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Subject: [LONG THREAD] Let's fix Reach's canon errors!


Posted by: GOLD SKYCAP
The fact that people are too busy whining about Reach not being canon to try and tie together the loose ends that can be fixed is something that really irks me.

For example, people are all OMG WHY REACH NO CALL FOR HELP.

The first mission you participate in depicts Reach being cut off from communication with the rest of the colonies, with a repair leading to function set at two weeks at the earliest.

if anything, this explains the lack of knowledge on the part of the rest of the UNSC of the attack on Reach.


the following missions take place in this dark period, and the fighting is regulated to only one specific province on Reach. It's very likely that the whole thing was kept as hush hush as possible. By the time the supercarrier has made it's presence known, the communications tower has been repaired and reinforcements are on their way to reach, to take out a single supercarrier accompanied by a few corvettes. At the time, There's no sign of an immediate full scale invasion. No need to sound the large scale invasion alarm yet, but they're on alert.

When the main invasion force arrives, that's when the canon gets stretched. Rather than getting pummeled to death in a matter of hours, Reach holds out for about two weeks against the main Covenant invasion. While I know that this contradicts the books, I find it more believable considering that Reach is essentially the fortress world of the UNSC.

The pillar of autumn is a difficult one to explain, and one I can't bend the facts I have around at the moment. My best guess is that during the chief's op, the PoA makes a quick trip to the surface to retrieve half of cortana, and hops back up to pick up John and Linda afterwards.

Honestly though, some things don't add up, but I think that there will be some work done to fix the issues in the future without completely changing the story.



I hadn't thought of Visegrad Relay being down affecting things much, that's actually a pretty good point. And considering that in the comic "A Fistful of Arrows" Noble Team had just dealt with a bunch of Insurrectionist activity there, ONI could pin it on them since it seemed to only be a small Covenant force they could easily dispatch with Reach's resources.

Actually things have started to be explained by 343i in the videos on Halo Waypoint, like for instance the Covenant ships that arrive on the 14th after the LNoS is destroyed isn't the Fleet of Particular Justice, it's a separate fleet, and the FoPJ arrives on the 30th like in the book, and that's when the UNSC are completely overwhelmed due to the second fleet's arrival. I agree, lasting two weeks is definitely more believable, especially considering pretty much the whole UNSC fleet was at Reach when it fell, and they had all of the ODPs and the 20+ SMACS, plus minds of brilliance similar to Keyes who could pull wins out of overwhelming odds.

On the subject of the Autumn, I think it probably came down to the surface after picking Chief, Linda, and Johnson's squad up from Reach Station Gamma. As there really isn't enough of a time gap between dropping them off and going to pick them up. Also the last level of Reach when you deliver the Cortana fragment is taking place in the late afternoon of the 30th, the Autumn probably came down after it picked the remnants of BLue Team and the marines up.

You thought up some pretty good explanations, and it's so very refreshing to see people trying to explain things to connect TFoR and Reach ^_^ No matter which side they lean towards more it's nice to see some new people stepping in and trying to work things out rather than sitting and complaining and not really doing anything. Good job SKYCAP, you've restored by hope in this forum a bit :D

  • 05.13.2011 9:48 AM PDT

sup if you don't like what I post you can go suck one this is the internet not Grammer class so GTFO Grammer N@ZI's

lets make this simple for the derp OP
GAME CANON > BOOK CANON DUMBASS

  • 05.13.2011 10:58 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: DERPZORZ
lets make this simple for the derp OP
GAME CANON > BOOK CANON DUMBASS


for the last time it really doesn't.


In the game you can shoot a grunt in the face with a plasma pistol and nothing happens. So we take that as canon?


No we don't.

  • 05.13.2011 11:07 AM PDT


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: DERPZORZ
lets make this simple for the derp OP
GAME CANON > BOOK CANON DUMBASS


for the last time it really doesn't.


In the game you can shoot a grunt in the face with a plasma pistol and nothing happens. So we take that as canon?


No we don't.


When people referrence this they are talking about story elements, not every single detail and facet of the game. If you want to complain about it, take it up with Bungie :/ They're the ones who laid out canon ranking like that when it comes to conflicting information, and as far as I know 343i has kept this policy.

  • 05.13.2011 11:19 AM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: grey101

Posted by: DERPZORZ
lets make this simple for the derp OP
GAME CANON > BOOK CANON DUMBASS


for the last time it really doesn't.


In the game you can shoot a grunt in the face with a plasma pistol and nothing happens. So we take that as canon?


No we don't.


