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This topic has moved here: Subject: Why does no one remember that John isn't an exceptional Spartan?
  • Subject: Why does no one remember that John isn't an exceptional Spartan?
Subject: Why does no one remember that John isn't an exceptional Spartan?

Feel my Raf

Whilst training as an elite soldier, I found that the guys training by my side, (Including myself) weren't really anything special and that it didn't really matter how good you did something but more how you coped and reacted to the challenges we faced. The guys that usually glided through selection where the grey men that never get noticed, never partied too hard and always did there home work. John 117 is just that isn't he? A grey man.

[Edited on 05.23.2011 1:37 PM PDT]

  • 05.23.2011 1:36 PM PDT


Posted by: MGTrey
But he was still the best. Certainly an "exceptional Spartan", considering he was Team Leader before he became a walking badass dispenser.


Debateble.

Besides, you all make him out to be badass 100% THE BOOKS STATE that he was not.

If he was so -blam!- badass and the best Spartan evar, he wouldn't have fallen for the innie trap would he? Or been flanked by an Elite first moments on Alpha Halo.

Or nearly got his ass handed to him by the spec ops...

List goes on. You see, one of the few people who I respect who thinks John was the best is Come. Why? She's respectful of others and engages in intelligent debates about the subject. She goes "Oh, I see where you are coming from, and yeah I agree with that bit."

She doesn't do "He's the best lulz, nobody else could do what he did!" or shove it in peoples faces when they say "I don't think he's the best."

  • 05.23.2011 1:36 PM PDT
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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Ugh, and here you are using the "Because no other Spartan was in a spot where they could have done it, means THEY CANNOT!"

Anyway, as Master Chief was simply among the best of the Spartans, that means, by simple logic, others could do what he did.


No, I said they could not because they weren't the Chief. The only thing other Spartans could have done was have a chance at doing what the Chief did. That is all that logic guarantees in the instance. But, because they did not, and the Chief did, logically he's better.

Also logically, because I proved that Cortana would not function as efficiently with Spartans other than John, I destroyed your argument about other Spartans being able to replicate the Chief's feats with the same gear.

  • 05.23.2011 1:37 PM PDT
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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Debateble.

Besides, you all make him out to be badass 100% THE BOOKS STATE that he was not.

If he was so -blam!- badass and the best Spartan evar, he wouldn't have fallen for the innie trap would he? Or been flanked by an Elite first moments on Alpha Halo.

Or nearly got his ass handed to him by the spec ops...

List goes on. You see, one of the few people who I respect who thinks John was the best is Come. Why? She's respectful of others and engages in intelligent debates about the subject. She goes "Oh, I see where you are coming from, and yeah I agree with that bit."

She doesn't do "He's the best lulz, nobody else could do what he did!" or shove it in peoples faces when they say "I don't think he's the best."


I respect your argument on the basis that I'm replying to it. Anything more is filling and adds nothing to the merit of the debate at hand. It would be different if we were talking about opinions. But we're not, and I'm the only one presenting facts. I apologize if I come off as condescending, but it is what it is.

This is a fun analogy I like to make: Michael Jordan is ultimately considered the greatest basketball player ever, without question. He was not the best shooter, fastest dribbler, most intuitive, best passer, best teammate, most winning player, or any other lone metric. Yet, he's the best.

John is the same.

Also, being the best does not mean you are invincible. I never even came close to stating as much. Please stop with the silly strawman arguments.

  • 05.23.2011 1:46 PM PDT

; >

Thanks for the info :) !

  • 05.23.2011 1:48 PM PDT


Posted by: MGTrey

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Ugh, and here you are using the "Because no other Spartan was in a spot where they could have done it, means THEY CANNOT!"

Anyway, as Master Chief was simply among the best of the Spartans, that means, by simple logic, others could do what he did.


No, I said they could not because they weren't the Chief. The only thing other Spartans could have done was have a chance at doing what the Chief did. That is all that logic guarantees in the instance. But, because they did not, and the Chief did, logically he's better.

Also logically, because I proved that Cortana would not function as efficiently with Spartans other than John, I destroyed your argument about other Spartans being able to replicate the Chief's feats with the same gear.


