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This topic has moved here: Subject: Just got done re-reading cryptum (flood discussion)
  • Subject: Just got done re-reading cryptum (flood discussion)
Subject: Just got done re-reading cryptum (flood discussion)
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

So i just got done reading the book (first book i have ever read twice) and i was able to understand and put alot more things into context. This thread is going to be about the flood.


THE PRISONER
---------------------------

While we have many threads on the relationship between the gravemind and the prisoner, many people think that it is lying about being a precursor for whatever reason. So after reading again her is what i noticed.


The prisoner spoke to didact in Diagon which it had to have learned from older forerunners. I feel that thought this was the first sentence of that passage many hell all of us overlooked that part.

That clearly means the prisoner came in contact with Forerunners in the far past, seeing how Charum Hakkor is in what i belive to be human controlled space; i don't think it had just learned that language. So the fact it is even speaking in that tongue makes it's story far more believable.

THE FLOOD'S SCORN
---------------------------
For the past few weeks i have been trying to understand why the flood seem to hate the forerunners, yet don't seem to hold anything towards humanity. not sure i have understood it so this is just me rambling on it


It was Ancient humanity that first came incontact with the flood, it was them that pushed them out of the galaxy. Yet the Gravemind doesn't seem to be aware of this or hold any hate towards humanity. The flood seems to be single focused on the forerunners. Again, this ties in with the prisoner's statment "and our answer is at hand".

In which i now fully believe that the precursors created the flood as an answer to the forerunners waring with them.

"Child of my enemy why have you come here? i offer you no forgiveness, a fathers sins..pass to his son"

That was said by the all meaning gravemind himself child of my enemy mind you that the gravemind has consumed millions of forerunners and has thier knowledge, i would also like to think that he would be able to tap into the geas of humanity by consuming them also, meaning he would have full knowledge of everything.

All that being said i think what i have been proposing for weeks COULD be correct.

Precursors create the Forerunners, ether humanity is a long long lost sub species of forerunner or the forerunners created them in precursor time for whatever reason.

Like i said i am rambling around here so hopefully i can get some feed back and we can make something out of it. Also, did anybody catch that the infection spread from human to human, human to San shyuum, but in rare cases San shyuum to human?

Might not be anything, but it just looks like the flood was targeted for humans....

THE ARRIVAL[b]

So we have all been wondering where they flood came from, after re-reading i came confirm that tis first infestation did arrive from the magenellic clouds just outside our galaxy on ships with auto pilot. They could figure out anything else beyound that.

The ships were said to be Ancient, which means they were sent eons ago only to recently make thier destionation, while some had been found on worlds in bad form all carrying the same powder.

I am not a doctor or anything close, but i don't think whoever sent them meant for them to be eaten by pets and then burst out as flood. Maybe the powder was suppose to be used on humans or forerunner in some way and then infect them. Can anybody with medical knowledge speak anything on that?



[b]FORERUNNER-FLOOD WAR


-------------------------------------

I find the forerunner flood war to be confusing in itself so i'll just talk about it


While stated to be a "war" i can't understand how with all forerunner technology how no news of this "war" ever go out. With the flood spreading like fire and consuming whole worlds i just don't get how no messages, or survivers (yes there were survivers) ever said anything about the flood.

Maybe with 3 million worlds nobody really notices if one seems "missing", but what if a forerunner tried to go to a world ravaged by the flood, what would happen?

hopefully somebody gets my misunderstanding of all that.


To be honest instead of being dramatic and building halos,arks, and shield worlds; why didn't they just fight the flood directly and make star go supernova?

I don't think destroying star systems would really hurt the forerunners any if they are already infected. IT just seems easier to send a AI controlled ship to go around blowing up infected systems..

----------------------------------------------------------------

That pretty much sums everthing up on the flood and expect more threads on other things during the week. The next thread might be about The halo array and the ark. I hope this gets some feedback and we can all talk about this.


Also

-The forerunners were only able to SPECULATE that Earth was humanity's homeworld. I find that to be very very very important.

- It seems that the word "galaxy" is misused alot in the book. Both humans and forerunners lived and controlled the orion arm. the forerunners controlled the inside regions while the humans controlled the outer regions. the didn't live on opposite sides of the galaxy. thanks again Anton for putting this stuff in perspective.

- Did the flood really control the milky way or just the orion arm? I really feel that the word "galaxy" is being abused to make things seem more dramatic. I feel that if the flood controlled the whole galaxy the forerunners would have been effed from the start.



