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  • Subject: Why does no one remember that John isn't an exceptional Spartan?
Subject: Why does no one remember that John isn't an exceptional Spartan?

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: ajw34307
No, it's not like he survived over 200 missions against Innies and Covenant, received every single medal (albeit POW) and killed over a thousand Grunts during the battle of Jericho VII.


A: deployed with a team.
B: We never hear of other Spartan medal chests, as he worked with a team always, those other spartans most likely had similar medals.
C: Again, with a team.

Now... if he did all that alone sure.


A) So there's no way he can be hyper-lethal just because he has a team? Okay... I do recall him killing 2 well trained ODSTs and inflicting life-threatening injuries on the others at the age of 14.

B) A reason for this being emphasis on John's achievements, emphasis on what HE has done to give us the hyper-lethal impression. Do not argue my point with what "might" have happened.

C) Refer to point A.

[Edited on 05.24.2011 10:35 AM PDT]

  • 05.24.2011 10:33 AM PDT
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Posted by: Nameless Oracle

Posted by: Dagnir
I was hoping not to get dragged into this....

It's not bias or opinion.

Overall he was/is the greatest spartan. Fact.

Yeah, it is an opinion not fact. As several people have repeated this entire thread John IS NOT the greatest. He is however among the them.

I don't think there can truly be a best spartan. Due to their extensive training, decades of experience and the unpredictableness(is that a word?) of warfare it'd be impossible to find a spartan who performs so much better than all the others in every situation that you can call one the best.


He was most certainly the greatest Spartan. Easy. Whether he was the "best" or if other Spartans could have done what he did is what some people are ankle-biting at now.

[Edited on 05.24.2011 10:50 AM PDT]

  • 05.24.2011 10:47 AM PDT
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact

Chief had 200 missions against the covies before the fall of Reach.

Fred had 120 against the covies before the fall of Reach.

  • 05.24.2011 10:56 AM PDT


Posted by: ajw34307
A) So there's no way he can be hyper-lethal just because he has a team? Okay... I do recall him killing 2 well trained ODSTs and inflicting life-threatening injuries on the others at the age of 14.


Um, yeah John did that because he didn't know his own strength, the ODSTs underestimated him and didn't know what they were dealing with.

If they had known, and Chief understood his Spartan strength, it simply wouldn't have happened.

Also, never said that, my point was going "Master Chief is hyper lethal cause he's been on so many missions" is kinda moot. That is, unless he gets credit for everything his teammates did. Such as the grunt killing.

Also, to another post, where did it ever say Fred had 120.

  • 05.24.2011 11:00 AM PDT
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact

@cmdr

Master Chief says so in FS before they went zero gee to repair some damaged conduit on the AJ in the slipspacebattle.He was reviewing his team inside his head.

  • 05.24.2011 11:09 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: OrderedComa
I wouldn't put much stock in Chief fight with the Minor on Gamma Station, because as I've said many, many, many times before, that was supposed to be the first time he had ever encountered an Elite and he didn't know how exactly to fight with one. That has since been retconned and it and should have been slightly rewritten other than just changing things having to do with it being the first time Elites were fought.

And again, the fight with the Elite on the Ascendant Justice is a completely different scenario. Chief has been fighting almost totally all by himself and almost completely non stop for several days, he was wounded with little to no treatment, no real rest, fought through the Flood, the Elite was higher ranking one and was wielding a sword at close quarters, and Chief had others with him he had to be careful of (IE couldn't shoot at the Elite because he was afraid of hitting someone else). IIRC Halsey even states that it's a wonder he was still standing when they meet up again.

Six on the other hand, she had been fighting for quite a while, but there were breaks of several days between a lot of the fights she took part in, was at a UNSC held world as opposed to the middle of nowhere and would have gotten any wounds received treated properly, Six had at least one other Spartan with her almost every mission she took part in on Reach, her final fight with the Elites was out in the open and most of the Elites she killed she had gunned down, and she didn't have anyone else to watch out for besides enemies during her final fight. Now I'm not trying to minimize Six's accomplishment in any way, I'm merely pointing out that the scenario leading up to and for her final fight and the scenario leading up to and for Chief's fight for the Ascendant Justice are completely different.