When people referrence this they are talking about story elements, not every single detail and facet of the game. If you want to complain about it, take it up with Bungie :/ They're the ones who laid out canon ranking like that when it comes to conflicting information, and as far as I know 343i has kept this policy.


to be honest most of the time they aren't. And i wasn't complaining i was making a point but if you want me to come in this thread and post then i will happily do so. If i have any questions i will ask 343 not bungie.

  • 05.13.2011 11:23 AM PDT


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: grey101

Posted by: DERPZORZ
lets make this simple for the derp OP
GAME CANON > BOOK CANON DUMBASS


for the last time it really doesn't.


In the game you can shoot a grunt in the face with a plasma pistol and nothing happens. So we take that as canon?


No we don't.


When people referrence this they are talking about story elements, not every single detail and facet of the game. If you want to complain about it, take it up with Bungie :/ They're the ones who laid out canon ranking like that when it comes to conflicting information, and as far as I know 343i has kept this policy.


to be honest most of the time they aren't. And i wasn't complaining i was making a point but if you want me to come in this thread and post then i will happily do so. If i have any questions i will ask 343 not bungie.


Well seeing as I only see it in debates about the relevance or canonity (is that even a word? >_> ) of the story information in the games and books I think that's a safe assumption to make. I didn't really mean to say that you were complaining, I was merely pointing out that if you are going to complain about it then take it up with the people in charge or the ones who made the ranking system in question.

  • 05.13.2011 11:40 AM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

My only issue with creating our own ideas about how things fit together is that 343 will, yet again, not meet our expectations when it comes to their fixes. There is no reason to establish our own idea of canon when it is 343's job to repair it. It is a waste of time and effort. At least, that is why I think it is pointless. I prefer to clearly define all issues with the current canon and hope that 343 addresses all of them.

  • 05.13.2011 11:41 AM PDT
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Member of Bungie.net for nearly three years, still continuing!

Enjoy what you have and live on.

My gamertag is Elder Bias

In all way, I'm with Grey101.

In my opinion is that Halo Reach should be not considered as CANON because too many errors in their storyline and frankly, I don't think it can be fixed with simple retcon or something. All hands, it is lost cause, period.

You see, it's relatively realistic to see that Reach fell in a day (speaking of space combat) and some people would argue that Reach was fortress, so what? It doesn't make them stronger than covenant. Reasons why they lost is TECHNOLOGY! Covenant had shields, 3:1 kill ratio, plasma weaponry and larger number in the fleets that easily overwhelmed the UNSC Fleet, which it had 150 warships with 20 ODPs. Despite their superior numbers, technology, etc, they lost over 2/3rd of fleet, with complete annihilation of UNSC Fleet with 20 ODPs. Then, We can say that ground battles or skirmishes may lasted several weeks before it officially ended as remaining covenant warships began their typical plasma bombardment and glassing.

And, PoA being on land is IMPOSSIBLE because they're ALREADY in space in somewhere else, with OPERATION: RED FLAG until they got called back to Reach in AUGUST 30th. Besides, it's physically impossible for PoA to able to land or even, hover the atmosphere. It'd take INSANE amount of power to lift this HEAVY warship off of ground because of gravity factors!

Besides, I understand that some people would argue that if this game instead followed the TFoR would be boring because it really doesn't describe much about fall of reach. They are right, but it'd be in better hands if it followed the FIRST STRIKE which it effectively describes about fall of reach.

In my opinion; Halo: Reach would be better if IT followed the book canon, such as FIRST STRIKE. We would easily played as Red Team defending the generator stations or Blue Team on Gamma Station. Think of epic battle in space you would witness during on Gamma station... and, or NOBLE Team can be part of it as well, in some other parts of Reach.

And, someone said that Game Canon > Book Canon...

well, book canons actually helps game canon to better, since it expands their storyline. Guess what, book canon are way more fun and epic than game canon. Grey101 is correct, although. Game Canon does not override Book Canon because there's so many factors such as taking massive plasma hits and you miraculously don't die? That's for gameplay purposes, not book. Books describes how those people DIE from it, not magically heal itself and still fight like god. Why, it even describes SPARTANs can die too, unlike various games, you can easily be god. It's called pure gameplay in the game, not actual canon. But otherwise it's fun for all players who hadn't read the books and just play the game for fun. I do play those games for fun, but for once in lifetime, I would want to see a GOOD game with strong standing in canon and storyline plus good multiplayer, that's all.



