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Subject: A question about the glassing of Reach.


Posted by: Spartan1065
Hopefully you read my post after the edit. But anyway, I don't have the novels on me right now but I vaguely remember a description about glassing and the oceans being boiled away. However I have no proof as I don't have the novels in front of me.
I made an account of that by stating that it would be impossible to do that even in weeks.

Hell, I don't even think it is possible to do that with those ship weaponry within a year.

[Edited on 04.02.2011 12:51 PM PDT]

  • 04.02.2011 12:50 PM PDT

Oh hey there

Posted by: petarded2
It's a metaphor for the 07s' lack of identity. too old to be newfa­g, yet too new to be oldfa­g, we wander b.net in search of a home, forever trying to be something we are not.


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: Plasma3150

Posted by: Tupolev
No, the real issue is that Bungie retconned the Covenant approach to invasion in Reach, while Certain Affinity built their maps on the classic model.
But the logistics required to do that sort of thing would be astronomical. The power input, the amount of ships required, etc. would require more than a mere 300 ships are capable of.


Also,if the amount of Reach previously thought was actually glassed, then I'm sorry but First Strike? wouldn't happen.

The admiral and the group of Spartans would be dead due to low atmosphere, and the planet life around the cave would be ashes, or completely dead.

Before they hinted at most of the planet being glassed, which would cause heavy affects to the non-glassed portions and the atmosphere.

Well it was directly described in First Strike, when they talk about the grid pattern used by the ships to make sure every bit of the planet is burned. So obviously something was changed in Reach.

  • 04.02.2011 12:55 PM PDT

Oh hey there

Posted by: petarded2
It's a metaphor for the 07s' lack of identity. too old to be newfa­g, yet too new to be oldfa­g, we wander b.net in search of a home, forever trying to be something we are not.

Posted by: Plasma3150

Posted by: Spartan1065
Hopefully you read my post after the edit. But anyway, I don't have the novels on me right now but I vaguely remember a description about glassing and the oceans being boiled away. However I have no proof as I don't have the novels in front of me.
I made an account of that by stating that it would be impossible to do that even in weeks.

Hell, I don't even think it is possible to do that with those ship weaponry within a year.

Remember we're working with an incomplete knowledge of the Covenants power generating capabilities so we can't really say for sure.

  • 04.02.2011 12:56 PM PDT


Posted by: Spartan1065

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: Plasma3150

Posted by: Tupolev
No, the real issue is that Bungie retconned the Covenant approach to invasion in Reach, while Certain Affinity built their maps on the classic model.
But the logistics required to do that sort of thing would be astronomical. The power input, the amount of ships required, etc. would require more than a mere 300 ships are capable of.


Also,if the amount of Reach previously thought was actually glassed, then I'm sorry but First Strike? wouldn't happen.

The admiral and the group of Spartans would be dead due to low atmosphere, and the planet life around the cave would be ashes, or completely dead.

Before they hinted at most of the planet being glassed, which would cause heavy affects to the non-glassed portions and the atmosphere.

Well it was directly described in First Strike, when they talk about the grid pattern used by the ships to make sure every bit of the planet is burned. So obviously something was changed in Reach.
Not really. The Atmosphere would heat up to a point where a human being cannot survive.

  • 04.02.2011 12:56 PM PDT


Posted by: Spartan1065
Posted by: Plasma3150

Posted by: Spartan1065
Hopefully you read my post after the edit. But anyway, I don't have the novels on me right now but I vaguely remember a description about glassing and the oceans being boiled away. However I have no proof as I don't have the novels in front of me.
I made an account of that by stating that it would be impossible to do that even in weeks.

Hell, I don't even think it is possible to do that with those ship weaponry within a year.

Remember we're working with an incomplete knowledge of the Covenants power generating capabilities so we can't really say for sure.
We seen their weaponry in past games and novels. We can make fairly accurate estimations.

If the Covenant had this kind of power, than how in the hell was New Mombasa still around? How the hell did we even chase Regret's Assault Carrier off of Earth?

[Edited on 04.02.2011 1:02 PM PDT]

  • 04.02.2011 12:59 PM PDT

Oh hey there

Posted by: petarded2
It's a metaphor for the 07s' lack of identity. too old to be newfa­g, yet too new to be oldfa­g, we wander b.net in search of a home, forever trying to be something we are not.

I hate to reference halopedia, but I have no choice seeing as I don't have the novels in front of me, but they do cite several of the novels when talking about glassing. It has been said they burn the entire surface. So like I said something was retconned. I'm just wondering which we should think is correct, the original burn everything, or what seems to have become the new Reach truth that is burn certain sections.

