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This topic has moved here: Subject: Why does no one remember that John isn't an exceptional Spartan?
  • Subject: Why does no one remember that John isn't an exceptional Spartan?
Subject: Why does no one remember that John isn't an exceptional Spartan?

Posted by: MGTrey
Chief actually changed the probability vectors in his favor in all matter he interacts with, and all situations he perceives, which is colloquially referred to as "luck". He's just that badass ladies and gentlemen.


No, he analyzed the situations at hand, and noted the fall points and weaknesses of the combatant, and then exploited them. That is not "luck" that is "skill" from many years of rigorous training and combat.

In the end, luck fails.

  • 05.16.2011 12:21 AM PDT


Posted by: MGTrey
Chief actually changed the probability vectors in his favor in all matter he interacts with, and all situations he perceives, which is colloquially referred to as "luck". He's just that badass ladies and gentlemen.


Oh, so he did that purposefully? I didn't know that!

In a more serious note, LUCK is not a reason for him being exceptional. Predkiller I believe pointed out, from a military/scientific standpoint, you can't truly say "That guy is better." 'why?' "He's lucky."

  • 05.16.2011 2:56 AM PDT
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact


Posted by: switch 104 sv
Posted by: SHAOLINMONKEY 93
Master chief wasn't the best Spartan out there? Yet he was one of the very few still alive after the events of Halo 3.

Yeah he was pretty average if you ask me.

/Sarcasm

if the Chief was put in the same position as most of the Spartans who did die he too would be dead. Besides, the Best Spartan is still alive, Fred.
Oh, and there are over 300 Spartans left.


Prove me that Fred is the best of them all.

And if Chief was in position as other spartans then other things could have happened,why?Everyone acts different.

An exemple:Jorges death.He died because he detonated the FTL drive and he couldn't safe himself by jumping cause he had no re-entry thing.

The Chief on the other hand might have done it different:
-He has demonstrated more guts then anyone else.He dares to jump on top of an Assault carrier,he dared to jump out of the Keyship,he risked his life but managed to survive it.

Chief might have tooken the re-entry suit with him.If he hadn't then he would probably detonated the FTL and jump out of the corvette with Halo 2-3 style.He might have survived or not.But my point is,Spartans act different.

I can give more exemples like Cal,she died because she sacrifised herself but if chief was in her postition,he might have blocked the hammer with is head instead of jumping in front of it.

Get my point?

Now the SIII suicide missions are another story unless he pulls of a Tom-Lucy trick.

  • 05.16.2011 7:35 AM PDT

http://www.halo-forum.com

Posted by: hotshot revan II

Posted by: switch 104 sv
Posted by: SHAOLINMONKEY 93
Master chief wasn't the best Spartan out there? Yet he was one of the very few still alive after the events of Halo 3.

Yeah he was pretty average if you ask me.

/Sarcasm

if the Chief was put in the same position as most of the Spartans who did die he too would be dead. Besides, the Best Spartan is still alive, Fred.
Oh, and there are over 300 Spartans left.


Prove me that Fred is the best of them all.

Well the Chief, the supposed best Spartan, thinks that Fred is the best, better than him. I think that says alot.

And if Chief was in position as other spartans then other things could have happened,why?Everyone acts different.

An exemple:Jorges death.He died because he detonated the FTL drive and he couldn't safe himself by jumping cause he had no re-entry thing.

I think the point was that the Slipspace Drive needed to be set off by hand, leaving no time for an epic "Master Chief" styled escape.

The Chief on the other hand might have done it different:
-He has demonstrated more guts then anyone else.He dares to jump on top of an Assault carrier,he dared to jump out of the Keyship,he risked his life but managed to survive it.

And you think that he's the only Spartan to have performed an amazing act of bravery? Or that he's the only one who would have done those things?

