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This topic has moved here: Subject: Why does no one remember that John isn't an exceptional Spartan?
  • Subject: Why does no one remember that John isn't an exceptional Spartan?
Subject: Why does no one remember that John isn't an exceptional Spartan?
  • gamertag: rok198
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Why are people saying that Cortana was the reason MC had done as well as he did through the trilogy, especially Halo CE? Cortana didn't do anything to enhance any of his abilities and choices. All Cortana really did was act as a commander for all the forces she had contact with. The Chief just went where Cortana pointed was a route towards the objective, like a GPS. Cortana's really only told the Chief where there was a possible entrance to a structure or how to get to an objective that was elevated. MC could still have done the job without Cortana in his helmet but with her at Keyes' side since she would just advise Keyes of anything she can find and that only thing harder for MC is that he wouldn't have someone telling him how to get around. The only part where I saw Cortana saving his life was by telling him it was safe to jump off the Truth and Reconciliation to escape the flood.

  • 07.07.2011 7:52 AM PDT


Posted by: ROK198
Why are people saying that Cortana was the reason MC had done as well as he did through the trilogy, especially Halo CE? Cortana didn't do anything to enhance any of his abilities and choices. All Cortana really did was act as a commander for all the forces she had contact with. The Chief just went where Cortana pointed was a route towards the objective, like a GPS. Cortana's really only told the Chief where there was a possible entrance to a structure or how to get to an objective that was elevated. MC could still have done the job without Cortana in his helmet but with her at Keyes' side since she would just advise Keyes of anything she can find and that only thing harder for MC is that he wouldn't have someone telling him how to get around. The only part where I saw Cortana saving his life was by telling him it was safe to jump off the Truth and Reconciliation to escape the flood.


False, Cortana actually improved his reaction times. She also saved his life and stopped chief from being a pawn. (When she overcharged the armor to kill the infection form, when she stopped chief from activating halo...)

Rok, have you read The Flood? Chief honestly was uneasy when he didn't have Cortana.

If Cortana wasn't around, Chief would have activated halo, if he even got that far.

  • 07.07.2011 9:13 AM PDT


Posted by: hotshot revan II
It's the true that Fred was always second,but then you guys assume he might be first because John assumed he didn't wanted any attention.That might be true but if we allow opinions then we can also allow the opinions of Halsey who considers John the best.


When did John Assume anything about his teammates? They were basically family. So yes, I'm fairly sure that if John went "Fred could have been first in every competition, he simply didn't want the attention" it's not an assumption.

Also,I doubt "fighting on the ground" is anywhere close to the reason Snake thinks Six is better. It was a simple fact, if John had gone to the ground, he would have died just like the others did. And if Fred went to the station, he would have gone to halo.

Also, the reason blue team wasn't mentioned is because Bungie couldn't think of a way to put them into the game without making it over-easy or just complicating the storyline. That's it.

  • 07.07.2011 9:20 AM PDT
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: hotshot revan II
It's the true that Fred was always second,but then you guys assume he might be first because John assumed he didn't wanted any attention.That might be true but if we allow opinions then we can also allow the opinions of Halsey who considers John the best.


When did John Assume anything about his teammates? They were basically family. So yes, I'm fairly sure that if John went "Fred could have been first in every competition, he simply didn't want the attention" it's not an assumption.

Also,I doubt "fighting on the ground" is anywhere close to the reason Snake thinks Six is better. It was a simple fact, if John had gone to the ground, he would have died just like the others did. And if Fred went to the station, he would have gone to halo.

Also, the reason blue team wasn't mentioned is because Bungie couldn't think of a way to put them into the game without making it over-easy or just complicating the storyline. That's it.


-He always came in second in all the contests.John thought he could have come in first,but he just didn't liked the attention.

Fact:He was always second
Assumptions on Johns part:He could have been second

-He said that Six is better then Chief because Chief would have died if he fought on ground.And how are you so sure that Fred won't have the same fate as James and Linda?Because he takes Johns role?Then why do you assume he would die if he takes Freds place.

It's all assumptions Fred could have went to Halo or he could have been killed in that station,John could die on Reach or he could have fled in those cavers.All assumptions.

-Same with that vidoc,what's the point of talknig about a Spartan who isn't even known among most of us.
John didn't even asked about Blue teams whereabouts in Halo 3 to Hood .

