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  • Subject: Why do people say N6 is better?
Subject: Why do people say N6 is better?

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

Posted by: ImpenetrableLIVE
Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Posted by: ImpenetrableLIVE
Is there any background about Spartan III's and what they had gone through or anything?


Well, they were forced to paradrop in the middle of the night when they first arrived to Onyx, take in mind that some were 4 years old.

They had pretty much the same training that the Spartan II's had minus the academics.


really? see i had no idea thanks dude. so why do a lot of people hate on them?


Because they all died, apparently no matter what you do, you cannot be a badass if you die, even though they didn't have Titanium armor or shields for that matter, unlike their glorified brothers, the Spartan II's.

  • 05.03.2011 8:15 PM PDT


Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Posted by: ImpenetrableLIVE
Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Posted by: ImpenetrableLIVE
Is there any background about Spartan III's and what they had gone through or anything?


Well, they were forced to paradrop in the middle of the night when they first arrived to Onyx, take in mind that some were 4 years old.

They had pretty much the same training that the Spartan II's had minus the academics.


really? see i had no idea thanks dude. so why do a lot of people hate on them?


Because they all died, apparently no matter what you do, you cannot be a badass if you die, even though they didn't have Titanium armor or shields for that matter, unlike their glorified brothers, the Spartan II's.


Actually, about the training, I've read three lines that the S3 training was better then S2 in terms of battle tactics, teamwork, and such.

Edit: You know, then Johnson isn't badass either. Or Keyes... or the good chunk of Spartan IIs.

[Edited on 05.03.2011 8:22 PM PDT]

  • 05.03.2011 8:20 PM PDT
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it just makes no sense to me that the UNSC would give them less armor like if they could have kept them alive everything would have gone great like after the II project you think they would only make bigger and better spartans instead of wasting lives like the quote mendez said lives spent or lives wasted because the spartan III's died and reach still fell it gotta seems like lives wasted.

  • 05.03.2011 8:20 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Posted by: ImpenetrableLIVE
Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Posted by: ImpenetrableLIVE
Is there any background about Spartan III's and what they had gone through or anything?


Well, they were forced to paradrop in the middle of the night when they first arrived to Onyx, take in mind that some were 4 years old.

They had pretty much the same training that the Spartan II's had minus the academics.


really? see i had no idea thanks dude. so why do a lot of people hate on them?


Because they all died, apparently no matter what you do, you cannot be a badass if you die, even though they didn't have Titanium armor or shields for that matter, unlike their glorified brothers, the Spartan II's.


Actually, about the training, I've read three lines that the S3 training was better then S2 in terms of battle tactics, teamwork, and such.

Edit: You know, then Johnson isn't badass either. Or Keyes... or the good chunk of Spartan IIs.


You understand what I'm trying to say.

  • 05.03.2011 8:24 PM PDT

If you're passionate about the thing you're talking about, I'll always lend an ear.

And everyone's still wondering why the S-IIs and S-IIIs are still different?

*Sigh

I just put a lengthy explanation, then 2 and 3 replies later it's like it never existed.

  • 05.04.2011 12:05 AM PDT

If you're passionate about the thing you're talking about, I'll always lend an ear.

Posted by: ImpenetrableLIVE
it just makes no sense to me that the UNSC would give them less armor like if they could have kept them alive everything would have gone great like after the II project you think they would only make bigger and better spartans instead of wasting lives like the quote mendez said lives spent or lives wasted because the spartan III's died and reach still fell it gotta seems like lives wasted.


The S-IIIs were always meant to be disposable soldiers, doing suicide missions on a very large scale basis. Cheaper equipment was part of the program. It is very much intentional.

  • 05.04.2011 12:06 AM PDT
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Ad eundum quo nemo ante iit

Posted by: ninjakenzen

No, they are not as far in terms of quality. But the principle of taking someone who has the trait of say Usain Bolt, and then training him in track compared to taking someone from a random street. Makes a Huge difference.


Except the Spartan II candidates were never born to be soldiers. The gene pool was necessary so that the augmentations would be as successful as possible.

In terms of augmentation and training. It was almost identical.

The Spartan-IIs however had recived specialised, nurtured training. While the S-IIIs were more focused on pumping out each candidate as fast as possible.

No, Spartan II's had a well rounded curriculum (you could even argue, bloated) compared to the III's, who were trained in teamwork and more complex battle tactics.

There's a difference when one group is being heavily focused by the likes of Halsey, Mendez etc and had extensive training over the couse of many years. A smaller group.

This is slightly ambiguous, on the one hand you're saying the II's are better because they spent longer in training, then that becomes a compliment to the skills of the, much younger, III's which had much less training but were equally (if not more) successful.

