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  • Subject: Why does no one remember that John isn't an exceptional Spartan?
Subject: Why does no one remember that John isn't an exceptional Spartan?

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

The only pair that I know Chief has killed in the books was the one in Installation 04 and one of the Hunters got killed by a Grunt by mistake, if you mean in game, then Six has done it too, and they are bigger than in Halo: CE - 3

  • 05.19.2011 10:11 PM PDT


Posted by: ThePredkiller2
Posted by: THE C TRAYNE

the chief has had plenty of serious fights against tough opponents and come out on top fighting by himself... including taking out numerous pairs of hunters too


...with Cortana.


Having Cortana means pretty much nothing, she can't fight, all she can do is provide intel or objectives. And Chief fought Hunters and other enemies just as well without her as he did with her.

  • 05.20.2011 11:22 AM PDT
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact


Posted by: RKOSNAKE
The only pair that I know Chief has killed in the books was the one in Installation 04 and one of the Hunters got killed by a Grunt by mistake, if you mean in game, then Six has done it too, and they are bigger than in Halo: CE - 3


Well if we ingore the trilogy games and just look at the flood:

Chief killed the following hunters alone:
-The ones who ambushed the Chief at the silent cartographer(second time with the Marines)
-The first time,however a grunt killed one of them
-The third time when chief got wounded but still had won
-At the control room with stealth at the foot of the pyramid
-Two betrayals at the end
-Inside the autumn,at least one time

The argument that cortana did everything is a poor excuse in that logic none of the spartans are great cause all of them fight with intel and a leader that commands them around.

  • 05.20.2011 11:27 AM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

Cortana does a lot for the Chief, she makes his reaction time faster, thus, making him more efficient in battle. Remember in the Fall of Reach when Blue team first encounter the Hunters, they almost get killed and they were what, 4 Spartans?

  • 05.20.2011 11:31 AM PDT


Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Posted by: nightspark
Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Posted by: Fly Boy 2113
Good point. Just look at Halo3 compared to Reach. John can jump, Noble six can sprint, use a knife, use a jetpack, lock his armor, and use a hologram.

Don't forget, he can also evade and use unlimited bubble shields.

And Six still got his beans smashed.

By seven high ranking Elites, I think that is better than Chief's punny fight against a Minor in Gamma station or against the Ship master of the Ascendant Justice.


I wouldn't put much stock in Chief fight with the Minor on Gamma Station, because as I've said many, many, many times before, that was supposed to be the first time he had ever encountered an Elite and he didn't know how exactly to fight with one. That has since been retconned and it and should have been slightly rewritten other than just changing things having to do with it being the first time Elites were fought.

And again, the fight with the Elite on the Ascendant Justice is a completely different scenario. Chief has been fighting almost totally all by himself and almost completely non stop for several days, he was wounded with little to no treatment, no real rest, fought through the Flood, the Elite was higher ranking one and was wielding a sword at close quarters, and Chief had others with him he had to be careful of (IE couldn't shoot at the Elite because he was afraid of hitting someone else). IIRC Halsey even states that it's a wonder he was still standing when they meet up again.

Six on the other hand, she had been fighting for quite a while, but there were breaks of several days between a lot of the fights she took part in, was at a UNSC held world as opposed to the middle of nowhere and would have gotten any wounds received treated properly, Six had at least one other Spartan with her almost every mission she took part in on Reach, her final fight with the Elites was out in the open and most of the Elites she killed she had gunned down, and she didn't have anyone else to watch out for besides enemies during her final fight. Now I'm not trying to minimize Six's accomplishment in any way, I'm merely pointing out that the scenario leading up to and for her final fight and the scenario leading up to and for Chief's fight for the Ascendant Justice are completely different.

  • 05.20.2011 11:48 AM PDT


Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Cortana does a lot for the Chief, she makes his reaction time faster, thus, making him more efficient in battle. Remember in the Fall of Reach when Blue team first encounter the Hunters, they almost get killed and they were what, 4 Spartans?