[Edited on 04.05.2011 10:41 AM PDT]

  • 04.05.2011 10:40 AM PDT
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact

Great thread :)

Maybe the gravemind wasn't aware of this because he wasn't involved in that war.If he trully is that prisoner then he joined the flood after the prisoner escaped.It's also said in the book that the flood will soon have their new master,no doubt it's the gravemind/prisoner.Then the flood who fought the humans were far less advanced the ones who fought the Forerunners.

It's hinted that both Humans and Forerunners were created by the Precursors,they are brother species.

-I think the Forerunners kept the arrival of the flood as a secret just like an ONI cover up.But i agree it's nigh impossible to keep it a secret for 300 years.Maybe they wiped the memorys from the survivors to keep it as a secret.

Too bad we haven't any details of the warfare between flood and forerunners,it puzzles me how the flood were able to defeat powerful starships and super suits with continent busting weapons.Probably because the flood awesome adaptility .

I think the Forerunners did controlled the entire galaxy,i know 3 millions is so tiny compared to the rest.But the forerunners probably viewed the rest as their territory and had many outposts and colonies around.

  • 04.05.2011 10:54 AM PDT

Oh hey there

Posted by: petarded2
It's a metaphor for the 07s' lack of identity. too old to be newfa­g, yet too new to be oldfa­g, we wander b.net in search of a home, forever trying to be something we are not.

The idea that the prisoner is the Gravemind has never made sense to me either for all of the reasons that you pointed out, and also just a "gut" feeling that I have but that is neither quantifiable nor helpful just thought I'd share it.

When you talk about a hatred that the Flood have for the Forerunner I've never really heard any solid evidence that they "hate" them. Instead from the Gravemind's dialogue with Mendicant Bias it always seemed to me that they were just doing what evolution told them to do, that is consume "lesser" species to add to their own power and to bring species in the "galaxy" to the next level of evolution(whether that instinct was programmed by the Precursor or just a manifestation of every species drive to thrive in it's environment we're not sure yet but I assume we'll find out in the next few books).

I also think it is more likely that the Humans were created by the Precursor alongside the Forerunner rather than Humanity being an offshoot of the Forerunner. It just seems that a species, Humanity, that could actually wage a two wars one with the Flood and one with the Forerunner, and be able to win one war must have technology that was moderately comparable to that of the Forerunner. So it would make sense that they have been around nearly as long. That could also be another reason why they were never really part of the Forerunner empire, rivalry between "siblings" perhaps that eventually the Forerunner won, with the help of the Flood.

As a random sidenote to that that just came to my mind "Child of my enemy why have you come". Perhaps the Gravemind was referring to the Precursor as his enemy when he says this. Perhaps instead of creating the Flood the Precursor actually discovered them from another galaxy and defeated them in a war. Then weakened by this war the Forerunner might have risen up and overthrown them and so the Precursor instead of destroying the Flood decided to use it against the Forerunner. This would explain the Gravemind quote and the Prisoner's quote fairly well. Of course that is complete speculation that I just thought of while writing this.

My theory that I just laid out actually fits with the arrival of the Flood as well. If they came from another galaxy perhaps the ships found by humanity were the remnants of what the Precursor did not destroy in order to exact revenge upon the Forerunner. Humanity may have been an innocent bystander in all of it. Perhaps that powder would have had a different effect on the Forerunner than it did on humanity, thus negating the need for the pets to first be infected to start the Flood.

When talking about the Forerunner Flood war we can't glean much information from cryptum. In fact I think that information was specifically left out and it will be the focus of the next book. Cryptum merely gave us the awakening of Didact and then what seems to be the end of the war as Mendicant leads the Flood and the Prisoner to the center of Forerunner power and the Ark. I think that after the Forerunner human war the flood probably started infecting the Forerunner as they reclaimed their worlds and from there the Flood spread. I believe that in the second book we might get an account of that battle against the flood and perhaps the third book would be bringing the two stories together ending with the firing of the Array, at least that is what my theory about the books is whether that turns out to be true remains to be seen.

Honestly after writing the response to your questions I have come up with a theory that I think is very plausible the one that I talked about earlier. That Humanity and the Forerunner were both created by the Precursor and the Precursor may have discovered the Flood and waged war against it weakening them. After they defeated the Flood the Forerunner seeing their weakness destroyed them and in retribution the Precursor didn't destroy the Flood but instead decided to use it to exact vengeance on the Forerunner. This theory makes sense to me at least when you look at the Gravemind quote you mentioned and some of the things the Prisoner says. Of course its HIGHLY speculative, I think I'm going to work on a thread about it over the next couple of days, just have to do a little research.