Also, what height was the Minor on Gamma station? Described as being a metre taller than John, which puts it in around 10ft tall. Of course he is going to struggle against something that is 10 ft tall. (Nylund does like his ridiculously tall Elites. Yes Xytan, I'm looking at you too.)

  • 05.24.2011 11:09 AM PDT


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: OrderedComa
I wouldn't put much stock in Chief fight with the Minor on Gamma Station, because as I've said many, many, many times before, that was supposed to be the first time he had ever encountered an Elite and he didn't know how exactly to fight with one. That has since been retconned and it and should have been slightly rewritten other than just changing things having to do with it being the first time Elites were fought.

And again, the fight with the Elite on the Ascendant Justice is a completely different scenario. Chief has been fighting almost totally all by himself and almost completely non stop for several days, he was wounded with little to no treatment, no real rest, fought through the Flood, the Elite was higher ranking one and was wielding a sword at close quarters, and Chief had others with him he had to be careful of (IE couldn't shoot at the Elite because he was afraid of hitting someone else). IIRC Halsey even states that it's a wonder he was still standing when they meet up again.

Six on the other hand, she had been fighting for quite a while, but there were breaks of several days between a lot of the fights she took part in, was at a UNSC held world as opposed to the middle of nowhere and would have gotten any wounds received treated properly, Six had at least one other Spartan with her almost every mission she took part in on Reach, her final fight with the Elites was out in the open and most of the Elites she killed she had gunned down, and she didn't have anyone else to watch out for besides enemies during her final fight. Now I'm not trying to minimize Six's accomplishment in any way, I'm merely pointing out that the scenario leading up to and for her final fight and the scenario leading up to and for Chief's fight for the Ascendant Justice are completely different.

Also, what height was the Minor on Gamma station? Described as being a metre taller than John, which puts it in around 10ft tall. Of course he is going to struggle against something that is 10 ft tall. (Nylund does like his ridiculously tall Elites. Yes Xytan, I'm looking at you too.)


If it's 10 feet tall then yeah, there's part of your answer too :P I think even Six, or any other Spartan, would have more difficulty with an Elite that's 10 feet tall than your average sized one.

  • 05.24.2011 7:33 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: OrderedComa
I wouldn't put much stock in Chief fight with the Minor on Gamma Station, because as I've said many, many, many times before, that was supposed to be the first time he had ever encountered an Elite and he didn't know how exactly to fight with one. That has since been retconned and it and should have been slightly rewritten other than just changing things having to do with it being the first time Elites were fought.

And again, the fight with the Elite on the Ascendant Justice is a completely different scenario. Chief has been fighting almost totally all by himself and almost completely non stop for several days, he was wounded with little to no treatment, no real rest, fought through the Flood, the Elite was higher ranking one and was wielding a sword at close quarters, and Chief had others with him he had to be careful of (IE couldn't shoot at the Elite because he was afraid of hitting someone else). IIRC Halsey even states that it's a wonder he was still standing when they meet up again.

Six on the other hand, she had been fighting for quite a while, but there were breaks of several days between a lot of the fights she took part in, was at a UNSC held world as opposed to the middle of nowhere and would have gotten any wounds received treated properly, Six had at least one other Spartan with her almost every mission she took part in on Reach, her final fight with the Elites was out in the open and most of the Elites she killed she had gunned down, and she didn't have anyone else to watch out for besides enemies during her final fight. Now I'm not trying to minimize Six's accomplishment in any way, I'm merely pointing out that the scenario leading up to and for her final fight and the scenario leading up to and for Chief's fight for the Ascendant Justice are completely different.

