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This topic has moved here: Subject: Why does no one remember that John isn't an exceptional Spartan?
  • Subject: Why does no one remember that John isn't an exceptional Spartan?
Subject: Why does no one remember that John isn't an exceptional Spartan?

Hm, I'd say until we know what Six's past deployments are like, we can't say Chief has more Covenant engagements.

Six, at the very least, knows how strong Zealot shields were prior to the WC encounter.

  • 05.04.2011 3:29 PM PDT

"The object of war is not die for your counrty but to make the other bastard die for his."

lols
bam knowledge drop by Gamma46 and me on page 2...

Gamma I tried to describe that 'luck' element that people seem to throw away...it's not really luck its called thinking, and being aware of your surroundings, but is commonly thrown to just being luck...

  • 05.04.2011 3:33 PM PDT

"You were weak... and gods must be strong."


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Hm, I'd say until we know what Six's past deployments are like, we can't say Chief has more Covenant engagements.

Six, at the very least, knows how strong Zealot shields were prior to the WC encounter.


I agree there are too many unknowns, but of what portrayal we've gotten about him- perhaps as much as we'll ever get as they don't want to ruin his character being 'you'- he was largely involved in anti-Terror ops, perhaps being thrown into more Covenant-related Ops as the Inner-Colonies faced annihilation.

While he does know Zealot shield strength, it doesn't necesarrily mean he's fought one. I agree it's HIGHLY probable, but it is by no means guaranteed. I'm sure the UNSC has let the Spartans research/document shield strengths of various Covenant classes encountered. We may not have had the best info, but it's entirely possible that we had recorded some information about shield strength and how much it takes to down one.

Either way, I still believe Chief by far had much more Covenant contact compared to Six, and thus, had an ever so slight advantage in that regard.

  • 05.04.2011 3:36 PM PDT

"You were weak... and gods must be strong."


Posted by: You will Die
lols
bam knowledge drop by Gamma46 and me on page 2...

Gamma I tried to describe that 'luck' element that people seem to throw away...it's not really luck its called thinking, and being aware of your surroundings, but is commonly thrown to just being luck...


I read that comment :) However I was too lazy to dig it back up and quote you on it :P But I do agree that it wasn't just "OMGZ LUCK!" It was some quality, possibly his overwhelming forward thinking, that got him through.

  • 05.04.2011 3:37 PM PDT

"The object of war is not die for your counrty but to make the other bastard die for his."

Precisely
And I'm glad somebody read it... :)
It's getting just a little too long now with all of these additions in all of the N6 threads; I've gotta shorten it down again at some point...but meh

[Edited on 05.04.2011 3:43 PM PDT]

  • 05.04.2011 3:43 PM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: OrderedComa
I find it hard to believe that anyone can actually claim that Chief is not exceptional while keeping a straight face. All it takes is one look at what he has done all throughout the books or the trilogy to be convinced that he is exceptional. Now whether he is the best or the most exceptional is something that can be debated, but I think stating that Chief is not exceptional at all is a grave mistake and huge error on the part of anyone making that claim.


I'll agree with that coma. Spartans, by general, are all exceptional. "average" to a Spartan is damn good for everybody else.

And, he was exceptional is a specific way, leadership. I'll say he and Kurt were the best leaders in the Spartans. Chief being best at other stuff? I personally don't think so.


Well you kinda got what I was getting at :P I more meant that anyone saying that Chief is not one of the most exceptional amongst the Spartan is off base though.

I can agree with that, he and Kurt were definitely the most exceptional amongst the leaders of the Spartans.

  • 05.04.2011 4:26 PM PDT

Sir Arch-Duke Ferdinand II Jr. Sr. III Phd.

Posted by: marhorn
It is said througout the Halo lore that Master chief is the best. When they first selected him, they tossed a coin in the air and he grabbed it right outta the air! When he did an assault course he punched a falcon missile out of the sky!

Noble 6 fell down to Reach with a re-entry pack.....and almost died....Master Chief fell back to Earth with nothing....and was ready to rock and roll!