[Edited on 04.02.2011 1:00 PM PDT]

  • 04.02.2011 1:00 PM PDT


Posted by: Spartan1065
I hate to reference halopedia, but I have no choice seeing as I don't have the novels in front of me, but they do cite several of the novels when talking about glassing. It has been said they burn the entire surface. So like I said something was retconned. I'm just wondering which we should think is correct, the original burn everything, or what seems to have become the new Reach truth that is burn certain sections.
What Cmdr said before is true: If we were to keep the old knowledge, than we can forget about Halsey and the remnants of Red Team. If the Covenant were able to completely reduce the planet to glass, or even burn the landscape until it became nothingness, the atmosphere would have cooked them alive.

[Edited on 04.02.2011 1:06 PM PDT]

  • 04.02.2011 1:05 PM PDT

Posted by: Plasma3150
If the Covenant had this kind of power, than how in the hell was New Mombasa still around? How the hell did we even chase Regret's Assault Carrier off of Earth?

Because they didn't want to glass New Mombasa quite so uncarefully destructively due to its proximity to important stuff, and because Regret's Carrier seems to have left with intent to go to Delta Halo (also, because power output and weapons usefulness in a tactical environment do not always correlate; I can drag a refinery onto a battlefield, but that doesn't mean I can suddenly melt all the enemy tanks).


Yeah, the power requirements that we're talking about are huge; if my estimates are correct, you would need something like (3 or 4)*10^7 Tsar Bombs to burn off Earth's oceans. But this is also a ficticious universe, 500 years into the future, and the Covenant are far more technologically advanced than mankind due to making use of technology from a lost civilization that was able to do stuff like make Halo rings.

  • 04.02.2011 1:09 PM PDT


Posted by: Tupolev
Posted by: Plasma3150
If the Covenant had this kind of power, than how in the hell was New Mombasa still around? How the hell did we even chase Regret's Assault Carrier off of Earth?

Because they didn't want to glass New Mombasa quite so uncarefully destructively due to its proximity to important stuff
Didn't make him hesitate to open a slipspace portal right above it. I'm surprised that the Portal to The Ark was not damaged at all.

Yeah, the power requirements that we're talking about are huge; if my estimates are correct, you would need something like (3 or 4)*10^7 Tsar Bombs to burn off Earth's oceans. But this is also a ficticious universe, 500 years into the future, and the Covenant are far more technologically advanced than mankind due to making use of technology from a lost civilization that was able to do stuff like make Halo rings.If they had this kind of power, than why didn't they use this during their space fights? Sure, the shockwave and lasting fires cannot happen in vacuum, but the initial energy release of heat and light would still form a ball of plasma that would destroy multiple ships at a time. It's tactically idiotic.

  • 04.02.2011 1:16 PM PDT

Oh hey there

Posted by: petarded2
It's a metaphor for the 07s' lack of identity. too old to be newfa­g, yet too new to be oldfa­g, we wander b.net in search of a home, forever trying to be something we are not.

Plasma3150
Well the slipspace didn't even really destroy New Mombassa. In ODST the buildings and vehicles were pretty messed up but nothing was really badly destroyed. It wasn't until they began using the excavation beams at the end of ODST that the Portal was exposed.

To your second point about using them in space battles they do use plasma weapons in space battles. That is essentially what the glassing beams are, plasma bombardment. In fact the plasma weapons used in space are better as you are basically able to direct the plasma after it has been fired.

[Edited on 04.02.2011 1:23 PM PDT]

  • 04.02.2011 1:22 PM PDT

Posted by: Plasma3150
Posted by: Tupolev
Posted by: Plasma3150
If the Covenant had this kind of power, than how in the hell was New Mombasa still around? How the hell did we even chase Regret's Assault Carrier off of Earth?

Because they didn't want to glass New Mombasa quite so uncarefully destructively due to its proximity to important stuff
Didn't make him hesitate to open a slipspace portal right above it. I'm surprised that the Portal to The Ark was not damaged at all.

Atmospheric detonations are hardly the same thing as torching the ground.

If they had this kind of power, than why didn't they use this during their space fights? Sure, the shockwave and lasting fires cannot happen in vacuum, but the initial energy release of heat and light would still form a ball of plasma that would destroy multiple ships at a time. It's tactically idiotic.
You don't seem to understand the distinction between energy and power. Having the power output to glass a planet is easy; under constant Tsar Bomb detonations, Earth could be completely toast very, very quickly. The issue is sustained energy release. If their energy-efficient glassing weapons can't behave as high-velocity, high-power weapons, then they aren't going to help them out tactically.

Once again, look at the refinery example. Just because you have a certain thing that can do certain things to certain things under certain conditions doesn't mean it can be used as a tactical weapon.

[Edited on 04.02.2011 1:27 PM PDT]

  • 04.02.2011 1:27 PM PDT

Posted by: Spartan1065
Posted by: Mutoid Log
The difference isn't total vs partial, it's glassing vs burning. The entire planet gets burned, but only some parts get burned so badly they turn to glass.

