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  • Subject: Forerunner Oracle-Class
Subject: Forerunner Oracle-Class

Ignore my gamertag. It's actually Dragonzzilla.

A Forerunner Oracle-Class would be perhaps the most advanced piece of Forerunner technology. It would be able to "predict" the future with complex math.

Forerunners used it to prevent attacks and devastating events.

- - -

Could this be possible?

  • 04.13.2011 3:27 PM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

Did you get this out of cryptum or something or did you just make this up and are asking about it?

possible, yes. you could say MB was along the lines of this

  • 04.13.2011 3:30 PM PDT

Ignore my gamertag. It's actually Dragonzzilla.

MB?

  • 04.13.2011 3:37 PM PDT

~Thomsn0w


Posted by: Dragonzzilla
MB?

Mendicant Bias.

  • 04.13.2011 3:40 PM PDT

We already know that quantum mechanics is random. With slipspace and stuff like "the glow" factored in, I don't think even the Forerunners can create a deterministic model. And then there's the fundamental problem that computing the behavior of n particles faster than reality would require a computer consisting of more than n particles. And the fact that the computer itself is a part of the reality it has to simulate, creating an infinite recursion loop.

[Edited on 04.13.2011 3:44 PM PDT]

  • 04.13.2011 3:42 PM PDT

Ignore my gamertag. It's actually Dragonzzilla.

He told [the Covenant] the knowledge he knew I thought. I don't think he could predict the future.

  • 04.13.2011 3:42 PM PDT

I thought Medicant Bias and Offensive Bias were Oracle-Class AI.


I don't think it's possible to predict the future through quantum mechanics unless the computer is slipspace, then it isn't technically "part" of reality. We can definably make a computer that can give us the odds of something happening though.

  • 04.13.2011 5:21 PM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Gruntpocalypto
I thought Medicant Bias and Offensive Bias were Oracle-Class AI.




Mendicant Bias was a contender class AI (first of it's kind) built to follow out contradicting orders. It was made to study and fight the flood.

Offensive Bias is also a contender class, and was made to specifically defeat Mendicant bias.


* It is the covenant the call Forerunner AI Oracles.

[Edited on 04.13.2011 5:28 PM PDT]

  • 04.13.2011 5:27 PM PDT

I am Field Master Avu Med 'Telcam, Servant of the Abiding Truth, and I have many brothers.

A god who creates tools is still a god. It is not for us to impose qualifications upon the divine or presume to guess its intentions.

Probability and logical thinking to provide a possible plan of events is the closest thing anyone can come to predicting the future. I believe Mendicant Bias, Offensive Bias and the other Metarch-class Ancilla were capable of doing this.

  • 04.13.2011 9:26 PM PDT
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Not possible as quantum mechanics don't allow it to happen. to predict events you would need a computer that calculates the whole universe (which also is impossible) every 1^-46 seconds as 1^-45 seconds is the Planck time. Planck time is also the smallest possible time frame in the universe. That's why a computer simply can't be faster than light.

Predicting events is still somewhat possible but you can't predict happenings accurately further than maybe few milliseconds and even that would need a massive amount of calculations and even then it wouldn't be 100% accurate.

Technically anything more than maybe two minutes is just impossibe. That would probably need performance of 10^googolplex yottaFLOPS which is practically impossible.

  • 04.13.2011 10:18 PM PDT
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The gamertag linked to this account is an old one. My new one is James Voe Guy.

If they had that, they probably wouldn't have been owned by the flood haha. I can imagine the moment the Forerunner Oracle ran the math on that one. His words would have been "WTF?"

  • 04.14.2011 1:02 AM PDT


Posted by: Dustin 6047
Should I explain?
But beware, paradoxes don't end and I don't want to spend the rest of life or matter of fact, eternity writing on this thread.[/quote]

Okay. Here we go.

So imagine the beginning of the Universe or the big bang atleast since we don't know what happened before that; approximately 14 billion years ago. There was all the matter and energy stored in one single grain of dust (size is a fat guess). Then, of course, it goes 'ablooooom' and all of it is released in every direction for an eternity (maybe - maybe not an eternity). Okay lets jump forward to the time of the Forerunners. What they can do is plot out all and every single atom and energy joule to predict where it will go. And so they can predict the energy and transfors in another beings brain or whatever that individual has to figure out what those transfors will make that individual do.

Now how that turns into a paradox...
Well, the AI that does all these calculations will also have to predict its own thoughts for it to be accurate. This isn't possible since consiousness always changes on what you experience. If you see all the data come in you may think something of that which would ruin everything, in fact there's no way stopping you from thinking of it. The only thing that could do that would have to be a non-concious machine, but for a machine to have all the energy and matter predicted and plotted out to somehow convert that information to something you and me would understand would also be impossible.

But maybe not and maybe this isn't a paradox now that I'm laying this all out.