Chief might have tooken the re-entry suit with him.If he hadn't then he would probably detonated the FTL and jump out of the corvette with Halo 2-3 style.He might have survived or not.But my point is,Spartans act different.
Jorge, or his would-be replacement, had to leave the re-entry pack behind if I'm not mistaken. He asks 6 to override it so he can float from the Sabre to the Pelican without re-entering Reach's atmosphere. And again, I don't think there was any time to escape the explosion.

I can give more exemples like Cal,she died because she sacrifised herself but if chief was in her postition,he might have blocked the hammer with is head instead of jumping in front of it.
The Spartans are depicted badly in Legends and I have no doubt that the Chief would have survived that mission were he chosen. Cal was made to look like an idiot.



[Edited on 05.16.2011 8:15 AM PDT]

  • 05.16.2011 8:14 AM PDT


Posted by: ThePredkiller2
Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: DekarLawrencium
I would say, from my experiences in life, that quantifiable attributes do not completely define how skilled you are at anything. There is always that 'something' that some people are able to do that defies expectations and is unable to be measured. That's what Halsey meant by 'luck.' She saw that John had the spark of insight that led him to the right conclusion on how to get through a multitude of desperate situations. You don't need to be the smartest, the strongest or the fastest to excel; you just need that drive. Chief had that drive; Halsey could see it in his eyes, hear it in his speech and see it in his every action. That's why Kurt was second-best, because he lacked John's incorrigible determination to always win, excel and exceed.

John also had the insight to get ambushed pretty frequently...

:/


Fred, Kelly, and Linda all fell into the Innie trap too...it wasn't just Chief. I don't see why it happening to Chief automatically makes him any less than the other three who also fell for the same trap. Even the best make mistakes sometimes, but one mistake (no matter how big) does not mean one is not the best...and as far as John's military career has been told in the story that was the only instance of him ever being taken in an ambush.


You're forgetting about the Grunts on the Pillar of Autumn... and the Flood... and falling into Gravemind's trap... among others...


Um, what ambush from the Grunts? And I have absolutely no memory whatsoever of the Flood ever ambushing Chief at all, if you's talking about when he first encountered the Flood after watching Jenkins helmet cam then that doesn't count, he already knew something was up just from the entire lack of anything being there and the lack of bodies despite copious amounts of blood and gore.
The only trap from the Gravemind that comes to mind is letting Cortana get a message out to Earth, but even that's a stretch.

As I said in the last post, that Insurrectionist trap is the only instance listed of any ambush that Chief fell into.

  • 05.16.2011 8:54 AM PDT

Posted by switch 104 sv
Jorge, or his would-be replacement, had to leave the re-entry pack behind if I'm not mistaken. He asks 6 to override it so he can float from the Sabre to the Pelican without re-entering Reach's atmosphere. And again, I don't think there was any time to escape the explosion.


Sorry that this is a little off-topic, but huh O_o

How would the reentry pack force him to reenter Reach's atmosphere? I'm just not seeing the connection between the two :/

Well the Chief, the supposed best Spartan, thinks that Fred is the best, better than him. I think that says alot.

None of the Spartans are arrogant, so that shouldn't be a surprise that he doesn't call himself the best, and also I could be the best soccer player bu think that someone else is better, that doesn't mean I wouldn't be the best, that would just mean I didn't think my own abilities were all that special. My point being Chief doesn't have to think he's the best in order for it to be true. And IIRC, I seem to recall Fred thinking something similar about Chief in Ghosts of Onyx, that's not what makes me think Chief is the best though, that just makes me think that none of the Spartans will call themselves the best, because arrogance is not really in their nature.

  • 05.16.2011 9:19 AM PDT


Posted by: OrderedComa
Um, what ambush from the Grunts? And I have absolutely no memory whatsoever of the Flood ever ambushing Chief at all, if you's talking about when he first encountered the Flood after watching Jenkins helmet cam then that doesn't count, he already knew something was up just from the entire lack of anything being there and the lack of bodies despite copious amounts of blood and gore.
The only trap from the Gravemind that comes to mind is letting Cortana get a message out to Earth, but even that's a stretch.