I would bet my life that it's John,you know how Bungie thinks.

  • 07.07.2011 9:47 AM PDT

I spoke to God today. He said trust in Him. All others pay cash


Posted by: paulmarv
Although I'm sure the very source you cite goes on to say the exact same thing, no matter what one part of canon you want to read from, the Halo Trilogy and the entirety of the true canon necessitate that Master Chief was the "bravest" and most well-rounded, and therefore the best.


This. It isnt about who has the best specialty skill. Just because linda is a better sniper doesnt mean that over all she is a better spartan.

John may not have been the best at everything but he was the best at being a well rounded spartan, hence making him the best. Do you honestly believe that any other spartan could have been put in the same exact position as John and done just as well?

  • 07.07.2011 9:50 AM PDT

perhaps its just the fact that noone cares that he isnt the best at everything but the fact that he is average makes him more than just a spartan, people can easily relate to people who are like them "average".
by the shear fact he could save the world from an invasion means that any average person can be a hero.

case closed, noone cares because it isnt what he's known for

  • 07.07.2011 9:59 AM PDT


Posted by: Combat Form

Posted by: paulmarv
Although I'm sure the very source you cite goes on to say the exact same thing, no matter what one part of canon you want to read from, the Halo Trilogy and the entirety of the true canon necessitate that Master Chief was the "bravest" and most well-rounded, and therefore the best.


This. It isnt about who has the best specialty skill. Just because linda is a better sniper doesnt mean that over all she is a better spartan.

John may not have been the best at everything but he was the best at being a well rounded spartan, hence making him the best. Do you honestly believe that any other spartan could have been put in the same exact position as John and done just as well?


Yes I do. Some would do worse, some just the same, some BETTER.

Also, If John had gone to the ground, who knows. But A: He wouldn't be able to be extracted. So therefore, he couldn't be taken to halo. Also, again, that's just a small reason. Snake has never stated that to be the sole factor.

Final thing for this post, why would I take John's comment over Halseys? John did not have a bias she did.

  • 07.07.2011 9:59 AM PDT

Making John seem not so special in the books was probably done on purpose.

I'm not going to get into a debate about who the best Spartan is but the things MC accomplished probably wouldn't have been replicated by other Spartans.

He might not be the best at this or that but remember the one thing he has that the rest lack. ;)

  • 07.07.2011 11:16 AM PDT


Posted by: Sakanade
Making John seem not so special in the books was probably done on purpose.

I'm not going to get into a debate about who the best Spartan is but the things MC accomplished probably wouldn't have been replicated by other Spartans.

He might not be the best at this or that but remember the one thing he has that the rest lack. ;)


I prefer skill over luck any day. Skill means you produce the same results often. Luck cannot be trusted.

  • 07.07.2011 11:46 AM PDT

"What they don't knw Can't hurt Them

yea same here but it gives an edge.

  • 07.07.2011 11:48 AM PDT

John wasnt just good at being a leader, he had one thing all the other's didnt: Luck. And he was Halsey's personal choice for leader. Fred could have been leader but he didnt want to be. N6 wasnt as good as John. He was a Spartan 3 and therefore inferior when singular. The spartan 3's only worked to their true potential as a team.

  • 07.07.2011 11:56 AM PDT


Posted by: LifeLongGamer
John wasnt just good at being a leader, he had one thing all the other's didnt: Luck. And he was Halsey's personal choice for leader. Fred could have been leader but he didnt want to be. N6 wasnt as good as John. He was a Spartan 3 and therefore inferior when singular. The spartan 3's only worked to their true potential as a team.


Sigh, that debate has been done and killed. Spartan IIIs, when given the same opportunity as an S2, are equals. Again, how can you say no other spartan had luck? It's not a condition, it's not a skill. It's a completely RANDOM factor. Spartan 3's actually had better combat training. teamwork or not. Frankly, Six did what Master Chief couldn't, WITH AN ENTIRE TEAM.

And that would be completely wipe out terrorist orginzations and make entire militia groups disappear.

The two times I can remember of Chief+team going against rebel bases.

A: captured leader, blew the docking bay door. Overall damage to rebels? little.
B: Team nearly got captured or killed because CHIEF ignored Kurt's warning. If Kurt hadn't of hanged back, they would be gone.

edit: Not saying chief is bad, but Saying Noble Six sucks compared to him simply from the fact Six is a lone wolf is stupid massively to me.

