for eons.

  • 05.26.2011 4:39 AM PDT

The Forerunner, the Great Journey, and Heaven Theory

[Announcement Trailer] Halo: Forerunner

Posted by: Agustus
I lol'd at the absurd miscommunication that occurs whenever dibbs post something. Perhaps his brain is so highly evolved that he can no longer clearly communicate with lesser life forms, even among his own species.

Posted by: grey101
I think that humanity was the original inheritors of the original mantle. the forerunners were angry about this and this is the grudge they have held for eons.
Two things.

One, if the Mantle is an ideology (what I believe it to be) than two separate species claiming to represent it at the same time means two things. First, either a society, once it becomes powerful enough to exert it's influence on the galaxy at large, just spontaneously realizes the proper way of governing the galaxy (the Mantle). Or, there was a greater species who either created or inherited the ideology and passed it down to the two other species (in this case possibly the Precursor).

Two, if the Mantle is an ideology, then both the Forerunner and the Humans are free to claim it as their own and put it into practice. If there was a disagreement between the two in this regard (which I'm not entirely sure there was; I don't know if the war was caused by jealousy over who was the Precursor's favorite son or simply just two powerful species vying for dominance) it would have to be over who could best uphold the ideals of the Mantle. (You can't fight over who has claim to an ideology since it is simply a set of beliefs which anyone can choose to follow, but you can fight over who is best prepared to actually carry out those beliefs). In essence, if they were fighting about this issue, they weren't fighting over "who got the Mantle" but rather over who is best prepared to carry out it's mandates (which of course begs the question, why couldn't they both just uphold it; I imagine tolerance and respect are two big points within the Mantle - ironic that if they fight over who is more prepared to enforce it they already are violating it's principles).

[Edited on 05.26.2011 12:50 PM PDT]

  • 05.26.2011 12:50 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: dibbs089
Posted by: grey101
I think that humanity was the original inheritors of the original mantle. the forerunners were angry about this and this is the grudge they have held for eons.
Two things.

the two other species (in this case possibly the Precursor).

Two, if the Mantle is an ideology, then both the Forerunner and the Humans are free to claim it as their own and put it into practice. If there was a disagreement between the two in this regard (which I'm not entirely sure there was; I don't know if the war was caused by jealousy over who was the Precursor's favorite son or simply just two powerful species vying for dominance) it would have to be over who could best uphold the ideals of the Mantle. (You can't fight over who has claim to an ideology since it is simply a set of beliefs which anyone can choose to follow, but you can fight over who is best prepared to actually carry out those beliefs). In essence, if they were fighting about this issue, they weren't fighting over "who got the Mantle" but rather over who is best prepared to carry out it's mandates (which of course begs the question, why couldn't they both just uphold it; I imagine tolerance and respect are two big points within the Mantle - ironic that if they fight over who is more prepared to enforce it they already are violating it's principles).


We are inclined to believe that the precursors created the forerunners and in turn they might have created humanity. Which is why i brought a naruto relation into.
Yes while "technically" they are both free to claim it, if the precursors thought one was more suitable then he is the true inheritor. Which in turn the other would get jealous because (as you stated) they might think they are better fit for the role.

you pretty much said everything i said :/

  • 05.26.2011 5:45 PM PDT

The Forerunner, the Great Journey, and Heaven Theory

[Announcement Trailer] Halo: Forerunner

Posted by: Agustus
I lol'd at the absurd miscommunication that occurs whenever dibbs post something. Perhaps his brain is so highly evolved that he can no longer clearly communicate with lesser life forms, even among his own species.

Posted by: grey101
you pretty much said everything i said :/
Just clarifying.

I still don't believe they were fighting over who were the heirs to the Mantle. It seemed clear from Cryptum that the war was fought because humans were conquering new territory (in essence killing other species) in order to escape from the Flood. This could of course all be a pretense for a power play on the Forerunner's part; to add some legitimacy to them devolving a species to the point where it can't possibly contest their power. Anyway, I don't recall any evidence of them going to war over jealousy regarding the Mantle.

  • 05.26.2011 6:17 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: dibbs089
Posted by: grey101
you pretty much said everything i said :/
Just clarifying.

I still don't believe they were fighting over who were the heirs to the Mantle. It seemed clear from Cryptum that the war was fought because humans were conquering new territory (in essence killing other species) in order to escape from the Flood. This could of course all be a pretense for a power play on the Forerunner's part; to add some legitimacy to them devolving a species to the point where it can't possibly contest their power. Anyway, I don't recall any evidence of them going to war over jealousy regarding the Mantle.


huh? The mantle was slightly involved in that fight, though i was talking about the ideology as a whole.

you came in at the middle, start from the top of the page and read everything.

