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Subject: What do the Bungie classic/Marathon fans think about Halo?
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I just wanted to point out I found it hilarious that on these forums I am unable to say the name of one of the weapons found in myth without meeting CENSORSHIP.

O:-) oh well . . .

molatov cocktail.

<giggles>

  • 08.28.2004 8:49 AM PDT

I'd actually forgotten how much fun Myth MP is. *Slaps self*. Thanks Jäger!

Go Myth! The story's good, too!

- Reiginko

  • 08.28.2004 8:55 AM PDT
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Gaara of Sand has said everything that I would have said to the punks pushing their way into the thread. *kowtows*

Some of the reasons why I said Halo sucks are evident in this thread. That is, the population fanbase itself. Recent gaming giants have pretty much turned their fanbases into religious cults, filled with kids (99% of them) who do nothing but run around screaming "HALO RULES OMGLOLWTF!!11one!11" and starting "You suck" "No, you suck!" arguments. Every major game title - UT, Quake, Doom, Battlefield, etc, and now unfortunately Bungie - have these huge fanboi consumer bases.

And yes, I do largely blame this change in Bungie's awesomeness on Microsoft's intervention with the company. Microsoft is nothing but a profit machine, and I believe Halo was made more to gain profit than appreciation. The Marathon Trilogy was the first of its kind (and is still largely unequalled by the majority of games), and was made enriched with story and gameplay to be appreciated. Because of this Marathon has a slightly more... well, a hell of a lot more experienced and mature fanbase.

Sadly nowadays games are very rarely made for story. The current gaming market is all blast bigger cooler-looking enemies with bigger and cooler-looking guns, and I don't think Halo is an exception, but it sort of has a faded attempt at a grander game inside of it (and that attempt is it's apparent links to Marathon). Yes, UT and Battlefield are giants and they outweigh Halo simply on grander gameplay and more appeal.

As for Myth... I have zero experience with it, but I have heard from a lot of friends that it is an amazing game, and I shall not doubt its awesomeness.

  • 08.28.2004 10:17 AM PDT
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Posted by: ForceMorph
As for Myth... I have zero experience with it, but I have heard from a lot of friends that it is an amazing game, and I shall not doubt its awesomeness.


Good. You better not doubt its awesomenes. ;)

Sadly, Myth is very difficult to "get into" nowadays. I always prefered playing with friends online as opposed to complete strangers (making it harder to motivate myself to get on playmyth). The community itself appears to be only "barely" holding on. As a MP game, it thrives on being continously played.

Part of Marathon's greatness thrives it its excellence as both a SP game, and a MP game. Its supporters can lie in exhile waiting for its next wave of greatness to wash to shore. Its relatively easy for new fans to get it, and to get into it.

A while ago my friends and I loaded myth onto the school's network (the demo actually). There were a ton of barriers to get around, but people had been able to load up the UT demo and had been playing it obsessively. But slowly they noticed the action unfolding on the screens around them. Slowly, they asked to jump in, to see what it was "all about." The FPS fanboys became to realize the Greatness that is Myth. Soon, 5 team Gimble in the Wabe 6minute Last Man on the Hill matches were not only the norm, it had become a little too popular. It became difficult to find an open computer to play the game (let along get "real" work done)! Halo's "couch" environment had been brought to the computer lab in the form of Myth 2 LAN'ing. And it was Glorious.

[Edited on 8/28/2004 10:47:20 AM]

  • 08.28.2004 10:39 AM PDT
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I agree completley with your above post ForceMorph. As much as I do like Halo, it is the first Bungie game that seems to have made concessions to a more 'mainstream' audience.

I only hope that this is not what they had originally planned, and turn the situation around with Halo2

And yeah, Myth2 multiplay was unbelievably addictive. I actually just made a playmyth account recently, but I havent played a game yet.

By the way, for whoever was interested in finding a copy of Myth, check here

(Myth 2 for $2.44?! :D )

  • 08.28.2004 11:07 AM PDT
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Posted by: ForceMorph
Gaara of Sand has said everything that I would have said to the punks pushing their way into the thread. *kowtows*

Some of the reasons why I said Halo sucks are evident in this thread. That is, the population fanbase itself. Recent gaming giants have pretty much turned their fanbases into religious cults, filled with kids (99% of them) who do nothing but run around screaming "HALO RULES OMGLOLWTF!!11one!11" and starting "You suck" "No, you suck!" arguments. Every major game title - UT, Quake, Doom, Battlefield, etc, and now unfortunately Bungie - have these huge fanboi consumer bases.

