Bungie Universe
This topic has moved here: Subject: Why does no one remember that John isn't an exceptional Spartan?
  • Subject: Why does no one remember that John isn't an exceptional Spartan?
Subject: Why does no one remember that John isn't an exceptional Spartan?
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact


Posted by: forthnback
Yes, he was the only Spartan in place when the Autumn jumped. As such, he was the Spartan on hand to tackle the Halo rings. In Halo 2-3, Blue Team was sent away. Once again, he was the only Spartan on hand to spearhead the Delta Halo campaign, along with the Ark landing.

John saved the galaxy, and inspired Humanity as it's hero. Yes.

He's also, according to the novels, entirely mediocre as a Spartan. He is not the strongest, fastest, best marksmen, smartest, most agile, etc. He is average, in literally every regard. He is exceptional in only one regard, and that was leadership. He was one of four Spartan selected to be leaders (and even then, Kurt's team frequently outperformed John's team because Kurt was the better commander).

Bungie's stance, not mine, is that John is an average Spartan who excells at only one thing. Leadership. And he isn't even the best at that.

For those familiar with the definition of average, this means John was in the middle of his class as far as terms of abilities went. That means that 50% of the Spartans, roughly, would have performed as good as he did in Halo 1-3, if not better.

I really laugh at everyone who claims John is somehow a better warrior than Noble Six. Leader, absolutely. But N6 was declared to be one of two Spartans to have the hyper-lethal rating....and god knows it isn't going to be 'everyman' John.


-Average is the wrong word for Spartans.Every Spartan is good at everything,it's just that some have their own speciality.Having one speciality also leads to your fall,Linda prefers long range,barely fights at close range,how would she do on close range,and as we saw in FOR she was "killed" in close quarter battle.

-When did Bungie ever said that?According to them the Chief is better then Noble,or at least they said SII's were better in many of their Reach interviews.

-So because 117 hasn't a speciality like sniper or heavy weapons doesn't means he's average?Because Linda is the best sniper doesn't means she is one of the best spartans,see you look at one catergorie/spartan,but you should look at all categories.And it's already proven in another thread that 117 is the best.

-Define "Hyper lethal" for me.

  • 05.04.2011 5:18 AM PDT

You know I've never really bought the whole Kurt is the best leader of them all. I mean, what he did on Onyx IMO is what any quick thinking spartan (all of them) could do. Yeah he knew of the trap at the insurgent camp but did he tell them? I'm pretty sure a stockpile of anti-vehicle/armor weapons is a sign they're expecting them if not just a notice that should of been given. He is a good trainer however I've never seen him lead as well as they book said he could.

  • 05.04.2011 6:51 AM PDT

Chief had something no other SPARTAN had - Luck, as stated by Cortana

Noble 6 is a SPARTAN III. They are generally smaller, weaker and slower than SPARTAN II's. This is why John could beat Noble 6 in a fight ( Not that he would ). Chief may not have been the strongest, fastest, smartest or most accurate SPARTAN but hell, any SPARTAN II could kick a SPARTAN III's ass

  • 05.04.2011 7:07 AM PDT


Posted by: manwith
What's this Chief is ''jack of all trades'' thing?

Isn't every Spartan ''jack of all trades''?


My point exactly.


Posted by: CM Assasin 911
Chief had something no other SPARTAN had - Luck, as stated by Cortana

Noble 6 is a SPARTAN III. They are generally smaller, weaker and slower than SPARTAN II's. This is why John could beat Noble 6 in a fight ( Not that he would ). Chief may not have been the strongest, fastest, smartest or most accurate SPARTAN but hell, any SPARTAN II could kick a SPARTAN III's ass


Maybe true, however S3's such as Noble Team had the S2 genetic requirements, making them just as strong, fast, and big as an average S2.

To Revan: Chief had Cortana for a chunk of those areas. and again, I'd agree that a single terrorist does not compare to a single elite. HOWEVER, Six has taken out entire terrorist organizations, and militia camps, ALONE. That's basically at least the size of the base Chief was nearly captured in, or the one he went into on his mission pre-MJOLNIR to capture a rebel leader. Acting as if that's nothing is stupid.

  • 05.04.2011 7:16 AM PDT

Actually your wrong, John has luck ALWAYS on his side. This can easily be interpreted as an uncanny ability to seek out and exploit oppurtunities.