Regardless interesting questions, they got me thinking anyway.

[Edited on 04.05.2011 11:07 AM PDT]

  • 04.05.2011 11:04 AM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: hotshot revan II
Great thread :)

Maybe the gravemind wasn't aware of this because he wasn't involved in that war.If he trully is that prisoner then he joined the flood after the prisoner escaped.It's also said in the book that the flood will soon have their new master,no doubt it's the gravemind/prisoner.Then the flood who fought the humans were far less advanced the ones who fought the Forerunners.

It's hinted that both Humans and Forerunners were created by the Precursors,they are brother species.

-I think the Forerunners kept the arrival of the flood as a secret just like an ONI cover up.But i agree it's nigh impossible to keep it a secret for 300 years.Maybe they wiped the memorys from the survivors to keep it as a secret.

Too bad we haven't any details of the warfare between flood and forerunners,it puzzles me how the flood were able to defeat powerful starships and super suits with continent busting weapons.Probably because the flood awesome adaptility .

I think the Forerunners did controlled the entire galaxy,i know 3 millions is so tiny compared to the rest.But the forerunners probably viewed the rest as their territory and had many outposts and colonies around.



Thanks it means alot, if others feel the same i'll do a follow up.



Thats what i really want to talk about. is it possable that the flood don't naturally form a gravemind and this was only done AFTER coming in contact with the prisoner?

The flood infected 15 systems during the war with humanity and were said to have hundreds of worlds. That would be more than enough biomass for a gravemind, hell ONE fully infested continent would be enough. So if they had hundreds of worlds and no gravemind then i don't think it was a natural step.

So they were just as much as i hate the term "space-zombies" thus 1 infected human could control a ship. all of which i am now assuming.

And if they were able to push the forerunners into defeat after only 300 years and they left the galaxy for 9-10 thousand; could it be said that they did fully infect a nearby galaxy?

  • 04.05.2011 11:05 AM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Spartan1065
The idea that the prisoner is the Gravemind has never made sense to me either for all of the reasons that you pointed out, and also just a "gut" feeling that I have but that is neither quantifiable nor helpful just thought I'd share it.

understandable seeing how this is all out of my head. Regardless of my post medicant bias was in contact with the gravemind for 43 years (terminals) We then learn that medicant bias has been missing for 40-50 years around the time we learn the prisoner is gone.

The Gravemind seduced Medicant bias to join him(terminals), Medicant Bias tells Didact imprinted Bornsteller that "you are dangerous to my new master". The relation is apparent to those that have read the terminals before hand. i can honestly tell you that i got wide eyed the first time i read that MB had been missing for 40-50 years. that alone sealed the fact the prisoner and gravemind are the same, to me that is



When you talk about a hatred that the Flood have for the Forerunner I've never really heard any solid evidence that they "hate" them. Instead from the Gravemind's dialogue with Mendicant Bias it always seemed to me that they were just doing what evolution told them to do, that is consume "lesser" species to add to their own power and to bring species in the "galaxy" to the next level of evolution(whether that instinct was programmed by the Precursor or just a manifestation of every species drive to thrive in it's environment we're not sure yet but I assume we'll find out in the next few books).


Be aware that this isn't a theory or anything near it, this is just me talking about things i have been thinking about and noticed after the secound time i read the book.

The fact the flood seem so hellbent on destroying the forerunners is what i am talking about, again more of this is in the terminals than in the book.

"

I have to stop transmitting. The
thing is listening. Its [thinking
dead] are babbling - laughing
through every channel they can find."

Terminal 6

"Your history is an appalling
chronicle of overindulgence and
self-appointed authority. You have
spent millennia [navel-gazing]
while the universe has continued to
evolve. And now you claim the Mantle
is justification for impeding
nature's inevitable refinement?


You are deluded. But through death
you will transcend ignorance."

Terminal 4, MB rampant after listening to the floods ideals.



I also think it is more likely that the Humans were created by the Precursor alongside the Forerunner rather than Humanity being an offshoot of the Forerunner.