Um, not really about the gear. I never said they'd preform the exact same way. All you did was grasp at 'silly strawman arguments' by saying this tiny numbers means... let's say Fred would for some reason perform FAR below what chief did.

  • 05.23.2011 2:01 PM PDT

"The object of war is not die for your counrty but to make the other bastard die for his."

lols this is comical now...

I think what people need to understand is that...logic does NOT state that the other spartans could have done what John did. Logic dictates that the other spartans COULD have possibly done what John did. As in there is a chance.

If you can't understand this basic fact then there's no point in arguing any further. Because I could state that well had John gotten a good night sleep he could take out 6 or 7 elite majors with just an assault rifle and a pistol based on his previous elite encounters (dis-counting the situation on Gamma station based on Retconned information).

Further based on John's actions on Halo; I could say that HAD he returned to human space John could have fought the Innies and killed many thousands on Innies (i.e. making many organizations simply vanish).
Can you see what we are stating?

We are not (or at least the ones worth debating with...) putting John on some super-high pedestal; we are looking at what he HAS done and acknowledging that fact.

Furthermore; everyone points to Cortana and says...hey she did everything. But again; John and Cortana worked WELL together. The next argument I see is that well had Six and Cortana worked well together then the same thing would have happened, but the point is that they DIDN'T. Obviously Cortana helped John succeed, and this resulted because of their co-operation and compatibility.

You brought up the point that alot of the events wouldn't have occurred without Cortana's influence; the logical conclusion is that Cortana needed to play a pivotal role and that were she with some other Spartan who either didn't trust her as much or didn't work well with her would have had a different outcome. (To say that it was any better or any worse is undetermined to some degree.)

My point is this; is John exceptionally better than any other Spartan? Nope
Was John however uniquely suited to take on and encounter the events that occurred on Halo and there-after because of his close ties with Cortana and all-around resourcefulness and bravery? Yes, yes he was.

Perhaps the other Spartans would have been able to do as much damage as John, but the fact remains that due to the technological nature of the encounters on Halo; John's close ties to Cortana gives him a distinct advantage; especially because of their compatibility whether that be from Halsley or not. IF she is biased it doesn't matter; because it meant that Cortana's addition to John's arsenal made him better.

If you could give EVERY spartan a uniquely suited smart-AI then I'd re-evaluate the situation...but as it stands we can't.

One final thing; some people are pointing to Six's stealth versus John's. One of the biggest things to remember is that for Halo 1, 2, and 3 the Covenant already knew of John's presence. This means that strategically John doesn't have the element of surprise, but tactically he does (Truth and Reconciliation is an example of tactical surprise, but the covenant KNEW he was there) The scope of the battles is different. I take nothing from Six and what he did, but trying to compare those two and determine a stealth difference is Apples to Oranges...

So do I place John on some high-pedestal? No
But do I feel that John and all of his experiences and advantages gave him the upper hand at the encounters on Halo? Yes, yes I do...

  • 05.23.2011 8:10 PM PDT

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Posted by: THE C TRAYNE
Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Posted by: nightspark
Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Posted by: Fly Boy 2113
Good point. Just look at Halo3 compared to Reach. John can jump, Noble six can sprint, use a knife, use a jetpack, lock his armor, and use a hologram.[/quote]
Don't forget, he can also evade and use unlimited bubble shields.

And Six still got his beans smashed.

By seven high ranking Elites, I think that is better than Chief's punny fight against a Minor in Gamma station or against the Ship master of the Ascendant Justice.



the chief has had plenty of serious fights against tough opponents and come out on top fighting by himself... including taking out numerous pairs of hunters too


...with Cortana.


So what exactly does that mean. He fought through these incredbily tough situations with tactical assistance from Cortana. She couldn't do the fighting for him, and i believe John has his own wits on tactical thinking.

She provides intel on what is happening, on the objectives at hand, and sometimes just rambles on about random stuff. Now I unfortunetly havent read all of the book and can bareley remember the ones i have but what does Cortana really do.