Let me point out that, like the encounter with Elite on Gamma Station, this was supposed to be the first time anyone had ever encountered Hunters, the Spartans didn't know how to fight them properly. And if memory serves me well, the room they fought in was rather small for four Spartans and two Hunters to be able to fight to the best of their ability in.

  • 05.20.2011 11:53 AM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Posted by: nightspark
Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Posted by: Fly Boy 2113
Good point. Just look at Halo3 compared to Reach. John can jump, Noble six can sprint, use a knife, use a jetpack, lock his armor, and use a hologram.

Don't forget, he can also evade and use unlimited bubble shields.

And Six still got his beans smashed.

By seven high ranking Elites, I think that is better than Chief's punny fight against a Minor in Gamma station or against the Ship master of the Ascendant Justice.


I wouldn't put much stock in Chief fight with the Minor on Gamma Station, because as I've said many, many, many times before, that was supposed to be the first time he had ever encountered an Elite and he didn't know how exactly to fight with one. That has since been retconned and it and should have been slightly rewritten other than just changing things having to do with it being the first time Elites were fought.

And again, the fight with the Elite on the Ascendant Justice is a completely different scenario. Chief has been fighting almost totally all by himself and almost completely non stop for several days, he was wounded with little to no treatment, no real rest, fought through the Flood, the Elite was higher ranking one and was wielding a sword at close quarters, and Chief had others with him he had to be careful of (IE couldn't shoot at the Elite because he was afraid of hitting someone else). IIRC Halsey even states that it's a wonder he was still standing when they meet up again.

Six on the other hand, she had been fighting for quite a while, but there were breaks of several days between a lot of the fights she took part in, was at a UNSC held world as opposed to the middle of nowhere and would have gotten any wounds received treated properly, Six had at least one other Spartan with her almost every mission she took part in on Reach, her final fight with the Elites was out in the open and most of the Elites she killed she had gunned down, and she didn't have anyone else to watch out for besides enemies during her final fight. Now I'm not trying to minimize Six's accomplishment in any way, I'm merely pointing out that the scenario leading up to and for her final fight and the scenario leading up to and for Chief's fight for the Ascendant Justice are completely different.


I understand you, it just pisses me off that people (generally John fanboys) try to belittle Six just because he/she was in just one game by comparing John's "awesome feats" that no one can ever match because he is the Chief, get what I'm sayin'?

  • 05.20.2011 11:55 AM PDT
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I believe after the events of instalation 00 he graduated to "exceptional" status.

As far as Noble 6-vs-117 goes I think the covenant nicknaming one "The Demon" speaks louder than any fanboy bullshyt.

[Edited on 05.20.2011 12:28 PM PDT]

  • 05.20.2011 12:26 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

Posted by: AKA 357
I believe after the events of instalation 00 he graduated to "exceptional" status.

As far as Noble 6-vs-117 goes I think the covenant nicknaming one "The Demon" speaks louder than any fanboy bullshyt.


The Covenant called every Spartan "Demons"

  • 05.20.2011 12:41 PM PDT


Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Posted by: AKA 357
I believe after the events of instalation 00 he graduated to "exceptional" status.

As far as Noble 6-vs-117 goes I think the covenant nicknaming one "The Demon" speaks louder than any fanboy bullshyt.


The Covenant called every Spartan "Demons"


Chief was called "The Demon" because they thought he was the last Spartan.

It was nothing beyond that.

  • 05.20.2011 1:09 PM PDT

They let me pick.Did I ever tell you that?Choose whichever Spartan I wanted.You know me.I did my research.Watched as you became the soldier we needed you to be.Like the others, you were strong and swift and brave.A natural leader.But you had something they didn't.Something no one saw,but me.Can you guess...? Luck.

Cortana.

  • 05.20.2011 1:11 PM PDT


Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Posted by: OrderedComa

I wouldn't put much stock in Chief fight with the Minor on Gamma Station, because as I've said many, many, many times before, that was supposed to be the first time he had ever encountered an Elite and he didn't know how exactly to fight with one. That has since been retconned and it and should have been slightly rewritten other than just changing things having to do with it being the first time Elites were fought.