Also, what height was the Minor on Gamma station? Described as being a metre taller than John, which puts it in around 10ft tall. Of course he is going to struggle against something that is 10 ft tall. (Nylund does like his ridiculously tall Elites. Yes Xytan, I'm looking at you too.)


If it's 10 feet tall then yeah, there's part of your answer too :P I think even Six, or any other Spartan, would have more difficulty with an Elite that's 10 feet tall than your average sized one.


Eric was most probably exaggerating when he wrote the height, seeing how the tallest Elite is Xytan and he has hinted that his headdress makes him taller and he may also use elevated boots. Another reason was that he adjusted the size of his hologram to make himself look bigger (correct me if I'm wrong there, but when the Elites gathered, he was displayed in a hologram due to him being exiled.

I mean, Ripa Moramee is exaggeratively big for Elite standards and he is 8 foot 1 inches.

  • 05.24.2011 8:03 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Eric was most probably exaggerating when he wrote the height, seeing how the tallest Elite is Xytan and he has hinted that his headdress makes him taller and he may also use elevated boots. Another reason was that he adjusted the size of his hologram to make himself look bigger (correct me if I'm wrong there, but when the Elites gathered, he was displayed in a hologram due to him being exiled.

I mean, Ripa Moramee is exaggeratively big for Elite standards and he is 8 foot 1 inches.

Yeah. Oh yeah I agree with this generally.

10 ft tall Elites are just random given that the average height back then was 8'6, now 7'4. I am not sure if the 10ft tall minor was retconned in height with the re-releases, but if not then what can be done.

  • 05.24.2011 8:33 PM PDT

It seems like after 20 pages it comes down to what your talking about...

Best as in skill? Chief wasn't the best in anything, although above average in everything. Kurt?
Best in potential? Who knows. Kurt aswell I believe.
Best in accomplishments? Chief. Hands down.
Right place, right time? Chief.
Most 'lucky' (depending on interpretation)? Chief.
Who did all the shmexy stuff that made him humanities hero? Chief!
(note: couldn't have been done without Cortana, brings up the question of others relation with Cortana)


I honestly think Chief is the best due to his accomplishments, who's to say anyone else would be able to do what he did, simply because so many things we cannot predict could have killed any other Spartan placed in his spot. Chief made the choices that saved humanity, and no one will ever be able to say with 100% assurance that anyone else would have been right for the job.

But again, it depends on what aspect of 'best' we are looking at.

[Edited on 05.24.2011 9:10 PM PDT]

  • 05.24.2011 9:09 PM PDT

Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: OrderedComa
I wouldn't put much stock in Chief fight with the Minor on Gamma Station, because as I've said many, many, many times before, that was supposed to be the first time he had ever encountered an Elite and he didn't know how exactly to fight with one. That has since been retconned and it and should have been slightly rewritten other than just changing things having to do with it being the first time Elites were fought.

And again, the fight with the Elite on the Ascendant Justice is a completely different scenario. Chief has been fighting almost totally all by himself and almost completely non stop for several days, he was wounded with little to no treatment, no real rest, fought through the Flood, the Elite was higher ranking one and was wielding a sword at close quarters, and Chief had others with him he had to be careful of (IE couldn't shoot at the Elite because he was afraid of hitting someone else). IIRC Halsey even states that it's a wonder he was still standing when they meet up again.

Six on the other hand, she had been fighting for quite a while, but there were breaks of several days between a lot of the fights she took part in, was at a UNSC held world as opposed to the middle of nowhere and would have gotten any wounds received treated properly, Six had at least one other Spartan with her almost every mission she took part in on Reach, her final fight with the Elites was out in the open and most of the Elites she killed she had gunned down, and she didn't have anyone else to watch out for besides enemies during her final fight. Now I'm not trying to minimize Six's accomplishment in any way, I'm merely pointing out that the scenario leading up to and for her final fight and the scenario leading up to and for Chief's fight for the Ascendant Justice are completely different.

