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Subject: Is Halsey a monster?

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Poll: Is Halsey a monster?  [closed]
Yes:  40%
(29 Votes)
No:  60%
(44 Votes)
Total Votes: 73

One thing that's always bothered me that I don't feel is mentioned much is the fact that Dr. Halsey's methods used for the Spartan project were initially for the insurrection.

Let's put this into modern perspective; how would you feel if you learned of a top secret government program that involved kidnapping children, indoctrinating them into military culture, conducting high-risk experimental surgery on them, then essentially condemning them to a lifetime of brutal military service, all to fight al-Qaeda.

That's right; what if the government was kidnapping children to fight Bin Laden?

Anyway, some may say, "Oh, but the Covenant," but keep in mind that the SPARTAN-II Program was initiated well before first contact.

Halsey's methods were only justified after the fact; a set of circumstances she could have never predicted.

It'd be like shooting someone in the head, and then learning that they were a serial rapist.

  • 04.29.2011 3:44 PM PDT

The insurrectionists if let free would led to galactic scale civil war.
So yes, SPARTANS II were needed even without the Covenant.

  • 04.29.2011 3:47 PM PDT

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Posted by: zepedrodel
The insurrectionists if let free would led to galactic scale civil war.
So yes, SPARTANS II were needed even without the Covenant.
You make it sound as if there were no diplomatic solution.

Imagine a series of colonists who rise up after their wishes to be self-governed are squandered by a distant tyrant.

Unimaginable, amirite?

  • 04.29.2011 3:53 PM PDT
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In a way, yeah she was a monster. She had no problem with kipnapping children to be used as tools for the military. However if she hadn't done this its likely that the UNSC would have been in the middle of a full blown civil war by the time the covenant showed up that would've claimed millions of lives. Though I find it hard to believe ODSTs couldn't have dealt with the insurgents.

Posted by: Primo84
Posted by: zepedrodel
The insurrectionists if let free would led to galactic scale civil war.
So yes, SPARTANS II were needed even without the Covenant.
You make it sound as if there were no diplomatic solution.

According to Halesy it was a little too late for diplomacy. The insurrectionist movement was spreading like wildfire and they were gearing up for war. The UNSC were preparing to smack them down with an iron fist. The insurgents would have used the blood bath as a rallying cry to pull more people in triggering the start of the civil war.


[Edited on 04.29.2011 4:02 PM PDT]

  • 04.29.2011 3:56 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

I see Halsey as merely being a pawn herself. The "UNSC" are the monsters really.

The colonists wish to be self-governed, the UNSC does not allow it. The UNSC plunders the colonies and leaves them with not much to use themselves. There would not be an Insurrection if the UNSC were not so tight.

So the UNSC (Or ONI, essentially the same thing at the highest levels I guess) puts into motion an ethically questionable program and hires Halsey to do it, all to settle a problem that they themselves created and could end diplomatically.

Wasn't Halsey just captivated by the Carver findings and the "millions of deaths from a civil war" that ONI was telling her? I do not think she was privy to all the facts surrounding the Insurrection. She may have viewed them as a bunch of cave dwelling schemers who irradiated an entire colony by what ONI was telling her.

  • 04.29.2011 4:07 PM PDT

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Posted by: anton1792You bring up some great points, but I have a hard time believing that someone of Halsey's intellect would be that ignorant of the situation.

  • 04.29.2011 4:11 PM PDT
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Posted by: Nameless Oracle
In a way, yeah she was a monster. She had no problem with kipnapping children to be used as tools for the military. However if she hadn't done this its likely that the UNSC would have been in the middle of a full blown civil war by the time the covenant showed up that would've claimed millions of lives. Though I find it hard to believe ODSTs couldn't have dealt with the insurgents.

Posted by: Primo84
Posted by: zepedrodel
The insurrectionists if let free would led to galactic scale civil war.
So yes, SPARTANS II were needed even without the Covenant.
You make it sound as if there were no diplomatic solution.

According to Halesy it was a little too late for diplomacy. The insurrectionist movement was spreading like wildfire and they were gearing up for war. The UNSC were preparing to smack them down with an iron fist. The insurgents would have used the blood bath as a rallying cry to pull more people in triggering the start of the civil war.


