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This topic has moved here: Subject: Why does no one remember that John isn't an exceptional Spartan?
  • Subject: Why does no one remember that John isn't an exceptional Spartan?
Subject: Why does no one remember that John isn't an exceptional Spartan?


Posted by: a Hall Monitor
Kelly could out run him, but 117 is stronger and far more affective in combat.
Linda could out snipe him, if the sniper was the only weapon in this galactic war than you'd want Linda on ur side, 117 is more affective at gorilla style warfare and is more experienced on all weaponry.
Kurt could out lead him, yet 117 did more damage as a lone warrior, and was sent on more dangerous missions and the UNSC risked less Spartans.
Fred could out do 117 maybe on everything, BUT he lacked the drive and ambition to be the best, rendering him useless as the top Spartan.


A: No proof Chief is physically Stronger, or more effective in combat then Kelly.
B: Is a sniper not an expert at gorilla warfare? Hit and run tactics making them enemy spin in circles trying to locate you?
C: Chief wasn't sent on more dangerous missions. He was thrust into the CE events (And had trouble at that.) and then was one of the few Spartans left fighting.
D: Um... It is NEVER said Fred lacked Drive or Ambition. Just that he didn't care to be fawned over or be in the spotlight.

  • 05.27.2011 1:43 PM PDT

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Posted by: a Hall Monitor
I'm tired of all these new REACH kids saying how awesome and better Noble Six is compared to 117.

first off he's a Spartan 3, what that means boys and girls is that he is Smaller, Weaker, Less Experienced, Less Intelligent, Slower, Slower reflexes, compared to the Bigger, Faster, SMARTER, More Experienced, Better Reflexes Spartan 2s.
yeah I cap the word SMARTER, I know where that one was going!!!

second NobleSix got his Azz handed to him by a small unit of Covenant!! Chief would have slaughtered everyone on that last level. also remember NobleSix is not the only Hyper Lethal! Dr Halsey regarded 117 as the greatest Spartan.

what the Marines are to the ODSTs,
are what the ODSTs are to the Spartan 3s,
and what the Spartan 3s are to the Spartan 2s.


Spartan II's and III's share the same physical properties if you didn't know, so he is not Smaller, Weaker or Less Intelligent than a Spartan II. I could list the augmentations for both programs if you want to say otherwise. Also, this "Small unit" had a General, Ultra and Zealot among other Elites, I would want to see John fight those 7 Elites and survive, he'd probably would go down as well.

  • 05.27.2011 1:46 PM PDT


Posted by: RKOSNAKE

Posted by: a Hall Monitor
I'm tired of all these new REACH kids saying how awesome and better Noble Six is compared to 117.

first off he's a Spartan 3, what that means boys and girls is that he is Smaller, Weaker, Less Experienced, Less Intelligent, Slower, Slower reflexes, compared to the Bigger, Faster, SMARTER, More Experienced, Better Reflexes Spartan 2s.
yeah I cap the word SMARTER, I know where that one was going!!!

second NobleSix got his Azz handed to him by a small unit of Covenant!! Chief would have slaughtered everyone on that last level. also remember NobleSix is not the only Hyper Lethal! Dr Halsey regarded 117 as the greatest Spartan.

what the Marines are to the ODSTs,
are what the ODSTs are to the Spartan 3s,
and what the Spartan 3s are to the Spartan 2s.


Spartan II's and III's share the same physical properties if you didn't know, so he is not Smaller, Weaker or Less Intelligent than a Spartan II. I could list the augmentations for both programs if you want to say otherwise. Also, this "Small unit" had a General, Ultra and Zealot among other Elites, I would want to see John fight those 7 Elites and survive, he'd probably would go down as well.


Any Spartan would die there, in the same state of health and rest Six was at.

