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This topic has moved here: Subject: Detracting The Chief's Heroism *SPOILERS*
  • Subject: Detracting The Chief's Heroism *SPOILERS*
Subject: Detracting The Chief's Heroism *SPOILERS*

The Halo Universe is vast. So vast, in fact, that it is impossible to leave it following the original trilogy. However, despite the large amount of heroes in the universe, who really is the Hero of Halo?

Master Chief Petty Officer John 117 (that is a mouthful)

It's impossible to say otherwise. He saved the galaxy... almost single-handedly. With this notion, I pose to you this question:

Do you think games based on other heroes detract from the Master Chief's heroism? I'm referring to games like Reach, ODST, and Halo Wars of course, although I'm also referring to the yet-to-be-made halo games from 343i. (even though they did state they want to continue the chief's story, we simply don't know yet.)

My Answer: (bit of a read, so you can read it or just post your answer, it won't hurt my feelings, lol.)

I loved the story of Reach (as a standalone story. I wasn't a huge fan of the canon breaches which by the way is not the topic of this thread). I thought it was a fabulous narrative about the last, desperate days of the planet. And lets just face it, some of the actions of Noble team were just epic. Carter and Jorge's sacrifice, Emile's final seconds, and of course, Noble 6's last cutscene. But I just feel like making the story of Reach about another group of Spartans kind of detracts from MC's epicness.

I mean, we never see the MC do this kind of awesome stuff in the game. "Returning" the bomb in Halo 2 was about the most epic cutscene in terms of the chief's actions. I realize these sort of things are portrayed in the novels, and I know that many of the novels delve into other heroes, but I just feel like Noble Team sort of stole the spotlight a little bit (in terms of the games).

As far as ODST goes, I thought it was done with enough sensitivity to the subject, that it worked. It's still my favorite Halo game to date, story wise. Sure, you could call the squad members heroes, but the game did such a good job in showing them as regular soldiers, that it doesn't bother me at all. I mean, they didn't really do anything too epic. Individually that is. They're heroism was shown through their teamwork.

Anyway, please comment/speculate, let me know where you stand.

[Edited on 04.28.2011 3:29 PM PDT]

  • 04.28.2011 3:25 PM PDT

Well chief's actions as a whole were just unreal, and 3 games in a row, it was really beaten into us that Chief was the hero to humans, and he was.

I really liked that Bungie expanded to Noble team and ODST's, it made the entire Halo universe just 'feel' like a universe without having to read the books.

  • 04.28.2011 4:46 PM PDT

http://www.halo-forum.com

Posted by: Thugzz Deluxxxe
The Halo Universe is vast. So vast, in fact, that it is impossible to leave it following the original trilogy. However, despite the large amount of heroes in the universe, who really is the Hero of Halo?

Master Chief Petty Officer John 117 (that is a mouthful)

It's impossible to say otherwise. He saved the galaxy... almost single-handedly.

The Chief was never truly alone. He Fought almost the entirity of his military career in a squad, fought with numerous standard infantry backup or had the most advanced AI ever built helping him, or all at once.

With this notion, I pose to you this question:

Do you think games based on other heroes detract from the Master Chief's heroism? I'm referring to games like Reach, ODST, and Halo Wars of course

No

, although I'm also referring to the yet-to-be-made halo games from 343i. (even though they did state they want to continue the chief's story, we simply don't know yet.)
Halo 4 will presumably carry on the Chief's legacy, further enforcing his heroic and legendary status. (NO pun intended)

My Answer: (bit of a read, so you can read it or just post your answer, it won't hurt my feelings, lol.)

I loved the story of Reach (as a standalone story. I wasn't a huge fan of the canon breaches which by the way is not the topic of this thread). I thought it was a fabulous narrative about the last, desperate days of the planet.

Opinions differ. From a narrative perspective I thought Reach failed. There was a serious lack of character development and the general plot seemed confused and sketchy for the most part.

Reach created alot of questions, but not alot of answers.

And lets just face it, some of the actions of Noble team were just epic. Carter and Jorge's sacrifice, Emile's final seconds, and of course, Noble 6's last cutscene.
Epic, but cliche. Not saying I didn't enjoy it, more that their deaths could have been slightly less generic and therefore more interesting, more effective.

But I just feel like making the story of Reach about another group of Spartans kind of detracts from MC's epicness.
It doesn't. People mistakenly put MC on a pedestal that he didn't deserve.