[Edited on 07.07.2011 12:45 PM PDT]

  • 07.07.2011 12:41 PM PDT

Fight Finished 2007

Meanwhile the Chief was annihilating Covies around the galaxy... besides no, not all spartan 3s are as good b/c some of them have inferior genetics. Oh and Chief accomplished the destruction of Halo meanwhile we have all of Alpha being killed in one missions and almost all of Beta being killed in one mission.

  • 07.07.2011 12:47 PM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: LifeLongGamer
John wasnt just good at being a leader, he had one thing all the other's didnt: Luck. And he was Halsey's personal choice for leader. Fred could have been leader but he didnt want to be. N6 wasnt as good as John. He was a Spartan 3 and therefore inferior when singular. The spartan 3's only worked to their true potential as a team.


Sigh, that debate has been done and killed. Spartan IIIs, when given the same opportunity as an S2, are equals. Again, how can you say no other spartan had luck? It's not a condition, it's not a skill. It's a completely RANDOM factor. Spartan 3's actually had better combat training. teamwork or not. Frankly, Six did what Master Chief couldn't, WITH AN ENTIRE TEAM.

And that would be completely wipe out terrorist orginzations and make entire militia groups disappear.

The two times I can remember of Chief+team going against rebel bases.

A: captured leader, blew the docking bay door. Overall damage to rebels? little.
B: Team nearly got captured or killed because CHIEF ignored Kurt's warning. If Kurt hadn't of hanged back, they would be gone.

edit: Not saying chief is bad, but Saying Noble Six sucks compared to him simply from the fact Six is a lone wolf is stupid massively to me.
He didn't ignore it. He took note of it and was worried. However there is little to go and it wasn't enough to call off the mission. Kurt, while having a funny feeling, didn't investigate enough at the time. It was only a few seconds before bleu team was captured did he put on the red light. John saw this and knew he wouldn't do this unless it could jeopardize the mission. He called Blue Team to fall back but it was too late. Why the hell didn't Kurt take note of this before? He failed. He even knew he failed.

  • 07.07.2011 1:17 PM PDT


Posted by: Sparda Reborn
Meanwhile the Chief was annihilating Covies around the galaxy... besides no, not all spartan 3s are as good b/c some of them have inferior genetics. Oh and Chief accomplished the destruction of Halo meanwhile we have all of Alpha being killed in one missions and almost all of Beta being killed in one mission.


Way to skew things.

Sure, some might have slightly inferior genetics, but the augmentations yielded the same results across the board basically. So really it's a null point.

Oh, and Chief accomplished that WITH TROUBLE. While Alpha and Beta fought OVERWHELMING ODDS with No hope of escape. Let's look at it, Alpha fought off the Covenant for several days before being overrun, Beta fought so hard the Covenant had to bring in CRUISERS to defeat them.

Trust me, if John and crew had been placed there in the same situation, they would have DIED. Also, the Chief NEVER fought alone until Halo, and once he started fighting alone it took him a while to adjust.

Concerning Chief and kurt, he could have easily went "Okay guys, let's hold up and investigate the area more before securing the nukes." Instead he went for the nukes as I remember.

John is not a god. Spartan III's do not suck by default. I'm sick of people making these blind, dumb assumptions.

Edit: Oh, way to leave out a detail about those missions. The Spartan III's completed every objective.

[Edited on 07.07.2011 1:24 PM PDT]

  • 07.07.2011 1:22 PM PDT

Spartan R32

Remember Reach...


Posted by: forthnback
Yes, he was the only Spartan in place when the Autumn jumped. As such, he was the Spartan on hand to tackle the Halo rings. In Halo 2-3, Blue Team was sent away. Once again, he was the only Spartan on hand to spearhead the Delta Halo campaign, along with the Ark landing.

John saved the galaxy, and inspired Humanity as it's hero. Yes.

He's also, according to the novels, entirely mediocre as a Spartan. He is not the strongest, fastest, best marksmen, smartest, most agile, etc. He is average, in literally every regard. He is exceptional in only one regard, and that was leadership. He was one of four Spartan selected to be leaders (and even then, Kurt's team frequently outperformed John's team because Kurt was the better commander).