  • 05.27.2011 1:49 PM PDT

@accordingto343

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Posted by: a Hall Monitor
I'm tired of all these new REACH kids saying how awesome and better Noble Six is compared to 117.

first off he's a Spartan 3, what that means boys and girls is that he is Smaller, Weaker, Less Experienced, Less Intelligent, Slower, Slower reflexes, compared to the Bigger, Faster, SMARTER, More Experienced, Better Reflexes Spartan 2s.
yeah I cap the word SMARTER, I know where that one was going!!!

second NobleSix got his Azz handed to him by a small unit of Covenant!! Chief would have slaughtered everyone on that last level. also remember NobleSix is not the only Hyper Lethal! Dr Halsey regarded 117 as the greatest Spartan.

what the Marines are to the ODSTs,
are what the ODSTs are to the Spartan 3s,
and what the Spartan 3s are to the Spartan 2s.


Have you experienced anything other than the games? The Spartan-IIIs are an equal match, case in point the short duel between Holly and Kelly. Did Kelly come out on top? Yes, but look at it in the overall context. Holly was among the shortest Spartan-IIIs and even in the crappy SPI armor, she moved fast enough to counter several of Kelly's moves before being pushed back. Kelly even noted that despite not having the ability enhancing benefits of MJOLNIR, she still moved with superhuman speed. If it as a fight without any armor, it could go either way.

All of your other claims are woefully invalid and have no supporting proof. In fact, the Spartan-IIIs have something to S-IIs don't, the ability to keep fighting when they should be dead thanks to an illegal injection provided by Kurt. It would make them lose the ability to reason, but Kurt also provided a counter-injection to prevent that. Halsey was impressed with a Spartan-III named Dante who exhibited that during the Battle of Onyx.

Halsey never called Chief the best, she said he was the bravest and the luckiest. But every Spartan was brave and his luck was plot armor to keep him alive and profitable for the franchise.

Also, Chief wouldn't last long in Six's position before her death. Chief can barely handle one Major.

Try again.

  • 05.27.2011 3:53 PM PDT
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How is this even still a discussion?

In all media, Chief completes feats on par or better than all other Spartans.

He may not be "the best" as far as arbitrary metrics are concerned, but he certainly had the best career, best feats, etc.

It's really not even an argument.

  • 05.27.2011 6:13 PM PDT
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Posted by: Docterweegee
Master chief helped kill Osama (Snacks if you get this)


Oh, I remember reading something about Seal Team Six being related to Master Chief.

  • 05.27.2011 7:23 PM PDT


Posted by: MGTrey
How is this even still a discussion?

In all media, Chief completes feats on par or better than all other Spartans.

He may not be "the best" as far as arbitrary metrics are concerned, but he certainly had the best career, best feats, etc.

It's really not even an argument.


Hmmm...

I don't remember chief ever sniping... what was it, 7? Banshee pilots holding the sniper rifle one-handed while hanging upside from a rope tied to a catwalk, suspended in such a was he was completely invisible in plain sight.

Bam, just destroyed your "In all media, Chief = better then everybody else."

  • 05.27.2011 8:02 PM PDT
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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: MGTrey
How is this even still a discussion?

In all media, Chief completes feats on par or better than all other Spartans.

He may not be "the best" as far as arbitrary metrics are concerned, but he certainly had the best career, best feats, etc.

It's really not even an argument.


Hmmm...

I don't remember chief ever sniping... what was it, 7? Banshee pilots holding the sniper rifle one-handed while hanging upside from a rope tied to a catwalk, suspended in such a was he was completely invisible in plain sight.

Bam, just destroyed your "In all media, Chief = better then everybody else."


And Will fought a Hunter with his fists. But neither of them took out a Covenant cruiser by jumping out an airlock with a bomb and kicking into the heart of the superstructure.

Let's be for real. I don't even think another Spartan has even seen a member of the Flood. And the Chief fought against hordes of them, alone, multiple times without Cortana.

  • 05.28.2011 12:58 AM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."


Posted by: MGTrey

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: MGTrey
How is this even still a discussion?

In all media, Chief completes feats on par or better than all other Spartans.

He may not be "the best" as far as arbitrary metrics are concerned, but he certainly had the best career, best feats, etc.

It's really not even an argument.


Hmmm...

I don't remember chief ever sniping... what was it, 7? Banshee pilots holding the sniper rifle one-handed while hanging upside from a rope tied to a catwalk, suspended in such a was he was completely invisible in plain sight.