As I said in the last post, that Insurrectionist trap is the only instance listed of any ambush that Chief fell into.


Three grunts dropped from the ceiling as MC went through the PoA. They had plasma grenades ready, planning to pull his helm off, stick his head, then slam the helm back on.

  • 05.16.2011 9:49 AM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: OrderedComa
Um, what ambush from the Grunts? And I have absolutely no memory whatsoever of the Flood ever ambushing Chief at all, if you's talking about when he first encountered the Flood after watching Jenkins helmet cam then that doesn't count, he already knew something was up just from the entire lack of anything being there and the lack of bodies despite copious amounts of blood and gore.
The only trap from the Gravemind that comes to mind is letting Cortana get a message out to Earth, but even that's a stretch.

As I said in the last post, that Insurrectionist trap is the only instance listed of any ambush that Chief fell into.


Three grunts dropped from the ceiling as MC went through the PoA. They had plasma grenades ready, planning to pull his helm off, stick his head, then slam the helm back on.


O_o I still don't remember that, haha, well not really anyway, I remember a part where Grunts tried to pull his helmet off and stick him that way, but I don't remember the specifics of it or anything.

  • 05.16.2011 9:52 AM PDT

"Wake me...when you need me."

OP clearly doesn't know anything about the Halo Universe. /thread

  • 05.16.2011 10:17 AM PDT


Posted by: RKOSNAKE

Posted by: IBumpElectro
Thats weird...in Halseys journal that came with the Limited edition of reach she writes that there was one spartan that stood out. one that was best at everything Spartan 117.


Doubt it, Kelly could outrun him any day, Linda could outsnipe him, Kurt could out-lead him(sp?), Fred could beat him in CQC, etc, etc. If I remember well, Fred always came up in second place in everything, John even mentions that he did it because he didn't want the attention, so if there is a "best" Spartan, that'd be Fred.
overall, john is a better spartan, while the others had one specific advantage

  • 05.16.2011 10:31 AM PDT

http://www.halo-forum.com

Posted by: OrderedComa
Posted by switch 104 sv
Jorge, or his would-be replacement, had to leave the re-entry pack behind if I'm not mistaken. He asks 6 to override it so he can float from the Sabre to the Pelican without re-entering Reach's atmosphere. And again, I don't think there was any time to escape the explosion.


Sorry that this is a little off-topic, but huh O_o

How would the reentry pack force him to reenter Reach's atmosphere? I'm just not seeing the connection between the two :/

I'm assuming that the re-entry pack activates automatically when exposed to the gravitational pull of a planet. Why else would Jorge need to take it off? In any case, the reason I brought it up was to point out that if it were the Chief in Jorge;s shoes he too would lack a re-entry pack and wouldn't have survived either.

Well the Chief, the supposed best Spartan, thinks that Fred is the best, better than him. I think that says alot.

None of the Spartans are arrogant, so that shouldn't be a surprise that he doesn't call himself the best, and also I could be the best soccer player bu think that someone else is better, that doesn't mean I wouldn't be the best, that would just mean I didn't think my own abilities were all that special. My point being Chief doesn't have to think he's the best in order for it to be true. And IIRC, I seem to recall Fred thinking something similar about Chief in Ghosts of Onyx, that's not what makes me think Chief is the best though, that just makes me think that none of the Spartans will call themselves the best, because arrogance is not really in their nature.

No but they will look at it objectively. The Chief's analysis of Fred's ability is an educated one and has some merit. But Like I said before, all the Spartans are practically equal with only minor differences and variations. The Chief not being "the best" doesn't mean he still isn't amazing.

  • 05.16.2011 10:38 AM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

MC is more of a "right place right time" kinda Spartan. Not to mention in most all the events of Halo CE - 3 he is accompanied by Cortana. MC is best in a team and for most of his story Cortana gives that to him.

