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This topic has moved here: Subject: Why does no one remember that John isn't an exceptional Spartan?
  • Subject: Why does no one remember that John isn't an exceptional Spartan?
Subject: Why does no one remember that John isn't an exceptional Spartan?
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Ad eundum quo nemo ante iit

Posted by: ninjakenzen
Posted by: Snake Archer
Posted by: ninjakenzen
Exceptional or not. John was a pivotal player in preventing galactic suicide on many occasions.

I think that deserves some credit.

Even with the N6 comparison, one thing remains very important.

He survived.

All this "well, N6 could, would, should have" is nonsense. John was there kicking ass. While N6 is glassed in Reach. I hardly think that's a direct comparison.



No one is taking that away from the Chief, but lets remember 6 died saving the Chief, thus enabling Humanity's victory.

So the '6 is terrible because is died' debate is moot.

Hmm... Johnson and Keys died saving humanity.

Looks like everything humanity does from then on it partly accredited to them...

This logic is dum.

Noble Six died serving his mission. That's like saying without Jorge, Noble Six would have died activating the slipspace bomb.

Which is true..but...
So what?

People die for each other all the time in war. It's a very Noble deed that should be remembered. However this has no place in a comparison between Chief and N6.



With that logic; so what if John survived?
That doesn't make him better.

Switch the situation around, 6 is on the Autumn, Chief is manning the gun.

Chief with all the luck in the world isn't making it out of that.

So I'll say again what has been mentioned numerous times,

Just because 6 died doesn't make him/her terrible.

  • 05.06.2011 8:28 AM PDT

Game on! Lets have some fun. I am the true Tartan Spartan

Chief would have survived that!

If you (somehow) find out your gonna die old....you can go jump out of a building, wrestle with a bear......pretty much anything you want, cos you know that aint how you die!

Now you might be saying "what has this got to do with cheif?" Well jumping out of a building and surviving can be called 2 things....Luck or Fate!

Chief would have somehow survived that, either with luck or fate!

Ps....Noble 6 was one of the most battle hardened Spartans there is......He just wasnt on par with the Chief.

Peace out

  • 05.06.2011 9:28 AM PDT
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join Crimson Empire
Your loyalty and skill will be tested

he had luck /thread

  • 05.06.2011 9:32 AM PDT


Posted by: marhorn
Chief would have survived that!

If you (somehow) find out your gonna die old....you can go jump out of a building, wrestle with a bear......pretty much anything you want, cos you know that aint how you die!

Now you might be saying "what has this got to do with cheif?" Well jumping out of a building and surviving can be called 2 things....Luck or Fate!

Chief would have somehow survived that, either with luck or fate!

Ps....Noble 6 was one of the most battle hardened Spartans there is......He just wasnt on par with the Chief.

Peace out



Um, this is what I call bull-blam!-.

Chief, in the lone wolf situation? Would have died. Denying that is stupid.

  • 05.06.2011 9:38 AM PDT

Game on! Lets have some fun. I am the true Tartan Spartan

You Cmdr DaeFaron, obviously do not understand what i meant!

So to speak on terms you might......Chief stronger than Noble 6!

  • 05.06.2011 9:48 AM PDT
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Posted by: Achronos
It isn't our shiznit anymore.

Posted by: SlummyZeru
he had luck /thread
Yeah, OP you aren't taking into account the luck Chief had. The fact that the books and games would take the time to reference something as mysterious as "luck" should be an indicator that John was no ordinary Spartan. Chief had something on his side (whether that be divine intervention or pure coincidence), because accomplishing the feats he did would be challenging even for a Spartan.

  • 05.06.2011 10:16 AM PDT


Posted by: marhorn
You Cmdr DaeFaron, obviously do not understand what i meant!

So to speak on terms you might......Chief stronger than Noble 6!



Unless you meant something other then "If John was at the lone wolf level of Halo Reach, he would have survived!"

  • 05.06.2011 10:32 AM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: marhorn
You Cmdr DaeFaron, obviously do not understand what i meant!