Bam, just destroyed your "In all media, Chief = better then everybody else."


And Will fought a Hunter with his fists. But neither of them took out a Covenant cruiser by jumping out an airlock with a bomb and kicking into the heart of the superstructure.

Let's be for real. I don't even think another Spartan has even seen a member of the Flood. And the Chief fought against hordes of them, alone, multiple times without Cortana.


Alice, Douglas and Jerome say hello.

  • 05.28.2011 1:05 AM PDT

Posted by: MGTrey

And Will fought a Hunter with his fists. But neither of them took out a Covenant cruiser by jumping out an airlock with a bomb and kicking into the heart of the superstructure.


So, wait, you don't find those two events (or feats) better then the chief's abilties?

My gosh... massive chief fanboy alert. Because Chief was in the right place at the right time, means other Spartans simply weren't as good?

  • 05.28.2011 2:13 AM PDT

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Posted by: MGTrey

And Will fought a Hunter with his fists. But neither of them took out a Covenant cruiser by jumping out an airlock with a bomb and kicking into the heart of the superstructure.


So, wait, you don't find those two events (or feats) better then the chief's abilties?

My gosh... massive chief fanboy alert. Because Chief was in the right place at the right time, means other Spartans simply weren't as good?


Exactly. Master Chief was in the right place, at the right time. That is where this "luck" bs comes in. Had any other SPARTAN been given a deactivated Covie bomb, an AI that can manipulate technology upon touch, and a passing Assault Carrier... what do you think they would do?

[Edited on 05.28.2011 5:19 AM PDT]

  • 05.28.2011 5:18 AM PDT

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Member Since Spring '04

All spartans are jack of all trades warriors, yes. But in this aspect, Chief was the best. If you aggregate all skill values (if there was such a list of all spartans' skills in each aspect) I'm sure the chief would have the highest combo. And by the way, when he snatched the coin out of the air, the big deal wasn't that he grabbed it, but that he knew what side it would be in his palm, meaning he could see the side or how many flips occured and had the reaction time to grab it when it would be a given side. Eagle.

  • 05.28.2011 5:51 AM PDT

"I came here to chew bubble gum and kick ass, and I'm all outta bubble gum."

Original Halo Fan

Member Since Spring '04

Furthermore, leadership relies on tactics. This means that John-117 had the best tactics, and that's why he was the only Spartan left to fight the Covenant in the first place. Perfect example, you say any other spartan could disarm that bomb with an AI and then blow up the passing enemy warship? Any other spartan might not have thought of that in the first place and might've simply disarmed the bomb and went away, or would reset the timer and throw it out the door hoping for a hit, whereas 117 had the courage to make sure the job was done right.

  • 05.28.2011 5:54 AM PDT
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  • 05.28.2011 7:03 AM PDT
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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Posted by: MGTrey

And Will fought a Hunter with his fists. But neither of them took out a Covenant cruiser by jumping out an airlock with a bomb and kicking into the heart of the superstructure.


So, wait, you don't find those two events (or feats) better then the chief's abilties?

My gosh... massive chief fanboy alert. Because Chief was in the right place at the right time, means other Spartans simply weren't as good?


You could argue the same way for Chief in those instances of Linda and Will. Chief does say something to the effect that those were impossible shots, but we don't know for sure he couldn't make those shots either. And we don't know for sure Chief couldn't fight a Hunter with his fists. Because just like you say, he was never in those situation.

I'm using the same exact argument you're using against Chief.

Chief didn't do those things, therefore Linda and Will are better Spartans? But Chief did way more impressive, singular acts, constantly throughout the trilogy (and even in the books)--many times without Cortana's assistance--and suddenly the defense "other Spartans weren't in his position" is a valid one?

Come on. It's not like the Chief was arbitrarily picked for saving the universe. He was the best for it all along. The rest of his squad died carrying out the same orders, Linda was clinically dead, and the remaining 20 or so were Helljumping to Reach without HEV pods.

He was the most brave. Had the best traits of a Spartan. Closest match with Cortana.

And apparently the most badass.

All levels of canon support these facts. He wasn't the best shot, or fastest runner, or strongest Spartan. He was just the best at being the best. Pretty much constantly. Even the books portrayed him as such.

