Bungie Universe
This topic has moved here: Subject: Should Reach's fleet have retreated to Earth?
  • Subject: Should Reach's fleet have retreated to Earth?
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • of 4
Subject: Should Reach's fleet have retreated to Earth?

if only war were so simple...was thinking about letting the Covenant land tons of troops and begin glassing, then detonate a NOVA in atmosphere, pretty much junking the entire planet. it falls right in line with scorched Earth, humans were loosing, period, desperate times call for desperate solutions, think of the psychological effects as well, if it happened to world after world that the Covenant encountered, they begin glassing and BOOM! half their ships, vast armies and most of the planet are wiped out, that would damage them hugely psychologically!

  • 06.01.2011 3:10 PM PDT


Posted by: PLUT0NIUM 235
if only war were so simple...was thinking about letting the Covenant land tons of troops and begin glassing, then detonate a NOVA in atmosphere, pretty much junking the entire planet. it falls right in line with scorched Earth, humans were loosing, period, desperate times call for desperate solutions, think of the psychological effects as well, if it happened to world after world that the Covenant encountered, they begin glassing and BOOM! half their ships, vast armies and most of the planet are wiped out, that would damage them hugely psychologically!


Maybe, but then you'd have an even greater one with humans.

Instead of a chance for terraforming and recolonizing the planet, it's completely gone :P.

  • 06.01.2011 3:18 PM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: PLUT0NIUM 235
if only war were so simple...was thinking about letting the Covenant land tons of troops and begin glassing, then detonate a NOVA in atmosphere, pretty much junking the entire planet. it falls right in line with scorched Earth, humans were loosing, period, desperate times call for desperate solutions, think of the psychological effects as well, if it happened to world after world that the Covenant encountered, they begin glassing and BOOM! half their ships, vast armies and most of the planet are wiped out, that would damage them hugely psychologically!


Extremely doubtful. They've sustained massive losses before during major campaigns and battles (Psi Serpentis, Unyielding Hierophant, Reach, Joyous Exultation) , and it hardly deterred their military strength and will. The amount of resources they've committed towards glassing planets that weren't of great importance isn't that massive either (Sigma Octanus, 24 ships). If anything it would be wasteful for the UNSC to just outright blow up their own planets one by one and further cripple UNSC morale. When the only defense against an unstoppable alien alliance with vast amounts of resources under their belt at home is blowing up your own planets for them, the only thing that's happening is basically instilling a sense of hopelessness among UNSC troops.

  • 06.01.2011 3:26 PM PDT


Posted by: boogerman77
jump is nearly imidiate for both but they get to the destination many many times faster and they cant get somewhere before us even if we blind jump, they can track us somehow.


play the first level of halo 1.

Wrong, right, wrong.
It is not instantanious. It can take long, long amounts of time for splispace jumps across vast distances, although far less so for the covenant compared to the UNSC.

And they can't 'still track us somehow', they track us the exact same way. There is no difference between a blind jump and an aimed jump.

  • 06.01.2011 4:28 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Time to chime in..

Essentially, from a military stand point, If the WHOLE fleet returned to earth, then they would have put up a superior fight.

Earths defenses are incredibly high, with stations like cairo throughout. The Fleet would have HUGE MAC support, its likely even, they could have won. Earths Space fleet could hold off the covies from attacking the planet and her defenses, as well, earths defenses would have the cover necessary to tear a new -blam!- in the CCS ships. I'd say, if the battle took place at earth.. ... human might have won.

However, ALL of Reach would be lost instantly, Dr. Halsy likely killed, Civilians completely lost. But no guarantee spartan would be killed cuz spartans are resourceful.

For all we Know, MC would have been woken up on reach and planned an invasion on a CCS ship, and Him with team noble could take over the CCS ship and retreat to earth. Other spartans with same idea would follow suit.

too many variables. But I think if the battle took place at earth, Definite bonus for humans. Covies were heading there anyways.