If it counts,she did have great sorrow looking back at what she'd done and she always treated the SPARTANS like real people rather than war machines.

ODSTs aren't SPARTANs. ODST are for recon and sabotage, they aren't designed to mow down 100 people by themselves like SPARTANs.

  • 04.29.2011 4:23 PM PDT

Didact's Reprisal -
Now is the time of our unworlding
One final effort is all that remains
And I am not afraid
We shall fulfill our promise
We fight for the grace of the Mantle
And this time none of you will be left behind

"I ran more than fourteen hundred simulations, varying every parameter, and in the
best-case scenario the Outer Colonies would rebel..and rebel soon.

With FTL-capable transports, ANY colony could convert such vehicles into weapons of mass destruction.

Minimum effect was thirty years of war and five billion dead. That maximum effect was unbounded. Interminable war. Another Dark Age for humanity.


...
How many lives must be spent to save all of humanity?
Is any price too high to pay?
This may be our only solution.
Now, back to work."
-Dr. Halsey's Journal

  • 04.29.2011 4:33 PM PDT

Well, the rebels brought up being self-governed the wrong way. I mean, I haven't read anything about the plundering of resources (It sounded like the farming planets such as Harvest, one of the farthest from Earth, was doing rather well.), but didn't they start with violence, and not diplomacy?

  • 04.29.2011 4:38 PM PDT

The origins of the war began when colonists bean protesting aganst the Colonial Administration Authortys beurocratic oversght over the colonies. After ma failed negotiations, some protesters grouped together and started using violince, beginning the Insurrection. The violence continued to escalate, and the UNSC soon realized if they do not intervene soon, then the Rebels would take over the Outer Colonies, and lead to a massive civil war between the Outer and Inner colonies.

The UNSC began to send forces to fight the rebels, and soon death tolls, including civilians, steadily rised. With civilins being killed in crossfire, the Rebels had rallying point, and gained more suport, so the UNSC had to change tactics.

The UNSC initialised the ORION (Spartan I) Project, overseen by Halsey, to use small special forces of Super Soldiers in order to limit UNSC and civilian casualties, however it was deemed a failure.

After a few years of escalating war, the tried again wit the Spartan II Project. Halsey wantedo eliminate the problems with the ORION project, one of which was the agof the candidates. The young candidates werselected, kidnapped, and replced with clone (who later died). We all know the rest of the story.

As far as Halsey being a monster is concerned, she was far frm one. She held great guilt and sorrow of destorying the candidates lives, forcing them into a life of war. She felt it was her fault for evey Spartan who died. Se also wanted to protect them to fogive that, developing the MJOLNIR armor for their use.

  • 04.29.2011 4:40 PM PDT

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Posted by: Stacka30
As far as Halsey being a monster is concerned, she was far frm one. She held great guilt and sorrow of destorying the candidates lives, forcing them into a life of war. She felt it was her fault for evey Spartan who died. Se also wanted to protect them to fogive that, developing the MJOLNIR armor for their use.
A sense of regret and guilt doesn't exactly erase history.

  • 04.29.2011 4:44 PM PDT

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Posted by: Dustin 6047

Posted by: Primo84
Posted by: zepedrodel
The insurrectionists if let free would led to galactic scale civil war.
So yes, SPARTANS II were needed even without the Covenant.
You make it sound as if there were no diplomatic solution.

Imagine a series of colonists who rise up after their wishes to be self-governed are squandered by a distant tyrant.

Unimaginable, amirite?


I'm pretty sure the UNSC didn't act as tyrants, they just controlled a lot of the money and food flow out of the colonies and to Earth where 20 billion Humans needed it more. The Insurrectionists wanted freedom of that = They were being greedy.


Yes, fighting for freedom from a government that regulates everything that happens on one's territory is being greedy...right. I suppose every country must have started rebellions for independence were being greedy too rather than being oppressed by distant government...

  • 04.29.2011 4:51 PM PDT


Posted by: StealthSlasher2

Posted by: Dustin 6047

Posted by: Primo84
Posted by: zepedrodel
The insurrectionists if let free would led to galactic scale civil war.
So yes, SPARTANS II were needed even without the Covenant.
You make it sound as if there were no diplomatic solution.

Imagine a series of colonists who rise up after their wishes to be self-governed are squandered by a distant tyrant.