Halsey herself states that while he can be out-performed by some of his peers, he is the "best" SPARTAN. God knows there is more to being a SPARTAN than a "specialisation" on the battlefield.

If John is ONLY 90% efficiant in all of his skill sets, he can still out-perform everyone else in 9/10 situation, except for that one skill set than any one of his peers is 100% proficient at.

At least that's how I see it.

  • 05.04.2011 7:41 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Ad eundum quo nemo ante iit

Posted by: manwith
What's this Chief is ''jack of all trades'' thing?

Isn't every Spartan ''jack of all trades''?


Yes, but some are a better "Jack" than others.

The chief is an average Spartan-II, better than some, but less so than others. His bravery and luck are the only things that set him apart from the others.

  • 05.04.2011 9:55 AM PDT


Posted by: marhorn
It is said througout the Halo lore that Master chief is the best.


Actually, no. It does not state that. It states that he is very average.

  • 05.04.2011 10:02 AM PDT


Posted by: Mutoid Log
He could be the second best at everything.


Fred was, actually, the second best at everything. Literally everything. John thought he could have come in first for everything, but just hated the attention.

  • 05.04.2011 10:04 AM PDT

HALO COMBATE EVOLVED

Halo 1-3 amazing story everyone loves the chief dont down him


Halo Reach one game one story.. we dont love noble 6 we love the chief...and besides noble 6 isnt anyone its us...our armour

  • 05.04.2011 10:07 AM PDT

Posted by: hotshot revan II

-When did Bungie ever said that? According to them the Chief is better then Noble,or at least they said SII's were better in many of their Reach interviews.


Posted by: CM Assasin 911
Noble 6 is a SPARTAN III. They are generally smaller, weaker and slower than SPARTAN II's.


Incorrect, while being correct. The S2's are better in almost all regards to the majority of the S3's, since they have a less restrictive gene selection. However. Kurt and Mendez state that they get some who Halsey would have chosen. These S3 (who end up identical to S2) are given Mjolnir after being extracted, armed as Spartans and out fighting as Spartans.

All of Noble Team, Rosenda, Thom, and any other S3 like that is identical to an S2 in terms of ability.

S3's also aren't smaller, they simply have no need of a thyroid implant. John is only 1 inch taller than Carter and Emile. Jorge is massive the same way Sam was massive. Nothing to do with S2/S3

  • 05.04.2011 10:12 AM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

Posted by: marhorn
It is said througout the Halo lore that Master chief is the best. When they first selected him, they tossed a coin in the air and he grabbed it right outta the air! When he did an assault course he punched a falcon missile out of the sky!

Noble 6 fell down to Reach with a re-entry pack.....and almost died....Master Chief fell back to Earth with nothing....and was ready to rock and roll!

Luck was often the saving grace of John.....although some of us call that fate!


The ignorance of this post, it buuuuuurns!

  • 05.04.2011 10:17 AM PDT

Posted by: Skibur
inb4 everyone.

Posted by: forthnback
He's also, according to the novels, entirely mediocre as a Spartan. He is not the strongest, fastest, best marksmen, smartest, most agile, etc.

Well no duh. Everybody (except you) knows that MC is the most badass of the the spartans because he is the luckiest spartan (and possibly luckiest person) ever. He has so much luck that he essentially can't fail.

  • 05.04.2011 11:39 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Can you blame them? The majority of the Halo fanbase haven't read the books, and John was the only Spartan they've seen in action. If Bungie had made Halo: Reach The Fall of Reach: The Game, they would have seen that all John has is luck and Cortana.

  • 05.04.2011 11:49 AM PDT


Posted by: forthnback

Posted by: Mutoid Log
He could be the second best at everything.


Fred was, actually, the second best at everything. Literally everything. John thought he could have come in first for everything, but just hated the attention.


Actually that's not what it said at all, it said that Fred always took second in their training exercises. It is never stated he's the second best at everything, the only direct mention of Fred being second best in any category is the statement that he's the second best sniper on Blue Team, that doesn't mean he's the second best sniper amongst the Spartans however though.

  • 05.04.2011 12:15 PM PDT

Adepto In Meus Campester
Posted by: ParagonRenegade
You were totally and absolutely correct in every way, I don't know why we were arguing, you're so amazing I should never have doubted you.

Master Chief was not exceptional, but he did exceptional things.