So to speak on terms you might......Chief stronger than Noble 6!



Unless you meant something other then "If John was at the lone wolf level of Halo Reach, he would have survived!"


We can not use that ending as a bases for this argument, that ending scene is so stupid. He takes out 3 high ranking Elites (with shields)with JUST an Assult Rifle and a Pistol! AND he doesnt reload... AND he punches another one and takes ALL the shields down and floors him... all this whilst he is mega injured, armour damaged and his shields down? This is so unrealistic (in halo universe its unrealistic lol) and quite frankly that ending ruined everythign about Noble 6 for me. STUPID scene.

What is stopping a Marine going around with an AR and kicking Ultra Elites asses? One reason, they don;t have magical bullets that manage to -blam!- everything it touches.

[Edited on 05.06.2011 12:11 PM PDT]

  • 05.06.2011 12:03 PM PDT


Posted by: Surperion93

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: marhorn
You Cmdr DaeFaron, obviously do not understand what i meant!

So to speak on terms you might......Chief stronger than Noble 6!



Unless you meant something other then "If John was at the lone wolf level of Halo Reach, he would have survived!"


We can not use that ending as a bases for this argument, that ending scene is so stupid. He takes out 3 high ranking Elites (with shields)with JUST an Assult Rifle and a Pistol! AND he doesnt reload... AND he punches another one and takes ALL the shields down and floors him... all this whilst he is mega injured, armour damaged and his shields down? This is so unrealistic (in halo universe its unrealistic lol) and quite frankly that ending ruined everythign about Noble 6 for me. STUPID scene.

What is stopping a Marine going around with an AR and kicking Ultra Elites asses? One reason, they don;t have magical bullets that manage to -blam!- everything it touches.


I didn't bring in the end cutscene at all, besides that Six died.

I simply stated that if John was there, the end result (DEAD SPARTAN) would be the exact same.

  • 05.06.2011 12:22 PM PDT

I'm just saying the ending was ridiculous and we should not use it as a basis for this argument. I never singled you out, it's just we were essentially on the topic of the end level of Halo: Reach so I brought it up.

[Edited on 05.06.2011 12:29 PM PDT]

  • 05.06.2011 12:27 PM PDT


Posted by: Surperion93
I'm just saying the ending was ridiculous and we should not use it as a basis for this argument. I never singled you out, it's just we were essentially on the topic of the end level of Halo: Reach so I brought it up.


Well, maybe the elite kills yeah, but I'm talking about the level in general :D.

  • 05.06.2011 12:29 PM PDT

If you're passionate about the thing you're talking about, I'll always lend an ear.

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: ninjakenzen
Even with the N6 comparison, one thing remains very important.

He survived.

All this "well, N6 could, would, should have" is nonsense. John was there kicking ass. While N6 is glassed in Reach. I hardly think that's a direct comparison.



So, because Six died, he sucks? Not sure if that's what you are trying to say.

John was there, and fought on the orbital station. Six fought on the ground and died (He wasn't glassed, or his helm wouldn't be there.)

Survival in general does not prove one being better. The coward survives many engagements. Is he better then the sergeant who died in one of the first few?


What i was saying is that by him surviving Reach, he was capable of doing the things he had achieved that are noteworthy to the discussion.

N6 died in Reach, his past is unknown to us fans. How can we base judgement on that?

Btw Cmdr DaeFaron, that's not what i implied. Don't make up words and claim i said it. "So, because Six died, he sucks"

Nowhere had i said N6 sucks. I was simply evaluating the situation.

[Edited on 05.06.2011 12:54 PM PDT]

  • 05.06.2011 12:51 PM PDT

"What do you hear?"
"Nothing but the rain."
"Then grab your gun and bring in the cat."
"Boom, boom, boom!"

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Survival in general does not prove one being better.


This to a certain extent.

