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Subject: Is Halsey a monster?

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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

American colonies vs England. America tries peaceful solutions, fighting starts, America still tries to get a peaceful outcome. England truly starts the war.


Not really...In terms of vague generalities you could put it that way and barely be considered "right", but when you consider the whole depth of what went on before the revolution between the English colonies and Britain, affairs between the states themselves, and how the rest of Europe was during that time period then your statement paints a very inaccurate picture of how things progressed.

  • 04.29.2011 6:50 PM PDT


Posted by: StealthSlasher2

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

American colonies vs England. America tries peaceful solutions, fighting starts, America still tries to get a peaceful outcome. England truly starts the war.


Not really...In terms of vague generalities you could put it that way and barely be considered "right", but when you consider the whole depth of what went on before the revolution between the English colonies and Britain, affairs between the states themselves, and how the rest of Europe was during that time period then your statement paints a very inaccurate picture of how things progressed.


Of course there is far more details and all that we could bring in, but I prefer not to have essay length posts to reply with/to.

On-topic. No, I don't consider Halsey a monster. She did what she could to end/prevent a rebellion from turning into a civil war with the least amount of deaths.

  • 04.29.2011 7:13 PM PDT
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Honor est praemium virtutis.

As unfortunate as it is, sometimes a little evil must be done to accomplish a greater good.

POSSIBLE SPOILERS AHEAD

And correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the datapads in Reach show that a group of AI were responsible for Dr Halsey starting the SPARTAN II program because they knew of a larger threat (The Covenant)? I'm vague with the details but HERE is the thread in which it's discussed.

[Edited on 04.29.2011 7:16 PM PDT]

  • 04.29.2011 7:15 PM PDT

http://www.halo-forum.com

The way I see it is that what Halsey did was monstrous but it was done out of necessity, not malice.

  • 04.29.2011 7:25 PM PDT

Lets Boogie

Its sad that the UNSC has to abduct children an experiment on children just to fight rebels.

Those Rebels were created because of there own policies, and instead of just fighting them with there military, they decided to go dirty and use children.

I know that Rebels have done wrong, but not all of them are extremists who blow up civilians. Technically anyone who has the ideology of creating a separate nation away from the UNSC is a rebel, and im sure there were plenty of had that idea but didn't resort to terrorism.

The UNSC is a One world government, and ive never liked that idea. Humanity is not meant to be ruled by one government.

[Edited on 04.29.2011 7:36 PM PDT]

  • 04.29.2011 7:31 PM PDT


Posted by: haloplayer2kill
Its sad that the UNSC has to abduct children an experiment on children just to fight rebels.

Those Rebels were created because of there own policies, and instead of just fighting them with there military, they decided to go dirty and use children.

I know that Rebels have done wrong, but not all of them are extremists who blow up civilians. Technically anyone who has the ideology of creating a separate nation away from the UNSC is a rebel, and im sure there were plenty of had that idea but didn't resort to terrorism.


That's the problem though. The way I see it, you had the guys who thought going extreme like the Callisto incident was okay, and just payback. The people under them went "Oh, boss said it was okay!" and spread news like that.

Another problem was you had several 'cells' of the rebels, and not one group which was trying to make life better. As somebody said one time in another topic, even if the Rebels had won their independence, could they have supported themselves as a 'nation'?

Even then, the ones who didn't care to fight already were away from the UNSC. They were the ones who built asteroid bases and stayed there, or in general left the UNSC alone.

And as Halsey predicted, if the UNSC didn't do something like Spartans, the outer colonies could all rebel and make weapons of mass destruction, causing a massively bloody civil war.

  • 04.29.2011 7:38 PM PDT

Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien.
Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar.
tenn' Ambar-metta!

No, She was right, sometimes you have to make small sacrifices for a greater good. Nothing comes free. In order to preserv the humans united needed to be a price to be paid. In this case, she sold 60 or more little childs to become into Spartans and save Billions of lifes and from the Flood. Some people need to do the dirty work, so we can have a decent life.

  • 04.29.2011 7:43 PM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
True slasher, things back then would be considered harmless by todays standards...

Though, I think this comparison works.

American colonies vs England. America tries peaceful solutions, fighting starts, America still tries to get a peaceful outcome. England truly starts the war.

Rebels vs UNSC. I don't know how peaceful things started out, but regardless somewhere they went downhill. For reasons unknown, the bombing of that colony took place. However, in this case I see the rebels, not the UNSC increasing the fighting.