I am just thinking ahead when i say i think we were an off shoot of forerunner or that they did create us. Cryptum threw everything we knew into the wind, so i am trying to think outside the box. Hell for all we know humanity could have came before the forerunners. who knows?

more or less like your friend saying your mom looks like you when it is you that looks like your mom. Same could be said for humanity and forerunners.



As a random sidenote to that that just came to my mind "Child of my enemy why have you come". Perhaps the Gravemind was referring to the Precursor as his enemy when he says this. Perhaps instead of creating the Flood the Precursor actually discovered them from another galaxy and defeated them in a war. Then weakened by this war the Forerunner might have risen up and overthrown them and so the Precursor instead of destroying the Flood decided to use it against the Forerunner. This would explain the Gravemind quote and the Prisoner's quote fairly well. Of course that is complete speculation that I just thought of while writing this.

i could see that to a degree, but that wouldn't add up with the fact the gravemind says it didn't deseve the sentence that it got. something a PRISONER would say. so it seems the flood might have been created for a purpose, that it is filling out be everybody dislikes it for doing so.

My theory that I just laid out actually fits with the arrival of the Flood as well. If they came from another galaxy perhaps the ships found by humanity were the remnants of what the Precursor did not destroy in order to exact revenge upon the Forerunner. Humanity may have been an innocent bystander in all of it. Perhaps that powder would have had a different effect on the Forerunner than it did on humanity, thus negating the need for the pets to first be infected to start the Flood.

Agian, i agree with that fully.

I think that after the Forerunner human war the flood probably started infecting the Forerunner as they reclaimed their worlds and from there the Flood spread.

THANKYOU, you reminded me what i wanted to ask. The flood were said to come from outside the galaxy on to the planet seaward. Then they were stated to be found on forerunner woulds that the humans took that are now being reclaimed.

For some reason that seems odd to me as all the flood left the galaxy, i could understant stragglers. but a combat form wouldn't have the biomass to keep living for years and years on years without additional mass being added. The flood pretty much have an operantional clock or atleast non pure forms due as the body would soon decay and run out of biomass.




Regardless interesting questions, they got me thinking anyway.

no prob and thanks, if you need any help on your ideas ill help you.

  • 04.05.2011 11:29 AM PDT
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: hotshot revan II
Great thread :)

Maybe the gravemind wasn't aware of this because he wasn't involved in that war.If he trully is that prisoner then he joined the flood after the prisoner escaped.It's also said in the book that the flood will soon have their new master,no doubt it's the gravemind/prisoner.Then the flood who fought the humans were far less advanced the ones who fought the Forerunners.

It's hinted that both Humans and Forerunners were created by the Precursors,they are brother species.

-I think the Forerunners kept the arrival of the flood as a secret just like an ONI cover up.But i agree it's nigh impossible to keep it a secret for 300 years.Maybe they wiped the memorys from the survivors to keep it as a secret.

Too bad we haven't any details of the warfare between flood and forerunners,it puzzles me how the flood were able to defeat powerful starships and super suits with continent busting weapons.Probably because the flood awesome adaptility .

I think the Forerunners did controlled the entire galaxy,i know 3 millions is so tiny compared to the rest.But the forerunners probably viewed the rest as their territory and had many outposts and colonies around.



Thanks it means alot, if others feel the same i'll do a follow up.



Thats what i really want to talk about. is it possable that the flood don't naturally form a gravemind and this was only done AFTER coming in contact with the prisoner?

The flood infected 15 systems during the war with humanity and were said to have hundreds of worlds. That would be more than enough biomass for a gravemind, hell ONE fully infested continent would be enough. So if they had hundreds of worlds and no gravemind then i don't think it was a natural step.

So they were just as much as i hate the term "space-zombies" thus 1 infected human could control a ship. all of which i am now assuming.

And if they were able to push the forerunners into defeat after only 300 years and they left the galaxy for 9-10 thousand; could it be said that they did fully infect a nearby galaxy?


They need the graveminds/prisoners consiousness,even a ring couldn't kill it.With the Precursors weird consiousness power as they are transsentient.The prisoner probably merged his consiousness with the entire flood,as it's said in the terminals that the gravemind is the flood.

-Possibly,they arrived on ancient ships when fighting the Humans but if you read "Soma the painter" then you notice the flood arrived on some organic thing falling out of the sky,something probably like a Flood drop pod.So yes they possibly infected another galaxy before returning,i can't see where else they could have got that much of biomass.