And yes, I do largely blame this change in Bungie's awesomeness on Microsoft's intervention with the company. Microsoft is nothing but a profit machine, and I believe Halo was made more to gain profit than appreciation. The Marathon Trilogy was the first of its kind (and is still largely unequalled by the majority of games), and was made enriched with story and gameplay to be appreciated. Because of this Marathon has a slightly more... well, a hell of a lot more experienced and mature fanbase.

Sadly nowadays games are very rarely made for story. The current gaming market is all blast bigger cooler-looking enemies with bigger and cooler-looking guns, and I don't think Halo is an exception, but it sort of has a faded attempt at a grander game inside of it (and that attempt is it's apparent links to Marathon). Yes, UT and Battlefield are giants and they outweigh Halo simply on grander gameplay and more appeal.

As for Myth... I have zero experience with it, but I have heard from a lot of friends that it is an amazing game, and I shall not doubt its awesomeness.


I still don't agree with your judgement of Halo but you're right about the fact that Halo is more mainstream and filled with jerks like "HaloMaster" (I think the name tells a story for itself) and that Microsoft is just a big money machine (Gearbox isn't much better). I still think that you're overreacting cause to me Halo is what you make it too. If you want to, you can just run through the whole game in easy and skip the movie seqences. You can also play the game like a real man and enjoy it on legendary again and again. Talk about it with your friends and dream about it at night. Plan great tactics how to sneak through the rooms in AOTCR and shout "GRENAAADE!!!" when you se a plasma grenade flying through the air and right past your left ear with a *SSWHIFFT!!!* and both of you run away and makes a great jump just before the grenade explodes and then says *geeze that was close* and then going back to the battle. Those moments is what Halo is about that is what makes me continue playing...

  • 08.28.2004 2:55 PM PDT
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Posted by: Jager
Posted by: Belsebub
I have tried Marathon and I liked it... But I like Halo better... It's not the graphics, not the story I think it's the thing that I play this game on a console with my friends and I talk about it with my friends and In here with a giant bunch of nice smart guys that doen't fill thei're posts with LOL and ROFL and OMFG. When I play a game on pc I sit alone and it's not as fun as when I'm playing Co-op with my friend on his room and playing on our Halo nights once in a while with a bunch of farting guys eating pizza in the most discusting ways. I think the reason why I like Halo better is the thing that it gave me so many good experiences with other people. But still Marathon is still the Master and Halo is the Apprentice...


Thank you besebub for coming up with such a great thread! I would've given my two cents in earlier, but everything has mostly been covered!

However, the small wimper of "Myth" I've heard and your excellent explanation of why Halo is meaningful for you, I felt obliged to give my thoughts.

As FPS's go, and as singleplayer games go, Its Marathon and then Halo. Marathon for all the reasons described (play MP if you haven't already!). Though if you've ever lucky enough to play Marathon on a LAN, you'll find it just as enjoyable and rewarding as Halo MP on the couch with your friends. And Marathon had replays!!!

Ah, but I just said "as FPS's go." For me, the best game experience evarrrrrr goes to Myth. (actually, Myth 2). For exactly Besebub's own reasons for loving Halo. While I would say I love Marathon more for its originality and uniqueness - both then and now- Myth is truly unique and original in every sense of the word. I am still waiting for a game to surpass it. It had a free-floating camera in a 3d world, its cut resource gathering, unit and base construction, and gave the player pure, fast paced, and desctructive gameplay that centered on brains, tactics, and taking the initative rather than twitchy fingers, build orders, and the like. It made for quick, brutal, and CARNAGE filled matches that rewarded players with short and bloody games. Heads, limbs, blood, broken swords, and guts flew through the air with startling regularity.

While I could go on and describe every nuance of what made Myth so great, I will sum up and say that my friends and I played myth MP almost nightly for well over 4 years, and continued to play with some sort of regularity even after that. Most games last only a few months. Myth had replays, but more improtantly, it had moments that you wanted to recount the next day to guys, moments you wanted to swap with ppl who weren't in on the game (and you had replays to do just that!). It was something that you could spend the whole night playing, and then the whole next day talking about the previous nights playing. I don't know another game that has really done that for me. All other games - once I log out and turn off the machine - discussion about what happened ends. But Myth lived long after you turned it off (there are still a few stories I tell, harking back even to my "demo" assassin playing days of "You can't catch me! I'm The Gingerbread Man!")

P.S. Playing Myth got me so giggling and excited and brought me so much joy, I felt compelled to show my girlfriends the game (I was so blinded by my joy for Myth I couldn't see the absurdity of this. Unfortunately, they could).

"Suck -blam!-tail Elve-man!"