I'm rather of the same mind on the matter of the Insurrection.

I'm not really on either side, but I think the Insurrection rightly bears most of the blame for starting the conflict between themselves and the UNSC. As far as I've heard they were the ones who started it all with the Callisto Incident, and things only escalated from there with the rebels getting more and more violent.

  • 04.29.2011 7:49 PM PDT


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
True slasher, things back then would be considered harmless by todays standards...

Though, I think this comparison works.

American colonies vs England. America tries peaceful solutions, fighting starts, America still tries to get a peaceful outcome. England truly starts the war.

Rebels vs UNSC. I don't know how peaceful things started out, but regardless somewhere they went downhill. For reasons unknown, the bombing of that colony took place. However, in this case I see the rebels, not the UNSC increasing the fighting.


I'm rather of the same mind on the matter of the Insurrection.

I'm not really on either side, but I think the Insurrection rightly bears most of the blame for starting the conflict between themselves and the UNSC. As far as I've heard they were the ones who started it all with the Callisto Incident, and things only escalated from there with the rebels getting more and more violent.


Might be wrong, but as my last post. I figure there was some point where somebody went "Are we going to far?" and the person above them went "No, they nuked the colony so this is fine and payback!" and the rest went "Oh okay!" and started doing crazy -blam!-.

I mean, yeah the Callisto's firing on the one crew was bad, but from what I gather a Navy person saw a crewman pulling a gun, and that started it.

Did that mean the rebels were right to space the inspection crew, brutally murder the rest of the UNSC personal on the ship and steal it, causing damage and more deaths to the destroyers sent to look for it?

I mean, right end goal, but completely wrong methods and mindset. The UNSC started mass military reconstruction BECAUSE of what the rebels were doing...

  • 04.29.2011 8:04 PM PDT

Halsey was a monster, but a monster serving a purpose. Anything that removes freedoms from a person in the way that the Spartan II program did is morally wrong. However, from a strictly logical point of view, the complete sacrifice of these children's lives had the ability to possibly prevent a extremely long and brutal war, so the moral wrong is justified.

  • 04.29.2011 8:18 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Karen Traviss thinks so and she's writing the post-Halo 3 novel. Should be interesting.

  • 04.29.2011 8:19 PM PDT


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Karen Traviss thinks so and she's writing the post-Halo 3 novel. Should be interesting.


As long as it matches other stuff. I mean, mindless bashing on Halsey won't get me as a fan.

  • 04.29.2011 8:52 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Karen Traviss thinks so and she's writing the post-Halo 3 novel. Should be interesting.


As long as it matches other stuff. I mean, mindless bashing on Halsey won't get me as a fan.

He wasn't a huge fan of the Jedi, but she wasn't TOO hard on them. I'm sure she'll be rational with Halsey.

  • 04.29.2011 9:01 PM PDT


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Karen Traviss thinks so and she's writing the post-Halo 3 novel. Should be interesting.


As long as it matches other stuff. I mean, mindless bashing on Halsey won't get me as a fan.

He wasn't a huge fan of the Jedi, but she wasn't TOO hard on them. I'm sure she'll be rational with Halsey.


That'll be alright.

  • 04.29.2011 9:39 PM PDT

Honestly if we consider her a monster then a lot of other people can be considered monsters because her job was to make a weapon (I know the SPARTANS are people but to UNSC their just killing machines) so she made them if this makes her a monster then the man who built the first rocket in china the first gun are also monsters while in reality they were just asked to make a weapon

  • 04.29.2011 10:00 PM PDT
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You aren't using the proper analogy.

This situation is not that of The American Revolution but The IRA versus England and the English Parliament's treatment of the Irish.

The English forced the Irish to grow crops for them. The only food source for the Irish was the potato. When the disease struck, it eliminated the Irish's only food source. The Parliament didn't do anything. The Irish sat there starving to death while boats full of wheat and oats sailed away to England.

Needless to say, the Irish were angry about this. The Parliament still didn't do anything. They told the Irish to shut up.

This bred a hatred for England that would burn in the hearts of the Irish for decades, eventually leading to the IRA and the terrorist PIRA. Suicide bombers on British buses killed people because of the mistreatment of their people long ago. That's where it began.

This is the same situation. The rebels aren't doing it for liberty but for revenge. They hate the UNSC because they're taking away food that in their eyes is needed in the Colonies.

This is why they aren't freedom fighters. This is why the insurrectionests are terrorists.