  • 05.26.2011 6:30 PM PDT

Posted by: Grey101
As simple as it is it isn't "simple" it is more of a revelation of the forerunners knowing and admitting that they were wrong. Providing a sense of awe.

there have been several occasions were it was us the fans that made up entire theories and ideas that were all complex and the actually was simple that we threw away because it wasn't dramatic enough. The point of this to think outside of what everybody else has been doing for the last 10 years. Something i have been known to excel at, hence this revelation.

Worst examples you could have given. Both have been twisted beyond what they were intended for not to mention that people only selectivly read certain parts of the books and not the whole think.

Such as people trying to predict when the world will end despite the bible saying that the date can not be predicted nor will it be known.

Any other example is "god" is clearly stated not to be "of this dimension" and can not be perceived by us. Yet people claim to see him all the time.


Religion and ideas will always be subjected to interpretation and taken far too literally. and when this is done you have extremist such as the forerunners and the covenant.


I know what he said hence it being an example. The entire firing the array and the events that led up to it are a representation of exactly how they went against the whole idea of the mantle.

It was in the terminals and that comparison doesn't fit seeing how there were only 3 people (including her) that were in the librarians spot. while in the whole humanity there have been many many and many halseys.


I don't disagree that being part of the meaning meant by Reclaimer, I think it makes perfect sense and is a good point, but I don't think that's all Reclaimer is meant to mean. In my experiences with twist revelations from Bungie they have never outright thrown anything out, it has merely been not what we were expecting, there probably is going to be much more to term Reclaimer than what we've all thought for years (your idea might be part of it), but they're not going to completely throw it out and make it nothing we've thought, that's not like them at all.

You can make that case for Christianity, but as far as I know Judaism has never been subjected to such absurdities as its daughter religion has been. And as I said before, the interpretations made by few of a system of beliefs do not make the beliefs itself false. There is no evidence yet that the Mantel is false, and I do not think that is something Bungie will do.

  • 05.26.2011 6:44 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: dibbs089
This could of course all be a pretense for a power play on the Forerunner's part; to add some legitimacy to them devolving a species to the point where it can't possibly contest their power. Anyway, I don't recall any evidence of them going to war over jealousy regarding the Mantle.

I have thought for a while that the act of keeping Humanity in such a state despite knowing the truth about the situation - that Humanity may not at all have been an innately bad race, but just pushed to breaking point by the Flood - as an indication that the Forerunner had some sort of ulterior motive.

The Mantle probably had some part but not all. The Forerunners knew about Humanity's claim for a while, branding it Heresy. If it was solely about the Mantle then war would have happened before the Flood. I think the incident with Humanity conquering worlds was the time for the Forerunner to strike, giving them legitimacy like you say, with the Mantle being part of the motivation. The other part I suspect is the idea that the Forerunner simply did not like something that they could not control. The Terminals describe them as stripping their protectorates of all capacity for self defence. Sounds a lot like a total control freak.

That being said, they did not want to just control Humanity, they wanted it completely annihilated. If I remember right, it was the Librarian who managed to save an unknown low number before the Forerunners could finish the job. I think I remember the Didact saying something along the lines not knowing why she bothered to save them. Of course I could be wrong/misinterpreting.

  • 05.26.2011 6:46 PM PDT

The Forerunner, the Great Journey, and Heaven Theory

[Announcement Trailer] Halo: Forerunner

Posted by: Agustus
I lol'd at the absurd miscommunication that occurs whenever dibbs post something. Perhaps his brain is so highly evolved that he can no longer clearly communicate with lesser life forms, even among his own species.

Posted by: grey101What I'm saying is that I don't believe this is a true statement I think that humanity was the original inheritors of the original mantle. the forerunners were angry about this and this is the grudge they have held for eons. and that I would like to see what evidence you are using to base you claims upon (page numbers and the like are unnecessary...I just don't recall any indication of humanity having sole claim to the Mantle and the Forerunner being angry about it because, as I have said before, the Mantle seems to be something they can both own/uphold simultaneously).

  • 05.26.2011 7:07 PM PDT

Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien.
Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar.
tenn' Ambar-metta!

I say wait for the next part of the book to know ;D but I believe the prisioner it's a Gravemind.

  • 05.26.2011 9:52 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: dibbs089
Posted by: grey101What I'm saying is that I don't believe this is a true statement I think that humanity was the original inheritors of the original mantle. the forerunners were angry about this and this is the grudge they have held for eons. and that I would like to see what evidence you are using to base you claims upon (page numbers and the like are unnecessary...I just don't recall any indication of humanity having sole claim to the Mantle and the Forerunner being angry about it because, as I have said before, the Mantle seems to be something they can both own/uphold simultaneously).


Dibbs you are reading this all wrong, the only thing i am station to be true is that the mantle that the forerunners use is false.