  • 04.05.2011 11:57 AM PDT

Oh hey there

Posted by: petarded2
It's a metaphor for the 07s' lack of identity. too old to be newfa­g, yet too new to be oldfa­g, we wander b.net in search of a home, forever trying to be something we are not.

If it came across like I was arguing a theory that wasn't my intent. I was more just discussing ideas that I had about your ideas and so on. But anyway.

I think terminal 6 proves my point about it not being a hatred of the Forerunner but an evolutionary and instinctual drive that the Flood has.

Just to have it in this reply what I said about the Flood and its need to force evolution and thrive was:

Posted by: Spartan1065
Instead from the Gravemind's dialogue with Mendicant Bias it always seemed to me that they were just doing what evolution told them to do, that is consume "lesser" species to add to their own power and to bring species in the "galaxy" to the next level of evolution(whether that instinct was programmed by the Precursor or just a manifestation of every species drive to thrive in it's environment we're not sure yet but I assume we'll find out in the next few books).


I think that generalization fits perfectly with terminal 6 that you pointed out:

"Your history is an appalling
chronicle of overindulgence and
self-appointed authority. You have
spent millennia [navel-gazing]
while the universe has continued to
evolve. And now you claim the Mantle
is justification for impeding
nature's inevitable refinement?


You are deluded. But through death
you will transcend ignorance."


The Gravemind's main point in this discussion I think is that the Forerunner are slowing the evolution of the galaxy by implementing their Mantle and naturally there is no justification for preserving weaker species by holding back the stronger. So by destroying and absorbing the Forerunner and all of the species under their protection, the Flood is merely helping nature take its course.

I think the Gravemind line "a sentence I did not deserve" from H3, I assume that's what you're referring to, fits well with my theory (which I admit after having this pointed out to me is similar in several ways to Snakies old 3 children theory with a few changes such as the Flood not being created by the Precursor and the whole war aspect) if you look at it from the Gravemind's perspective of just trying to help nature move along its evolutionary path that I just tried to lay out. It sees itself as helping the Forerunner by bringing them into the fold and bringing them to a higher level of evolution even though that comes with the sacrifice of biodiversity in the galaxy.

Your confusion about the Flood not dying off is actually, I think cleared up by my idea about how the Forerunner came into contact with the Flood, which was through the Human Forerunner War. The Flood didn't leave the galaxy after the Human Flood War what I think is that the Flood were being defeated by the Humans but instead they were just trapped on planets that were taken over by humanity, that had formerly been under control of the Forerunner but they were forced to move there by the Flood as it advanced, after the Forerunner had cut humanity off from their capital world. Then after the Forerunner Human war the Forerunner began to recolonize those worlds that the Humans had overtaken due to the Flood pushing them out of their territory and they eventually came across the remaining Flood, if the terminals are still to be believed then it would have been on G617 g. I don't necessarily think that it needed to be in the Combat form or even infection form, but instead the Flood could have been reduced to the powder they were originally found as, the "powder" now that I think about it was most likely just Flood Spores as that is the way that it survives when there are no calcium sources. Like I said earlier that powder, which I now believe was actually Flood spores, then could have just infected the Forerunner, and there is the beginning of the Flood Forerunner Conflict.

  • 04.05.2011 11:59 AM PDT

It sounded to me like the war we heard about from the Termninals hadn't actually started yet in Cryptum, it sounded to me like the Flood were just starting to creep back into the galaxy or something similar. That's why I think they'd be able to keep the Flood under the veil of secrecy all throughout Cryptum, if it's only a few worlds being taken here and there, I don't think it'd raise any huge questions or problems.

Did anything before Cryptum say the Flood controlled the Milky Way? I don't ever remember coming across anything indicating such...

I'm sorry, but I just don't find any basis for assuming that the Precursors created the Flood from that line. I just don't think it really fits.

  • 04.05.2011 12:03 PM PDT

I had always believed that the Prisoner was imprisoned because he created the Flood, which would have been seen as an abomination to the rest of the life-loving Precursors. It could be said the Precursors were split into two camps.

Camp A) Traditionalists, creators and protectors of life to aid and mature the universe. Created humanity/the Forerunners and maybe the Elites to one day inherit the role of the Mantle.

Camp B) More radicle, see there power over the natural laws of the universe as a right to control, but are impeded by the benovolent nature of the traditional Precursors. They use their powers to create a counter to the Forerunners and humanity, a more perfect specemin of life: The Flood. Lead by the Flood's future dark master: The future Gravemind.