[Edited on 05.13.2011 11:58 AM PDT]

  • 05.13.2011 11:53 AM PDT

I started up the heated debate on whether the SPARTAN-II in the cryo tube near the end of Reach is really Linda.
I created the Moa XING avatar pic.
Also I earned the All Star nameplate with this submission to Week 14 All Stars http://www.bungie.net/images/News/Inline11/bwu_0415/art/likea boss.jpg


Posted by: raganok99
And, PoA being on land is IMPOSSIBLE because they're ALREADY in space in somewhere else, with OPERATION: RED FLAG until they got called back to Reach in AUGUST 30th. Besides, it's physically impossible for PoA to able to land or even, hover the atmosphere. It'd take INSANE amount of power to lift this HEAVY warship off of ground because of gravity factors!


Didn't you read my OP? I stated the timeline of the POA from both the book and the game. There was no conflict in time when the POA landed on Reach.

Also it should be noted that the Fall of Reach book had several errors in it which have been retcon before Reach even came out. So Halo: Reach just established a few MINOR retcons.

[Edited on 05.13.2011 12:13 PM PDT]

  • 05.13.2011 12:11 PM PDT

Posted by: Raganok99
In my opinion is that Halo Reach should be not considered as CANON because too many errors in their storyline and frankly, I don't think it can be fixed with simple retcon or something. All hands, it is lost cause, period.


I suggest you loosen up a bit and go check out of some of the stuff posted by Kit_103, Cmdr DaeFaron, and DecepticonCobra, and countless others I've seen, they've all posted excellent theories and ideas that easily fix any of the conflicts, supposed or actual, between Reach and TFoR. And in any case, just because there are conflicts that need explaining does not mean that either TFoR or Reach need to be declared non-canon, that's just stupid.

You see, it's relatively realistic to see that Reach fell in a day (speaking of space combat) and some people would argue that Reach was fortress, so what? It doesn't make them stronger than covenant. Reasons why they lost is TECHNOLOGY! Covenant had shields, 3:1 kill ratio, plasma weaponry and larger number in the fleets that easily overwhelmed the UNSC Fleet, which it had 150 warships with 20 ODPs. Despite their superior numbers, technology, etc, they lost over 2/3rd of fleet, with complete annihilation of UNSC Fleet with 20 ODPs. Then, We can say that ground battles or skirmishes may lasted several weeks before it officially ended as remaining covenant warships began their typical plasma bombardment and glassing.

The UNSC had 20 SMACs not 20 OPDS, Reach had a ton of ODPs, I don't know how many, but I do know that the SMACs weren't their only form of Orbital Defense Platform. And the Covenant ships may have had better technology, but that does not assure them of an easy victory. Especially since with just the SMACs alone the odds are completely even (and that's not counting or factoring in the other ODPs yet) as the odds were about 2:1 in the Covenant's favor, however factoring in the SMACs significantly boosts the UNSC's odds of success, and then including the other ODPs present in the situation further boosts the UNSC's odds. So really counting all the UNSC's military assets present gives them a situation that is at the least as good as 3:1 odds UNSC favor.

And, PoA being on land is IMPOSSIBLE because they're ALREADY in space in somewhere else, with OPERATION: RED FLAG until they got called back to Reach in AUGUST 30th. Besides, it's physically impossible for PoA to able to land or even, hover the atmosphere. It'd take INSANE amount of power to lift this HEAVY warship off of ground because of gravity factors!

Actually the last level of Reach takes place on the 30th in the late afternoon, around 16:30 (that's 4:30 for those who don't understand military time) if I'm not mistaken. So it was not two places at once, it came down to Reach sometime after picking up the remnants of Blue Team and Johnson's squad at 6:15 in the morning. If you look at the last cutscene of Reach, it's never hovering in atmosphere on its own, the only time it was hovering it had those huge booster tugs on the side. Look at the size of those tug ships, they're pretty fricken big, and there are six of them if I'm not mistaken, more than enough power in those to lift the Autumn up off the ground and allow it to get going on its own.

Besides, I understand that some people would argue that if this game instead followed the TFoR would be boring because it really doesn't describe much about fall of reach. They are right, but it'd be in better hands if it followed the FIRST STRIKE which it effectively describes about fall of reach.

In my opinion; Halo: Reach would be better if IT followed the book canon, such as FIRST STRIKE. We would easily played as Red Team defending the generator stations or Blue Team on Gamma Station. Think of epic battle in space you would witness during on Gamma station... and, or NOBLE Team can be part of it as well, in some other parts of Reach.


I really have nothing to say to this because I can barely understand it.

The events of First Strike would be as boring as the events of TFoR, not too mention much to short, especially Blue Team's op, that would be short as hell.