Unimaginable, amirite?


I'm pretty sure the UNSC didn't act as tyrants, they just controlled a lot of the money and food flow out of the colonies and to Earth where 20 billion Humans needed it more. The Insurrectionists wanted freedom of that = They were being greedy.


Yes, fighting for freedom from a government that regulates everything that happens on one's territory is being greedy...right. I suppose every country must have started rebellions for independence were being greedy too rather than being oppressed by distant government...


Difference. The example from today, America and England, the Americans didn't attack England and kill civilians.

The rebels? Caused massive civilian causalities with suicide bombings and I believe they launched a nuke at a heavily populated colony which resulted in a massive civilian death toll with massive radiation poisoning and other side effects.

The Rebels in halo were a major threat and were terrorists.

  • 04.29.2011 4:57 PM PDT

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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
The Rebels in halo were a major threat and were terrorists.
I think the UNSC may have lost the right to claim innocence when they put down a rebellion on Far Isle using nukes in 2492.

  • 04.29.2011 5:03 PM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: StealthSlasher2

Posted by: Dustin 6047

Posted by: Primo84
Posted by: zepedrodel
The insurrectionists if let free would led to galactic scale civil war.
So yes, SPARTANS II were needed even without the Covenant.
You make it sound as if there were no diplomatic solution.

Imagine a series of colonists who rise up after their wishes to be self-governed are squandered by a distant tyrant.

Unimaginable, amirite?


I'm pretty sure the UNSC didn't act as tyrants, they just controlled a lot of the money and food flow out of the colonies and to Earth where 20 billion Humans needed it more. The Insurrectionists wanted freedom of that = They were being greedy.


Yes, fighting for freedom from a government that regulates everything that happens on one's territory is being greedy...right. I suppose every country must have started rebellions for independence were being greedy too rather than being oppressed by distant government...


Difference. The example from today, America and England, the Americans didn't attack England and kill civilians.

The rebels? Caused massive civilian causalities with suicide bombings and I believe they launched a nuke at a heavily populated colony which resulted in a massive civilian death toll with massive radiation poisoning and other side effects.

The Rebels in halo were a major threat and were terrorists.


Irrelevant to what I'm saying about the goal of any given insurrection. Freedom from an oppressive force. Rebellions stemming from a combined civilian and militant population seldom, if ever in human history, spring up because they got greedy and want to keep things to themselves. How they go about achieving their goal is an entire matter entirely and had nothing to do with my post.

In regards to the main topic at hand the rebels have committed several atrocities in the name independence as you've pointed out, and the UNSCs response to create highly efficient killing machines to deal with this threat regardless of the moral implications is a necessary evil in my opinion as the job would not get done for anything less. I say this only in the event that diplomacy is not an option. By extension I'd consider Halsey the same way. Not so much a monster, but a necessary evil to finish this conflict before it truly gets out of hand and reaches full scale open civil war across all the colonies.

  • 04.29.2011 5:11 PM PDT


Posted by: Dustin 6047

Posted by: Primo84
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
The Rebels in halo were a major threat and were terrorists.
I think the UNSC may have lost the right to claim innocence when they put down a rebellion on Far Isle using nukes in 2492.


We don't know what the rebels were doing to be blasted dead. They could have been killing all the civilians so there wouldn't be a point on worrying about civilian casualties.


And the Rebels are innocent after this? http://www.halopedian.com/Mamore Or the Callisto Incident where they spaced the group searching for illegal goods, then brutally murdered the entire crew of the ship?

As Dustin said, the entire colony might have gone rebel and was producing weapons. "A massive rebel uprising".

The UNSC might not have a perfect record, but the rebels damned themselves when they started stuff like that. I think the UNSC wouldn't have cared as massively if the Rebels simply hadn't been fighting. If the Rebels hadn't been attacking the UNSC, or producing weapons, things wouldn't have gone so far.

  • 04.29.2011 5:17 PM PDT

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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaronThe Callisto Incident took place two years after the UNSC nuked one of their own populations.The UNSC might not have a perfect record, but the rebels damned themselves when they started stuff like that. I think the UNSC wouldn't have cared as massively if the Rebels simply hadn't been fighting. If the Rebels hadn't been attacking the UNSC, or producing weapons, things wouldn't have gone so far.Given Bungie's habit of basing elements of their story off of real-life events, this may be relevant.