Also, what height was the Minor on Gamma station? Described as being a metre taller than John, which puts it in around 10ft tall. Of course he is going to struggle against something that is 10 ft tall. (Nylund does like his ridiculously tall Elites. Yes Xytan, I'm looking at you too.)


Um, I'm re-reading Fall of Reach and nowhere does it state that this Elite is ten feet tall. I don't know where you're getting this 10 ft. crap but its bull-blam!-.

  • 05.25.2011 12:19 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: ThePredkiller2
Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: OrderedComa
I wouldn't put much stock in Chief fight with the Minor on Gamma Station, because as I've said many, many, many times before, that was supposed to be the first time he had ever encountered an Elite and he didn't know how exactly to fight with one. That has since been retconned and it and should have been slightly rewritten other than just changing things having to do with it being the first time Elites were fought.

And again, the fight with the Elite on the Ascendant Justice is a completely different scenario. Chief has been fighting almost totally all by himself and almost completely non stop for several days, he was wounded with little to no treatment, no real rest, fought through the Flood, the Elite was higher ranking one and was wielding a sword at close quarters, and Chief had others with him he had to be careful of (IE couldn't shoot at the Elite because he was afraid of hitting someone else). IIRC Halsey even states that it's a wonder he was still standing when they meet up again.

Six on the other hand, she had been fighting for quite a while, but there were breaks of several days between a lot of the fights she took part in, was at a UNSC held world as opposed to the middle of nowhere and would have gotten any wounds received treated properly, Six had at least one other Spartan with her almost every mission she took part in on Reach, her final fight with the Elites was out in the open and most of the Elites she killed she had gunned down, and she didn't have anyone else to watch out for besides enemies during her final fight. Now I'm not trying to minimize Six's accomplishment in any way, I'm merely pointing out that the scenario leading up to and for her final fight and the scenario leading up to and for Chief's fight for the Ascendant Justice are completely different.

Also, what height was the Minor on Gamma station? Described as being a metre taller than John, which puts it in around 10ft tall. Of course he is going to struggle against something that is 10 ft tall. (Nylund does like his ridiculously tall Elites. Yes Xytan, I'm looking at you too.)

Um, I'm re-reading Fall of Reach and nowhere does it state that this Elite is ten feet tall. I don't know where you're getting this 10 ft. crap but its bull-blam!-.

Page 313
It only took an instant for the image to fully register: a black film peeled away from the darkness. It was a meter taller than John and wore blue armour similar to that on Covenant warships.

I will accept that you perhaps cannot read properly and so missed that rather obvious fact, but I think you are at least competent enough to derive 10ft from the information given in that paragraph. If you cannot add properly either, then let me take you by the hand and walk you through it slowly:

John in Mjolnir is 7 ft.

One metre is roughly 3 ft.

The Elite is taller than John by one metre, therefore its height is 7+3 = 10.

Got it? Too hard? Do you want me to illustrate with a pretty little picture?

  • 05.25.2011 5:37 AM PDT
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Posted by: anton1792

John in Mjolnir is 7 ft.

One metre is roughly 3 ft.

The Elite is taller than John by one metre, therefore its height is 7+3 = 10.

Got it? Too hard? Do you want me to illustrate with a pretty little picture?


Winner by technical unit conversion and basic arithmetic knockout.

[Edited on 05.25.2011 12:13 PM PDT]

  • 05.25.2011 12:12 PM PDT

John was said to be the luckiest spartan

  • 05.25.2011 12:16 PM PDT

I think that people are forgetting one key difference between mc and 6, 6 was a spartan 3 and kicked as much ass as mc

  • 05.25.2011 3:15 PM PDT

Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: ThePredkiller2
Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: OrderedComa
I wouldn't put much stock in Chief fight with the Minor on Gamma Station, because as I've said many, many, many times before, that was supposed to be the first time he had ever encountered an Elite and he didn't know how exactly to fight with one. That has since been retconned and it and should have been slightly rewritten other than just changing things having to do with it being the first time Elites were fought.