  • 05.04.2011 1:02 PM PDT

Posted by:ScubaToaster
Posted by: HipiO7
This man, this man right here put it so eloquently that I actually cancelled my own 2000+ word long post.
/slow clap for respect


:)
The person who said participating is important, not winning, obviously never won anything.

It is stated though that John IS the bravest of all Spartan's, add that to an unbelivable ammount of luck and you have a pretty dammned good spartan.

  • 05.04.2011 2:29 PM PDT

I find it hard to believe that anyone can actually claim that Chief is not exceptional while keeping a straight face. All it takes is one look at what he has done all throughout the books or the trilogy to be convinced that he is exceptional. Now whether he is the best or the most exceptional is something that can be debated, but I think stating that Chief is not exceptional at all is a grave mistake and huge error on the part of anyone making that claim.

  • 05.04.2011 2:38 PM PDT


Posted by: OrderedComa
I find it hard to believe that anyone can actually claim that Chief is not exceptional while keeping a straight face. All it takes is one look at what he has done all throughout the books or the trilogy to be convinced that he is exceptional. Now whether he is the best or the most exceptional is something that can be debated, but I think stating that Chief is not exceptional at all is a grave mistake and huge error on the part of anyone making that claim.


I'll agree with that coma. Spartans, by general, are all exceptional. "average" to a Spartan is damn good for everybody else.

And, he was exceptional is a specific way, leadership. I'll say he and Kurt were the best leaders in the Spartans. Chief being best at other stuff? I personally don't think so.

  • 05.04.2011 2:43 PM PDT


Posted by: forthnback

Posted by: Mutoid Log
He could be the second best at everything.


Fred was, actually, the second best at everything. Literally everything. John thought he could have come in first for everything, but just hated the attention.


"John thought he could have come in first for everything, but just hated the attention"

you sir have just bull-blamed yourself , if john wanted to be the best , he could have been the best , bout wiht this statment , your are now saying that he never preformed at his 100% , and knowing this we cant know if in the trilogy he preformd at 100% , or just did 10%

Sir , MC is the best spartan that we know untill now , next gen halo will preve otherwise??? , we still dont know , but until now he is the beast

  • 05.04.2011 3:03 PM PDT


Posted by: RagedBigote

Posted by: forthnback

Posted by: Mutoid Log
He could be the second best at everything.


Fred was, actually, the second best at everything. Literally everything. John thought he could have come in first for everything, but just hated the attention.


"John thought he could have come in first for everything, but just hated the attention"

you sir have just bull-blamed yourself , if john wanted to be the best , he could have been the best , bout wiht this statment , your are now saying that he never preformed at his 100% , and knowing this we cant know if in the trilogy he preformd at 100% , or just did 10%

Sir , MC is the best spartan that we know untill now , next gen halo will preve otherwise??? , we still dont know , but until now he is the beast



Um, you took the statement the complete wrong way.

John thought he(being Fred) could come in first at the competitions, however he hated the attention.

  • 05.04.2011 3:07 PM PDT

^^ ya.

You misread me, is all.

  • 05.04.2011 3:13 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: RagedBigote

Posted by: forthnback

Posted by: Mutoid Log
He could be the second best at everything.


Fred was, actually, the second best at everything. Literally everything. John thought he could have come in first for everything, but just hated the attention.


"John thought he could have come in first for everything, but just hated the attention"

you sir have just bull-blamed yourself , if john wanted to be the best , he could have been the best , bout wiht this statment , your are now saying that he never preformed at his 100% , and knowing this we cant know if in the trilogy he preformd at 100% , or just did 10%

Sir , MC is the best spartan that we know untill now , next gen halo will preve otherwise??? , we still dont know , but until now he is the beast


Is John the best at predicting when a trap or ambush is up ahead? Nope.

Is he the best sniper? Nope.

Is he the fastest runner? Nope.

Is he the smartest? Nope.

Is he the strongest? Nope.

Is he the biggest? Nope.

How can he be the best if he really doesn't excel in any other category against the other Spartans?

  • 05.04.2011 3:15 PM PDT

"The object of war is not die for your counrty but to make the other bastard die for his."

We are arguing over many different things here...
First I just want to say this...this is like arguing which Navy SEAL I'd want in a fight with me...I'd take any of them cause they can kick ass...