And, someone said that Game Canon > Book Canon...

well, book canons actually helps game canon to better, since it expands their storyline. Guess what, book canon are way more fun and epic than game canon. Grey101 is correct, although. Game Canon does not override Book Canon because there's so many factors such as taking massive plasma hits and you miraculously don't die? That's for gameplay purposes, not book. Books describes how those people DIE from it, not magically heal itself and still fight like god. Why, it even describes SPARTANs can die too, unlike various games, you can easily be god. It's called pure gameplay in the game, not actual canon. But otherwise it's fun for all players who hadn't read the books and just play the game for fun. I do play those games for fun, but for once in lifetime, I would want to see a GOOD game with strong standing in canon and storyline plus good multiplayer, that's all.


Actually I think a game is more epic than a book can ever be, because you have the visual experience going on and you are directly taking part in the action, but that's just my opinion and you're welcome to differ in yours.

And another thing, gameplay and story are completely seperate elements. When people say the games have more bearing on canon than the books, they are not talking about single little facet of the game, they are talking about the cutscenes and the scripted events that take place during the game. And like I said to Grey, if you want to complain about it or say it's inefficient or inaccurate, take it up with Bungie. They're the ones who made the canon ranking system and said that when it comes to discrepancies between the games and the books the games take priority.

  • 05.13.2011 1:54 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: OrderedComa
I suggest you loosen up a bit and go check out of some of the stuff posted by Kit_103, Cmdr DaeFaron, and DecepticonCobra, and countless others I've seen, they've all posted excellent theories and ideas that easily fix any of the conflicts, supposed or actual, between Reach and TFoR. And in any case, just because there are conflicts that need explaining does not mean that either TFoR or Reach need to be declared non-canon, that's just stupid.

Unfortunately, they are nothing more than theories that are no better than fan-fiction. And the current game has basically re-written the book. So I would expect SIGNIFICANT changes in the re-release. Halo Reach will remain canon. The Fall of Reach as we know it will not.

  • 05.13.2011 2:40 PM PDT


Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: OrderedComa
I suggest you loosen up a bit and go check out of some of the stuff posted by Kit_103, Cmdr DaeFaron, and DecepticonCobra, and countless others I've seen, they've all posted excellent theories and ideas that easily fix any of the conflicts, supposed or actual, between Reach and TFoR. And in any case, just because there are conflicts that need explaining does not mean that either TFoR or Reach need to be declared non-canon, that's just stupid.

Unfortunately, they are nothing more than theories that are no better than fan-fiction. And the current game has basically re-written the book. So I would expect SIGNIFICANT changes in the re-release. Halo Reach will remain canon. The Fall of Reach as we know it will not.


"Basically rewritten the very little information about the actual groundside battle, which basically wasn't touched at all in TfoR."

  • 05.13.2011 2:57 PM PDT


Posted by: Oblivioh
I don't have a hard time accepting the craziness that is Halo's universe, but after playing Portal 2, I have a hard time accepting the craziness that is Half Life's universe.

  • 05.13.2011 5:33 PM PDT


Posted by: DERPZORZ
lets make this simple for the derp OP
GAME CANON > BOOK CANON DUMBASS


-___-

[Edited on 05.13.2011 5:37 PM PDT]

  • 05.13.2011 5:36 PM PDT
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Member of Bungie.net for nearly three years, still continuing!

Enjoy what you have and live on.

My gamertag is Elder Bias

Meh, I have my own opinions about Reach. Everybody does not have same opinions, only different ones.

  • 05.13.2011 6:00 PM PDT


Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Unfortunately, they are nothing more than theories that are no better than fan-fiction. And the current game has basically re-written the book. So I would expect SIGNIFICANT changes in the re-release. Halo Reach will remain canon. The Fall of Reach as we know it will not.


I would rather take theories that make this game and the book closer to "fit like a glove", then sit around and wait for 343i fix something or state how the two fit together. If they even do it at all.

BUT thats just my preference.

[Edited on 05.13.2011 6:01 PM PDT]

  • 05.13.2011 6:01 PM PDT

"What do you hear?"
"Nothing but the rain."
"Then grab your gun and bring in the cat."
"Boom, boom, boom!"

Posted by: ix forte xi
Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Unfortunately, they are nothing more than theories that are no better than fan-fiction. And the current game has basically re-written the book. So I would expect SIGNIFICANT changes in the re-release. Halo Reach will remain canon. The Fall of Reach as we know it will not.


I would rather take theories that make this game and the book closer to "fit like a glove", then sit around and wait for 343i fix something or state how the two fit together. If they even do it at all.

BUT thats just my preference.


Something I agree with. Theories (or in this case, "fan-fiction") is better then nothing, especially knowing how 343i has handle the subject so far.