[Edited on 05.16.2011 11:28 AM PDT]

  • 05.16.2011 11:28 AM PDT

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Posted by: Deus_Ex_Machina
Cortana 5 is a carbon-based lifeform that frequently visits these forums, currently residing in the United States. Practically every male on the site responds to her posts.

The Joyeuse IP Formula

You pull out your pistol, and pound the switch to open the door. Oddly , this is familiar to you, as if it were from an old dream, but you can't exactly remember...
Ladies (probably not) and gentlemen,

Please do not be so quick scroll down to post a quirky comeback to what I'm about to say. I would like to refer you all to the idea that this is a plot device. You will find practically the same discussion surrounding the security officer you play as in Marathon (MJOLNIR Recon Number 54)... kind of.

But let's get something clear, we're not sure what you are.
(Manual page 2):
It's funny, but you've always been the colony's trouble shooter. You're bigger and stronger, and a better shot. In games, you always scored the most points and looked the hero.


"Luck" in Spartan 117's case should not be taken in its literal form. We cold start listing his fateful events with the coin, but we could also start listing fateful events with other Spartans and characters in the Haloverse.
The Fact of the matter is that he was the one that Halsey put so much faith in.
Halsey's Journal, December 10, 2518:
Besides, I already know who will be their leader.
I knew the first day I met him.

And that he was the one that played a huge role in fighting the flood (and Covenant). Before that, was it luck or skill that got him to Halo on the PoA alive? Perhaps that's the luck that the writers were eluding to?

He saved the -blam!- galaxy, and he's still statistically average? Perhaps that's the point. While I don't think that Halo: CE was written to depict John as average, it certainly doesn't depict the protagonist as getting more physically powerful, and he still wins.


Back to Marathon, the final screen leaves us with much to ponder upon.
Yet I cannot help remember one enigma. A hybrid, elusive destroyer. This is the only mystery I have not solved. The only element unaccounted for.

But you were dead a thousand times. Hopeless encounters successfully won. A man long dead, grafted to machines your builders did not understand.

I know who you are. You are destiny.
Is that the plot device? Something we can't exactly put our finger on. The "you should be dead" factor? You can't measure luck or destiny, but apparently John is lucky and MRN54 is destiny.

Sorry that this doesn't provide a definitive answer, but I hope it does provide some insight in to the point of making John's character the way it is.

Yes, I know look like I'm a crazy rambler.

  • 05.16.2011 11:34 AM PDT
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Beauty is not subjective. Anyone who says otherwise is an idiot.
Prove me wrong.
I dare you.
My logic is undeniable.

Oh, you people amuse me. Chief ain't the best, huh?
Well, let me remind you of his first day of boot, at the 'playground'.
There were teams, right? Yeah, there were.
They had to run to a pole, get on a basket, and pull up until they reached a bell and they had to ring it to win.
Well, guess what, idiots?
John was the first of all Spartans to ring the bell.
Yeah, he bested the opposing teams AND his own team, as well.
Hehehe.

  • 05.16.2011 12:03 PM PDT

The halo reach limited edition journal says he was exceptional.

Dr. Halsey is more reliable.

  • 05.16.2011 12:06 PM PDT

Posted by: Switch 104 sv
I'm assuming that the re-entry pack activates automatically when exposed to the gravitational pull of a planet. Why else would Jorge need to take it off? In any case, the reason I brought it up was to point out that if it were the Chief in Jorge;s shoes he too would lack a re-entry pack and wouldn't have survived either.


Yes, but what would it activating (if there is even anything to activate) do that would necessitate removing it to go over to the Pelican?