I mean, we never see the MC do this kind of awesome stuff in the game. "Returning" the bomb in Halo 2 was about the most epic cutscene in terms of the chief's actions. I realize these sort of things are portrayed in the novels, and I know that many of the novels delve into other heroes, but I just feel like Noble Team sort of stole the spotlight a little bit (in terms of the games).
Were you expecting Bungie to tone the awesome purely because the MC was not doing said actions?

As far as ODST goes, I thought it was done with enough sensitivity to the subject, that it worked. It's still my favorite Halo game to date, story wise. Sure, you could call the squad members heroes, but the game did such a good job in showing them as regular soldiers, that it doesn't bother me at all. I mean, they didn't really do anything too epic. Individually that is. They're heroism was shown through their teamwork.
Spartans are far from regular soldiers. Even ODSTs are more epic than a standard marine, and marines themselves can achieve awesomeness.

  • 04.28.2011 7:43 PM PDT

As Switch said, Chief is a hero, and is awesome in his own way. However, As bungie said once "Master Chief does not describe halo, we want to get away from that."

Do other games detract from him being cool? Not really. Reach showed other Spartans can do what he did, better or worse.

And, as Switch said again, Chief did not single-handedly save the universe.

  • 04.28.2011 9:55 PM PDT


Posted by: switch 104 sv

The Chief was never truly alone. He Fought almost the entirity of his military career in a squad, fought with numerous standard infantry backup or had the most advanced AI ever built helping him, or all at once.


I realize this. that's what the "almost" was for. I said almost singlehandedly to point out that the chief did more to save the galaxy than anyone else.

No

Ok then. :)

Halo 4 will presumably carry on the Chief's legacy, further enforcing his heroic and legendary status. (NO pun intended)

I know, that's what I said.

Opinions differ. From a narrative perspective I thought Reach failed. There was a serious lack of character development and the general plot seemed confused and sketchy for the most part.

Reach created alot of questions, but not alot of answers.


I'll agree that the plot was sketchy at times, and that it created more questions than answers, but that only occurs when you try to fit it into the canon of the rest of the universe. What I meant when I said "stand alone story".

As for the characters, I thought other than ODST, Reach had the best character development of any halo game. The characters from the trilogy, while I love them, are extremely generic. And the MC really never had a personality. One of my favorite parts of Reach is when Carter is talking at the peginning of the Package, after Kat dies. It's extremely subtle, but he has almost no urgency or determination in his voice. I look at that as greif. He's simply in soldier mode. I doubt most people would catch on to it, but its those very subtle changes that, to me, show that Bungie did a great job of crafting deep characters. However, as you said "Opinions Differ". :)

Epic, but cliche. Not saying I didn't enjoy it, more that their deaths could have been slightly less generic and therefore more interesting, more effective.

I'll agree with that. Really the only death that isn't cliche is Kat's. Departed style, mid-sentence and everything, lol.

It doesn't. People mistakenly put MC on a pedestal that he didn't deserve.

Right, he's the first Halo character Halo fans ever got to know, and he saved the galaxy. Yeah, you're right, he doesn't deserve it. Forget I ever said it.

I know the fiction says that John isn't the best Spartan, but the best movies hardly put the right man for the job in these dire situations. No one asks to be a hero, sometimes it just turns out that way. This thread was really only meant to be based on the games, not the novels. I mean it's this pedestal you're referring to that makes 343 want to continue his story. I know there's more to Halo than MC, but Halo wouldn't be anything if it weren't for him, that's all I'm trying to say.

Were you expecting Bungie to tone the awesome purely because the MC was not doing said actions?

Not at all, that's a pretty good point actually.

Spartans are far from regular soldiers. Even ODSTs are more epic than a standard marine, and marines themselves can achieve awesomeness.


I never said Spartans were regular soldiers. I was referring to the ODST squad from ODST. And while they are more advanced than regular marines, they're still regular humans. A little more hardcore maybe, but still soldiers. I am aware that marines can be epic. That was actually the point I was trying to make. They were awesome, but they were awesome because they worked together, not because they rode a bomb through space into a covenant ship. lol.

You do have some good points though, good debate :)

  • 04.28.2011 10:39 PM PDT
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact

343 just said in an interview on ign,that they have a special future in store for MC.

  • 04.28.2011 10:47 PM PDT

And hes a mother-freaking Reclaimer!

  • 04.28.2011 10:56 PM PDT


Posted by: BOSOX599
And hes a mother-freaking Reclaimer!


So is bob the fatass down the road...