You decide.

Maybe I'll try and restate this in a different way which, while not quite as rigid as it could be, hopefully gets the point across intuitively.

-Assume that a person is in possession of a button and perfect prediction machine which is never wrong. The person is able to push the button up to one time per day.
-One day, the person decides that they will ask this perfect prediction machine whether or not they will push the button the next day, and decides that they will do the opposite of what the machine says.
-Note that, now, anything the machine says will be wrong. However, we said in our assumptions that the machine is never wrong. So, we have a contradiction.

It, at least intuitively, seems that the only way that the truth machine could possibly be assured to be correct is if the person reading the truth machine never used the information to have any sort in causal interference that could possibly counteract that which was predicted. In other words, if the universe is deterministic, then a truth machine could work fine as long as nothing whatsoever read off of it.

Feels strongly related to Godel's Incompleteness Theorem, too. Hmm.

//=====

Of course, I might be totally missing something. It would be interesting to learn where people have looked deeper into this stuff.

[Edited on 04.14.2011 1:37 AM PDT]

  • 04.14.2011 1:36 AM PDT
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Posted by: Tupolev

Posted by: Dustin 6047
Should I explain?
But beware, paradoxes don't end and I don't want to spend the rest of life or matter of fact, eternity writing on this thread.[/quote]

Okay. Here we go.

So imagine the beginning of the Universe or the big bang atleast since we don't know what happened before that; approximately 14 billion years ago. There was all the matter and energy stored in one single grain of dust (size is a fat guess). Then, of course, it goes 'ablooooom' and all of it is released in every direction for an eternity (maybe - maybe not an eternity). Okay lets jump forward to the time of the Forerunners. What they can do is plot out all and every single atom and energy joule to predict where it will go. And so they can predict the energy and transfors in another beings brain or whatever that individual has to figure out what those transfors will make that individual do.

Now how that turns into a paradox...
Well, the AI that does all these calculations will also have to predict its own thoughts for it to be accurate. This isn't possible since consiousness always changes on what you experience. If you see all the data come in you may think something of that which would ruin everything, in fact there's no way stopping you from thinking of it. The only thing that could do that would have to be a non-concious machine, but for a machine to have all the energy and matter predicted and plotted out to somehow convert that information to something you and me would understand would also be impossible.

But maybe not and maybe this isn't a paradox now that I'm laying this all out.

You decide.

Maybe I'll try and restate this in a different way which, while not quite as rigid as it could be, hopefully gets the point across intuitively.

-Assume that a person is in possession of a button and perfect prediction machine which is never wrong. The person is able to push the button up to one time per day.
-One day, the person decides that they will ask this perfect prediction machine whether or not they will push the button the next day, and decides that they will do the opposite of what the machine says.
-Note that, now, anything the machine says will be wrong. However, we said in our assumptions that the machine is never wrong. So, we have a contradiction.

It, at least intuitively, seems that the only way that the truth machine could possibly be assured to be correct is if the person reading the truth machine never used the information to have any sort in causal interference that could possibly counteract that which was predicted. In other words, if the universe is deterministic, then a truth machine could work fine as long as nothing whatsoever read off of it.

Feels strongly related to Godel's Incompleteness Theorem, too. Hmm.

//=====

Of course, I might be totally missing something. It would be interesting to learn where people have looked deeper into this stuff.

You are totally right. As perfect prediction is technically time travelling it would always cause a paradox. You can't change the future or past.

  • 04.14.2011 3:17 AM PDT

You are totally right. As perfect prediction is technically time travelling it would always cause a paradox. You can't change the future or past.
This is totally true. You can never change the future or the past but I believe you can prolong all things.

  • 04.14.2011 6:47 AM PDT

Ignore my gamertag. It's actually Dragonzzilla.

Well. I meant possible futures.

  • 04.14.2011 6:45 PM PDT
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Don't be stupid like I was! Check to see what that Forum Ninja is saying to you!

"I may not like what you say, but I will defend your right to the death to say it!"

"Tolerance is a virtue, and virtue builds character."
-Onyx81

Oracle is a term the Covenant used.

MB and OB are both Contender-class AI

  • 04.14.2011 6:59 PM PDT

I am Field Master Avu Med 'Telcam, Servant of the Abiding Truth, and I have many brothers.

A god who creates tools is still a god. It is not for us to impose qualifications upon the divine or presume to guess its intentions.

Posted by: Onyx81
Oracle is a term the Covenant used.

MB and OB are both Contender-class AI
MB was a Metarch class AI.

  • 04.14.2011 7:17 PM PDT

"Concise and devoid of elegance...what I have come to expect from human communication"-Endless Summer


Posted by: Gruntpocalypto
I thought Medicant Bias and Offensive Bias were Oracle-Class AI.


Contender Class A.I.

  • 04.14.2011 9:31 PM PDT