  • 06.01.2011 5:05 PM PDT

I enjoy halo for it's story and when I am in the mood, its gameplay. Reach was significantly worse then I expected but was still a great game (minus the european hitscan fiasco). I am sitting on a two mile wide fence on the subject of halo 4. Most of the things I like a technical aspects though and not story or game play. Plus I am slightly mad they took my elites from MP.

which type of blind jump are you referring too?

A) cole protocol (can't go straight home). you are correct!

B) taking heavy damage, aim for any place long distance in a sphererical jump radius. come out of slipspace using rough co-ordanites and continue with situation A. sort of correct.. Depends on the situation and how intuitive the captain and his/her crew are.

And no. Reach should have been better protected then earth. It was a tactical fail to give Reach twenty ODP/S-MAC when earth had 200/300 of them.

  • 06.01.2011 5:11 PM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: IXI ZeroExE IXI
Time to chime in..

Essentially, from a military stand point, If the WHOLE fleet returned to earth, then they would have put up a superior fight.

Earths defenses are incredibly high, with stations like cairo throughout. The Fleet would have HUGE MAC support, its likely even, they could have won. Earths Space fleet could hold off the covies from attacking the planet and her defenses, as well, earths defenses would have the cover necessary to tear a new -blam!- in the CCS ships. I'd say, if the battle took place at earth.. ... human might have won.

However, ALL of Reach would be lost instantly, Dr. Halsy likely killed, Civilians completely lost. But no guarantee spartan would be killed cuz spartans are resourceful.

For all we Know, MC would have been woken up on reach and planned an invasion on a CCS ship, and Him with team noble could take over the CCS ship and retreat to earth. Other spartans with same idea would follow suit.

too many variables. But I think if the battle took place at earth, Definite bonus for humans. Covies were heading there anyways.


Concentrating all defenses at Earth would be a terrible gamble with favor going to the Covenant. The issue with humanity is time. The battle of Reach, despite being a tactical defeat, was a strategic victory in the sense that it set into motion and bought enough time for the Covenant Civil War to break out. Were it not for the destruction of the Unyielding Hierophant fleet, Halo, losses inflicted on the fleet attacking Reach itself, and the rise of the Great Schism then Earth would be properly screwed.

Having the entire fleet pull back from Reach give that up to consolidate defenses would be basically putting all the eggs in one basket. A basket that is relatively easy to snatch. The reason for that would be that the UNSC would no longer have the resources for a counter attack whilst the Covenant still have an abundance of resources, man power, ships, and vehicles.

Could humanity stave off an incredibly large assault force from the Covenant? I'd say absolutely. Does humanity have the means to quickly rebuild its forces and strike back at the Covenant in any capacity afterwards? Not one bit. ONI already knew that well ahead of time which was why Operation: Red Flag and all the major SIII deployments before that were conceived of to begin with. Humanity was in absolutely no position to stay in the war for another year because they now lacked the facilities and time to rebuild its armed forces and strike back offensively. Between Reach and the various facilities in the Sol system there was nothing left to build and maintain a war machine that can go toe to toe with the Covenant any longer.

Their only hope of winning the war is with a precise operation deep in Covenant territory that would shake things up enough to end the war right then and there despite how well it's going for the Covenant. Hence Red Flag. Till then of course humanity would have to hold out until such a plan succeeded.

That's why having Reach was too important to just give it up without a fight. It's either toss it aside and automatically accept the final stand at Earth is now closer than ever, or at least fight for Reach and put up a shot of maintaining hold of a major strategic asset until good fortune comes their way.

It's a stroke of sheer luck that Halo was discovered and destroyed when it was once Red Flag went belly up.

  • 06.01.2011 5:30 PM PDT

Bungie Pentathlon - who actually cares ?


Posted by: StealthSlasher2

Posted by: IXI ZeroExE IXI
Time to chime in..

Essentially, from a military stand point, If the WHOLE fleet returned to earth, then they would have put up a superior fight.

Earths defenses are incredibly high, with stations like cairo throughout. The Fleet would have HUGE MAC support, its likely even, they could have won. Earths Space fleet could hold off the covies from attacking the planet and her defenses, as well, earths defenses would have the cover necessary to tear a new -blam!- in the CCS ships. I'd say, if the battle took place at earth.. ... human might have won.