Anyway, To expand on what Switch meant by "A Pedestal he didn't deserve"

I believe he means it in a sense people treat Master Chief as an unstoppable god or war who saved the universe by himself, never got any form of help, and had no problems ever.

  • 04.28.2011 11:55 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: BOSOX599
And hes a mother-freaking Reclaimer!


So is bob the fatass down the road...

Anyway, To expand on what Switch meant by "A Pedestal he didn't deserve"

I believe he means it in a sense people treat Master Chief as an unstoppable god or war who saved the universe by himself, never got any form of help, and had no problems ever.


I agree with this, yes, John saved the galaxy, but he was never alone, he had help all down the road. It was all thanks to Truth that John was able to defeat the Covenant for example. Truth was the reason the Great Schism happened, thus the alliance between Elites and Humans and thus, the defeat of the loyalists at the Ark, otherwise the Covenant would have fired the Halos either in Installation 05 or in the Ark.

It's just a matter of tying loose ends to see that John was not this invincible, unstoppable and unmatchable god of war that he is made out to be.

  • 04.29.2011 12:08 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

I'm just waiting for the inevitable market build up of, "The Master Chief returns" that 343i will use once the next game is announced.

  • 04.29.2011 3:44 AM PDT


Posted by: switch 104 sv
...and marines themselves can achieve awesomeness.


This.
People forget that in terms of the Haloverse, the UNSCDF soldiers are as good as if not better trained than any of the 'top' militaries today.
They are not random "Starship Troopers" cannon fodder that they are portrayed as in the games.


Just thought I'd get that out there.

  • 04.29.2011 3:50 AM PDT

http://www.halo-forum.com

Posted by: Thugzz Deluxxxe
I'll agree that the plot was sketchy at times, and that it created more questions than answers, but that only occurs when you try to fit it into the canon of the rest of the universe. What I meant when I said "stand alone story".

Well I was actually looking at it from a standalone perspective. Ignoring the date changes and obvious friction the game has with the books story, I was hoping for a bit more information regarding Noble Team's history, Thom's history, a few "...remember that OP on blah blah blah...", how Jorge came to be in the team. There were lines of thought started but never completed. That's all I'm saying, and as a standalone game I still very much enjoyed it.

One of my favorite parts of Reach is when Carter is talking at the peginning of the Package, after Kat dies. It's extremely subtle, but he has almost no urgency or determination in his voice. I look at that as greif. He's simply in soldier mode. I doubt most people would catch on to it, but its those very subtle changes that, to me, show that Bungie did a great job of crafting deep characters. However, as you said "Opinions Differ". :)
I agree with this. That moment was well put together, as well as N6 pulling Kat's body through the door with the door ever so slightly tipping her boot. I like that whole cutscene. well pulled off. One or two more of those would have changed my opinion of the narrative drastically.

I'll agree with that. Really the only death that isn't cliche is Kat's. Departed style, mid-sentence and everything, lol.
See above for deatails. :)

I know the fiction says that John isn't the best Spartan, but the best movies hardly put the right man for the job in these dire situations. No one asks to be a hero, sometimes it just turns out that way. This thread was really only meant to be based on the games, not the novels. I mean it's this pedestal you're referring to that makes 343 want to continue his story. I know there's more to Halo than MC, but Halo wouldn't be anything if it weren't for him, that's all I'm trying to say.
Agreed. I'm just opposed to blind fanboyism, not suggesting at all that's what your doing, just in general.


Posted by: privet caboose
I'm just waiting for the inevitable market build up of, "The Master Chief returns" that 343i will use once the next game is announced.

Not gonna lie, I'm probably going to wreck my pants when it does happen.

  • 04.29.2011 4:11 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: switch 104 sv

Posted by: privet caboose
I'm just waiting for the inevitable market build up of, "The Master Chief returns" that 343i will use once the next game is announced.

Not gonna lie, I'm probably going to wreck my pants when it does happen.


Oh me too, but I'm just wondering if they can beat this.

[Edited on 04.29.2011 4:17 AM PDT]

  • 04.29.2011 4:14 AM PDT

http://www.halo-forum.com

Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: switch 104 sv

Posted by: privet caboose
I'm just waiting for the inevitable market build up of, "The Master Chief returns" that 343i will use once the next game is announced.

Not gonna lie, I'm probably going to wreck my pants when it does happen.


Oh me too, but I'm just wondering if they can beat this.

It'll be tough but I think if get even come close the actual realisation that Halo 4 is on the way will do the rest, at least for me.

  • 04.29.2011 4:35 AM PDT