Without Six, the fragment of Cortana never would have gotten to the PoA and Halo would have never been found. Without Six, Chief never would have made it off planet. Both were essential to saving humanity yes but Six was the one that jump started that process. Six is on par with the Chief in awesomeness.

Posted by: marhorn
Chief would have survived that!


Any SPARTAN caught in a situation like that, where they're completely surrounded with no way out, wouldn't have survived. That's blind fanboyism right there to believe Chief would have gotten out. Luck or fate wouldn't save him. Only skill would have. And no amount of skill can pull someone out of a lose-lose situation like that, including the Chief.

  • 05.06.2011 12:55 PM PDT

Everytime Chief fights an Elite, it seems like a tough contest or a struggle for him. Noble Six handled himself much better.

  • 05.06.2011 3:10 PM PDT

Let's be honest, it could be a lot worse.


Posted by: Docterweegee
Master chief helped kill Osama (Snacks if you get this)


Lol colbert was right.

  • 05.06.2011 3:21 PM PDT


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: Gamma 46

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Hm, I'd say until we know what Six's past deployments are like, we can't say Chief has more Covenant engagements.

Six, at the very least, knows how strong Zealot shields were prior to the WC encounter.


I agree there are too many unknowns, but of what portrayal we've gotten about him- perhaps as much as we'll ever get as they don't want to ruin his character being 'you'- he was largely involved in anti-Terror ops, perhaps being thrown into more Covenant-related Ops as the Inner-Colonies faced annihilation.

While he does know Zealot shield strength, it doesn't necesarrily mean he's fought one. I agree it's HIGHLY probable, but it is by no means guaranteed. I'm sure the UNSC has let the Spartans research/document shield strengths of various Covenant classes encountered. We may not have had the best info, but it's entirely possible that we had recorded some information about shield strength and how much it takes to down one.

Either way, I still believe Chief by far had much more Covenant contact compared to Six, and thus, had an ever so slight advantage in that regard.

Even with Chief having more Covenant contact, it doesn't show. Elites are constantly outclassing Chief when he decides to pick a fight with them. There are about four instances of an Elite giving Chief trouble, one at Gamma Station, one on the Ascendant Justice, one on the wreckage of the Pillar of Autumn and one on a Covenant ship as he was rescuing Dr. Halsey.

I'm sure Six has had trouble, but he took down quite a few Elites before succumbing to death. I doubt Chief would've lasted as long in a similar position.


I've said it before, I guess I'll just say it again :P

I personally wouldn't use the Gamma Station encounter as evidence, nor be inclined to hold it in much regard, as when it was written that was supposed to be the first time that Elites were encountered in the war and there was no intel on them, it only makes sense that Chief would have a serious struggle with his first Elite. Your first encounter with something will usually be your hardest. Now, as to why I wouldn't use this as evidence or hold it as very credible evidence is the fact that Elites being encountered for the first time at Reach has since been retconned and Elites were fought all throughout the war. So Chief would have fought them before that point and the struggle of it being his first Elite shouldn't be there anymore, so imo some of the validity of this point has been removed.

On to the second event :P Chief had been fighting almost non-stop for a good 3+ days at least (IIRC), been wounded a whole lot in that space of time, and was suffering a major lack of sleep. So his combat prowess was not at optimal levels, and the Elite he fought was one of the best of the best as far as Elites go as it was a Shipmaster or some other high ranking Elite (please correct me if I'm wrong). In addition to Chief's condition, the Elite is wielding a sword in a very tight space (if memory serves me well). Any Spartan would be struggling with that under the exact same circumstances, even Fred who's the CQB specialist.

I don't remember him having trouble on the Pillar of Autumn, do you mean with Zamamee? Even if it wasn't him specifically, the Spec Ops Elites are nothing to sneeze at, they're some of the top fighters the Elites have. And pretty much everyone agrees that any Spartan will have more difficulty with any of the Elites above Major. And with the fight with Lodamee in the package, of course the Elite beat him in a duel, he would have beaten Fred in an energy sword duel too. And Chief's fought Elites with energy swords while his own weapon was either useless or he was weaponless, it was not certain that Lodamee would win the whole fight and kill Chief. I think any other Spartan would be in the same position simply for the fact that the energy sword is an Elite weapon and any Elite using it will know more about how to use it properly and more skillfully than a Spartan or anyone else who has just acquired one.