And to answer your question, no, I don't think tying with a Hunter in CQC and sniping half a dozen Banshee pilots are greater feats than blowing up a goddamn Covenant superstructure. I find it funny how everyone's all "it was only because of Cortana" when all she did was arm and disarm the bomb. The difference in the Chief's balls and a regular Spartan's balls was how the Chief and Jorge handled similar situations.

[Edited on 05.28.2011 2:19 PM PDT]

  • 05.28.2011 2:15 PM PDT

master cheif only lived because noble 6 saved the pillar of autam sorry for spelling mistakes but if he didnt cheif would be dead to because he was in a cryo tube

  • 05.28.2011 4:19 PM PDT
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Posted by: kat5cam10
master cheif only lived because noble 6 saved the pillar of autam sorry for spelling mistakes but if he didnt cheif would be dead to because he was in a cryo tube


I already said that the Chief would have failed if not for key contributions from other characters.

The order of most influential character(s) to the UNSC's victory in the Human-Covenant War arc would go something like:

1a) Chief
1b) Cortana
3) Arbiter
4) Halsey
5a) J. Keyes
5b) Noble Team
7) Johnson
8) M. Keyes

[Edited on 05.28.2011 4:47 PM PDT]

  • 05.28.2011 4:25 PM PDT

Posted by: kat5cam10
master cheif only lived because noble 6 saved the pillar of autam sorry for spelling mistakes but if he didnt cheif would be dead to because he was in a cryo tube
People keep arguing this...


If your playing basketball and you pass the ball to your friend who makes the winning shot, should you be considered good or better than your friend because you were the one that got him the opportunity? No... cuz he made the shot, you only helped.

  • 05.28.2011 4:26 PM PDT

You could argue the same way for Chief in those instances of Linda and Will. Chief does say something to the effect that those were impossible shots, but we don't know for sure he couldn't make those shots either. And we don't know for sure Chief couldn't fight a Hunter with his fists. Because just like you say, he was never in those situation.

I'm using the same exact argument you're using against Chief.

Chief didn't do those things, therefore Linda and Will are better Spartans? But Chief did way more impressive, singular acts, constantly throughout the trilogy (and even in the books)--many times without Cortana's assistance--and suddenly the defense "other Spartans weren't in his position" is a valid one?

Come on. It's not like the Chief was arbitrarily picked for saving the universe. He was the best for it all along. The rest of his squad died carrying out the same orders, Linda was clinically dead, and the remaining 20 or so were Helljumping to Reach without HEV pods.

He was the most brave. Had the best traits of a Spartan. Closest match with Cortana.

And apparently the most badass.

All levels of canon support these facts. He wasn't the best shot, or fastest runner, or strongest Spartan. He was just the best at being the best. Pretty much constantly. Even the books portrayed him as such.

And to answer your question, no, I don't think tying with a Hunter in CQC and sniping half a dozen Banshee pilots are greater feats than blowing up a goddamn Covenant superstructure. I find it funny how everyone's all "it was only because of Cortana" when all she did was arm and disarm the bomb. The difference in the Chief's balls and a regular Spartan's balls was how the Chief and Jorge handled similar situations.

[Edited on 05.28.2011 2:19 PM PDT]



You can't be the best at being the best. You have one of the dumbest arguments I've heard about this. You are saying, "Oh well, its possible." Well, yeah, its possible for me to grab a knife from the kitchen and cut my balls off, doesn't mean it has or will ever happen. Chief will never come close to some of the feats other SPARTANS have done, the likewise goes for him. He is not "the best", only Halsey thought this. All of the SPARTANS were badasses, and all had their own qualities that MADE them bad-asses.