And again, the fight with the Elite on the Ascendant Justice is a completely different scenario. Chief has been fighting almost totally all by himself and almost completely non stop for several days, he was wounded with little to no treatment, no real rest, fought through the Flood, the Elite was higher ranking one and was wielding a sword at close quarters, and Chief had others with him he had to be careful of (IE couldn't shoot at the Elite because he was afraid of hitting someone else). IIRC Halsey even states that it's a wonder he was still standing when they meet up again.

Six on the other hand, she had been fighting for quite a while, but there were breaks of several days between a lot of the fights she took part in, was at a UNSC held world as opposed to the middle of nowhere and would have gotten any wounds received treated properly, Six had at least one other Spartan with her almost every mission she took part in on Reach, her final fight with the Elites was out in the open and most of the Elites she killed she had gunned down, and she didn't have anyone else to watch out for besides enemies during her final fight. Now I'm not trying to minimize Six's accomplishment in any way, I'm merely pointing out that the scenario leading up to and for her final fight and the scenario leading up to and for Chief's fight for the Ascendant Justice are completely different.

Also, what height was the Minor on Gamma station? Described as being a metre taller than John, which puts it in around 10ft tall. Of course he is going to struggle against something that is 10 ft tall. (Nylund does like his ridiculously tall Elites. Yes Xytan, I'm looking at you too.)

Um, I'm re-reading Fall of Reach and nowhere does it state that this Elite is ten feet tall. I don't know where you're getting this 10 ft. crap but its bull-blam!-.

Page 313
It only took an instant for the image to fully register: a black film peeled away from the darkness. It was a meter taller than John and wore blue armour similar to that on Covenant warships.

I will accept that you perhaps cannot read properly and so missed that rather obvious fact, but I think you are at least competent enough to derive 10ft from the information given in that paragraph. If you cannot add properly either, then let me take you by the hand and walk you through it slowly:

John in Mjolnir is 7 ft.

One metre is roughly 3 ft.

The Elite is taller than John by one metre, therefore its height is 7+3 = 10.

Got it? Too hard? Do you want me to illustrate with a pretty little picture?

No, I don't need a -blam!- picture you -blam!- -blam!-, I was trying to peacefully argue my point but now you've ruined that. It was a beautiful day and then some -blam!- -blam!- it up. That is you. If you're going to talk to me like a child, then I will talk to you like one, and don't for a -blam!- second think you are above anyone, for any reason. You are not.

*Ahem*

~Walks out.~

  • 05.25.2011 4:37 PM PDT

In Soviet Russia you pilot many flying vehicles while Nikolai embarks on crazy journey of revenge filled with movie references....

In the books she said that he wasn't the strongest or the fastest, but he was the bravest and the luckiest, and in her opinion the best.

That's why they call him the best. He's the bravest and luckiest.

[Edited on 05.25.2011 4:45 PM PDT]

  • 05.25.2011 4:44 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: ThePredkiller2
I was trying to peacefully argue my point but now you've ruined that.

Argue peacefully?

If we go back and look at what you originally said to me:

Posted by: ThePredkiller2
Um, I'm re-reading Fall of Reach and nowhere does it state that this Elite is ten feet tall. I don't know where you're getting this 10 ft. crap but its bull-blam!-.

"I don't know where you're getting this 10 ft. crap but its bull-blam!-."

Your tone was adversarial, uncouth and bigoted. That is not the way to initiate any sort of polite conversation.

Posted by: ThePredkiller2
If you're going to talk to me like a child, then I will talk to you like one,

You are not really talking, just throwing around a lot of swear words and incoherent ramblings. Do not dish out what you cannot take back. And it is ironic to call me childish when the response you gave me was far from laudable. Had I been someone who genuinely got mixed up in their facts your response would be unsettling and embarrassing for them. You don't like it, so don't do it to other people. So take your internet balls of steel and shove them in someone else's face.