I'm not disputing that, I know that Chief would be in the exact same boat without any sort of object to shield him from the heat on his reentry. Actually do we even know if if reentry without any pack or some sort of object to shield them would kill a Spartan? I'm sure they'd probably be in poor shape, but would it even kill them? I seem to recall Maria dropping into the field test of the Mark VI from orbit, and she didn't have any sort of shielding or anything between her and the raw forces of reentry, the opening to that comic actually made me think it was Chief on his reentry to Earth in Halo 3 :P haha.

No but they will look at it objectively. The Chief's analysis of Fred's ability is an educated one and has some merit. But Like I said before, all the Spartans are practically equal with only minor differences and variations. The Chief not being "the best" doesn't mean he still isn't amazing.

I can understand that. Yeah, I think a lot of people in this debate tend to make their arguments sound like Chief isn't even exceptional regardless of what they really think, and those on my side often do the same with the other Spartans. There is definitely no denying that Chief is one of the best of the best amongst the Spartans. I think you'd have to be pretty ignorant of Halo lore to claim that Chief is not amazing or exceptional in any way.

[Edited on 05.16.2011 12:17 PM PDT]

  • 05.16.2011 12:06 PM PDT

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: MGTrey
Chief actually changed the probability vectors in his favor in all matter he interacts with, and all situations he perceives, which is colloquially referred to as "luck". He's just that badass ladies and gentlemen.


Oh, so he did that purposefully? I didn't know that!

In a more serious note, LUCK is not a reason for him being exceptional. Predkiller I believe pointed out, from a military/scientific standpoint, you can't truly say "That guy is better." 'why?' "He's lucky."


Exactly, and I think that proves Halsey wasn't as professional or intelligent as we believe her to be.

  • 05.16.2011 9:13 PM PDT


Posted by: ThePredkiller2
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: MGTrey
Chief actually changed the probability vectors in his favor in all matter he interacts with, and all situations he perceives, which is colloquially referred to as "luck". He's just that badass ladies and gentlemen.


Oh, so he did that purposefully? I didn't know that!

In a more serious note, LUCK is not a reason for him being exceptional. Predkiller I believe pointed out, from a military/scientific standpoint, you can't truly say "That guy is better." 'why?' "He's lucky."


Exactly, and I think that proves Halsey wasn't as professional or intelligent as we believe her to be.


Well, I don't think she was any less professional or intelligent. I simply believe luck wasn't the reason he was among the best. It's just a 'side effect' he was lucky (lol pun) to have.

  • 05.16.2011 9:19 PM PDT

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: ThePredkiller2
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: MGTrey
Chief actually changed the probability vectors in his favor in all matter he interacts with, and all situations he perceives, which is colloquially referred to as "luck". He's just that badass ladies and gentlemen.


Oh, so he did that purposefully? I didn't know that!

In a more serious note, LUCK is not a reason for him being exceptional. Predkiller I believe pointed out, from a military/scientific standpoint, you can't truly say "That guy is better." 'why?' "He's lucky."


Exactly, and I think that proves Halsey wasn't as professional or intelligent as we believe her to be.


Well, I don't think she was any less professional or intelligent. I simply believe luck wasn't the reason he was among the best. It's just a 'side effect' he was lucky (lol pun) to have.


Well, professional but not exactly less intelligent...I guess.

I still vote Noble Six for best SPARTAN...

  • 05.16.2011 9:22 PM PDT

KIWIZ RULE THE WORLD!

Its just that nobody knows it yet...

Doesn't it say in fall of reach or something that he exceeded in tactics and CQC?

  • 05.17.2011 2:26 AM PDT


Posted by: cortana 5
You pull out your pistol, and pound the switch to open the door. Oddly , this is familiar to you, as if it were from an old dream, but you can't exactly remember...
Ladies (probably not) and gentlemen,

Please do not be so quick scroll down to post a quirky comeback to what I'm about to say. I would like to refer you all to the idea that this is a plot device. You will find practically the same discussion surrounding the security officer you play as in Marathon (MJOLNIR Recon Number 54)... kind of.

