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This topic has moved here: Subject: Who's the most powerful "ancient" alien race?
  • Subject: Who's the most powerful "ancient" alien race?
Subject: Who's the most powerful "ancient" alien race?
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SC = Supreme Commander/Supreme Canadian.

De Facto leader of the military of the APE (Allied Planets Empire).

Coup = Admiral Asskicker, ZPM hive ship

Posted by: Spartan 100

Posted by: SC Matt Klassen
Posted by: Spartan 100

Posted by: SC Matt Klassen
Well for one, a shield placed upon the event horizon can do the same thing as a killball can. Plus, I don't think killballs are canon. Sorry.

Hello Matt, it's erickyboo!
It was a joke.

Did not know. Long time no see.

Did not know it was a joke, either. With this one person saying that the Reapers could end the Forerunner Empire... well...

You should go on the halo forums.

On another side note, couldn't the forerunners just manipulate the galaxy using slip space? If they can shift the axis of galaxies, maybe they can cause some sort of movement that would destabilize the galaxy and cause great chaos to it.

Some people think that the Forerunners could destroy an entire galaxy via this method. But Cryptum says that the Forerunners have CONTEMPLATED this, meaning it's still theoretical.

Still, phase shifting somewhat nullifies this.

lol at the other thread, it's turned into Replicators vs Flood, and we all know what the outcome of that is... RIP Gravemind.

  • 05.03.2011 7:30 PM PDT


Posted by: SC Matt Klassen
Posted by: Xd00999

Posted by: SC Matt Klassen
Posted by: grey101

Posted by: SC Matt Klassen
The Ancients' Aurora class battleships would eat right through the Reapers. Yeah.

But sure, if you want to go this route, lets put the Forerunners and Ancients on a team AGAINST the Reapers.

The following battles would be hilarious.


You do understand that ships wise the ancients would have as many as the reapers at the most.

So if technology was on the same or similar level it would be a close fight

ZPMs. One advantage.
Drones-which ignore shields. Number two.
Cloaking tech. Three.
I don't know what the turrets on the Aurora-class warships fire, but they're probably energy weapons.
Time dilation fields. Four.

Four advantages for the Ancients.. The Reapers have no power source like the easily -FOR THE ANCIENTS- mass produced ZPM. Plus, megaton yield kinetic weapons do nothing against double gigaton-resistant shields.
Sorry. 2km cuttlefish lose against 3-4km Auroras. And that's not bringing the mighty cityships into this debate. I think the cityships are about 10-15km from end to end?
I would not count size as a definitive advantage in this fight. While being 10km long is good if you want more weapons, it does come at the sacrifice of maneuverability and makes you a bigger target.

It's a FLYING CITY. What do you expect? That it's as nimble as a Sabre or a Seraph?

And size is definitely an advantage. Roadkill much? At least when it comes to Atlantis and the other city-ships. The shields could tank that...

Megaton yield weaponry =/= gigaton yield weaponry, which the city's shields tanked several googleplexes of. If the Covenant could take the Reapers on and scrape a victory, the Alterans/Old Lanteans would just curbstomp the Reapers.


Don't know if you've been reading the rest of the thread, but there is significantly strong evidence to suggest that Forerunner guns (on ships) could likely tear a planet apart (not glass it: tear it apart). We know that Forerunner fast attack craft can pull countries off the surface, and that some Forerunner weapons can use stars as a bomb.

If gigatonnage weaponry and a small fleet (compared to the Forerunners) is the best the Ancients have to offer, then maybe the Forerunner can beat them.

Though there's still that time travel thing.

But yeah, Reapers are finished. I actually lol'd when I read Reapers>Precursors.

Edit: oh, and a Replicators vs Flood debate would end in a tie. Thus far, Gravemind has shown a physical inability to die (actually die, not go dormant for 100,000 years) and as the Flood can't infect machines, the fight wouldn't really get anywhere.

[Edited on 05.03.2011 7:46 PM PDT]

  • 05.03.2011 7:44 PM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.

Also, if any one is interested in redirecting the Necron debate I found a neet little fact about the Necron's tech capabilities: it appears one of the Tomb Worlds opening attacks on an area consit draining all power from the area.
The area in question being a small hive city that found a pillar with Necron symbols on it. And when I say drain power, I mean shut off every electrical device in the entire city right down to digital maps.

[Edited on 05.03.2011 8:10 PM PDT]

  • 05.03.2011 8:09 PM PDT
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact

@xd00999

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/a/a8/Mandalorian_Armo rs.JPG

It looks alot like your avatar.