This sparks a civil war, which the traditionalists ultimately win, who then throw the Gravemind into a eternal captivity while the Precursors partake in the Great Journey (whatever that is), forever leaving the Prisoner behind. The Prisoner, gone insane over the millions of years of isolation, convinces himself the Forerunners and humanity are the reason for his captivity, and begins plotting his escape and revenge on his enemies.

This would explain the Mind's hatred towards the Forerunners and humanity (eventually), his story to Didact saying the Forerunners wiped out the Precursors (when they really went on the Journey, as Didact says they do in the Terminals), and what the Mind means by saying "Child of my enemy, why have you come?"

Its already been established that the Forerunners tend to believe the Precursors created humanity as well, so we need an explanation for that line. It'll also explain why the Precursors locked up one of their own, the one who happened to bear the message "this [the Flood] is our answer."

  • 04.05.2011 2:53 PM PDT

Oh hey there

Posted by: petarded2
It's a metaphor for the 07s' lack of identity. too old to be newfa­g, yet too new to be oldfa­g, we wander b.net in search of a home, forever trying to be something we are not.

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
I had always believed that the Prisoner was imprisoned because he created the Flood,


I like this idea.

  • 04.05.2011 4:53 PM PDT
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Posted by: grey101

"Child of my enemy why have you come here? i offer you no forgiveness, a fathers sins..pass to his son"

That was said by the all meaning gravemind himself child of my enemy mind you that the gravemind has consumed millions of forerunners and has thier knowledge, i would also like to think that he would be able to tap into the geas of humanity by consuming them also, meaning he would have full knowledge of everything.


I was always under the impression that the gravemind that talked to Master Chief was formed after the Covenant and Humans came into contact with the flood on the first halo. I thought Captain Keyes became a part of the proto-gravemind that became the fully formed gravemind.

Although it seems like the humans and forerunners (side note, I think of forerunners as "space elves" after reading Cryptum) were created by the precursors, well at least the forerunners didn't create the humans, the humans were devolved, and its possible that as the forerunners faded out of existence in our galaxy they designated the humans as their successors.

Think of it as twin brothers, one was devolved into a baby, and as the other died it made the other its adopted son, if you will.

So to look at the gravemind quote, this is how I view it:

"[adopted] Child of my enemy why have you come here? i offer you no forgiveness, a fathers sins (forerunner)..pass to his son (humanity)"


Posted by: ROBERTO jh
I had always believed that the Prisoner was imprisoned because he created the Flood, which would have been seen as an abomination to the rest of the life-loving Precursors. It could be said the Precursors were split into two camps.

Camp A) Traditionalists, creators and protectors of life to aid and mature the universe. Created humanity/the Forerunners and maybe the Elites to one day inherit the role of the Mantle.

Camp B) More radicle, see there power over the natural laws of the universe as a right to control, but are impeded by the benovolent nature of the traditional Precursors. They use their powers to create a counter to the Forerunners and humanity, a more perfect specemin of life: The Flood. Lead by the Flood's future dark master: The future Gravemind.

This sparks a civil war, which the traditionalists ultimately win, who then throw the Gravemind into a eternal captivity while the Precursors partake in the Great Journey (whatever that is), forever leaving the Prisoner behind. The Prisoner, gone insane over the millions of years of isolation, convinces himself the Forerunners and humanity are the reason for his captivity, and begins plotting his escape and revenge on his enemies.

This would explain the Mind's hatred towards the Forerunners and humanity (eventually), his story to Didact saying the Forerunners wiped out the Precursors (when they really went on the Journey, as Didact says they do in the Terminals), and what the Mind means by saying "Child of my enemy, why have you come?"

Its already been established that the Forerunners tend to believe the Precursors created humanity as well, so we need an explanation for that line. It'll also explain why the Precursors locked up one of their own, the one who happened to bear the message "this [the Flood] is our answer."

There's too many unknowns about the Precursors. The one solid fact that we have is that the last precursor stated that his vengeance (the flood) is upon them (the forerunners).

  • 04.05.2011 6:15 PM PDT

I was thinking the same thing.

  • 04.05.2011 7:01 PM PDT


Posted by: ROBERTO jh
I had always believed that the Prisoner was imprisoned because he created the Flood, which would have been seen as an abomination to the rest of the life-loving Precursors. It could be said the Precursors were split into two camps.