Posted by: ThePredkiller2
and don't for a -blam!- second think you are above anyone, for any reason. You are not.

The fact is that you were wrong. Not only that, in your arrogance you began insulting my intelligence and obviously felt it unnecessary to check your facts before doing so otherwise you would have realised you were wrong. I double checked that paragraph before posting originally, so I do not think I am above anyone in admitting that. It is clearly you with the superiority complex.

[Edited on 05.25.2011 7:41 PM PDT]

  • 05.25.2011 5:41 PM PDT

On Waypoint I'm rocketFox;
http://halo.xbox.com/forums/members/rocketfox/default.aspx

Old GTs; RebelRobot, Flamedude

I think the point is that with John as leader of a team of Spartans he becomes hyper lethal due to his excellent strategy and tactics and his teams respect for that, and that with his combination of good overall skills and uncanny luck he becomes hyper lethal.

Linda was the top S-II sniper; not hyper lethal. Kelly was the fastest; not hyper lethal. And so on and so on.


[Edited on 05.25.2011 6:02 PM PDT]

  • 05.25.2011 6:02 PM PDT


Posted by: flamedude
I think the point is that with John as leader of a team of Spartans he becomes hyper lethal


Simply conjecture. There is a single Spartan identified as being in that 'hyper lethal' rating. Six. There's only one other, amoung the collective 2's and 3's, that match that. God knows its not gonna be John. Saying that Kelly and Linda aren't hyper lethal is the same as saying John isn't. They don't mention who the other is.

Logic, however, tells you it cannot be John.

  • 05.25.2011 8:49 PM PDT

On Waypoint I'm rocketFox;
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Old GTs; RebelRobot, Flamedude

Posted by: forthnback
Posted by: flamedude
I think the point is that with John as leader of a team of Spartans he becomes hyper lethal


Simply conjecture. There is a single Spartan identified as being in that 'hyper lethal' rating. Six. There's only one other, amoung the collective 2's and 3's, that match that. God knows its not gonna be John. Saying that Kelly and Linda aren't hyper lethal is the same as saying John isn't. They don't mention who the other is.

Logic, however, tells you it cannot be John.


Well actually you've got the wrong end of the stick there. You are assuming many things; namely that there is only one specific type of "hyper lethal". Both John and six are hyper lethal, perhaps in different ways (team leader vs lone wolf) but both have one exceptional skill.

And you must be delusional if you think Halsey wasn't referencing John as the other hyper lethal Spartan. Cortana chose him for goodness sakes.

[Edited on 05.25.2011 9:22 PM PDT]

  • 05.25.2011 9:21 PM PDT


Posted by: flamedude
And you must be delusional if you think Halsey wasn't referencing John as the other hyper lethal Spartan. Cortana chose him for goodness sakes.


But how much of the choice was hers, and not the imprints of Halsey's favorite being John?

  • 05.25.2011 9:42 PM PDT
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Posted by: Nameless Oracle

Posted by: Dagnir
I was hoping not to get dragged into this....

It's not bias or opinion.

Overall he was/is the greatest spartan. Fact.

Yeah, it is an opinion not fact. As several people have repeated this entire thread John IS NOT the greatest. He is however among the them.

I don't think there can truly be a best spartan. Due to their extensive training, decades of experience and the unpredictableness(is that a word?) of warfare it'd be impossible to find a spartan who performs so much better than all the others in every situation that you can call one the best.



Dammit look what's happened now!

OK, I admit he wasn't the best at everything but he was good at everything, which is why I used the word 'overall', plus he was a tremendous leader...

...but on top of all these things it is his luck that makes him the greatest Spartan. With his luck he was/is capable of things that other Spartans couldn't dream of.

It's not opinion, it's fact, just accept you were wrong and rejoice in the glory of John 117!

  • 05.26.2011 3:43 AM PDT
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Master Chief is your favorite Spartan's favorite Spartan.

  • 05.26.2011 3:56 AM PDT