Luck was often the saving grace of John.....although some of us call that fate!


He didn't almost die. He got right back up and marched for two weeks towards new alexandria.

  • 05.04.2011 4:59 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: Gamma 46

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Hm, I'd say until we know what Six's past deployments are like, we can't say Chief has more Covenant engagements.

Six, at the very least, knows how strong Zealot shields were prior to the WC encounter.


I agree there are too many unknowns, but of what portrayal we've gotten about him- perhaps as much as we'll ever get as they don't want to ruin his character being 'you'- he was largely involved in anti-Terror ops, perhaps being thrown into more Covenant-related Ops as the Inner-Colonies faced annihilation.

While he does know Zealot shield strength, it doesn't necesarrily mean he's fought one. I agree it's HIGHLY probable, but it is by no means guaranteed. I'm sure the UNSC has let the Spartans research/document shield strengths of various Covenant classes encountered. We may not have had the best info, but it's entirely possible that we had recorded some information about shield strength and how much it takes to down one.

Either way, I still believe Chief by far had much more Covenant contact compared to Six, and thus, had an ever so slight advantage in that regard.

Even with Chief having more Covenant contact, it doesn't show. Elites are constantly outclassing Chief when he decides to pick a fight with them. There are about four instances of an Elite giving Chief trouble, one at Gamma Station, one on the Ascendant Justice, one on the wreckage of the Pillar of Autumn and one on a Covenant ship as he was rescuing Dr. Halsey.

I'm sure Six has had trouble, but he took down quite a few Elites before succumbing to death. I doubt Chief would've lasted as long in a similar position.

  • 05.04.2011 5:01 PM PDT

Error 404:
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Posted by: RKOSNAKE

Posted by: IBumpElectro
Thats weird...in Halseys journal that came with the Limited edition of reach she writes that there was one spartan that stood out. one that was best at everything Spartan 117.


Doubt it, Kelly could outrun him any day, Linda could outsnipe him, Kurt could out-lead him(sp?), Fred could beat him in CQC, etc, etc. If I remember well, Fred always came up in second place in everything, John even mentions that he did it because he didn't want the attention, so if there is a "best" Spartan, that'd be Fred.

He died.
There you go.

  • 05.04.2011 5:29 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: Cowgoesmoo
Posted by: RKOSNAKE

Posted by: IBumpElectro
Thats weird...in Halseys journal that came with the Limited edition of reach she writes that there was one spartan that stood out. one that was best at everything Spartan 117.


Doubt it, Kelly could outrun him any day, Linda could outsnipe him, Kurt could out-lead him(sp?), Fred could beat him in CQC, etc, etc. If I remember well, Fred always came up in second place in everything, John even mentions that he did it because he didn't want the attention, so if there is a "best" Spartan, that'd be Fred.

He died.
There you go.

Who Fred? He's alive.

  • 05.04.2011 5:32 PM PDT


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: Gamma 46

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Hm, I'd say until we know what Six's past deployments are like, we can't say Chief has more Covenant engagements.

Six, at the very least, knows how strong Zealot shields were prior to the WC encounter.


I agree there are too many unknowns, but of what portrayal we've gotten about him- perhaps as much as we'll ever get as they don't want to ruin his character being 'you'- he was largely involved in anti-Terror ops, perhaps being thrown into more Covenant-related Ops as the Inner-Colonies faced annihilation.

While he does know Zealot shield strength, it doesn't necesarrily mean he's fought one. I agree it's HIGHLY probable, but it is by no means guaranteed. I'm sure the UNSC has let the Spartans research/document shield strengths of various Covenant classes encountered. We may not have had the best info, but it's entirely possible that we had recorded some information about shield strength and how much it takes to down one.

Either way, I still believe Chief by far had much more Covenant contact compared to Six, and thus, had an ever so slight advantage in that regard.

Even with Chief having more Covenant contact, it doesn't show. Elites are constantly outclassing Chief when he decides to pick a fight with them. There are about four instances of an Elite giving Chief trouble, one at Gamma Station, one on the Ascendant Justice, one on the wreckage of the Pillar of Autumn and one on a Covenant ship as he was rescuing Dr. Halsey.