However, ALL of Reach would be lost instantly, Dr. Halsy likely killed, Civilians completely lost. But no guarantee spartan would be killed cuz spartans are resourceful.

For all we Know, MC would have been woken up on reach and planned an invasion on a CCS ship, and Him with team noble could take over the CCS ship and retreat to earth. Other spartans with same idea would follow suit.

too many variables. But I think if the battle took place at earth, Definite bonus for humans. Covies were heading there anyways.


Concentrating all defenses at Earth would be a terrible gamble with favor going to the Covenant. The issue with humanity is time. The battle of Reach, despite being a tactical defeat, was a strategic victory in the sense that it set into motion and bought enough time for the Covenant Civil War to break out. Were it not for the destruction of the Unyielding Hierophant fleet, Halo, losses inflicted on the fleet attacking Reach itself, and the rise of the Great Schism then Earth would be properly screwed.

Having the entire fleet pull back from Reach give that up to consolidate defenses would be basically putting all the eggs in one basket. A basket that is relatively easy to snatch. The reason for that would be that the UNSC would no longer have the resources for a counter attack whilst the Covenant still have an abundance of resources, man power, ships, and vehicles.

Could humanity stave off an incredibly large assault force from the Covenant? I'd say absolutely. Does humanity have the means to quickly rebuild its forces and strike back at the Covenant in any capacity afterwards? Not one bit. ONI already knew that well ahead of time which was why Operation: Red Flag and all the major SIII deployments before that were conceived of to begin with. Humanity was in absolutely no position to stay in the war for another year because they now lacked the facilities and time to rebuild its armed forces and strike back offensively. Between Reach and the various facilities in the Sol system there was nothing left to build and maintain a war machine that can go toe to toe with the Covenant any longer.

Their only hope of winning the war is with a precise operation deep in Covenant territory that would shake things up enough to end the war right then and there despite how well it's going for the Covenant. Hence Red Flag. Till then of course humanity would have to hold out until such a plan succeeded.

That's why having Reach was too important to just give it up without a fight. It's either toss it aside and automatically accept the final stand at Earth is now closer than ever, or at least fight for Reach and put up a shot of maintaining hold of a major strategic asset until good fortune comes their way.

It's a stroke of sheer luck that Halo was discovered and destroyed when it was once Red Flag went belly up.


This is perhaps the most comprehensive and accurate answer to the question and would be pretty much what I would of written !

Mankind is resiliant, but the key factor in war (and sustaining it) is industry. Covenant had a bigger, stronger and more rapid industry - enabling them to recover from losses extremely easily.

  • 06.03.2011 12:59 AM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: Dustin 6047
Yes, but stopping the Covenant at delta halo was unnessecary, Delta halo was out of range of Earth. Alpha halo was the halo that covered Earth and we know this because Human slipspace jumps can't go very far and the Pillar of Autumn (a Human ship, obviously) was able to travel from Reach to Alpha halo in a single jump. During the first assault on Earth, if the Covenant took one Human prisoner onto Regret's carrier before leaving to Delta halo and in time activating that ring -obliterating the entire Covenant yet saving Humanity, then the Halo universe would be way less gloomy. No second assault on Earth costing billions of lives.


What does Delta Halo have to do with anything in regards to evacuating forces off of Reach and transferring them to Earth as soon as possible?

In any case, to avoid an engagement at Delta Halo, the UNSC would have to have the powers of foresight to know that Regret was heading to Delta Halo to activate them in the first place. You forget that the reason they chased Regret in the first place was because of the fact that they had the chance to put a stop to Regret. He was a high value target (the kind Red Flag was specifically tailored to target) with potential to yield extremely valuable intel as to how and why the Covenant suddenly appeared on Earth's doorstep so intent on landing in Africa having had no idea that it was their homeworld. Keyes' or anyone else for that matter had no way of knowing that chasing Regret would lead to Delta Halo.