When compared to, a much LARGER class composed of many different groups, reduced funding. Training by Mendez and Kurt.(A positive thing)under the wing of Ackerson(Very bad thing), Improved augmentation rates(*) but a wider gene pool. Reduced amounts of extensive training. etc

I would argue that the training was more focused, not reduced.

The S-IIIs by all means ARE Spartans. But as a whole, the Spartan-IIs are just a different breed. A breed that had been fortunate enough to train under a circumstance not desperate and limited by funding and overpopulation. The S-II's by design,were meant to be a select few, the best of the best.

Except that the II's were trained during desperate times, (not end of humanity desperate, but still desperate enough to warrant the creation of the Spartan project) the insurrection, which was tearing the UNSC apart.

The S-IIIs had a different purpose. Produce as much as possible, with the best training possible at that time.
The difference here is, anyone can join(That is meeting the age requirement).

In conclusion:

From the very start the S-IIs were designed to be Humanity's best, the very BEST humanity can achieve under this time period.Funding for this was the single most expensive. However EACH candidate was extremely important,Bigger emphasis on Quality<Quantity.


Each candidate would have to be extremely important if you're only getting 33 of them into the field.

The S-IIIs were proposed as Cheap Disposable Soldiers, with the very best training and augmentation that the UNSC can provide.
However the emphasis on this program was Quantity > Quality.
They wanted as much as possible over a shorter time frame.

This WILL reflect on the S-IIIs ability compared to the S-IIs.

However they are still Spartans.
They have similar training, augmentations etc.

Just under very different conditions.

These conditions just cannot be ignored, as a whole the S-III program will never compare to the S-II, also noted by Halsey in Ghost of Onyx. But it doesn't make them crap or anything. Being a Spartan alone, is and always will be in the Halo universe be the best human military unit.


[Edited on 05.04.2011 2:13 AM PDT]

  • 05.04.2011 2:12 AM PDT
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Posted by: ThePredkiller2
Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: ThePredkiller2
Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Eh, that's fair. However, after reading about his many failings in combat, I just can't buy his superior badassness.

Not a word, but you get it.


And that is your opinion, and rightly so, because it is never a stated fact in any canon source that Master Chief is a badass.


It's never stated that Johnson's a badass either, yet almost everyone will agree he's a badass...
My point being it doesn't have to be stated in a canon source for the adjective to be true. If it fits, then it is not a false statement.


Master Chief has only been referred to as the best SPARTAN by Halsey. He is more renown as the luckiest. Based on the facts presented in the books, Kurt was the best, whereas Chief was the luckiest. He is still my favorite, don't get me wrong, but because he is my favorite I know he is not the best SPARTAN, just the luckiest.

It is because he is so flawed that he is my favorite. Other than his death, B312 was a flawless character, the best in every way, which is why I don't like him so much.

What makes Kurt obviously the "Best Spartan"?

Don't get me wrong, I love Kurt's character, I'm just curious about the justification of such a claim.

  • 05.04.2011 10:04 AM PDT


Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Posted by: ImpenetrableLIVE
Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Posted by: ImpenetrableLIVE
Is there any background about Spartan III's and what they had gone through or anything?


Well, they were forced to paradrop in the middle of the night when they first arrived to Onyx, take in mind that some were 4 years old.

They had pretty much the same training that the Spartan II's had minus the academics.


really? see i had no idea thanks dude. so why do a lot of people hate on them?


Because they all died, apparently no matter what you do, you cannot be a badass if you die, even though they didn't have Titanium armor or shields for that matter, unlike their glorified brothers, the Spartan II's.


Wasn't the only really fundamental difference in armor between the IIs and IIIs the fact that one was built for stealth and didn't have shields while the other did? I thought the basic armor was exactly the same for both classes and only the tech was what was really different between them.

  • 05.04.2011 10:29 AM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Posted by: ImpenetrableLIVE
Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Posted by: ImpenetrableLIVE
Is there any background about Spartan III's and what they had gone through or anything?


Well, they were forced to paradrop in the middle of the night when they first arrived to Onyx, take in mind that some were 4 years old.

They had pretty much the same training that the Spartan II's had minus the academics.


really? see i had no idea thanks dude. so why do a lot of people hate on them?


Because they all died, apparently no matter what you do, you cannot be a badass if you die, even though they didn't have Titanium armor or shields for that matter, unlike their glorified brothers, the Spartan II's.


Wasn't the only really fundamental difference in armor between the IIs and IIIs the fact that one was built for stealth and didn't have shields while the other did? I thought the basic armor was exactly the same for both classes and only the tech was what was really different between them.


Nope, SPI was made of hardened plates, but not of Titanium like the MJOLNIR Mark IV/V/VI, that's why it was easier to transport, it didn't weight as much or was as bulky.