I'm sure Six has had trouble, but he took down quite a few Elites before succumbing to death. I doubt Chief would've lasted as long in a similar position.
Well technically all the times the elites gave him trouble were in hand to hand combat which as the books have said are essentially equal to a spartan. It's just they are smarter and more tactical. Six while taking them down used the assault rifle and the pistol to take them down. Also you should consider those elites were literally walking in a straight line towards him. Not to say it isn't badass it's just there were certain circumstances.

  • 05.04.2011 6:07 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: Sniffy66

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: Gamma 46

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Hm, I'd say until we know what Six's past deployments are like, we can't say Chief has more Covenant engagements.

Six, at the very least, knows how strong Zealot shields were prior to the WC encounter.


I agree there are too many unknowns, but of what portrayal we've gotten about him- perhaps as much as we'll ever get as they don't want to ruin his character being 'you'- he was largely involved in anti-Terror ops, perhaps being thrown into more Covenant-related Ops as the Inner-Colonies faced annihilation.

While he does know Zealot shield strength, it doesn't necesarrily mean he's fought one. I agree it's HIGHLY probable, but it is by no means guaranteed. I'm sure the UNSC has let the Spartans research/document shield strengths of various Covenant classes encountered. We may not have had the best info, but it's entirely possible that we had recorded some information about shield strength and how much it takes to down one.

Either way, I still believe Chief by far had much more Covenant contact compared to Six, and thus, had an ever so slight advantage in that regard.

Even with Chief having more Covenant contact, it doesn't show. Elites are constantly outclassing Chief when he decides to pick a fight with them. There are about four instances of an Elite giving Chief trouble, one at Gamma Station, one on the Ascendant Justice, one on the wreckage of the Pillar of Autumn and one on a Covenant ship as he was rescuing Dr. Halsey.

I'm sure Six has had trouble, but he took down quite a few Elites before succumbing to death. I doubt Chief would've lasted as long in a similar position.
Well technically all the times the elites gave him trouble were in hand to hand combat which as the books have said are essentially equal to a spartan. It's just they are smarter and more tactical. Six while taking them down used the assault rifle and the pistol to take them down. Also you should consider those elites were literally walking in a straight line towards him. Not to say it isn't badass it's just there were certain circumstances.


I wouldn't class this as hand-to-hand combat.

Fred on the other hand took care of three Elites with two combat knives.

  • 05.04.2011 6:09 PM PDT
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  • 05.04.2011 6:34 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: Sniffy66

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: Gamma 46

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Hm, I'd say until we know what Six's past deployments are like, we can't say Chief has more Covenant engagements.

Six, at the very least, knows how strong Zealot shields were prior to the WC encounter.


I agree there are too many unknowns, but of what portrayal we've gotten about him- perhaps as much as we'll ever get as they don't want to ruin his character being 'you'- he was largely involved in anti-Terror ops, perhaps being thrown into more Covenant-related Ops as the Inner-Colonies faced annihilation.

While he does know Zealot shield strength, it doesn't necesarrily mean he's fought one. I agree it's HIGHLY probable, but it is by no means guaranteed. I'm sure the UNSC has let the Spartans research/document shield strengths of various Covenant classes encountered. We may not have had the best info, but it's entirely possible that we had recorded some information about shield strength and how much it takes to down one.

Either way, I still believe Chief by far had much more Covenant contact compared to Six, and thus, had an ever so slight advantage in that regard.

Even with Chief having more Covenant contact, it doesn't show. Elites are constantly outclassing Chief when he decides to pick a fight with them. There are about four instances of an Elite giving Chief trouble, one at Gamma Station, one on the Ascendant Justice, one on the wreckage of the Pillar of Autumn and one on a Covenant ship as he was rescuing Dr. Halsey.