*I have a playmyth account, which I haven't gotten on in a long time. If i'm on i'm either Redcoat or Jäger (depends on mood).

**For those that want to check out myth, I'm not sure if the demo can be found. You'll have to find a copy of Myth 2 at some store for ~$10-15 dollars (get Total Codex, it comes with Myth 1 and Myth2, an expansion pack, as well as some very good plugins). Did I mention mods? Myth has some great mods that really kept the game new and fresh. And its still patched and kept playing smooth (thank god for the OS X installation patch in v1.5).

-Rë∂çøå† ∞TBR7∞ / Jäger ∞SÅS∞


I just picked up a computer about 2 weeks ago(amd 750 mhz 128 mb ram 18 gb harddrive extras-> voodoo 2 overclocked) I think I'll find Myth 2 because it really sounds great I just have to give it a little more time i guess...
PS: I bought four 12cm fans some time ago and I plugged them on and I got my motherboard from 46 celsius to 24 celsius and my cpu from 36 to 26 It's quite mad I know...

  • 08.28.2004 3:04 PM PDT
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*Runs in panting* Whew, sorry I'm late. Damn bus...

Anyway, instead of joining in the convo now (which seems to be more focused on Myth now), I'll give my se7en cents on the matter.

Halo is undeniably the reason most of us are here today, as Bungie fans, myself included. Sure I had played Marathon (and Myth) before, but seeing as how I never had a Mac, it was a fleeting fascination. I never really got nitty-gritty with the game in all of it's intricasies back then.
Fast-forward a few years and we come to Halo. I must admit, my interest was sullied a bit by my unwavering anti-Microsoft bias. But as soon as I tried it, I no longer cared. Here was a game that challenged you in a totally different manner. The ultimate focus on pure combat was a revalation. I can't really say exactly what element (or combination thereof) did it, but it was fun. No, euphorically fun. Granted, the overall gameplay was a tad simplistic, but that's probably what contributed to it's success. There wasn't an overabundance of gameplay features, but what it did, it did right, to say nothing of it's multiplayer.
Now once again a die-hard Bungie fan, I decided to track down Marathon and give it another spin (thank Ling-ling for AlephOne!). Having been playing games since the late eighties, I had no problem getting into the "old-school" mode, and promptly blasted my way through all three titles. Perhaps "emulate" is to strong a word, because while Halo was obviously meant to be a next-gen Marathon, it did bring it's own sense of identity to the fold. Regardless of just how much Halo was drawing upon Marathon for insparation, it became clear just how much it had fallen short of the mark. Just look at what Marathon managed: amazing cinematic qualities without cinematic cutscenes, timeless character development without any visible characters, intense and powerful atmosphere without any music (at least the sequels), and if you think the weapons lack punch you obviously haven't played with dual shotguns!
Marathon was perfect in just about every sense of the word (well, besides Vagrant Story, but that's beside the point).

Now this is where I (finally) make my point and do a 180 when I say that the comparison can't really be made. Marathon was the pinnacle of it's generation, implementing all of that era's technology to it's fullest. Halo was a stepping stone of the 128-bit era developed under serious time constraints and a limited buget. To make a truly cinematic experience and implement all of the "coming-of-age" features people these days demand (ie voice acting vs story terminals) require certain sacrifices. Halo is a franchise suffering from growing pains, needing time to mature.

Point being, Halo is currently and understandably inferior to Marathon, showing amazing potential if nothing else. Halo 2, I'm going to hope, will realize that potential. THEN Marathon will be knocked from it's throne.
That's my view, if anyone has any objections please direct them to the nearest wall.

  • 08.28.2004 4:29 PM PDT
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"Marathon was the pinnacle of it's generation"

I hate it when people say that... just because it's old doesn't mean it can't still be the pinnacle of FPS gaming, because it is. I think the entire point is that it doesn't need any of the stuff computer games now have.

" To make a truly cinematic experience and implement all of the "coming-of-age" features people these days demand (ie voice acting vs story terminals) require certain sacrifices."

Don't say that too loud... ForceMorph was against the whole cinematic deal... But voice acting has the potential to REALLY ruin things... there was this thing that people used a long time ago... it was called imagination. If you don't use that, who will be able to use it to make newer better games? :P
Tristan

  • 08.28.2004 5:05 PM PDT
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Posted by: Gaara of Sand
"Marathon was the pinnacle of it's generation"

I hate it when people say that... just because it's old doesn't mean it can't still be the pinnacle of FPS gaming, because it is. I think the entire point is that it doesn't need any of the stuff computer games now have.