The largest thing that I see showing that N6 was a 'badass' and better than MC was the ending cut scene of Reach. Which by definition has to be 'badass' cause it's the ending. Now I'm not going to discount the ending but if you ask me the ending is purely a cinematic (or Hollywood) feel-good scene.

But let's say that it's true...my first point...all of the elites decided to attack with melee weapons, again a choice they made, but had they shot at him he would have been put down easily...
Again, it goes back to all of the canon that we have so far (and I'm going to draw purely from the books, considering the games have gameplay issues that make comparisons unfair) MC and other Spartans have fought elites and in general had difficulty (NOT just 117) so to then assume that a Spartan that is weaker with less augmentation and armor could do better seems like a plot element. Furthermore, these elites were the exceptional members of the elites to assume that they couldn't fight in hand to hand combat is dumb. This again directs me to think 'plot element' at the end in order to create a good ending.
I guess what I am saying is that by the books...Spartans have issues fighting elites in hand to hand combat, to believe that a weaker less augmented Spartan could fair better seems naive.
So if you base your whole argument on N6 and the ending cut scene; I play it up to having to create an 'awesome' ending.

For the rest of the argument I will post my response in other threads about this topic...



Good debate...but I see one 'side' continuing to perpetuate this idea that Noble 6 is so badass because he made militia's and terrorist organizations disappear.
A significant feat by any measure of military action, but something I think everyone is forgetting is that more than likely N6 did this by using some kind of bomb (i.e. nuke) and/or spacing members of the organization. "Again" no small feat but what I am saying is that: did he sit off on mountain and snipe everyone and then reload and be like huh I win I'm a badass?? No he did not.

He might have killed a few from range or hell lets say a lot of people from range, but to believe that he was just taking this groups on militarily by himself and winning is to not understand what makes a Spartan a Spartan. While he may have been at an advantage militarily he would 'not' throw his element of surprise away even if this meant not being in armor, gaining the organizations trust and then spacing the leaders at an opportune time and then running getting his armor back on, and then killing the rest in the fray when he gets back(which again could be very shortly).

Again, hypothetical situation created by me; and I'm not completely sure on the S3's ability to remove their armor and stuff like that I'd have to go give the books a read again. Again, my point remains that MC could just have easily done the same considering that they all had extensive training in tactics. To say that MC would have done better that N6 is not justifiable in any way; and after MC spent so much time on Halo I would say he would have done worse than N6 in this mission BUT.

The reason he would do worse is because of the situation he had been fighting in for a long time on Halo. That is, he got to Halo and the covenant already knew he was there, his grand element of surprise was gone; in individual battle obviously MC still had surprise and his tactics played a significant role, but the point remains that he was being hunted (as all humans were) on Halo. The difference in these engagements is one is a full on military engagement and battle whereas N6's fights while no less impressive in my mind are more akin to a sniper's job. That is the enemy didn't necessarily know until too late that he was there, or what he precisely was.

Again, personal choice if you believe that N6 ran into these organizations gun's blazing and killed everything and walked out and was like damn...I slept at a Holiday Inn last night, well then ya I guess I can see why you believe he's more badass.

I choose to believe MC is more badass because after everything he was put into a situation where the covenant were essentially hunting him and he remained victorious (could have happened to N6 in one of his many situations if you want it to, but we have no proof, and against the terrorists that is)

As far as enhancements in the books go; SII's were better suited for and received better and stronger enhancements than the SIII's to choose to believe anything else is naive. Just accept the fact that they were.. And as far as team based combat goes...MC wins hands down, but this has everything to do with the way he was taught. SII's were taught in ways similar to our SEALs are trained and this tight-knit group will always typically be better in combat depending on what they are engaging.

It's a common problem we face in the current military; the most prevalent being the many different special forces and the constant reminder that you can't 'create' special forces they are there when you train them. In other words stop trying to mass produce them...it doesn't work (U.S. military is fighting this thought right now and constantly)

In final, those who like N6 when did you start playing Halo? I'm wondering if relatively new people to the series like N6 better because they can associate with him better because his back story is less filled out. That was the original reason that MC was grasped by so many people...
And lastly, remember that the SIII's were trained to go on suicide missions and if they were successful then the impact is huge. In other words; SIII's = Battle Changer SII's= Force Multiplier (they are meant to stay alive, their role is as defined more difficult than SIII's but that's not to say that SIII's didn't fill in some of these roles also just that they weren't 'designed' to.)