I'm sure Six has had trouble, but he took down quite a few Elites before succumbing to death. I doubt Chief would've lasted as long in a similar position.
Well technically all the times the elites gave him trouble were in hand to hand combat which as the books have said are essentially equal to a spartan. It's just they are smarter and more tactical. Six while taking them down used the assault rifle and the pistol to take them down. Also you should consider those elites were literally walking in a straight line towards him. Not to say it isn't badass it's just there were certain circumstances.


I wouldn't class this as hand-to-hand combat.

Fred on the other hand took care of three Elites with two combat knives.
That scene is incredibly stupid. John would take the sword and rush with his AR in the other hand, outclassing that elite.

  • 05.04.2011 6:37 PM PDT


Posted by: Onyx81
That scene is incredibly stupid. John would take the sword and rush with his AR in the other hand, outclassing that elite.


How is that scene stupid, his assault rifle was EMPTY.

  • 05.04.2011 6:46 PM PDT

Your all using ONE instance where John-117 is outclassed by a different character at one given time.
Obviously John is not godlike, he is human, and every human has flaws. We all make mistakes, he is no different, but the fact that you all have to use different characters to disprove that John-117 is not the best spartan makes me think he is one of the better spartans if not the best.

  • 05.04.2011 7:38 PM PDT


Posted by: ix forte xi
Your all using ONE instance where John-117 is outclassed by a different character at one given time.
Obviously John is not godlike, he is human, and every human has flaws. We all make mistakes, he is no different, but the fact that you all have to use different characters to disprove that John-117 is not the best spartan makes me think he is one of the better spartans if not the best.


Um... that's what we are fighting. Idiots who treat Master Chief as godlike and unstoppable. Mostly idiots who haven't read the books and understood that he did have trouble.

  • 05.04.2011 7:51 PM PDT

Posted by: forthnback
He's also, according to the novels, entirely mediocre as a Spartan. He is not the strongest, fastest, best marksmen, smartest, most agile, etc. He is average, in literally every regard. He is exceptional in only one regard, and that was leadership. He was one of four Spartan selected to be leaders (and even then, Kurt's team frequently outperformed John's team because Kurt was the better commander).

Bungie's stance, not mine, is that John is an average Spartan who excells at only one thing. Leadership. And he isn't even the best at that.

For those familiar with the definition of average, this means John was in the middle of his class as far as terms of abilities went. That means that 50% of the Spartans, roughly, would have performed as good as he did in Halo 1-3, if not better.

Here's my question has Bungie ever said John is just average? To my knowledge they've just said hes not the best at anything he could very well be in the 80+th percentile in every "quantifiable" category couldn't. It could be a very Fred like situation where Fred always got second place. Fred was one of the best (he could have possibly gotten first in nearly every category) and I don't see anything specific in the literature that says that John always finished the middle of the pack.
Another problem I have is that people are always saying how much better the other Spartans could have been at completing the challenges that the Chief accomplished. If that's the case why have so many of them died.(I know he had Cortana, but still) I think the Chief was truly special being able to complete the challenges he did throughout the course of the war. Unless someone can point out to me specifically that Bungie/343i have said that Chief is in the 50th percentile I'll continue to believe that the Master Chief, while not the best at anything, was one of the best at everything.

  • 05.04.2011 8:06 PM PDT

*Sigh* So because they might be better at Chief, that means they cannot die? Awesome logic....

  • 05.04.2011 8:13 PM PDT

http://www.halo-forum.com

Posted by: CowPieSky32
Posted by: forthnback
He's also, according to the novels, entirely mediocre as a Spartan. He is not the strongest, fastest, best marksmen, smartest, most agile, etc. He is average, in literally every regard. He is exceptional in only one regard, and that was leadership. He was one of four Spartan selected to be leaders (and even then, Kurt's team frequently outperformed John's team because Kurt was the better commander).

Bungie's stance, not mine, is that John is an average Spartan who excells at only one thing. Leadership. And he isn't even the best at that.

For those familiar with the definition of average, this means John was in the middle of his class as far as terms of abilities went. That means that 50% of the Spartans, roughly, would have performed as good as he did in Halo 1-3, if not better.