And again, the fight with the Elite on the Ascendant Justice is a completely different scenario. Chief has been fighting almost totally all by himself and almost completely non stop for several days, he was wounded with little to no treatment, no real rest, fought through the Flood, the Elite was higher ranking one and was wielding a sword at close quarters, and Chief had others with him he had to be careful of (IE couldn't shoot at the Elite because he was afraid of hitting someone else). IIRC Halsey even states that it's a wonder he was still standing when they meet up again.

Six on the other hand, she had been fighting for quite a while, but there were breaks of several days between a lot of the fights she took part in, was at a UNSC held world as opposed to the middle of nowhere and would have gotten any wounds received treated properly, Six had at least one other Spartan with her almost every mission she took part in on Reach, her final fight with the Elites was out in the open and most of the Elites she killed she had gunned down, and she didn't have anyone else to watch out for besides enemies during her final fight. Now I'm not trying to minimize Six's accomplishment in any way, I'm merely pointing out that the scenario leading up to and for her final fight and the scenario leading up to and for Chief's fight for the Ascendant Justice are completely different.


I understand you, it just pisses me off that people (generally John fanboys) try to belittle Six just because he/she was in just one game by comparing John's "awesome feats" that no one can ever match because he is the Chief, get what I'm sayin'?


I can completely understand your position, I think people belittling Six is just stupid, I personally see her as almost exactly equal to John, and I'm beyond a shadow of a doubt certain she could have done everything he did if she hadn't died on Reach.

I know you (and probably most if not all the other people in here saying he's not the best) don't hate John, but sometimes it feels like all the people pointing out he's not the best take it a bit too far and make it sound like he's absolutely nothing :/ Oh well, I know what you all really mean, so it's no biggy.

  • 05.20.2011 1:14 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Posted by: AKA 357
I believe after the events of instalation 00 he graduated to "exceptional" status.

As far as Noble 6-vs-117 goes I think the covenant nicknaming one "The Demon" speaks louder than any fanboy bullshyt.


The Covenant called every Spartan "Demons"


Chief was called "The Demon" because they thought he was the last Spartan.

It was nothing beyond that.


The central holographic viewer faded and a Brute materialized standing before them with
blue-gray skin, a gorilla head, and red feral eyes. He spoke in a series of grunts and hisses.
A translation popped on Fred's datapad: "Brothers, the schism is here. We are free at last to crush the lesser races. We will no longer be led by"
The Brute looked about the bridge, blinked, and then glared at Fred. It hissed and
vanished.
On the translation pad a single word had appeared: "Demons."


Ghosts Of Onyx, page 146.

Xytan's image flickered off and an elderly Sangheili appeared in the center of the
stadium. Parala had long ago been counsel to the Prophet of Regret. Bent with age, a fierce
intellect nonetheless shone in his milky eyes.
"We have most disturbing intelligence," Parala said with distaste. "The humans have
wreaked havoc with their demons, destroying the first-discovered sacred ring construct. They
were at the second ring as well, and have apparently discovered yet another world of
Forerunner design. They must not be underestimated."


Ghosts Of Onyx, page 160.

The Fleet Master Elite snarled at Kurt, and the translation filtered through his helmet's
speaker: "One last fight, demon. You will die and we shall reopen the silver path."
"Die?" Kurt laughed. "Didn't you know?" he told the Elite. "... Spartans never die."
Kurt turned his gauntlet face-up and pressed the detonator.


Ghosts Of Onyx, page 251.

Not that I am contradicting you Fae, just showing AKA this.

  • 05.20.2011 1:18 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

Posted by: masterlinus99
They let me pick.Did I ever tell you that?Choose whichever Spartan I wanted.You know me.I did my research.Watched as you became the soldier we needed you to be.Like the others, you were strong and swift and brave.A natural leader.But you had something they didn't.Something no one saw,but me.Can you guess...? Luck.

Cortana.


Could people stop using that quote? It has been used like 20 times in this thread already!

  • 05.20.2011 1:20 PM PDT

If you're passionate about the thing you're talking about, I'll always lend an ear.

Kurt was such a bad-ass.

That's how you go out with a bang.