  • 05.04.2011 4:22 AM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: SC Matt Klassen
Posted by: grey101

Posted by: SC Matt Klassen
Posted by: Xd00999

Posted by: SC Matt Klassen
[quote]Posted by: grey101

You do understand that ships wise the ancients would have as many as the reapers at the most.

So if technology was on the same or similar level it would be a close fight

ZPMs. One advantage.
Drones-which ignore shields. Number two.
Cloaking tech. Three.
I don't know what the turrets on the Aurora-class warships fire, but they're probably energy weapons.
Time dilation fields. Four.

Four advantages for the Ancients.. The Reapers have no power source like the easily -FOR THE ANCIENTS- mass produced ZPM. Plus, megaton yield kinetic weapons do nothing against double gigaton-resistant shields.
Sorry. 2km cuttlefish lose against 3-4km Auroras. And that's not bringing the mighty cityships into this debate. I think the cityships are about 10-15km from end to end?
I would not count size as a definitive advantage in this fight. While being 10km long is good if you want more weapons, it does come at the sacrifice of maneuverability and makes you a bigger target.

It's a FLYING CITY. What do you expect? That it's as nimble as a Sabre or a Seraph?

And size is definitely an advantage. Roadkill much? At least when it comes to Atlantis and the other city-ships. The shields could tank that... Megaton yield weaponry =/= gigaton yield weaponry, which the city's shields tanked several googleplexes of. If the Covenant could take the Reapers on and scrape a victory, the Alterans/Old Lanteans would just curbstomp the Reapers.



On the subject of numbers, do you think the Forerunners need their entire navy to put the Reapers down? No. One Fortress-class vessel = 1-2k Reapers. Or think about the first encounter that the UNSC had with the Covenant. The UNSC had the advantage of numbers, but the Covenant beat the crud out of them.

Tech > Numbers. Unless the number is insanely high.


A forerunner fortress class can take out far more than 2 reapers because the forerunners technology is more advanced than the reapers.
Same thing for the covenant.

The forerunners are highly advanced and have ships in the trillions. The ancients don't have a stable technological tree to begin with let alone the military prowess of the forerunners.

Even if the Ancients were somehow said to have a million ships (which would be overdoing it) the still wouldn't be able to beat the forerunners because of

Low population numbers, no will to fight, unable to last long engagements.

  • 05.04.2011 8:25 AM PDT
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact

Read the quotes on page 6 about shield strenght and so on...

Wraith ships were destroyed by megaton nukes,most pwoerful weapons is in gigaton range.Unlike the Forerunners,their weapons are o, petaton level at low end.

Forerunner weaponry>>>>>>POA reactor detonation.

Assuming all rings are 30000 km i ndiameter,means 04 has a width of 1000 km,now the explosion of the autumn was 5 times larger then the Rings width(watch the Halo 2 beginning).
According to startdestroyer.net calculator:
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Science/Nuke.html


Puts the autumn detonation at 10 Petaton.

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=186310&hi ghlight=forerunners&page=6

  • 05.04.2011 9:43 AM PDT

No Xel'Naga?

  • 05.04.2011 2:03 PM PDT


Posted by: hotshot revan II
Read the quotes on page 6 about shield strenght and so on...

Wraith ships were destroyed by megaton nukes,most pwoerful weapons is in gigaton range.Unlike the Forerunners,their weapons are o, petaton level at low end.

Forerunner weaponry>>>>>>POA reactor detonation.

Assuming all rings are 30000 km i ndiameter,means 04 has a width of 1000 km,now the explosion of the autumn was 5 times larger then the Rings width(watch the Halo 2 beginning).
According to startdestroyer.net calculator:
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Science/Nuke.html


Puts the autumn detonation at 10 Petaton.

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=186310&hi ghlight=forerunners&page=6


And Halo Installation 04 was destroyed not by the explosion istelf, but by centrifuges getting thrown off balance, thus tearing the Ring apart. The Ring's armor took the brunt of the blast and survived; the Ring itself caused a collapse

  • 05.04.2011 2:03 PM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.


Posted by: CottonParties
No Xel'Naga?
Xel'naga are too passive. They refused to kill something that was clearly a threat and look how that worked out. They avoid conflict and will therefore lose to all the other races who are much more bloody minded.