When intergrated with the Chief's armor does she give him extra superpowers, make him even more tactful, or make him exceptional in any other way you can probably think of. I dont think she does she is simply there as an AI that gives intel on mission status.

Just wanted to see if anyone else was having that question. This person seems to be using the Cortana excuse a lot but im not sure a lot of people understand how you are using it to back up your arguement. I hope someone explains so others like me can understand why she is so suddenley pivotal or if she is just being used as a way to make Chief's feats seem lees exceptional.

EDIT: And Jesus Cmr i usually try not to be insulting but enough with explaining how awesome coma is every damn 5 posts. We understand the lady has an open minded view on this debate so stop bringing it up. I've read through a ton of the pages and have seen it on many occasions.

[Edited on 05.23.2011 11:39 PM PDT]

  • 05.23.2011 11:34 PM PDT

Cortana allowed Chief to better use his armor. Increasing reaction time and such.

Lol, didn't think I brought her up that much. When I do, it's simply to point out they should stop being to stupidly zealous about it and attacking those with views different to theirs :P.

  • 05.23.2011 11:41 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Cortana allowed Chief to better use his armor. Increasing reaction time and such.

Lol, didn't think I brought her up that much. When I do, it's simply to point out they should stop being to stupidly zealous about it and attacking those with views different to theirs :P.


I've only seen her being mentioned in one or two posts of yours.

  • 05.23.2011 11:44 PM PDT

So that's why hes the only one that dies repeatedly by brute melees

  • 05.24.2011 12:10 AM PDT

Posted by: ProHOTSHOT


So what exactly does that mean. He fought through these incredbily tough situations with tactical assistance from Cortana. She couldn't do the fighting for him, and i believe John has his own wits on tactical thinking.

She provides intel on what is happening, on the objectives at hand, and sometimes just rambles on about random stuff. Now I unfortunetly havent read all of the book and can bareley remember the ones i have but what does Cortana really do.

When intergrated with the Chief's armor does she give him extra superpowers, make him even more tactful, or make him exceptional in any other way you can probably think of. I dont think she does she is simply there as an AI that gives intel on mission status.

Just wanted to see if anyone else was having that question. This person seems to be using the Cortana excuse a lot but im not sure a lot of people understand how you are using it to back up your arguement. I hope someone explains so others like me can understand why she is so suddenley pivotal or if she is just being used as a way to make Chief's feats seem lees exceptional.


I repeat myself... once again.

From Halopedian


Cortana is an extremely advanced "Smart" AI, described once as "a generational leap" in AI technology. Her software is designed to infiltrate computer systems, and she is excellent at the task - as of early 2553, she had never encountered a Covenant security measure that she wasn't able to bypass. In addition, she is proficient with UNSC military hardware and can run military ships and stations almost entirely by herself. The UNSC's primary use of AIs is to oversee targeting of point-defense weaponry used in space battles, but for Cortana, this is merely an additional capability.Cortana has acted as the AI of the Pillar of Autumn, Cairo Station, the Forward Unto Dawn, the Gettysburg and even the Covenant flagship Ascendant Justice.

Cortana can be transferred among various computer systems, either through a data crystal chip or through close physical proximity to a computer system (though it appears that the method of transfer depends on the available technology).
On the battlefield, Cortana is able to gather data from local sources (including the Covenant Battlenet) and improvise effective battle strategies. John-117 acknowledged her as providing "intel support in an operation where their had been no reconnaissance." Her efficiency for planning has helped John-117 and others in many dire situations.

Cortana is also capable of interfacing with Forerunner technology. During the Battle of Reach, she was able to decode a large amount of data from the Babd Catha Forerunner Complex, and while on Installation 04 she was able to make use of the installation's Teleportation Grid.