Everything else is my theroy that i haven't told many until now.


And when i am talking about the two fighting i am talking about the ancient versions of them fighting over the mantle not the current ones, you really need to read the entire page.

[Edited on 05.27.2011 4:43 AM PDT]

  • 05.27.2011 4:42 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: OrderedComa
Posted by: Grey101
As simple as it is it isn't "simple" it is more of a revelation of the forerunners knowing and admitting that they were wrong. Providing a sense of awe.

there have been several occasions were it was us the fans that made up entire theories and ideas that were all complex and the actually was simple that we threw away because it wasn't dramatic enough. The point of this to think outside of what everybody else has been doing for the last 10 years. Something i have been known to excel at, hence this revelation.

Worst examples you could have given. Both have been twisted beyond what they were intended for not to mention that people only selectivly read certain parts of the books and not the whole think.

Such as people trying to predict when the world will end despite the bible saying that the date can not be predicted nor will it be known.

Any other example is "god" is clearly stated not to be "of this dimension" and can not be perceived by us. Yet people claim to see him all the time.


Religion and ideas will always be subjected to interpretation and taken far too literally. and when this is done you have extremist such as the forerunners and the covenant.


I know what he said hence it being an example. The entire firing the array and the events that led up to it are a representation of exactly how they went against the whole idea of the mantle.

It was in the terminals and that comparison doesn't fit seeing how there were only 3 people (including her) that were in the librarians spot. while in the whole humanity there have been many many and many halseys.


I don't disagree that being part of the meaning meant by Reclaimer, I think it makes perfect sense and is a good point, but I don't think that's all Reclaimer is meant to mean. In my experiences with twist revelations from Bungie they have never outright thrown anything out, it has merely been not what we were expecting, there probably is going to be much more to term Reclaimer than what we've all thought for years (your idea might be part of it), but they're not going to completely throw it out and make it nothing we've thought, that's not like them at all.




Bungie no longer has control over halo (which i know you know) thus the word bungie isn't relevant.

And not to be a dick but if you honestly said that then you obviously are new to the haloverse because cryptum completely threw everything we thought out of the window and twisted it. Which is why i am thinking more logically and abstractly with my ideas now.

  • 05.27.2011 4:47 AM PDT


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: OrderedComa
Posted by: Grey101
As simple as it is it isn't "simple" it is more of a revelation of the forerunners knowing and admitting that they were wrong. Providing a sense of awe.

there have been several occasions were it was us the fans that made up entire theories and ideas that were all complex and the actually was simple that we threw away because it wasn't dramatic enough. The point of this to think outside of what everybody else has been doing for the last 10 years. Something i have been known to excel at, hence this revelation.

Worst examples you could have given. Both have been twisted beyond what they were intended for not to mention that people only selectivly read certain parts of the books and not the whole think.

Such as people trying to predict when the world will end despite the bible saying that the date can not be predicted nor will it be known.

Any other example is "god" is clearly stated not to be "of this dimension" and can not be perceived by us. Yet people claim to see him all the time.


Religion and ideas will always be subjected to interpretation and taken far too literally. and when this is done you have extremist such as the forerunners and the covenant.


I know what he said hence it being an example. The entire firing the array and the events that led up to it are a representation of exactly how they went against the whole idea of the mantle.

It was in the terminals and that comparison doesn't fit seeing how there were only 3 people (including her) that were in the librarians spot. while in the whole humanity there have been many many and many halseys.


I don't disagree that being part of the meaning meant by Reclaimer, I think it makes perfect sense and is a good point, but I don't think that's all Reclaimer is meant to mean. In my experiences with twist revelations from Bungie they have never outright thrown anything out, it has merely been not what we were expecting, there probably is going to be much more to term Reclaimer than what we've all thought for years (your idea might be part of it), but they're not going to completely throw it out and make it nothing we've thought, that's not like them at all.




Bungie no longer has control over halo (which i know you know) thus the word bungie isn't relevant.

And not to be a dick but if you honestly said that then you obviously are new to the haloverse because cryptum completely threw everything we thought out of the window and twisted it. Which is why i am thinking more logically and abstractly with my ideas now.


Old habits die hard :P But as far as I'm really concerned 343i and Bungie might as well be the same since Frankie is ex Bungie and he's pretty much head of everything going on over there. Might be some more former Bungie guys over, I only know Frankie is for certain. I frankly disagree, Cryptum twisted a lot of what we thought we knew, but it didn't really change much, it was more bringing in new things than completely turning everything over on its head and starting all theories over from scratch. And I am new to Halo, I only got my first Halo game and started playing the series about two years ago, and only just started really getting involved end of last year and all throughout this year.

[Edited on 05.27.2011 9:39 AM PDT]

  • 05.27.2011 9:38 AM PDT