Forgot about the Spartan debate...
John is not the best Spartan at anything except for being a good leader and being very lucky.
I accept that, but when has being the BEST at ONE thing defined your ability at everything else? I guess what I am saying is that John was 'average' at everything BUT that in and of itself allows him to consider all of his options in a situation. By nature if you are good at something you try to find the best way to use that particular trait to your advantage which inhibits your ability to look at other options.

That's what makes a good Spartan (and leader) to look at all of your options be able to decide the best avenue based on the current conditions. Following this everyone is always like...meh Cortana did everything. Cortana CHOSE MC because she felt that he was lucky. Granted some of his success is due to luck, but mainly John was clear headed and made decisions for the best of the group and could scale this down and make decisions that were the best for him.
And that is what we call bravery...ignoring the best choice for yourself and doing what was best for your team/humanity, which John did countless times without thought to himself, but then after that he was STILL able to get himself out alive. And that is why I think Cortana considered him lucky. Not because he thought about himself and was good at it; but thought about others and then when it came to getting himself out he could still do it.

TL:DR
MC and N6 are badass...MC is more badasser

[Edited on 05.04.2011 3:29 PM PDT]

  • 05.04.2011 3:20 PM PDT


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: RagedBigote

Posted by: forthnback

Posted by: Mutoid Log
He could be the second best at everything.


Fred was, actually, the second best at everything. Literally everything. John thought he could have come in first for everything, but just hated the attention.


"John thought he could have come in first for everything, but just hated the attention"

you sir have just bull-blamed yourself , if john wanted to be the best , he could have been the best , bout wiht this statment , your are now saying that he never preformed at his 100% , and knowing this we cant know if in the trilogy he preformd at 100% , or just did 10%

Sir , MC is the best spartan that we know untill now , next gen halo will preve otherwise??? , we still dont know , but until now he is the beast


Is John the best at predicting when a trap or ambush is up ahead? Nope.

Is he the best sniper? Nope.

Is he the fastest runner? Nope.

Is he the smartest? Nope.

Is he the strongest? Nope.

Is he the biggest? Nope.

How can he be the best if he really doesn't excel in any other category against the other Spartans?

He may not be the best at a certain field but he is the best overall. kind of like Jason Bourne - not as good of a sniper as the one treadstone dude but he can still take him down.

  • 05.04.2011 3:21 PM PDT

"You were weak... and gods must be strong."

I think you're all reading wayy too much into the way their descriptions are written.
"Fred could've been best at everything and always came in second to avoid attention."

That doesn't literally mean he's the second best/potential best at EVERYTHING. It just means he's one of the better jack-of-all trade Spartans with a wide skillset but he lets others take the lead (Well, until GoO that is.)

Another thing- Chief is NEVER stated to be 'average'. He's just emphasized as not being the best sniper, runner, etc. He, like Fred, is probably one of the mostly widely varied Spartans in terms of performance ability- he may not be the best or even in the top 3 in EVERY skillset a Spartan needs, but he's among the best. He's also an amazing leader and his "luck" (which, in my opinion, is a placeholder used by Halsey/Cortana for some indescribable quality he has) that gets him out of the hairiest, largest combat situations most any character in Halo has been introduced to.

In my opinion, N6 and MC come out about equal- John has the advantage of many more Covenant encounters, combat experience, age, and leadership- he excelled in that position. N6 was the better Lone Wolf by nature, and preferred (well, by assumption at least) to work alone. The interesting note is that their roles flipflop on them- N6 is thrown into a team environment and is often given the choice of making the calls or directing other soldiers, and MC is thrown into numerous Lone Wolf environments where he has nobody to rely on but himself or on occassion Cortana.

I think in the end, they both proved they could adapt to the others' role and push on- I believe they're both great Spartans, among the best of all Spartans.

However, in the end, I also believe MC was probably the greatest Spartan merely because of his pronounced devotion. N6 was devoted too, but it was more of an internal thing- he did what was necesarry and shared only his basic thoughts. MC was more widely expressed (though this can be countered with N6 being you, and the options are up to you on what N6 is like).

Either way, Chief's position as the Hero of the Human-Covenant War is rightfully deserved, but N6 should not be downplayed either- he was something else in his own right.

  • 05.04.2011 3:25 PM PDT