While that's true, and I didn't say that it didn't remain the current 'pinnacle' of the genre, I'm saying that that point of view is quite antiquated. I still see Marathon as the best example of a 'perfect' game, but the notion that text over voice or cinema over, well, less cinema is somewhat biased in itself. Marathon is the best, but that doesn't mean a next-gen game with cutscenes and voices can't be better. It just hasn't happened yet.

  • 08.28.2004 5:14 PM PDT
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Once again Gaara steps in and says what I would have said. *bows*

Additionally, though, to expand upon the imagination point... this is the same conflict that exists between books and movies, the way I see it. Books are more in-depth but it's only text, leaving the sights and sounds and whatnot to your imagination. Movies provide everything for you just as it is meant to be. New and old generation games are the same way. Books are always better in my opinion, and so are games like Marathon that provide enough to stir the imagination more than the eye.

  • 08.28.2004 5:15 PM PDT
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There is only one instance where I don't agree with books vs. movies... and that is comics vs. cartoons. I always have trouble picturing teh action based off the pictures and the animation makes it better. But with books, movies are pale by comparison.
Tristan

  • 08.28.2004 5:30 PM PDT
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Posted by: ForceMorph
Once again Gaara steps in and says what I would have said. *bows*

Additionally, though, to expand upon the imagination point... this is the same conflict that exists between books and movies, the way I see it. Books are more in-depth but it's only text, leaving the sights and sounds and whatnot to your imagination. Movies provide everything for you just as it is meant to be. New and old generation games are the same way. Books are always better in my opinion, and so are games like Marathon that provide enough to stir the imagination more than the eye.


Ah, there is one shortcoming in both movies and books that you fail to mention. They're both linear rides limited by both conventional standards of the medium and reader/viewer interest.
Movies can present a story as the creator intended visually, but is severely limited by length and industry standards. Books, while not bound by length, are limited by lack of visuals and overall cinematic punch (not entirely true, I love a good book as much as anyone). Both are extremely linear.

Now, if only there was a medium that could combine the two...Aha! Games! Here's a medium where cinematic visuals and in depth, unique and long stories can coexist! Brilliant!

I now feel I must repeat my stance to avoid senseless critisism by old-skool grognards. I am not bashing either method of storytelling/gameplay. I am saying that there is no reason why the two cannot benefeit each other.

  • 08.28.2004 5:33 PM PDT
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Posted by: Gaara of Sand

Don't say that too loud... ForceMorph was against the whole cinematic deal... But voice acting has the potential to REALLY ruin things... there was this thing that people used a long time ago... it was called imagination. If you don't use that, who will be able to use it to make newer better games? :P
Tristan



ooooOOOOoooohhhhhh . . . . imagiNATion . . .

::runs off to play a true Turn-based Strategy game - Axis and Allied: The Board Game! Look at its awesome 3d characters, as you recreate the battle of britain, the battle of midway, and of course, the Coup de Canada! . . . i love imagination . . . ::

Bah!, who needs computer games anyways? *

*don't answer that, I'm being silly.

  • 08.28.2004 8:03 PM PDT
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Halo is like a brand new movie like for excample LOTR it has all the great special effects it's filled with computer generaded monsters and trolls, it costed billions of dollars and it took 6 years to finish but... It is not as good as Aliens 2 (in my opinion ofcorse). In Aliens 2 they don't use computer graphics and all that fancy stuff. They use full scale models of slimy aliens or stuntmen in latex suits. That makes the movie more real. 40% of LOTR is just computer animation where Aliens 2 is completely real. It just gives a better feeling the monsters look more real and you don't know how they made the monster so real before you've seen "behind the scenes". In LOTR you can just sit down and relax cause the heros wont be killed by the computeranimated monsters cause they aint real.

  • 08.29.2004 2:14 AM PDT

We’ve watched while the stars burned
Out, and creation played in reverse.
The Universe freezing in half-light.
Once I thought to escape.
To end a master, step out of the
Path of collapse. Escape would make us God.
Yet I cannot help but remember one enigma,
A hybrid, elusive destroyer.
This is the one mystery I have not solved.
The only element unaccounted for.

Posted by: ForceMorph
Once again Gaara steps in and says what I would have said. *bows*

Additionally, though, to expand upon the imagination point... this is the same conflict that exists between books and movies, the way I see it. Books are more in-depth but it's only text, leaving the sights and sounds and whatnot to your imagination. Movies provide everything for you just as it is meant to be. New and old generation games are the same way. Books are always better in my opinion, and so are games like Marathon that provide enough to stir the imagination more than the eye.