Another of her abilities is the ability to clone herself, which she learned from a Covenant A.I. she captured and dissected. She can create multiple runtimes of herself to carry out different tasks simultaneously. At one point, she created a clone of her infiltration abilities to give the Chief enough of her capabilities to infiltrate the Covenant command and control station. Although not a complete copy, the clone had at least some of her personality. The clone retained her abilities to hack systems and some limited mission planning routines that allowed her to make basic plans to help the Spartans, but was unable to make the complicated plans that Cortana could come up with. The original clone made a copy of itself into the station's systems to help out and due to being overwhelmed by Covenant security A.I.'s, ended up making hundreds of copies of itself which overwhelmed the system and made accomplishing anything hard for the clones as they began to lose their coherent state, but still could control the system. All of the clones created on the mission were destroyed when the station blew, but provided an invaluable help to the Spartan team. Later, while held captive by the Gravemind, Cortana used her cloning ability to create data-stripped clones of herself and ones of her lower-priority functions to distract the Gravemind. These were all consumed by the Gravemind, but they helped buy Cortana time and one also helped her create her message to the Master Chief. Some were even responsible for the more rampant parts of two of the Cortana Moments.

Cortana is capable of linking her consciousness with a SPARTAN-II through the SPARTAN's armor and neural interface, allowing her to enhance the performance of the armor and communicate directly to the SPARTAN's mind. She has displayed this capability extensively during her time serving with John-117. Although this is not necessarily an ability exclusive to Cortana, her neural link with John-117 marked the first time that a "Smart" AI had joined minds with a human (as noted by the Assembly in 2552).


Its not an excuse, its a fact. A great deal of Master Chief's abilities that allow him to make decisions and actions at the last minute (such as activating the Antimatter bomb in the Assault Carrier during the opening of Halo 2, to escape in the nick of time), even speeding up his reaction time past its already ridiculously short window, and increase the lifting strength and speed of his armor.

In all honesty, I think I would have to say that his "luck" and "Cortana" are one and the same.

  • 05.24.2011 2:10 AM PDT

Que Pasta...?
:D

The reason the Chief was considered such a good Spartan was because, rather than being good at one specific thing, and limiting his abilities, he was average in everything.

In a combat scenario, this gave him a much more all round choice as to how he could take on a challenge.

It would have made him much more efficient in long-term, and non-specialised missions than the other Spartans of his class.

  • 05.24.2011 2:32 AM PDT
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You DO realise this was a troll post right?

We all know he was the greatest Spartan...

  • 05.24.2011 2:41 AM PDT

Posted by: Dagnir
You DO realise this was a troll post right?

We all know he was the greatest Spartan...


Bias. Opinion.

...there is no "know" to it.

  • 05.24.2011 2:44 AM PDT
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I was hoping not to get dragged into this....

It's not bias or opinion.

Overall he was/is the greatest spartan. Fact.

  • 05.24.2011 2:49 AM PDT
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Posted by: Dagnir
I was hoping not to get dragged into this....

It's not bias or opinion.

Overall he was/is the greatest spartan. Fact.

Yeah, it is an opinion not fact. As several people have repeated this entire thread John IS NOT the greatest. He is however among the them.

I don't think there can truly be a best spartan. Due to their extensive training, decades of experience and the unpredictableness(is that a word?) of warfare it'd be impossible to find a spartan who performs so much better than all the others in every situation that you can call one the best.

  • 05.24.2011 3:16 AM PDT
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Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Mochamoo
Hyper-lethal is a bloody adjective, not a rating. Why do people think it's actually a category?


Because Six's profile here on Bungie.net describes her as more of a Hyper-Lethal Vector than a soldier. And also Halsey's own words in the "A Spartan will Rise" trailer. The quote is this "Curious, Hyper-Lethal...only one other Spartan has that rating".

So it is some sort of classification, and it doesn't need much definition (though that would be nice) because it's exactly what it sounds like it is and means.


The way I interpreted it was that when Halsey says "rating", she's referring to both words used to describe Noble 6, "Curious" and "hyper-lethal". She's citing the traits that make an excellent soldier.

  • 05.24.2011 4:01 AM PDT
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Posted by: Mochamoo

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Mochamoo
Hyper-lethal is a bloody adjective, not a rating. Why do people think it's actually a category?


Because Six's profile here on Bungie.net describes her as more of a Hyper-Lethal Vector than a soldier. And also Halsey's own words in the "A Spartan will Rise" trailer. The quote is this "Curious, Hyper-Lethal...only one other Spartan has that rating".