  • 05.13.2011 6:24 PM PDT

I started up the heated debate on whether the SPARTAN-II in the cryo tube near the end of Reach is really Linda.
I created the Moa XING avatar pic.
Also I earned the All Star nameplate with this submission to Week 14 All Stars http://www.bungie.net/images/News/Inline11/bwu_0415/art/likea boss.jpg

I was wanting this thread to "fix" any canon "errors" but instead it looks pike it's become more of a debate. Can we stick to the point? Are there any other "errors" that my OP doesn't list?

  • 05.13.2011 6:53 PM PDT


Posted by: ImmortalJoshua
I was wanting this thread to "fix" any canon "errors" but instead it looks pike it's become more of a debate. Can we stick to the point? Are there any other "errors" that my OP doesn't list?


I know there are a bunch in this thread
http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=49053700

[Edited on 05.13.2011 7:00 PM PDT]

  • 05.13.2011 6:59 PM PDT


Posted by: ix forte xi

Posted by: ImmortalJoshua
I was wanting this thread to "fix" any canon "errors" but instead it looks pike it's become more of a debate. Can we stick to the point? Are there any other "errors" that my OP doesn't list?


I know there are a bunch in this thread
http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=49053700

List your own, Not caboose being intolerant to reach.

  • 05.13.2011 7:04 PM PDT

Hanger one I just shredded with the SMGs until ammo was out and I just threw 'nades like a boss while BRing.

My experience playing Cairo Station on Legendary

Here's the BIGGEST problem I have. Spartan III's were not around on Reach. They were involved on Onyx and even Dr. Halsey had no recollection of the Spartan III project until she arrived in Ghosts of Onyx. Reach ruined Canon.

  • 05.13.2011 7:26 PM PDT


Posted by: Sector Z 157
Here's the BIGGEST problem I have. Spartan III's were not around on Reach. They were involved on Onyx and even Dr. Halsey had no recollection of the Spartan III project until she arrived in Ghosts of Onyx. Reach ruined Canon.


Wrong, all we know is Gamma company wasn't deployed to reach. Nothing about special squads or headhunter teams.

Dr. Halsey didn't know they were Spartan III's either.

Reach did not ruin canon.

  • 05.13.2011 7:29 PM PDT


Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: OrderedComa
I suggest you loosen up a bit and go check out of some of the stuff posted by Kit_103, Cmdr DaeFaron, and DecepticonCobra, and countless others I've seen, they've all posted excellent theories and ideas that easily fix any of the conflicts, supposed or actual, between Reach and TFoR. And in any case, just because there are conflicts that need explaining does not mean that either TFoR or Reach need to be declared non-canon, that's just stupid.

Unfortunately, they are nothing more than theories that are no better than fan-fiction. And the current game has basically re-written the book. So I would expect SIGNIFICANT changes in the re-release. Halo Reach will remain canon. The Fall of Reach as we know it will not.


I'm in the same boat as Kit and Forte here. Theorising fixes and such like that is infinitely better than just sitting around and complaining that Reach has contradictions with TFoR or claiming that Reach completely ruined and contradicts every aspect of every other Halo media. I think even just sitting out and saying something like "ok, this has contradictions, but I'm willing to wait it out and see what happens" is better than complaining about it.

  • 05.13.2011 9:28 PM PDT


Posted by: Docterweegee

Posted by: ix forte xi

Posted by: ImmortalJoshua
I was wanting this thread to "fix" any canon "errors" but instead it looks pike it's become more of a debate. Can we stick to the point? Are there any other "errors" that my OP doesn't list?


I know there are a bunch in this thread
http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=49053700

List your own, Not caboose being intolerant to reach.


I think Forte was saying that there are a lot theories and suggestions in Caboose's thread, or maybe both, idk.

  • 05.13.2011 9:30 PM PDT

I started up the heated debate on whether the SPARTAN-II in the cryo tube near the end of Reach is really Linda.
I created the Moa XING avatar pic.
Also I earned the All Star nameplate with this submission to Week 14 All Stars http://www.bungie.net/images/News/Inline11/bwu_0415/art/likea boss.jpg


Posted by: Sector Z 157
Here's the BIGGEST problem I have. Spartan III's were not around on Reach. They were involved on Onyx and even Dr. Halsey had no recollection of the Spartan III project until she arrived in Ghosts of Onyx. Reach ruined Canon.


Halsey didn't know they were S-IIIs, read her journal. He knew that they weren't her Spartans and suspected it to be another class or so (like Class-II, which is canon.)

Having a few S-IIIs who didn't die with the rest is not breaking canon. It can just be said that all of Alpha Company that was deployed in that last mission had died. Simple retcon, this has happened before in previous games and media.

  • 05.13.2011 9:30 PM PDT

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