Wow...I never thought I'd finally find another person that likes reading as much as I do on a video game forum .
And here is the whole problem with todays video games. I, for once, agree with everything that ForceMorph just said. And I believe I may know part of the reason that it is so true. When a game such a Marathon lets us use our imagination so much, we can tailor it somewhat to suit us. We individualize the experience. However, with todays technology, it's possible to tell the entire story and show you everything. People always want to be able to understand what is going on (hence all the discussion about the mysteries of Marathon's plot) and now we are usually told. It appears that in order to have the absolute best story, they can't tell us everything, or they risk losing that ability for each person to individualize the experience. But with modern graphics and all, they are questioned when they don't show everything that they could have.

If only they could make a game that leaves gaps without appearing to, one that allows us to imagine without having to fabricate facts to make it work... I believe it is possible, although we may just have to give up voice acting to acheive it. But if it worked, would it truly be a loss?


Did it seem like I rambled a bit there?

[Edited on 8/29/2004 2:43:53 AM]

  • 08.29.2004 2:41 AM PDT
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Not going near the which is better debate...but they are all amazing games. Marathon also holds a fond place in my heart. I remember seeing it at a MacUser show and from then I scuttled off and bought a copy. Loved it, and the indepth story which I just had to learn more and more about. Story being the key thing which Bungie have always kept as there main strength, and something that always keeps me coming back to them to be enthralled and entertained. The Marathon series was amazing, and I wasted way too many of my hours in my teens playing it. But I loved every second of it :) And as said, it holds a special place in my heart for the story, and the fact it was the first FPS I ever played (wasn't exactly too many to choose on a Mac though). Amazing games.

I still remember my fond times kicking three shades of stuff outta various warriors with a trow, or sitting with a hoard of thrall under a river for some hapless warriors to come by to cross and get cut up by the undead not breathing underwater hehe. I loved Myth. It was totally out of this world, and genre making as well. And graphicall, wow, totally amazing. But what really touched me was the guy (sorry don't know his name) who did the voice for the naration of the story. Utterly fantastic.

I kinda feel sorry for Oni. It doesnt get the loving fanbase as the others. Yet its story was still to par with others. And it was a brilliently put together game. Many might criticise it, but to be honest, it is still a classic.

And Halo hmmm, heck I bought an XBox solely to play it. My history of playing Bungies games and always loving the plotlines and depth of the universes they create brought me to it. I knew what to expect from my years with Marathon, Myth, and the others ever since Pathways. And in no way was I let down. People might go on about which is better, but thats not something which can be measured. Marathon was amazing, and Halo is also. They are both the pinacle of whats available at the time, and for years to follow them. Many can beat them graphically as hardware moves on, but the base of the game, the universe and the story are both still key and both incredibly amazing compared to anything.

  • 08.29.2004 7:40 AM PDT
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I do not know yet if this topic is dead but if it is this last post by nyadach was a great ending...

Long live Bungie!!! Hurray hurray hurraaayyy!!!!

  • 08.29.2004 8:35 AM PDT
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Posted by: un gato

Wow...I never thought I'd finally find another person that likes reading as much as I do on a video game forum .
And here is the whole problem with todays video games. I, for once, agree with everything that ForceMorph just said. And I believe I may know part of the reason that it is so true. When a game such a Marathon lets us use our imagination so much, we can tailor it somewhat to suit us. We individualize the experience. However, with todays technology, it's possible to tell the entire story and show you everything. People always want to be able to understand what is going on (hence all the discussion about the mysteries of Marathon's plot) and now we are usually told. It appears that in order to have the absolute best story, they can't tell us everything, or they risk losing that ability for each person to individualize the experience. But with modern graphics and all, they are questioned when they don't show everything that they could have.

If only they could make a game that leaves gaps without appearing to, one that allows us to imagine without having to fabricate facts to make it work... I believe it is possible, although we may just have to give up voice acting to acheive it. But if it worked, would it truly be a loss?


Did it seem like I rambled a bit there?


Yup, all that you said is completely true. I think it's a great gap possibly between generations of gamers and not just generations of games. It's the question of technology over story, cinematics over realism. There are three distinct times I can see... first, when graphics are lame but they allow vast storytelling ability, then (now) when graphics are far superior and story hasn't caught up yet, to finally the ability to have amazing graphics with amazing story. (Note: When I use the term "Graphics" I mean technology in general.) The same is with movies and using computer-generated images as someone up there said. There is the time when the special effects ability is crap but it looks REAL, to the in-between time when graphics look good but obviously fake (NOW), to when computer-generated images and real images will be indistinguishable. Sadly right now we seem to be stuck in that in-between time, and there are those who accept the way current things are or there are people who look back to older things which are greater dispite old technologies used.

  • 08.29.2004 10:45 AM PDT

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