Not some -blam!- "i've given up but i'm super certain I saved Reach" crap.

[Edited on 05.20.2011 1:22 PM PDT]

  • 05.20.2011 1:22 PM PDT


Posted by: ninjakenzen
Kurt was such a bad-ass.

That's how you go out with a bang.

Not some -blam!- "i've given up but i'm super certain I saved Reach" crap.


What makes you think Six just gave up? She went down there to take part in the battle, but she arrived a little late. Her whole death doesn't strike me as "I give up" it looked to me more like "Ok, it looks like I'm totally screwed now, but I'm taking as many of you with me as I can". Much like Kurt's death...only less explosive :P haha.

  • 05.20.2011 2:49 PM PDT

Hanger one I just shredded with the SMGs until ammo was out and I just threw 'nades like a boss while BRing.

My experience playing Cairo Station on Legendary

I'm sorry but I would rather a mediocre Spartan who's a better leader than a fast Spartan who can't self manage. In comparison, what makes John the best, is that he survived. Think about it, Who's alive, and who isn't?

  • 05.20.2011 2:55 PM PDT

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So stop reading and join already or Get Simmonsized!

John-117 is like any other Spartan-II only he demonstrates exceptional Leadership and Luck, and a personal smart AI. Not to mention he is Halsey's favorite, somewhat but true.

But he's just one of many exceptional Spartan. Just like his leadership skill, others bring certain abilities to the table as well. You can't say he's the best spartan. He's just the spartan who's story we know all to well. I bet if they had other spartans in the Halo trilogy that made appearances then we would all think differently about John-117 being the "only exceptional Spartan".

  • 05.20.2011 4:25 PM PDT
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Luck.

There were MANY lucky moments John had. I think that's what set him apart.

  • 05.20.2011 4:26 PM PDT


Posted by: marhorn
[quote] The Covenant never feared any other Spartan enough to call them Demon!



*Correction*: The Covenant never SAW another Spartan enough to call them demon. Those who did usually died. Noble 6 was far to under the radar to achieve any sort of reputation from either side.

  • 05.20.2011 4:37 PM PDT


Posted by: Sector Z 157
I'm sorry but I would rather a mediocre Spartan who's a better leader than a fast Spartan who can't self manage. In comparison, what makes John the best, is that he survived. Think about it, Who's alive, and who isn't?


So, using that logic, I come to this conclusion.

That squad has a fairly good record. And that guy always comes back from a battle unscathed. Regardless of the fact he was a coward and bolted at the first sign of trouble, he survived EVERY encounter. Therefore, using your logic, he's the best.

  • 05.20.2011 5:30 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

Posted by: amazingostriche

Posted by: marhorn
[quote] The Covenant never feared any other Spartan enough to call them Demon!



*Correction*: The Covenant never SAW another Spartan enough to call them demon. Those who did usually died. Noble 6 was far to under the radar to achieve any sort of reputation from either side.


Wrong.

The central holographic viewer faded and a Brute materialized standing before them with
blue-gray skin, a gorilla head, and red feral eyes. He spoke in a series of grunts and hisses.
A translation popped on Fred's datapad: "Brothers, the schism is here. We are free at last to crush the lesser races. We will no longer be led by"
The Brute looked about the bridge, blinked, and then glared at Fred. It hissed and
vanished.
On the translation pad a single word had appeared: "Demons."

Ghosts Of Onyx, page 146.

Xytan's image flickered off and an elderly Sangheili appeared in the center of the
stadium. Parala had long ago been counsel to the Prophet of Regret. Bent with age, a fierce
intellect nonetheless shone in his milky eyes.
"We have most disturbing intelligence," Parala said with distaste. "The humans have
wreaked havoc with their demons, destroying the first-discovered sacred ring construct. They
were at the second ring as well, and have apparently discovered yet another world of
Forerunner design. They must not be underestimated."

Ghosts Of Onyx, page 160.

The Fleet Master Elite snarled at Kurt, and the translation filtered through his helmet's speaker: "One last fight, demon. You will die and we shall reopen the silver path."
"Die?" Kurt laughed. "Didn't you know?" he told the Elite. "... Spartans never die."
Kurt turned his gauntlet face-up and pressed the detonator.