I don't think so. If the entire planet was burned/glassed we would see evidence of it in Condemned and the final view of Reach we have in the game. Instead it's only isolated pockets that are burning and on the rest of the planet we can still see the land forms and topography.
Those endshots may be from after the fire had set down. Condemned has evidence of a whole continent lit up, right? And a mere burning doesn't destroy topography, it mostly just kills all life.

  • 04.02.2011 1:27 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

The Unyielding Heirophant has 1000 12 terawatt reactors, giving a total power output of 12 petawatts.

According to Atomic Rocket's boom table, glassing planets like what was described in the old canon is quite a feat.

Covenant ships do not have shields anywhere near the strength of the UH nor do they have reactor complexes the size of UH's, and taking into consideration that Cortana describes them as being a similar model to the UH's reactors, I think that Covenant vessels would not be able to generate nearly as much energy as that.

About 19'000 years for one UH power level ship to glass Reach's continents only to a molten state. It halves each time for every ship, so by the time we get to 700 UH like ships, the time is extremely small (Assuming I did my math right!). Taking into consideration however that Covenant ships cannot produce that much energy, we might get into the time frames described by the novels (Days etc). This is all going off of the "old" canon.

It sounds slightly silly though. With those wattages the Covenant should be able to vaporise UNSC fleets instantly and have shields that are extremely resilient.

The "new" canon seems to be retconning this glassing concept. This thread stands primary on what the newer canon appears to be telling us. (Like Reach, Assembly AI, Evolutions)

EDIT: I made a mistake in Paragraph 4. Correction below.

Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Mutoid Log
Posted by: anton1792
About 19'000 years for one UH power level ship to glass Reach to a molten state. It halves each time for every ship, so by the time we get to 700 UH like ships, the time is extremely small (Assuming I did my math right!).
You did not. If you have 100 ships and you add 1 more ship, the time taken doesn't halve. You've gotta divide by 700, that's 27 years.

Aye, woops. Don't know what I was thinking of.


[Edited on 04.02.2011 1:56 PM PDT]

  • 04.02.2011 1:28 PM PDT


Posted by: Spartan1065
Posted by: Plasma3150

Posted by: Tupolev
No, the real issue is that Bungie retconned the Covenant approach to invasion in Reach, while Certain Affinity built their maps on the classic model.
But the logistics required to do that sort of thing would be astronomical. The power input, the amount of ships required, etc. would require more than a mere 300 ships are capable of.

Well it was retconned to be 700+ ships. But that's not really the point do we know how much power the Covenant ships power sources can generate? I'm not sure but the glassing beams are capable of burning huge swaths of land with hundreds of ships it is possible it would just take a long time.


Actually, no it wasn't it's still in the upper neighborhood of 300, the 700+ ships was a mistake made due to someone misinterpreting Hood's hyperbole in H2. Aside from one instance everywhere else in TFoR mentions 300+ ships not 700+.

  • 04.02.2011 1:31 PM PDT

Energy projector/glassing beam striking an ocean would cause some boiling. However, that wasn't used to describe Reach. The most that was said was "They had their fleet in the formation used to glass planets." And nobody stayed to see if they actually did that.

  • 04.02.2011 1:33 PM PDT

Posted by: anton1792
About 19'000 years for one UH power level ship to glass Reach to a molten state. It halves each time for every ship, so by the time we get to 700 UH like ships, the time is extremely small (Assuming I did my math right!).
You did not. If you have 100 ships and you add 1 more ship, the time taken doesn't halve. You've gotta divide by 700, that's 27 years.

  • 04.02.2011 1:34 PM PDT

Oh hey there

Posted by: petarded2
It's a metaphor for the 07s' lack of identity. too old to be newfa­g, yet too new to be oldfa­g, we wander b.net in search of a home, forever trying to be something we are not.

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Spartan1065
Posted by: Plasma3150

Posted by: Tupolev
No, the real issue is that Bungie retconned the Covenant approach to invasion in Reach, while Certain Affinity built their maps on the classic model.
But the logistics required to do that sort of thing would be astronomical. The power input, the amount of ships required, etc. would require more than a mere 300 ships are capable of.

Well it was retconned to be 700+ ships. But that's not really the point do we know how much power the Covenant ships power sources can generate? I'm not sure but the glassing beams are capable of burning huge swaths of land with hundreds of ships it is possible it would just take a long time.


Actually, no it wasn't it's still in the upper neighborhood of 300, the 700+ ships was a mistake made due to someone misinterpreting Hood's hyperbole in H2. Aside from one instance everywhere else in TFoR mentions 300+ ships not 700+.

A new version of TFoR was released right before Reach was released with a few retcons including the winter contingency section added to the end. The 700+ ships was a retcon. Take a gander through this old thread for some details and discussion.

