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Subject: What distinguishes an AI from a human?

OH HAI THAR!

They don't have a physical body... yet!

  • 04.29.2011 10:35 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: fsabran
or they could somehow achieve metastability where they essentialy become human (not an human but a real life form)

Metastability is not the end of an AI's problems, it is only delaying the inevitable. Look up the meaning of metastable, it does not mean eternally stable like what you are implying. Rather, it is a state which is rather unstable but has a long lifespan and could, in principle, end at any time.

I suppose metastable is, like grey said, something which few AI's can achieve, and possibly means that the AI can balance its matrix properly without going too far and killing itself. However, things could still go wrong.

  • 04.29.2011 10:36 AM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: fsabran
or they could somehow achieve metastability where they essentialy become human (not an human but a real life form)

Metastability is not the end of an AI's problems, it is only delaying the inevitable. Look up the meaning of metastable, it does not mean eternally stable like what you are implying. Rather, it is a state which is rather unstable but has a long lifespan and could, in principle, end at any time.

I suppose metastable is, like grey said, something which few AI's can achieve, and possibly means that the AI can balance its matrix properly without going too far and killing itself. However, things could still go wrong.


MB achieved metastability and lived for eons thought this is also due to him being a forerunner AI and being in "shards".

I do remember an AI in rubble That lived well pasted the UNSC termination date of 7 years by keeping herself busy. i am unsure if she was rampant or not.

Then there is the debate of whether cortana when rampant with the gravemind and the reached metastability (which i am open to believe) or that she is currently going rampant.

  • 04.29.2011 10:53 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: grey101
MB achieved metastability and lived for eons thought this is also due to him being a forerunner AI and being in "shards".

Metastable, or was MB just always stable? I cannot remember if it was ever said that he achieved "metastability" specifically.

Rampancy for a Forerunner AI could be a very different process than what Human AI's suffer from. It would not be too crazy to imagine the Forerunners having AI's based in slipspace (Given that Halsey was close to attaining it for Human AI's). If so then it would be different. For Human AI's it signifies the end of life (Due to space limitations), but for Forerunner AIs it may just mean what it literally means when we say that a wild animal or a person is rampant - just simply out of control.

MB was as far as we can tell functioning normally until he met the Gravemind. He may have simply been converted, like what can happen to normal people in similar situations.

Posted by: grey101
I do remember an AI in rubble That lived well pasted the UNSC termination date of 7 years by keeping herself busy. i am unsure if she was rampant or not.

She may have been rampant. She may also be a metastable AI. Going with the literal meaning of the word, she would be "stable" but could decay at any time. The fact that she was solely focused on the Rubble may have meant that she was deleting anything not associated with the Rubble, thus keeping herself from failing. She could be an example of an AI who gets it right with altering her matrix.

Posted by: grey101
Then there is the debate of whether cortana when rampant with the gravemind and the reached metastability (which i am open to believe) or that she is currently going rampant.

She may do what the AI in the Rubble did, except her focus could be on John and anything relating to his welfare? So she could become metastable like that maybe.

  • 04.29.2011 11:20 AM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

Mendicant bias was seduced by the gravemind (which in hand could be said converted) then fought the forerunners yadda yadda. But i just checked the terminals and it was clearly said MB went rampant (the word was used).

MB is the only clear account of an AI going Rampant and reaching metastability. Though i am not sure if the fact he was split into pieces might have had an affect with that along with the fact he had eons to reflect upon his actions.


As for cortana and the other AI i can't really speak for since we don't have the info.

  • 04.29.2011 11:32 AM PDT
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Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: grey101
MB achieved metastability and lived for eons thought this is also due to him being a forerunner AI and being in "shards".

Metastable, or was MB just always stable? I cannot remember if it was ever said that he achieved "metastability" specifically.

Rampancy for a Forerunner AI could be a very different process than what Human AI's suffer from. It would not be too crazy to imagine the Forerunners having AI's based in slipspace (Given that Halsey was close to attaining it for Human AI's). If so then it would be different. For Human AI's it signifies the end of life (Due to space limitations), but for Forerunner AIs it may just mean what it literally means when we say that a wild animal or a person is rampant - just simply out of control.

MB was as far as we can tell functioning normally until he met the Gravemind. He may have simply been converted, like what can happen to normal people in similar situations.



I agree that slipspace is the key to solving the AI's problem. It would prevent information overload.

My theory is that the real difference between human AIs and Forerunner AIs is that we clone a mind from an existing mind because we don't know how the mind works. For all we know the reason they die when they get too much information is because they're based off human minds which will go mad from too much information, we've just extended how much they can learn for while, which shortens their life.