  • 05.04.2011 4:27 PM PDT

with regards to the Ancient technologies, some weird assumptions are being made. for one the Ori (basically the Ancients, but religious nut-job versions) have 'super-gates' which can transport enormous warships between galaxies, the Ancients had the know how to do this, not a single doubt about that. hell that descended Ancient, Orin or something made a small Stargate in Carters basement, that worked...! the reason for me why they didn't build massive gates for ships was their hyper-drive technology was so advanced they didn't need to waste all that time and energy (the Ori version needed a black hole to power it!) on transporting something that can get there anyway.

also light weapons DO NOT penetrate Ancient shields, nothing does! not energy weapons, not matter, not heat, nothing at all, look at the 'Orion' which survived sitting in the middle of a super-volcano with hugely depleted energy reserves and hugely depleted shields, it survived a volcanic eruption that rendered the planet uninhabitable! also proves matter cannot pass through the shield, regardless of its kinetic energy or size, since magma is matter and did not penetrate the shield, neither do people (Atlantis Gate Shield) or weapons fire, or Wraith darts. Atlantis' shield holds in the atmosphere during faster than light travel, so not even air can pass through, the same shield kept billions and billions of tons of water out of the city for thousands and thousands of years. the same shield technology holds the atmosphere in the damaged sections of Destiny and that is seriously out-dated technology.

same thing applies to their personal energy shields, like the one Rodney used, wasn't damaged or penetrated by bullets, feet, falling from a balcony, hell not even coffee penetrated it! they have technology that can effectively bring someone back from the dead, even badly damaged bodies. they have the 'stones' which sends your conciousness across a massive distance with no obvious lag or time delay, their technology has insane staying power, Destiny pre-dates the Forerunner as a species and it is still operational! developed temporal technologies that let them travel through time, phase technologies that let them make entire planets! disappear and be impossible to influence from the normal universe, so that is the Ancient anti-halo device, simple phase their planets/ships.

building a Halo would be doable for the Ancients, sure even building something like a shield world would be possible, but they never had the reason to so never did, they never had any grand astro-engineering like the Forerunner but are more than capable of it on a technological level, they've also made several doomsday weapons like the Dakara weapon, the Attero device, imagine Zero Point modules used as weapons (they destroy entire solar systems!), their technology only works with a certain gene as well and actually reacts to the presence of the gene, so walk into a room with the ATA gene and stuff starts turning on, etc. another few cool pieces of Ancient technology, what about the Quantum Mirror which is a doorway into other universes, or the Harmonic Resonance Wall which was completely solid, rock solid until exposed to a certain resonance frequency, which allowed people to walk through a solid wall.

for knowledge and technology, the Ancients all the way, especially had they not been 'hampered' by the dodgy writing of Stargate, another thing worth considering, the Ancients are an honourable and just race, they aren't warlike in the slightest, they were more regarded as a race of scientists, constantly trying to better themselves, hence why they aren't so good at war, their technology wasn't at fault, it was them that lost the war!

  • 05.04.2011 5:48 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: PLUT0NIUM 235
the Ancients are an honourable and just race,

Other than that stain on their record that goes by the name of Asuran. What they did to them was not very Noble.

Though they are much better than the Forerunner pigs.

  • 05.04.2011 5:57 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

The issues with the ancients is that their technology isn't consistent nor do they really innovate with it.

Yes their has been some viewings of ancient shields not failing no matter what, at the same time we have seen that they can be overwhelmed with firepower as destiny was numerous amounts of times.

They had a device that gave ground troops invincibility yet they didn't make this standard for their ships? if they did they wouldn't have been forced to move around so many galaxys nor be "defeated" by other races. And if a trooper was invincible why didn't they just drop one on enemy ships and have them destroy it from the inside?


To be honest i really don't think people should be bringing time travel up as it would matter much. obviously if they could do it and didn't there had to be a reason for it or else they could just go back in time and stop the ori from ever forming, yet they didn't so again their must be a reason for that.

ZPMs as a power source don't spark any interest in me seeing how they are just battery's meaning they do die. We have yet to see any type of forerunner relic have a power shortage; hell, the keyship that housed MB powered majority of high charity for eons at only 10%. not to mention that the monitors and other machines seem to have an unlimited power source.

  • 05.04.2011 5:57 PM PDT
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I Want to say first that I have barely scratched the surface of the first page, let alone the last 15, so this is my response to the original post:

A fight between two separate universes 'ancient' alien races simply is impractical, they all have different boundaries, halo for example I believe coheres rather nicely to the general laws of physics and uses theories as facts in its fiction, where as other races have the boundaries of the imagination of the creators and can use a made up word to invent a super weapon that can say blow up thousands of worlds at once and last millions of years blah...blah...blah.