So even when it came to normal armor, theirs was inferior in every single way, and they still got their job done despite their disadvantage.

  • 05.04.2011 10:32 AM PDT

http://www.halo-forum.com

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Posted by: ImpenetrableLIVE
Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Posted by: ImpenetrableLIVE
Is there any background about Spartan III's and what they had gone through or anything?


Well, they were forced to paradrop in the middle of the night when they first arrived to Onyx, take in mind that some were 4 years old.

They had pretty much the same training that the Spartan II's had minus the academics.


really? see i had no idea thanks dude. so why do a lot of people hate on them?


Because they all died, apparently no matter what you do, you cannot be a badass if you die, even though they didn't have Titanium armor or shields for that matter, unlike their glorified brothers, the Spartan II's.


Wasn't the only really fundamental difference in armor between the IIs and IIIs the fact that one was built for stealth and didn't have shields while the other did? I thought the basic armor was exactly the same for both classes and only the tech was what was really different between them.

No, the armour was completely different. SPI, is only semi-powered (for electronics and HUD), does not enhance the user's physical sped or strength and has no shields. SPI is more like ODST armour on roids, still nowhere near as good as MJOLNIR.

  • 05.04.2011 10:33 AM PDT

Yep. SPI = ODST with stealth plating. That's pretty much it.

  • 05.04.2011 10:35 AM PDT

Posted by: Assassin 11D7
If Noble 6 wasn't on reach or had died earlier chief would have been screwed.


without cortana in the chief's head, everyone would have been "F"d in the "A"

  • 05.04.2011 10:36 AM PDT

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Yep. SPI = ODST with stealth plating. That's pretty much it.


really? SPI is that simple?
I thought it was at least a little more like Mjolnir

  • 05.04.2011 10:36 AM PDT

http://www.halo-forum.com

Posted by: Son Of Mountains
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Yep. SPI = ODST with stealth plating. That's pretty much it.


really? SPI is that simple?
I thought it was at least a little more like Mjolnir

Nope, it's photo-reactive plating was it's biggest advantage and it may have been made of slightly more resilient materials. I'd say it would be better than ODST but not by alot, still nowhere near MJOLNIR.

  • 05.04.2011 10:39 AM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

Posted by: Son Of Mountains
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Yep. SPI = ODST with stealth plating. That's pretty much it.


really? SPI is that simple?
I thought it was at least a little more like Mjolnir


Nope, apart from the similarities in color and in armor pattern (which is vague) they are totally different.

  • 05.04.2011 10:39 AM PDT

"The object of war is not die for your counrty but to make the other bastard die for his."

Good debate...but I see one 'side' continuing to perpetuate this idea that Noble 6 is so badass because he made militia's and terrorist organizations disappear.
A significant feat by any measure of military action, but something I think everyone is forgetting is that more than likely N6 did this by using some kind of bomb (i.e. nuke) and/or spacing members of the organization. "Again" no small feat but what I am saying is that: did he sit off on mountain and snipe everyone and then reload and be like huh I win I'm a badass?? No he did not.

He might have killed a few from range or hell lets say a lot of people from range, but to believe that he was just taking this groups on militarily by himself and winning is to not understand what makes a Spartan a Spartan. While he may have been at an advantage militarily he would 'not' throw his element of surprise away even if this meant not being in armor, gaining the organizations trust and then spacing the leaders at an opportune time and then running getting his armor back on, and then killing the rest in the fray when he gets back(which again could be very shortly).

Again, hypothetical situation created by me; and I'm not completely sure on the S3's ability to remove their armor and stuff like that I'd have to go give the books a read again. Again, my point remains that MC could just have easily done the same considering that they all had extensive training in tactics. To say that MC would have done better that N6 is not justifiable in any way; and after MC spent so much time on Halo I would say he would have done worse than N6 in this mission BUT.

The reason he would do worse is because of the situation he had been fighting in for a long time on Halo. That is, he got to Halo and the covenant already knew he was there, his grand element of surprise was gone; in individual battle obviously MC still had surprise and his tactics played a significant role, but the point remains that he was being hunted (as all humans were) on Halo. The difference in these engagements is one is a full on military engagement and battle whereas N6's fights while no less impressive in my mind are more akin to a sniper's job. That is the enemy didn't necessarily know until too late that he was there, or what he precisely was.

Again, personal choice if you believe that N6 ran into these organizations gun's blazing and killed everything and walked out and was like damn...I slept at a Holiday Inn last night, well then ya I guess I can see why you believe he's more badass.