  • 04.29.2011 10:18 PM PDT

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Posted by: TheProfessor
You aren't using the proper analogy.

This situation is not that of The American Revolution but The IRA versus England and the English Parliament's treatment of the Irish.

The English forced the Irish to grow crops for them. The only food source for the Irish was the potato. When the disease struck, it eliminated the Irish's only food source. The Parliament didn't do anything. The Irish sat there starving to death while boats full of wheat and oats sailed away to England.

Needless to say, the Irish were angry about this. The Parliament still didn't do anything. They told the Irish to shut up.

This bred a hatred for England that would burn in the hearts of the Irish for decades, eventually leading to the IRA and the terrorist PIRA. Suicide bombers on British buses killed people because of the mistreatment of their people long ago. That's where it began.

This is the same situation. The rebels aren't doing it for liberty but for revenge. They hate the UNSC because they're taking away food that in their eyes is needed in the Colonies.

This is why they aren't freedom fighters. This is why the insurrectionests are terrorists.
I think you're on the right track, but there isn't some distinctive line between fighting for freedom and fighting for revenge; you can fight for both.

Up until Far Isle, the Insurrection was child's play. After the UNSC decided to nuke its own people, I think that's when the -blam!- hit the fan and the Insurrection became more akin to terrorism.

...still think Halsey is soulless monster though.

  • 04.29.2011 10:26 PM PDT
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I believe there is a line.

Terrorism is about an ends to a means, achieving what you want with the will to cause pain. It isn't a force of good.

But revolution has an ideal behind it. The idea that the intagible philosophy that you're fighting for is worth dieing for is the driving forcee for freedom fighters. Revenge may be involved, but it's not as important as the cause.

How they choose to fight the war is also important. Brutality is not the answer. Terrorist are willing to purposefully sacrifice innocent civilians while freedom fighters would never do such a thing.

That is the line between terrorism and freedom fighters in this case.

[Edited on 04.29.2011 10:42 PM PDT]

  • 04.29.2011 10:40 PM PDT


Posted by: Primo84
Up until Far Isle, the Insurrection was child's play. After the UNSC decided to nuke its own people, I think that's when the -blam!- hit the fan and the Insurrection became more akin to terrorism.

...still think Halsey is soulless monster though.


Thing is, we don't know WHY the UNSC nuked that colony/city (It's suspected that event is the scene of Origins with the longswords bombing the city.)

I mean, the rebels there could have been making bombs, or disrupting trade/power grids, etc. Until we know why it happened, all we know is the UNSC nuked it due to a massive rebel uprising.

  • 04.29.2011 10:46 PM PDT
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While I do believe that crushing the Insurrectionists was a good idea, I've begun to believe that ONI is a very corrupt organization that needs to be dealt with. Constant cover ups, questionable operations, ect. There are many things they do that by today's standards would be considered scandalous.



[Edited on 04.29.2011 10:59 PM PDT]

  • 04.29.2011 10:59 PM PDT

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  • 04.30.2011 12:32 AM PDT

There are a few facts we are missing here.


A) ONI likely knew of the covenant, and may have had contact with them before "First Contact". (see: Halsey's Journal)
B) UEG/UNSC population = 30 billion, Earth circa 2011 = 6.5 billion.
C) All diplomatic options had been exhausted. Regardless of whether you believe this or not, the two sides were preparing for war.

ONI/UNSC obviously thought that the pros outwheighed the cons, they had the best intentions at heart, i.e. saving the lives of billions.
It is probable that with the alien threat being known about by high ONI officials then the SPARTAN project filled two gaps in their defenses.

Halsey is no monster, she was told to do her job and did her best to save the young SPARTANS and be a mother to them.
ONI is the real monster, yet from this perspective, they saved humanity. Balances out don't you think?

  • 04.30.2011 7:59 AM PDT

Well, interesting points Cookie but I'm curious why you think of A being that way.

From what I've gathered Harvest was the point of actual contact between the two, besides the two transport raids which happened a short time before Harvest.

Though yeah, the nuking of the colony is really a bleh to bring in. I mean, we don't know why and if the UNSC nuked it, I'm fairly sure the rebel uprising was not peaceful protesting for more food.

  • 04.30.2011 11:33 AM PDT

(') (')
(0_o) ROAR!!!
(") (")

she made mc and jorge wich basicly get time and won the war....
so no she did what was neccery

  • 04.30.2011 11:50 AM PDT

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