Here's my question has Bungie ever said John is just average? To my knowledge they've just said hes not the best at anything he could very well be in the 80+th percentile in every "quantifiable" category couldn't. It could be a very Fred like situation where Fred always got second place. Fred was one of the best (he could have possibly gotten first in nearly every category) and I don't see anything specific in the literature that says that John always finished the middle of the pack.
Another problem I have is that people are always saying how much better the other Spartans could have been at completing the challenges that the Chief accomplished. If that's the case why have so many of them died.(I know he had Cortana, but still) I think the Chief was truly special being able to complete the challenges he did throughout the course of the war. Unless someone can point out to me specifically that Bungie/343i have said that Chief is in the 50th percentile I'll continue to believe that the Master Chief, while not the best at anything, was one of the best at everything.

All of the Spartans were the best at everything. Their so called "specialities" were of a fractional difference compared to their piers, but a phenomenal difference to a standard human. When people say the Chief is "average" it is relative to the Spartans. The Spartans themselves are super human at all and every task and ability required of a soldier. Any single Spartan is a master of any weapon and any tactic. That is their sole purpose. They are the ultimate soldiers.
The fact that Kelly is faster, Linda is a better marksman etc. does not detract from the fact that all Spartans are masters of all things war. The Chief being "average" among the Spartans doesn't mean he isn't awesome, more that he has no specific attribute that he excels in more than the rest. That is what people mean when they say he isn't the "best" Spartan, because realistically there is no "best Spartan". Put any other Spartan in the Chief's shoes and the end result would probably have been the same.

[Edited on 05.04.2011 8:22 PM PDT]

  • 05.04.2011 8:20 PM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Um... that's what we are fighting. Idiots who treat Master Chief as godlike and unstoppable. Mostly idiots who haven't read the books and understood that he did have trouble.


Exceptional to godlike is a bit of a stretch.

  • 05.04.2011 8:27 PM PDT

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
*Sigh* So because they might be better at Chief, that means they cannot die? Awesome logic....


Lol it might do you some good to get off your "I know everything about Halo" throne. I am merely pointing out the fact what Chief did was extraordinary and I'm not so quick to think that many Spartans could've matched his performance. For those who have ever been part of a sports team you'll know that the second-stringers are never Captains. Its the best of the starters that are Captains and I don't think Kurt and the Chief could be really looked up to as leaders if they weren't some of the best in their class. A Spartans combat abilities can be a liability as well as an advantage and I think that John and Kurt were like Fred in the fact that they were above average in every category.

Trust me I know the Chief isn't perfect but I think it's harsh and kind of ridiculous when you see all the hate he gets.

I think its an overreaction by the "Universers" when they get tired of "MC-fanboys" claims that the Chief is God-like.

  • 05.04.2011 8:29 PM PDT
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Posted by: switch 104 sv
All of the Spartans were the best at everything. Their so called "specialities" were of a fractional difference compared to their peers, but a phenomenal difference to a standard human. When people say the Chief is "average" it is relative to the Spartans.

I think this sums it up well. To the people that havent read the books, Chief is appearing like he's godlike because when compared to the marines and all the other non-super soldier humans he fights alongside during the games, he is godlike.
Whereas in the books, he fights alongside other Spartans just as great as him, making his feats mediocre at best.

  • 05.04.2011 8:33 PM PDT


Posted by: CowPieSky32
Trust me I know the Chief isn't perfect but I think it's harsh and kind of ridiculous when you see all the hate he gets.

I think its an overreaction by the "Universers" when they get tired of "MC-fanboys" claims that the Chief is God-like.


The hate he gets from us is because of the undeserved god-throne he gets put on.

Frankly, It's not an overreaction. I've seen people put Chief on that pedestal. Now you see, Coma is one of the few people who thinks Master Chief is the best, and leaves it at that, HER opinion. She doesn't bash me because I don't think he's the best. We've talked about it (in one of her threads) and acknowledged each other's points and how they were good.

  • 05.04.2011 8:34 PM PDT

*Cough* he's alive *Cough*

  • 05.04.2011 8:35 PM PDT