I choose to believe MC is more badass because after everything he was put into a situation where the covenant were essentially hunting him and he remained victorious (could have happened to N6 in one of his many situations if you want it to, but we have no proof, and against the terrorists that is)

As far as enhancements in the books go; SII's were better suited for and received better and stronger enhancements than the SIII's to choose to believe anything else is naive. Just accept the fact that they were.. And as far as team based combat goes...MC wins hands down, but this has everything to do with the way he was taught. SII's were taught in ways similar to our SEALs are trained and this tight-knit group will always typically be better in combat depending on what they are engaging.

It's a common problem we face in the current military; the most prevalent being the many different special forces and the constant reminder that you can't 'create' special forces they are there when you train them. In other words stop trying to mass produce them...it doesn't work (U.S. military is fighting this thought right now and constantly)

In final, those who like N6 when did you start playing Halo? I'm wondering if relatively new people to the series like N6 better because they can associate with him better because his back story is less filled out. That was the original reason that MC was grasped by so many people...
And lastly, remember that the SIII's were trained to go on suicide missions and if they were successful then the impact is huge. In other words; SIII's = Battle Changer SII's= Force Multiplier (they are meant to stay alive, their role is as defined more difficult than SIII's but that's not to say that SIII's didn't fill in some of these roles also just that they weren't 'designed' to.)

TL:DR
MC and N6 are badass...MC is more badasser

  • 05.04.2011 11:04 AM PDT

Chief - sitting in the PoA not doing -blam!-
6 - refuse to go in the PoA and survive just to protect it and save Chief's lazy ass.
I think this is why.

  • 05.04.2011 2:18 PM PDT


Posted by: C0MIC RELIEF

Posted by: ThePredkiller2
Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: ThePredkiller2
Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Eh, that's fair. However, after reading about his many failings in combat, I just can't buy his superior badassness.

Not a word, but you get it.


And that is your opinion, and rightly so, because it is never a stated fact in any canon source that Master Chief is a badass.


It's never stated that Johnson's a badass either, yet almost everyone will agree he's a badass...
My point being it doesn't have to be stated in a canon source for the adjective to be true. If it fits, then it is not a false statement.


Master Chief has only been referred to as the best SPARTAN by Halsey. He is more renown as the luckiest. Based on the facts presented in the books, Kurt was the best, whereas Chief was the luckiest. He is still my favorite, don't get me wrong, but because he is my favorite I know he is not the best SPARTAN, just the luckiest.

It is because he is so flawed that he is my favorite. Other than his death, B312 was a flawless character, the best in every way, which is why I don't like him so much.

What makes Kurt obviously the "Best Spartan"?

Don't get me wrong, I love Kurt's character, I'm just curious about the justification of such a claim.


As am I. I really don't see anything about Kurt that would make him the best, he has an innate sense and ability to sniff out ambushes, but that alone wouldn't make one the best.

  • 05.04.2011 2:20 PM PDT


Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Posted by: Son Of Mountains
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Yep. SPI = ODST with stealth plating. That's pretty much it.


really? SPI is that simple?
I thought it was at least a little more like Mjolnir


Nope, apart from the similarities in color and in armor pattern (which is vague) they are totally different.

No that simple, the armor resistance is between MJONIL and ODST battle suit.
It can use features like a shield and active camo (i think this features were only used by Headhunters)

  • 05.04.2011 2:23 PM PDT


Posted by: zepedrodel
Chief - sitting in the PoA not doing -blam!-
6 - refuse to go in the PoA and survive just to protect it and save Chief's lazy ass.
I think this is why.


We don't know what Chief was doing while the Autumn was on the ground, he may have been on the Autumn, but it certainly wouldn't be from choice. I very highly doubt that he would remain voluntarily on the Autumn while fighting was going on all around it. I think that if he was on the ship, then it probably would have been because Keyes ordered him to stay there.

  • 05.04.2011 2:23 PM PDT
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Read the fall of reach, and honestly halo reach really messed up the canon
Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: zepedrodel
Chief - sitting in the PoA not doing -blam!-
6 - refuse to go in the PoA and survive just to protect it and save Chief's lazy ass.
I think this is why.


We don't know what Chief was doing while the Autumn was on the ground, he may have been on the Autumn, but it certainly wouldn't be from choice. I very highly doubt that he would remain voluntarily on the Autumn while fighting was going on all around it. I think that if he was on the ship, then it probably would have been because Keyes ordered him to stay there.

  • 05.04.2011 8:27 PM PDT
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Posted by: keeno 111
Look out it's the spartan III defence force, Can't admit they were disposable soldiers and that spartan II's were seperior in every single way.

Except they really weren't. When it came to effectiveness on the field the only real difference between the two were that the II's had more experience, mjolner, and weren't commanded by retards.

  • 05.04.2011 9:43 PM PDT