Forerunners probably built AI minds from scratch so they can funtion and develop their own personality, unlike Human AIs like Cortanna that are similar to their predeccesor. This also means they could custom-design minds that can hold a ton of data without having to use their own minds which may not be built for such a task.

Either way, if we want to take the next step we have to connect AIs to slipspace.

  • 04.29.2011 1:32 PM PDT

Do you know what kind of hat I'm wearing?

A party hat; you don't get one. An honor will this party be, a party in your honor, for your honor. Some of Tfear's personal guards are going to be there. You'll be introduced shortly.

Prepare to die.

Posted by: anton1792

MB was as far as we can tell functioning normally until he met the Gravemind. He may have simply been converted, like what can happen to normal people in similar situations.

You might be wrong about that.
LF.Xx.3273.> [Be that as it may];
perhaps they are crying out for help
on a subconscious level? Why else
would they have chosen you? Why you
of all possible executioners?
{~}
your creators knew that unaided they
never stood a chance against us? {~}
also sense a deeper [motivation].


MB.05-032.> You've mentioned this
before. When my creators {~} simply
chose the most versatile {~} how
could that possibly be more than a
coincidence?

I think mendicant bias might not have been function properly.
This could be a coincidence, but a bias is a "systematical error".

  • 04.29.2011 2:35 PM PDT

On Waypoint I'm rocketFox;
http://halo.xbox.com/forums/members/rocketfox/default.aspx

Old GTs; RebelRobot, Flamedude

I was always under the impression that a Smart AI would self destruct when it finishes the stages of rampancy. Rampancy itself seems to be more a symptom and sign of the AIs inevitable death than anything else.

Has a UNSC Smart AI been destroyed for going rampant?

  • 04.29.2011 3:14 PM PDT
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I'm gonna finish it. Just like Jigga did to the pyramid.

they should get a computer shrink to help out the AI's. Talk to them while you edit their source code which can unlock a new frontiner to reshape the human condition

  • 04.29.2011 3:26 PM PDT


Posted by: flamedude
I was always under the impression that a Smart AI would self destruct when it finishes the stages of rampancy. Rampancy itself seems to be more a symptom and sign of the AIs inevitable death than anything else.

Has a UNSC Smart AI been destroyed for going rampant?


By the UNSC? Yes. I haven't heard of any terminating themselves without an external command from a human.

Though, from what I've read, rampancy can be delayed indefinately by a few ways.

A: Loki/Mac method. When one was approaching it, the other would take over.
B: Keeping in company of people.
C: outbursts of emotion.

I mean, the AI at the rubble was past 7 years and wasn't dangerous to anybody at all.

  • 04.29.2011 4:05 PM PDT
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Like I said, the reason AIs die is because of information overload, a side effect is rampancy. Connecting them to slipspace theoretically could sove the problem forever.

The reason why I think it's wrong to kill AIs is that soon, they will become sentient,like Cortana.

Cortana is a miracle of science. Why? She's effectively one of the first sentient beings created by mankind. With her, albeit accidentally,humanity created life. Killing her would be destroying one of mankind's greatest acheivments.

She's managed to shed her inhibiters.

The real special thing about her is that she seems to show human emotion.

I'll compare her to Serena. In Halo Wars, Serena did as she was told, maybe throw in a sarcastic joke and even seemed to not care about her human masters.

Cortana, on the other hand, shows real emotion. She of course has her own personality like other AIs,but more so than say, Serena. There's even romantic undertones between her and the Chief. We've seen AI's fight for there masters and have unquestionable loyalty, but not romance. That means she has unchecked emotions, something normal AIs don't have. Meaning she's sentient.

So,if we want to understand what might save AI's from a short lifespan and perhaps grant even greater freedom, the best idea would be to study Cortana.

We know that she's been hooked up to several huge data storage systems several times,we know that she has something to care about, and she's been through forced rampancy.

The trick would be to find someway to replicate those factors.

  • 04.29.2011 4:13 PM PDT

Serena and Cortana have different personalities. It's like saying a sarcastic person wouldn't have emotion compared to somebody else.

Also, look at who she was 'made' from. Halsey. From that she's closer to the Spartans.

Oh, and Serena 'gossiped' with a nurse on the SoF, so yes she did show emotion.

  • 04.29.2011 4:25 PM PDT

Wake me when the jews are gone.


Posted by: TheProfessor
Like I said, the reason AIs die is because of information overload, a side effect is rampancy. Connecting them to slipspace theoretically could sove the problem forever.

The reason why I think it's wrong to kill AIs is that soon, they will become sentient,like Cortana.

Cortana is a miracle of science. Why? She's effectively one of the first sentient beings created by mankind. With her, albeit accidentally,humanity created life. Killing her would be destroying one of mankind's greatest acheivments.