TLDR: Some races adhere to gravity, others decide to invent fancy words and doohickys that can beat everyone else without making any sense. So I think that all the races win in their own universes.

  • 05.04.2011 6:18 PM PDT


Posted by: PLUT0NIUM 235
also light weapons DO NOT penetrate Ancient shields, nothing does! not energy weapons, not matter, not heat, nothing at all, look at the 'Orion' which survived sitting in the middle of a super-volcano with hugely depleted energy reserves and hugely depleted shields, it survived a volcanic eruption that rendered the planet uninhabitable! also proves matter cannot pass through the shield, regardless of its kinetic energy or size, since magma is matter and did not penetrate the shield, neither do people (Atlantis Gate Shield) or weapons fire, or Wraith darts. Atlantis' shield holds in the atmosphere during faster than light travel, so not even air can pass through, the same shield kept billions and billions of tons of water out of the city for thousands and thousands of years. the same shield technology holds the atmosphere in the damaged sections of Destiny and that is seriously out-dated technology.



About light weapons, this is false. Photons can clearly go clean through an Ancient ship's shield because I can still see an Ancient ship even if the shields are up

To say light weapons cannot go through it is a falasey. It is also a paradox. Light can go through, but also cannot.

Now a cloak on the other hand would be something else. Though Forerunners could cloak as well (because Covenant tech is based off them) so if an Alterran ship cloaks, a Forerunner cloaks, and then its a dead tie.

  • 05.04.2011 6:18 PM PDT

to be honest, that has just summed up my problem with the Ancients, but to be frank that is entirely down to dodgy writing. you cannot build the Stargate network millions of years ago and be technologically 'primitive', not considering the Stargate is probably one of the most advanced ever science fiction creations.

the only limitation of Ancient shields is how much power is fed into them, the amount of power required to maintain a stable shield is directly proportional to the amount of energy its trying to 'shield' against. same thing applies to their personal energy fields, eventually the one Rodney was wearing was 'drained' and no longer worked, though it still provided maximum protection until the last moment of its reserves, further showing the nature of their shields and how they are merely restricted by energy input. Atlantis shield survived, operational around a hundred years of constant bombardment from countless Wraith ship before they left and submerged their city to an unknown depth, where it remained (the shield holding back countless tons of water) for around ten thousand years! all of this without replenishing their zero-point energy modules is pretty impressive, especially when you consider they are no more than what, half a metre long and can be carried easily..?

Destiny is an old old old old ship that has clearly been through countless attacks, yet it is still working after millions of years, who knows how many attacks without a single crew member on board, it also has no zero-point energy modules and no-where near the energy storage of one, plus the shields are millions of years out of date! but think about it this way, Destiny was quite comfortable bathed in a star, hell it lives in stars, it uses them for fuel, it goes into a star with no worries totally protected by its shield. to drive into a star is a pretty awesome thing to do, they are rather hostile places that no known material can survive exposure to, and that is only our star, in one of the latest episodes Destiny flies into a Blue star, very very hot and still passed through without any troubles.

how about a hypothetical debate, compiling all the known Ancient technology to think of what sort of ships they 'could' use against the Forerunner if the need arose, the writers never did their technology justice to be honest, at least most of it. would imagine with their knowledge they could have created a pretty impressive fleet of warships without much trouble. look at Anubis' flagship, that had some crazy Ancient 'lightning' style weapon that destroyed Ha'tak like they were fragile eggs, fired which hit one, that shot jumped to like three others and before you know it there is four annihilated ships, shields also had no effect it would seem, same weapon pretty much levelled the surface of Abydos as well, killing all of the inhabitants which were ascended by Oma.

  • 05.04.2011 6:19 PM PDT


Posted by: PLUT0NIUM 235
to be honest, that has just summed up my problem with the Ancients, but to be frank that is entirely down to dodgy writing. you cannot build the Stargate network millions of years ago and be technologically 'primitive', not considering the Stargate is probably one of the most advanced ever science fiction creations.

the only limitation of Ancient shields is how much power is fed into them, the amount of power required to maintain a stable shield is directly proportional to the amount of energy its trying to 'shield' against. same thing applies to their personal energy fields, eventually the one Rodney was wearing was 'drained' and no longer worked, though it still provided maximum protection until the last moment of its reserves, further showing the nature of their shields and how they are merely restricted by energy input. Atlantis shield survived, operational around a hundred years of constant bombardment from countless Wraith ship before they left and submerged their city to an unknown depth, where it remained (the shield holding back countless tons of water) for around ten thousand years! all of this without replenishing their zero-point energy modules is pretty impressive, especially when you consider they are no more than what, half a metre long and can be carried easily..?