Camp A) Traditionalists, creators and protectors of life to aid and mature the universe. Created humanity/the Forerunners and maybe the Elites to one day inherit the role of the Mantle.

Camp B) More radicle, see there power over the natural laws of the universe as a right to control, but are impeded by the benovolent nature of the traditional Precursors. They use their powers to create a counter to the Forerunners and humanity, a more perfect specemin of life: The Flood. Lead by the Flood's future dark master: The future Gravemind.

This sparks a civil war, which the traditionalists ultimately win, who then throw the Gravemind into a eternal captivity while the Precursors partake in the Great Journey (whatever that is), forever leaving the Prisoner behind. The Prisoner, gone insane over the millions of years of isolation, convinces himself the Forerunners and humanity are the reason for his captivity, and begins plotting his escape and revenge on his enemies.

This would explain the Mind's hatred towards the Forerunners and humanity (eventually), his story to Didact saying the Forerunners wiped out the Precursors (when they really went on the Journey, as Didact says they do in the Terminals), and what the Mind means by saying "Child of my enemy, why have you come?"

Its already been established that the Forerunners tend to believe the Precursors created humanity as well, so we need an explanation for that line. It'll also explain why the Precursors locked up one of their own, the one who happened to bear the message "this [the Flood] is our answer."


I like this theory, I'm not averse to certain more radical factions inventing the Flood, or the Prisoner doing, it makes a lot of sense.

I think that from the way the Domain acted in Cryptum, and how Born heard voices through it, that the Precursors may have ascended on the "Great Journey" and the Domain is now where their minds or whatever reside, it'd make sense.

And not particularly for anyone, just throwing this out there. I don't think the Prisoner's line necessarily means the Precursors made the Flood, as lines like his "this is our answer" have been used in other stories by characters referring to events beyond their control, or just not having directly to do with them, being the answer to their problem, or being the metaphorical method of their vengeance. I think it's probably the same situation with the Prisoner.

  • 04.05.2011 7:27 PM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Strike Force
Posted by: grey101

"Child of my enemy why have you come here? i offer you no forgiveness, a fathers sins..pass to his son"

That was said by the all meaning gravemind himself child of my enemy mind you that the gravemind has consumed millions of forerunners and has thier knowledge, i would also like to think that he would be able to tap into the geas of humanity by consuming them also, meaning he would have full knowledge of everything.


I was always under the impression that the gravemind that talked to Master Chief was formed after the Covenant and Humans came into contact with the flood on the first halo. I thought Captain Keyes became a part of the proto-gravemind that became the fully formed gravemind.

Although it seems like the humans and forerunners (side note, I think of forerunners as "space elves" after reading Cryptum) were created by the precursors, well at least the forerunners didn't create the humans, the humans were devolved, and its possible that as the forerunners faded out of existence in our galaxy they designated the humans as their successors.

Think of it as twin brothers, one was devolved into a baby, and as the other died it made the other its adopted son, if you will.

So to look at the gravemind quote, this is how I view it:

"[adopted] Child of my enemy why have you come here? i offer you no forgiveness, a fathers sins (forerunner)..pass to his son (humanity)"




1. That proto-gravemind didn't get to fully mature since you destroyed halo. this gravemind is on installation 5 not 4.

2. i don't know what you mean by space elves, but if your thinking of them being short they are taller than the humans.

3. The forerunners are still alive we just aren't sure if they are in this galaxy or not. And don't get me started on the fact we might understand the context "reclaimer" is being used under.

  • 04.06.2011 8:20 AM PDT
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Posted by: grey101
1. That proto-gravemind didn't get to fully mature since you destroyed halo. this gravemind is on installation 5 not 4.

Oh right, duh.


2. i don't know what you mean by space elves, but if your thinking of them being short they are taller than the humans.

Nah I was thinking of LOTR elves, my bad. They live longer and are stronger than humans. Also they've got that weird mind link thing going on.


3. The forerunners are still alive we just aren't sure if they are in this galaxy or not. And don't get me started on the fact we might understand the context "reclaimer" is being used under.

Well yeah. Although we're both speculating with the limited knowledge we have of course. I'm banking on the post devolved human-forerunner relationship to prove my view of the quote. Also based off of how the right humans could interact with forerunner technology, like Johnson and the Chief, I'd put that as a notch in my favor. Also, within the context of the game it would make more sense if the Gravemind was referring to humans and forerunners.

  • 04.06.2011 3:48 PM PDT