  • 04.02.2011 1:38 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Mutoid Log
Posted by: anton1792
About 19'000 years for one UH power level ship to glass Reach to a molten state. It halves each time for every ship, so by the time we get to 700 UH like ships, the time is extremely small (Assuming I did my math right!).
You did not. If you have 100 ships and you add 1 more ship, the time taken doesn't halve. You've gotta divide by 700, that's 27 years.

Aye, woops. Don't know what I was thinking of.

  • 04.02.2011 1:39 PM PDT

Spartan, I think what they mention is that (from what I've heard) they say 700+ ships once, and then go back to 300+ ships.

  • 04.02.2011 1:40 PM PDT

Oh hey there

Posted by: petarded2
It's a metaphor for the 07s' lack of identity. too old to be newfa­g, yet too new to be oldfa­g, we wander b.net in search of a home, forever trying to be something we are not.

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Energy projector/glassing beam striking an ocean would cause some boiling. However, that wasn't used to describe Reach. The most that was said was "They had their fleet in the formation used to glass planets." And nobody stayed to see if they actually did that.

Well if they were in formation for the glassing doesn't it stand to reason that they went ahead with it?

The discussion about the retconned version of the book always revolved around it being changed to 700. I never bought the new version but that is what I've always heard.

[Edited on 04.02.2011 1:43 PM PDT]

  • 04.02.2011 1:42 PM PDT

I think that condemned was simply exaggerated for the look of the map. In the books it was clearly stated that the covenant avoided glassing the equator to find the forerunner artifact.

  • 04.02.2011 1:52 PM PDT

Oh hey there

Posted by: petarded2
It's a metaphor for the 07s' lack of identity. too old to be newfa­g, yet too new to be oldfa­g, we wander b.net in search of a home, forever trying to be something we are not.

Posted by: anton1792
The "new" canon seems to be retconning this glassing concept. This thread stands primary on what the newer canon appears to be telling us. (Like Reach, Assembly AI, Evolutions)


I never saw this thread before very well made anton. It should be a top forum topic.

  • 04.02.2011 1:55 PM PDT

Don't worry, you're still your mom's favorite Bnet member.

I think it's the oceans reflecting the light from the atmosphere, which is red from all the fire.

  • 04.02.2011 2:05 PM PDT

Oh hey there

Posted by: petarded2
It's a metaphor for the 07s' lack of identity. too old to be newfa­g, yet too new to be oldfa­g, we wander b.net in search of a home, forever trying to be something we are not.

So anton after reading your thread about glassing and the Covenants ability to do it to an entire planet I have a point I'd like to make unfortunately I can no longer post in your thread so I'll just put it here.

While the Data pad AI give us the average of 15 seconds for 1 acre of glassed land when they say glass do they actually mean burned until the land turns into glass? If so you could make an argument saying that it is unnecessary to "glass", and by glass I mean actually heating until the land is glass, the all of the land but instead just burn it which would be much quicker and require much less energy. So the Covenant instead of glassing the entire planet could just burn the entire surface and do it much more quickly.

  • 04.02.2011 2:31 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Spartan1065
So anton after reading your thread about glassing and the Covenants ability to do it to an entire planet I have a point I'd like to make unfortunately I can no longer post in your thread so I'll just put it here.

While the Data pad AI give us the average of 15 seconds for 1 acre of glassed land when they say glass do they actually mean burned until the land turns into glass?

I would assume so; that is what people in the novels always referred to it as being and it must have had at least some foundation, however flawed. For example, people may have seen areas that got heavily bombarded (Due to bunkers perhaps) turn to glass and immediately assume that this is what happens to the rest of the planet. Also, Wraith mortars left small glassy pockmarks wherever they hit. Again, people could be incorrectly extrapolating from that. In addition to that, glassing was also thought to reduce the atmosphere and boil off the oceans, in essence leaving a world like a lifeless marble unable to ever recover.

Posted by: Spartan1065
If so you could make an argument saying that it is unnecessary to "glass", and by glass I mean actually heating until the land is glass, the all of the land but instead just burn it which would be much quicker and require much less energy. So the Covenant instead of glassing the entire planet could just burn the entire surface and do it much more quickly.

Yes. It is like what Mutiod said. It is not really total glassing vs partial glassing, but glassing vs burning.

The idea is that worlds are still devastated by this burning but the concept of them being left in the state that people think of when they use the word glassing is incorrect.

I guess partial glassing and burning are the same. The planet gets burned largely, but some areas are hit extremely hard (Like cities or bunkers) and as a result these areas get glassed.

The Covenant may just be being efficient or they may in fact be restricted by their technology. I never thought about the Unyielding Heirophant when I made that thread you see, so I cannot update it.

  • 04.02.2011 3:14 PM PDT

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