So it is some sort of classification, and it doesn't need much definition (though that would be nice) because it's exactly what it sounds like it is and means.


The way I interpreted it was that when Halsey says "rating", she's referring to both words used to describe Noble 6, "Curious" and "hyper-lethal". She's citing the traits that make an excellent soldier.


She also said "one OTHER spartan" clearly implying that John was the first hyper lethal one.

But besides this, I agree with the OP. He was average with everything. Except of course, his luck, which was there from the moment that Halsey met him. The fact that he was able to guess the side of the coin that had landed.

  • 05.24.2011 5:06 AM PDT


Posted by: leeje
She also said "one OTHER spartan" clearly implying that John was the first hyper lethal one.


We can get into a massive debate over that, but honestly, nothing implies the Chief as being that person beyond fan speculation. (IMO)

  • 05.24.2011 9:17 AM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: leeje
She also said "one OTHER spartan" clearly implying that John was the first hyper lethal one.


We can get into a massive debate over that, but honestly, nothing implies the Chief as being that person beyond fan speculation. (IMO)


It is obvious that halsey was talking about the chief *rolls eyes*

The entire thing is marketing anyway so it should be taken with weight. 6 didn't do anything outstanding during the entire game.

  • 05.24.2011 9:46 AM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: leeje
She also said "one OTHER spartan" clearly implying that John was the first hyper lethal one.


We can get into a massive debate over that, but honestly, nothing implies the Chief as being that person beyond fan speculation. (IMO)


It is obvious that halsey was talking about the chief *rolls eyes*

The entire thing is marketing anyway so it should be taken with weight. 6 didn't do anything outstanding during the entire game.


I honestly cannot believe DaeFaron still denies that Halsey is referring to John.

6 has never really done anything worthy of note because we know nothing about him, not the best path to tread with protagonists really. At least the Rookie and John ended up getting quite a lot of development.

  • 05.24.2011 9:58 AM PDT


Posted by: ajw34307

Posted by: grey101

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: leeje
She also said "one OTHER spartan" clearly implying that John was the first hyper lethal one.


We can get into a massive debate over that, but honestly, nothing implies the Chief as being that person beyond fan speculation. (IMO)


It is obvious that halsey was talking about the chief *rolls eyes*

The entire thing is marketing anyway so it should be taken with weight. 6 didn't do anything outstanding during the entire game.


I honestly cannot believe DaeFaron still denies that Halsey is referring to John.

6 has never really done anything worthy of note because we know nothing about him, not the best path to tread with protagonists really. At least the Rookie and John ended up getting quite a lot of development.


And compared to other Spartans of his Squad, John hasn't done anything super-worthy of a hyper-lethal rating either.

  • 05.24.2011 10:09 AM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: ajw34307

Posted by: grey101

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: leeje
She also said "one OTHER spartan" clearly implying that John was the first hyper lethal one.


We can get into a massive debate over that, but honestly, nothing implies the Chief as being that person beyond fan speculation. (IMO)


It is obvious that halsey was talking about the chief *rolls eyes*

The entire thing is marketing anyway so it should be taken with weight. 6 didn't do anything outstanding during the entire game.


I honestly cannot believe DaeFaron still denies that Halsey is referring to John.

6 has never really done anything worthy of note because we know nothing about him, not the best path to tread with protagonists really. At least the Rookie and John ended up getting quite a lot of development.


And compared to other Spartans of his Squad, John hasn't done anything super-worthy of a hyper-lethal rating either.


No, it's not like he survived over 200 missions against Innies and Covenant, received every single medal (albeit POW) and killed over a thousand Grunts during the battle of Jericho VII.

  • 05.24.2011 10:18 AM PDT


Posted by: ajw34307
No, it's not like he survived over 200 missions against Innies and Covenant, received every single medal (albeit POW) and killed over a thousand Grunts during the battle of Jericho VII.


A: deployed with a team.
B: We never hear of other Spartan medal chests, as he worked with a team always, those other spartans most likely had similar medals.
C: Again, with a team.

Now... if he did all that alone sure.

  • 05.24.2011 10:27 AM PDT