All fair evaluations.

That said, I would still say Noble Six outperformed Chief in the end. Yes, she died, but Six managed to kill numerous high-ranking Elites while getting shot at and bleeding out, probably suffering from a lack of sleep and rest too.

I get Chief did a lot of cool things, but if he didn't get Cortana, I doubt he would've lived to do so.


Meh, I personally think Six and Chief are equal in skills and would have done just as well as each other placed in the same circumstances with only very subtle differences. And if their places were exchanged, Chief may have survived Reach due to his whole luck factor.

I don't really think Cortana has much to do with it either. The only real time she did anything in regards to helping Chief was kill the Infection Form that got through his defenses. I'm not minimalizing Cortana's significance, but she really didn't do much, it was all Chief's skills that got them through everything, and Chief performed equally well without her as he did with Cortana as we saw in Halo 3.

  • 05.06.2011 3:42 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

^ But....he had the help of Ze Arbiturrrrr. ):

  • 05.06.2011 3:44 PM PDT


Posted by: RKOSNAKE
^ But....he had the help of Ze Arbiturrrrr. ):


And Six always had at least one member of Noble Team with her throughout Reach, the Arbiter was not with Chief all that much in Halo 3, and anyway, having another badass present does not mean they're any less skillful :P

  • 05.06.2011 4:02 PM PDT

-blam!- Was that actually blammed out? Or did I just type it? You'll never know.

Except he kind of is the most exceptional Spartan.

  • 05.06.2011 4:14 PM PDT
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Posted by: dahuterschuter
Except he kind of is the most exceptional Spartan.


Fred is more exceptional.

  • 05.06.2011 4:17 PM PDT

-blam!- Was that actually blammed out? Or did I just type it? You'll never know.


Posted by: manwith
Posted by: dahuterschuter
Except he kind of is the most exceptional Spartan.


Fred is more exceptional.


So is Kurt really.

  • 05.06.2011 4:45 PM PDT
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact


Posted by: manwith
Posted by: dahuterschuter
Except he kind of is the most exceptional Spartan.


Fred is more exceptional.


Prove it.

  • 05.06.2011 4:50 PM PDT
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Posted by: hotshot revan II

Posted by: manwith
Posted by: dahuterschuter
Except he kind of is the most exceptional Spartan.


Fred is more exceptional.


Prove it.


Fred: Exceptional at leadership, exceptional at close quarters combat, exceptional at sniping. Came in second in all of the contests.

John: Exceptional at leadership, does not specialize any area, does not perform the best at any category.

  • 05.06.2011 5:03 PM PDT

Posted by: OrderedComa
Meh, I personally think Six and Chief are equal in skills and would have done just as well as each other placed in the same circumstances with only very subtle differences. And if their places were exchanged, Chief may have survived Reach due to his whole luck factor.


Why can't we all just agree on this and move on!? =P

Yeah, he was lucky alright...lucky his chief @$$ was on the Pillar and not down there where N6 was. =P

And to be on topic, Yes! I like Master Chief because he wasn't really exceptional in any particular area. I feel like him sometimes, like I want to be known for a particular skill, but just not possessing the significance of being the strongest, the fastest, or the smartest. I feel like him often, I feel like I have to win, all the time, its like all you have when your skills are consistently undermined, and it seems like sometimes our mother is the only one who sees anything in us (Halsey).

[Edited on 05.06.2011 5:12 PM PDT]

  • 05.06.2011 5:09 PM PDT

Posted by: kikashi hatake
I don't understand oral at all. I will never do that it is so nasty! And doing things in woods sounds scary.

Because he is the only one that has 3 video games...

  • 05.06.2011 5:40 PM PDT