Ghosts Of Onyx, page 251.

  • 05.20.2011 5:46 PM PDT


Posted by: amazingostriche

Posted by: marhorn
[quote] The Covenant never feared any other Spartan enough to call them Demon!



*Correction*: The Covenant never SAW another Spartan enough to call them demon. Those who did usually died. Noble 6 was far to under the radar to achieve any sort of reputation from either side.


No, all Spartans were called Demons by the Covenant, not just Master Chief. If you're a Spartan, to the Covenant you're a Demon.

  • 05.20.2011 6:22 PM PDT

"The object of war is not die for your counrty but to make the other bastard die for his."

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: Sector Z 157
I'm sorry but I would rather a mediocre Spartan who's a better leader than a fast Spartan who can't self manage. In comparison, what makes John the best, is that he survived. Think about it, Who's alive, and who isn't?


So, using that logic, I come to this conclusion.

That squad has a fairly good record. And that guy always comes back from a battle unscathed. Regardless of the fact he was a coward and bolted at the first sign of trouble, he survived EVERY encounter. Therefore, using your logic, he's the best.


God you have pissed me off throughout this thread. Use your head; you give other people -blam!- for coming in here and not thinking and just spouting fanboyism, when you can't even use your own head to interpret a post...

What sector is saying is that throughout the series Spartans have done incredible things and that after all of this John remains alive, whereas Six died. Obviously, dying is not a direct measure of 'greatness', but it does factor into your record. If you do great things and die; and then someone else does great things...and then continues to do great things because they are still alive; they -could- have a greater impact no?

Again; the point is that throughout all of this John has managed to stay alive AND complete his mission. That in and of itself, makes me think that someone is 'better' at there job. There is a difference between bad-ass and greatness. I think Six is pretty bad-ass for what he did, but is he better than John? No, because for many different reasons John was on the POA and Six was on the ground rather than the other way around.

I mean I giver Six his credit for what he did, but I also dis-count the final cut-scene. But is he better than John? Again, no...feel free to disagree here, but someone who can lead people extremely effectively, can perform to a level greater than many spartans and thus allows him to think about many different options rather than rely on his specialty (I use rely loosely; obviously all the spartans are able to perform the needed tasks, but John's non-specialty allows him to consider each option as equally important.); has remained alive (see no mention of cowards here we're in a thread about spartans, remember?); is considered by Halsey to be the best spartan; was chosen by Cortana because he was the in her opinion 'lucky'; DID happen to save the galaxy; need we go on?

Secondly, your grasp of logic is questionable at best if that's what you could grasp out of that. Sector described a situation where he would rather be a Spartan that works with his peers better and may not excel in a particular category; rather than being a spartan who was ridiculously fast, but couldn't necessarily think far enough ahead to consider a different option because they were too focused on their specialty. (another reason jack of all trades tend to succeed, even if they may not be the best at any one thing)




So let's say it again;
Natural Leader; Remains alive to perform his job; Non-specialty, but excels in every category; The bravest; the luckiest (although as discussed I think this is due to other factors); Considered by Halsey to be the best; Chosen by Cortana; DID happen to save the galaxy (maybe others could maybe they couldn't point is...he did)

Is John some kind of god? No
Is John better than Six? Yes
Is John more bad-ass than Six? Meh, I'd give this one to Six for the ending cut-scene even if I dis-count it canon wise
Is Six more bad-ass than Johnson? Not a chance ;)

  • 05.20.2011 7:55 PM PDT

You will die, My point was this.

"Saying John is the best simply for surviving, and not including anything else is massively stupid."

Edit: If I see somebody going "John is best for surviving." I respond with that coward situation.

Now, if they include "John is best for surviving and fighting through everything thrown at him." I'll respect that. Even though it's a poor line seeing as we have no proof another Spartan couldn't survive the same things given same support/gear.

[Edited on 05.20.2011 8:08 PM PDT]

  • 05.20.2011 8:01 PM PDT