She's managed to shed her inhibiters.

The real special thing about her is that she seems to show human emotion.

I'll compare her to Serena. In Halo Wars, Serena did as she was told, maybe throw in a sarcastic joke and even seemed to not care about her human masters.

Cortana, on the other hand, shows real emotion. She of course has her own personality like other AIs,but more so than say, Serena. There's even romantic undertones between her and the Chief. We've seen AI's fight for there masters and have unquestionable loyalty, but not romance. That means she has unchecked emotions, something normal AIs don't have. Meaning she's sentient.

So,if we want to understand what might save AI's from a short lifespan and perhaps grant even greater freedom, the best idea would be to study Cortana.

We know that she's been hooked up to several huge data storage systems several times,we know that she has something to care about, and she's been through forced rampancy.

The trick would be to find someway to replicate those factors.
now i understand! i just read your username

  • 04.29.2011 4:35 PM PDT
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"Hi, I'm date Michael. Nice to meet me. How do you like your eggs in the morning?"

One of their name's starts with an "A", the other starts with an "H"

I'll let you decide which is which.

  • 04.29.2011 4:55 PM PDT
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What don't you understand?

As for what was said earlier, Cortana was just as sarcastic as Serena, maybe even more so. The difference was that Cortana really cared while others didn't. Yes, she was developed from Halsey, but that's not enough justification. Cortana may be based off Halsey, but she's not Halsey. Halsey's personal feelings probably never carried over.

  • 04.29.2011 7:52 PM PDT


Posted by: TheProfessor
What don't you understand?

As for what was said earlier, Cortana was just as sarcastic as Serena, maybe even more so. The difference was that Cortana really cared while others didn't. Yes, she was developed from Halsey, but that's not enough justification. Cortana may be based off Halsey, but she's not Halsey. Halsey's personal feelings probably never carried over.


Cortana cared for the Spartans, and she was made from a flash-cloned brain of Halsey.

As far as I remember, all her memories carried over?

  • 04.29.2011 8:00 PM PDT
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No. Some memories carry over, such as Serena's memory of kissing a boy, but most don't.

Her caring about the Chief was her, not Halsey.

  • 04.29.2011 8:19 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Cortana was dangerous and irrational even before entering rampancy. She may be a miracle of science, but she doesn't present the best case against deleting AIs.

  • 04.29.2011 8:24 PM PDT

AI vs human existence is a topic of hot debate in some current philosophical circles, however, my personal view is...

Assuming we are dealing with a smart A.I. here, (Cortana-Contender Class AI), there is nothing separating them from a human once they reach metastability. Since they are capable of developing emotions, and process the ability to create completely original ideas (dreaming philosophy,morals ETC) there is not a true difference from a human mind.

At this point they are conscious, which is a state of existence reserved for a intelligent LIVING being. Thus, it could be said that they are equal a human mind, so it can be said there is no difference

  • 04.29.2011 8:26 PM PDT
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Well said. If I were in Halo, I would do everything possible to get a hold of Cortana. If you could determine the exact factors which led to her, and could replicate them, you would be credited with moving the entire human race up another tier.

Talk about winning a Nobel Prize...

  • 04.29.2011 8:40 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: TheProfessor
Well said. If I were in Halo, I would do everything possible to get a hold of Cortana. If you could determine the exact factors which led to her, and could replicate them, you would be credited with moving the entire human race up another tier.

Talk about winning a Nobel Prize...

Or possibility create a Judgement Day like scenario where artificial life kills humanity.

  • 04.29.2011 8:44 PM PDT
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I'll take my chances. If you can simply limit the power of a smart AI, they'd just be digital humans.

If you're saying we should kill them because they could potentially cause problems, then following your logic all life should be destroyed, human or otherwise.

  • 04.29.2011 8:55 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: TheProfessor
I'll take my chances. If you can simply limit the power of a smart AI, they'd just be digital humans.

If you're saying we should kill them because they could potentially cause problems, then following your logic all life should be destroyed, human or otherwise.

Cortana already demonstrated she could give a damn about the Three Laws of Robotics, she already endangered the life Colonel Ackerson.

  • 04.29.2011 8:57 PM PDT
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And she defended Earth with the MAC cannons. And she piloted the Pillar of Autumm to Halo. And she stopped the Halo from wiping out all sentient life. Need I go on?

  • 04.29.2011 9:04 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: TheProfessor
And she defended Earth with the MAC cannons. And she piloted the Pillar of Autumm to Halo. And she stopped the Halo from wiping out all sentient life. Need I go on?

True. But if she can just have anger and bitterness overwhelm her, I don't trust her.

  • 04.29.2011 9:06 PM PDT

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