[Edited on 05.28.2011 5:56 PM PDT]

  • 05.28.2011 5:55 PM PDT

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: a Hall Monitor
I'm tired of all these new REACH kids saying how awesome and better Noble Six is compared to 117.

first off he's a Spartan 3, what that means boys and girls is that he is Smaller, Weaker, Less Experienced, Less Intelligent, Slower, Slower reflexes, compared to the Bigger, Faster, SMARTER, More Experienced, Better Reflexes Spartan 2s.
yeah I cap the word SMARTER, I know where that one was going!!!

second NobleSix got his Azz handed to him by a small unit of Covenant!! Chief would have slaughtered everyone on that last level. also remember NobleSix is not the only Hyper Lethal! Dr Halsey regarded 117 as the greatest Spartan.

what the Marines are to the ODSTs,
are what the ODSTs are to the Spartan 3s,
and what the Spartan 3s are to the Spartan 2s.


Have you experienced anything other than the games? The Spartan-IIIs are an equal match, case in point the short duel between Holly and Kelly. Did Kelly come out on top? Yes, but look at it in the overall context. Holly was among the shortest Spartan-IIIs and even in the crappy SPI armor, she moved fast enough to counter several of Kelly's moves before being pushed back. Kelly even noted that despite not having the ability enhancing benefits of MJOLNIR, she still moved with superhuman speed. If it as a fight without any armor, it could go either way.

All of your other claims are woefully invalid and have no supporting proof. In fact, the Spartan-IIIs have something to S-IIs don't, the ability to keep fighting when they should be dead thanks to an illegal injection provided by Kurt. It would make them lose the ability to reason, but Kurt also provided a counter-injection to prevent that. Halsey was impressed with a Spartan-III named Dante who exhibited that during the Battle of Onyx.

Halsey never called Chief the best, she said he was the bravest and the luckiest. But every Spartan was brave and his luck was plot armor to keep him alive and profitable for the franchise.

Also, Chief wouldn't last long in Six's position before her death. Chief can barely handle one Major.

Try again.



Lol. I can't believe I forgot about that.

  • 05.28.2011 5:56 PM PDT
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Posted by: ThePredkiller2

Well, yeah, its possible for me to grab a knife from the kitchen and cut my balls off, doesn't mean it has or will ever happen.


Thanks for co-signing my point. I'm sure if you read my post clearer you would see I was using their argument to show that the Chief could possibly do some of the feats other Spartans have shown. My aim was to show how ridiculous the whole premise is.

  • 05.28.2011 6:28 PM PDT


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Also, Chief wouldn't last long in Six's position before her death. Chief can barely handle one Major.


Except all the other Spartans wouldn't fair any better, this isn't some normal fight, this is a fight with Energy Swords, while a Spartan may be able to use them effectively, they're not going to be able to hold a candle to an Elite's skill with one, not matter how good or bad they are at close quarters combat. It's similar to giving a Samurai being given a Western broad sword and told to go fight a Western knight with it, he'll be able to use the sword, because a sword is basically a sword, they all handle rather similarly, but he won't fair very well against the knight because it's not the type sword he's used to.

  • 05.28.2011 7:11 PM PDT

Posted by: MGTrey

Posted by: ThePredkiller2

Well, yeah, its possible for me to grab a knife from the kitchen and cut my balls off, doesn't mean it has or will ever happen.


Thanks for co-signing my point. I'm sure if you read my post clearer you would see I was using their argument to show that the Chief could possibly do some of the feats other Spartans have shown. My aim was to show how ridiculous the whole premise is.


No -blam!-, of course he could do some of the things other SPARTANS have done, doesn't mean he would.

  • 05.29.2011 10:10 AM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Also, Chief wouldn't last long in Six's position before her death. Chief can barely handle one Major.


Except all the other Spartans wouldn't fair any better, this isn't some normal fight, this is a fight with Energy Swords, while a Spartan may be able to use them effectively, they're not going to be able to hold a candle to an Elite's skill with one, not matter how good or bad they are at close quarters combat. It's similar to giving a Samurai being given a Western broad sword and told to go fight a Western knight with it, he'll be able to use the sword, because a sword is basically a sword, they all handle rather similarly, but he won't fair very well against the knight because it's not the type sword he's used to.

Fair point. However, I think Cal-141 would do better than most Spartans in Six's situtation, she wiped the floor with that Brute during The Babysitter and only got killed because she protected O'Brien, while Chief nearly got killed by one.

  • 05.29.2011 10:22 AM PDT