Destiny is an old old old old ship that has clearly been through countless attacks, yet it is still working after millions of years, who knows how many attacks without a single crew member on board, it also has no zero-point energy modules and no-where near the energy storage of one, plus the shields are millions of years out of date! but think about it this way, Destiny was quite comfortable bathed in a star, hell it lives in stars, it uses them for fuel, it goes into a star with no worries totally protected by its shield. to drive into a star is a pretty awesome thing to do, they are rather hostile places that no known material can survive exposure to, and that is only our star, in one of the latest episodes Destiny flies into a Blue star, very very hot and still passed through without any troubles.

how about a hypothetical debate, compiling all the known Ancient technology to think of what sort of ships they 'could' use against the Forerunner if the need arose, the writers never did their technology justice to be honest, at least most of it. would imagine with their knowledge they could have created a pretty impressive fleet of warships without much trouble. look at Anubis' flagship, that had some crazy Ancient 'lightning' style weapon that destroyed Ha'tak like they were fragile eggs, fired which hit one, that shot jumped to like three others and before you know it there is four annihilated ships, shields also had no effect it would seem, same weapon pretty much levelled the surface of Abydos as well, killing all of the inhabitants which were ascended by Oma.


I think the Ancients weren't as advanced militaristically because they were the benevolent of the two Altarrans (Ancients and Ori). Fighting was their last concern.

Though I don't watch the show (think I'll try to find it though; it sounds interesting. Wish the concept of ascension was more spiritual and like a revelation rather then a statistic of "using 90% of your brain and you can level up to an 80!" kind of thing, but it still all sounds cool).

  • 05.04.2011 6:26 PM PDT

I see, I misinterpreted the post, thought you meant light as in not heavy. similar to the problem Force Shields had where slow moving objects with little kinetic energy passed through, yet faster objects with more kinetic energy couldn't.

Light brings a couple of interesting questions with it, since heat is infra-red radiation, the heat emitted from the sun is infra-red 'light' which works in the same way as visible light just in a slightly different part of the spectrum, Ancient shields can stop heat (Destiny flies into stars...) but obviously allow visible light to pass through, even though there is not a great deal different between the two. so the question would be, why the hell does a shield stop infra-red 'light' but not visible light, in-fact rather than why, how about 'how' does it stop one and not the other?!

interesting can of beans opened up there, not just with regards to the Ancient shields, but all shields in general in science fiction, Star Trek with its shields that protect against heat yet not visible light, how random...!

  • 05.04.2011 6:27 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

I feel that the ancients technology is too inconsistent with much of it being unexplained, people over exaggerate nearly everything associated with them, and they don't take in to account many factors with the ancients when they debate for them.

I just don't think asking any ancient vs threads are going to be right in any way with the ancients because of those flaws.

I would love for a thread talking about ancient "vs" forerunner architecture and building capabilities though. I feel like that would be more "fair" and interesting than this.

  • 05.04.2011 6:30 PM PDT

^Then why not start one?

  • 05.04.2011 6:33 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Omanisat
^Then why not start one?


I think i will tommorow

  • 05.04.2011 6:40 PM PDT
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SC = Supreme Commander/Supreme Canadian.

De Facto leader of the military of the APE (Allied Planets Empire).

Coup = Admiral Asskicker, ZPM hive ship

For the people continuing on defending the Reapers.

  • 05.05.2011 8:31 AM PDT

"What's this do?
-Famous last words

I'm not voting until I see Eldar on here!

  • 05.05.2011 8:58 AM PDT

Flood's and Universe's Warhammer 40k fanatic and the one who knows much about it.

I also like House Stark and winter, hurr.


Posted by: deadwindstrider
I'm not voting until I see Eldar on here!


No matter that Eldar are one of my favorite scifi races, I dont see any change for them to win battle against ''godraces''.

  • 05.05.2011 9:07 AM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.


Posted by: teekuppi

Posted by: deadwindstrider
I'm not voting until I see Eldar on here!


No matter that Eldar are one of my favorite scifi races, I dont see any change for them to win battle against ''godraces''.
While Eldar are not as powerful as other races here, they do have gods which are more than willing to fight. The Avatars or Khaine and the Laughing God for example.
The problem is that we know nothing about the limits of Eldar tech because of the Fall. For all we know they could be stronger than the Forerunners but because very few ships survived the Fall the Eldar lost many of their technologies. Best case: they manipulate the other races into a massive battle that kills them all.

  • 05.05.2011 5:51 PM PDT