But let's get something clear, we're not sure what you are.
(Manual page 2):
It's funny, but you've always been the colony's trouble shooter. You're bigger and stronger, and a better shot. In games, you always scored the most points and looked the hero.


"Luck" in Spartan 117's case should not be taken in its literal form. We cold start listing his fateful events with the coin, but we could also start listing fateful events with other Spartans and characters in the Haloverse.
The Fact of the matter is that he was the one that Halsey put so much faith in.
Halsey's Journal, December 10, 2518:
Besides, I already know who will be their leader.
I knew the first day I met him.

And that he was the one that played a huge role in fighting the flood (and Covenant). Before that, was it luck or skill that got him to Halo on the PoA alive? Perhaps that's the luck that the writers were eluding to?

He saved the -blam!- galaxy, and he's still statistically average? Perhaps that's the point. While I don't think that Halo: CE was written to depict John as average, it certainly doesn't depict the protagonist as getting more physically powerful, and he still wins.


Back to Marathon, the final screen leaves us with much to ponder upon.
Yet I cannot help remember one enigma. A hybrid, elusive destroyer. This is the only mystery I have not solved. The only element unaccounted for.

But you were dead a thousand times. Hopeless encounters successfully won. A man long dead, grafted to machines your builders did not understand.

I know who you are. You are destiny.
Is that the plot device? Something we can't exactly put our finger on. The "you should be dead" factor? You can't measure luck or destiny, but apparently John is lucky and MRN54 is destiny.

Sorry that this doesn't provide a definitive answer, but I hope it does provide some insight in to the point of making John's character the way it is.

Yes, I know look like I'm a crazy rambler.


Interesting, that was a cool read and intriguing take on it all :D I can't whether there are ladies in this thread, but there is at least one, as I'm a lady :P So maybe it's just lady and gentlemen XD

OT:
I'm not entirely sure what you're advocating for John, but I can tell that you think he is exceptional and definitely outstanding amongst the Spartans.

  • 05.17.2011 9:15 AM PDT

<3 PMS Clan-Twitter-Personal Site
Posted by: Deus_Ex_Machina
Cortana 5 is a carbon-based lifeform that frequently visits these forums, currently residing in the United States. Practically every male on the site responds to her posts.

The Joyeuse IP Formula

Posted by: OrderedComa
Interesting, that was a cool read and intriguing take on it all :D I can't whether there are ladies in this thread, but there is at least one, as I'm a lady :P So maybe it's just lady and gentlemen XD

OT:
I'm not entirely sure what you're advocating for John, but I can tell that you think he is exceptional and definitely outstanding amongst the Spartans.
Yaaay! I'm not the only girl in this thread!

Anyways, OT, etc.
I think that John not being physically the best Spartan ever helps his case, if anything.

  • 05.17.2011 9:33 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Beauty is not subjective. Anyone who says otherwise is an idiot.
Prove me wrong.
I dare you.
My logic is undeniable.

Posted by: cortana 5
Posted by: OrderedComa
Interesting, that was a cool read and intriguing take on it all :D I can't whether there are ladies in this thread, but there is at least one, as I'm a lady :P So maybe it's just lady and gentlemen XD

OT:
I'm not entirely sure what you're advocating for John, but I can tell that you think he is exceptional and definitely outstanding amongst the Spartans.
Yaaay! I'm not the only girl in this thread!

Anyways, OT, etc.
I think that John not being physically the best Spartan ever helps his case, if anything.


That voice, y'all.

  • 05.17.2011 1:35 PM PDT

Best all rounder.

  • 05.17.2011 2:28 PM PDT
  • gamertag: MGTrey
  • user homepage:

The Seventh Column demands it.

Tumblr|Twitter

Chief's dossier > everyone else's dossier.

Defeating the Flood > black ink.

Destroying one Halo single handedly > black ink.

Blocking a missile with his hands > black ink.

  • 05.17.2011 4:28 PM PDT