It's a strikingly similar scenario, even more so if the British had nuked the Americans afterward.

  • 04.29.2011 5:29 PM PDT


Posted by: Primo84
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaronThe Callisto Incident took place two years after the UNSC nuked one of their own populations.The UNSC might not have a perfect record, but the rebels damned themselves when they started stuff like that. I think the UNSC wouldn't have cared as massively if the Rebels simply hadn't been fighting. If the Rebels hadn't been attacking the UNSC, or producing weapons, things wouldn't have gone so far.Given Bungie's habit of basing elements of their story off of real-life events, this may be relevant.

It's a strikingly similar scenario, even more so if the British had nuked the Americans afterward.


Similar, but different. The Americans didn't attack England did they? They also tried their best to resolve it peacefully before going into outright war.

Rebels, as far as I can see, not only attacked the inner colonies/UNSC, they also did not try diplomacy at all.

  • 04.29.2011 5:40 PM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: Primo84
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaronThe Callisto Incident took place two years after the UNSC nuked one of their own populations.The UNSC might not have a perfect record, but the rebels damned themselves when they started stuff like that. I think the UNSC wouldn't have cared as massively if the Rebels simply hadn't been fighting. If the Rebels hadn't been attacking the UNSC, or producing weapons, things wouldn't have gone so far.Given Bungie's habit of basing elements of their story off of real-life events, this may be relevant.

It's a strikingly similar scenario, even more so if the British had nuked the Americans afterward.


Similar, but different. The Americans didn't attack England did they? They also tried their best to resolve it peacefully before going into outright war.

Rebels, as far as I can see, not only attacked the inner colonies/UNSC, they also did not try diplomacy at all.



Keep in mind if you're going to compare colonial era events that things must be considered in terms of how standards were back then. For example despite the use of the word "massacre", the Boston Massacre only three people died. A far cry from massacres of today's world where weapons are more efficient, and more so in fictional universes where nukes and quick space travel make it easy to go out commit large scale atrocities.

In regards to the American Revolution example, while the English Colonies did not necessarily attack England at first, they did commit 'atrocities' (real light fare by today's standards) such as tar and feathering to England officials in the public before hostilities really began and other smaller acts in defiance to the crown. Eventually it would be Americans that would fire the first bullet against the British in the American Revolution. Again, hardly a truly dramatic moment if you're trying to line it up directly to fictional events taking place in the future, but for its time it's really not that different save for Americans being able to do anything on the British Isles themselves.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the majority of Halo canon starts after the rebellion begins turning violent necessitating the creation of the Spartans...not at the real root of discontent, but even then there are little things around the novels such as Contact Harvest or Cole Protocol that would imply that the UNSC's policies on controlling the colonies were still too tight despite attempts to fix issues peacefully, which would in turn lead to this bloody outcome.

  • 04.29.2011 6:02 PM PDT

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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Posted by: Primo84
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaronThe Callisto Incident took place two years after the UNSC nuked one of their own populations.The UNSC might not have a perfect record, but the rebels damned themselves when they started stuff like that. I think the UNSC wouldn't have cared as massively if the Rebels simply hadn't been fighting. If the Rebels hadn't been attacking the UNSC, or producing weapons, things wouldn't have gone so far.Given Bungie's habit of basing elements of their story off of real-life events, this may be relevant.

It's a strikingly similar scenario, even more so if the British had nuked the Americans afterward.


Similar, but different. The Americans didn't attack England did they? They also tried their best to resolve it peacefully before going into outright war.

Rebels, as far as I can see, not only attacked the inner colonies/UNSC, they also did not try diplomacy at all.

Sources sources sources!

  • 04.29.2011 6:06 PM PDT

True slasher, things back then would be considered harmless by todays standards...

Though, I think this comparison works.

American colonies vs England. America tries peaceful solutions, fighting starts, America still tries to get a peaceful outcome. England truly starts the war.

Rebels vs UNSC. I don't know how peaceful things started out, but regardless somewhere they went downhill. For reasons unknown, the bombing of that colony took place. However, in this case I see the rebels, not the UNSC increasing the fighting.

  • 04.29.2011 6:42 PM PDT

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