Bungie's stance, not mine, is that John is an average Spartan who excells at only one thing. Leadership. And he isn't even the best at that.

For those familiar with the definition of average, this means John was in the middle of his class as far as terms of abilities went. That means that 50% of the Spartans, roughly, would have performed as good as he did in Halo 1-3, if not better.

I really laugh at everyone who claims John is somehow a better warrior than Noble Six. Leader, absolutely. But N6 was declared to be one of two Spartans to have the hyper-lethal rating....and god knows it isn't going to be 'everyman' John.


Like the others, yhe were strong and swift and brave. A natural leader. But yhe had something they didn't. Something no one saw... but me. Can you guess? Luck.

  • 07.07.2011 1:24 PM PDT

Hey coma/snake/cobra/everybody else.

Care to take a guess how many times LUCK has been brought in to support being chief best with nothing else said? (Or kinda stupid stuff said)?

My bet is in the hundreds at least, thousand at most.

  • 07.07.2011 1:25 PM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Hey coma/snake/cobra/everybody else.

Care to take a guess how many times LUCK has been brought in to support being chief best with nothing else said? (Or kinda stupid stuff said)?

My bet is in the hundreds at least, thousand at most.

lol

over 9000

  • 07.07.2011 1:28 PM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Hey coma/snake/cobra/everybody else.

Care to take a guess how many times LUCK has been brought in to support being chief best with nothing else said? (Or kinda stupid stuff said)?

My bet is in the hundreds at least, thousand at most.


Yeah, probably a hundred times at least...I'm not going to go count 'em though :P How many times do you think the "IIs > IIIs" argument has come up?

  • 07.07.2011 1:33 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Over 9000 times.

  • 07.07.2011 1:33 PM PDT


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Hey coma/snake/cobra/everybody else.

Care to take a guess how many times LUCK has been brought in to support being chief best with nothing else said? (Or kinda stupid stuff said)?

My bet is in the hundreds at least, thousand at most.


Yeah, probably a hundred times at least...I'm not going to go count 'em though :P How many times do you think the "IIs > IIIs" argument has come up?


Going to go with "Way to damn much."

  • 07.07.2011 1:37 PM PDT

Reffering back to the the mission Lone Wolf on Halo: Reach, It wouldn't matter weather any other besides Noble 6 was their instead weather it be John, Linda, Fred, or any Spartan II or III the would have died regardless. That outcome was inevitable because Noble 6 wasn't going to be rescued he would have either died from
A) The overwhelming amount of Covenant.
B)Starvation
C) Due to The "Glassing" of the planet's surface.

But do not get me wrong I still believe that Master Chief is the superior soldier. Not only because of his capabilities and his achievements but because unlike Noble 6 he isn't "Expendable" as per Ackerson's goal in funding the Spartan III to make a cheap and expendable spartan. That John bears the burden of humanity on his shoulders and the if he dies the dwindling thread of humanity would be snipped, and he does not break under the pressure and continues to fight.

  • 07.07.2011 2:40 PM PDT

A lot of what you are saying is true, but it is an overstatement about how average he is. John has proven time and time again that he is quite above average, and is hinted at many times being better. He is also always associated with Luck, but then again he has Cortana and that may be the greatest weapon of all time.

  • 07.07.2011 3:05 PM PDT
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To end this just try and get Jason Jones to tell you how exceptional Master Chief is and we can then end this long argument with this topic, and to see Cmdr's final response.

  • 07.07.2011 6:44 PM PDT


Posted by: ROK198
To end this just try and get Jason Jones to tell you how exceptional Master Chief is and we can then end this long argument with this topic, and to see Cmdr's final response.


"We can't explain why we think he is best, so let's run to the writers and whine until they say 'He's the best, shoo!'"

Is what I get from that.

I don't mind people thinking he is the best, Coma for example. What I mind is when IDIOTS go "He's the best!" and fail to produce anything solid in reasoning. "Luck!" "Halo events!" "No other spartan could do what he did!" or outright attack me because I'm not a chief fanboy and I believe he is not the best, among the best? Sure.

Hence why Coma's the main person who views Chief as best that I can name who I respect. She says her views, gives her reasons, and respects my opinion and viewpoints about it.

  • 07.07.2011 7:00 PM PDT