By the way, letting the Covenant activate the Halos, even if Earth was excluded from its fire would be a terrible thing for humanity. There are still hold outs beyond the Sol system with some colonies completely untouched even considering that the Covenant fast tracked their way to both Reach and Earth without finding the many other colonies Captain Keyes speaks of when briefing the Spartans on their way back to Reach. There's no telling what havoc can be wrought on planets that could be potentially colonized as well if the local fauna were to be wiped out. Ecosystems will be in disarray among other things. Letting the Covenant purge the vast remains of the galaxy is not exactly an option here.

  • 06.03.2011 2:35 AM PDT

The covenant made a point to follow all the ships fleeing from reach. Most they burned before they could enter slipspace, but there were bound to be a couple that entered slipspace. In which case the covenant followed them, and burned them at their destination.

  • 06.03.2011 2:40 AM PDT

Posted by: StealthSlasher2

It's a stroke of sheer luck that Halo was discovered and destroyed when it was once Red Flag went belly up.


While it was certainly lucky, keep in mind the the covenants ultimate goal is to find the halo rings. They sent a giant fleet of 300+ ships not only to eradicate the humans from Reach, but also recover the artifacts it contained. Their decision to kill off all of humanity was from the very beginning spurred solely by the fact that humans were "desecrating" the forerunners artifacts. Their goal in recovering the artifacts of course being the discovery of a halo ring or 7, it was what the covenant were looking for since their inception, and it eventually led them to reach, which had the coordinates to halo, as halo: reach showed us.

So while it was certainly lucky that Dr. Halsey finally caught on to this pattern a month before reach fell and decided to research the artifact beneath sword base, the discovery of the coordinates to halo was inevitable, whether by the covenant or humanity. Now, if they had caught on to the whole "covenant aren't just killing us, they're killing us because were unknowingly sitting right on top of their sacred artifacts" thing 20 years earlier, humanity could have focused a lot more time and money on archeological manpower and discovered Halo well before the covenant did.

So luck played a big part, but I wouldn't say it was luck so much as it was humanity missing out on a big part of why the covenant were burning them. The clues, the motivations, and the reasoning was always there, it just didn't add up until the covenant decided to send a scouting party to check for artifacts on Reach, and Dr. Halsey just happened to be there. "Huh...they're after Sorvalds dig site...now that's odd..."

[Edited on 06.03.2011 2:57 AM PDT]

  • 06.03.2011 2:51 AM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: Wazooty
Posted by: StealthSlasher2

It's a stroke of sheer luck that Halo was discovered and destroyed when it was once Red Flag went belly up.


While it was certainly lucky, keep in mind the the covenants ultimate goal is to find the halo rings. They sent a giant fleet of 300+ ships not only to eradicate the humans from Reach, but also recover the artifacts it contained. Their decision to kill off all of humanity was from the very beginning spurred solely by the fact that humans were "desecrating" the forerunners artifacts. Their goal in recovering the artifacts of course being the discovery of a halo ring or 7, it was what the covenant were looking for since their inception, and it eventually led them to reach, which had the coordinates to halo, as halo: reach showed us.

So while it was certainly lucky that Dr. Halsey finally caught on to this pattern a month before reach fell and decided to research the artifact beneath sword base, the discovery of the coordinates to halo was inevitable, whether by the covenant or humanity. Now, if they had caught on to the whole "covenant aren't just killing us, they're killing us because were unknowingly sitting right on top of their sacred artifacts" thing 20 years earlier, humanity could have focused a lot more time and money on archeological manpower and discovered Halo well before the covenant did.

So luck played a big part, but I wouldn't say it was luck so much as it was humanity missing out on a big part of why the covenant were burning them. The clues, the motivations, and the reasoning was always there, it just didn't add up until the covenant decided to send a scouting party to check for artifacts on Reach, and Dr. Halsey just happened to be there. "Huh...they're after Sorvalds dig site...now that's odd..."


To the Covenant public the reason may have been that Humanity was desecrating Forerunner Artifacts, but we know from Contact Harvest that the war really kept going to cover up one hell of a religious lie.

While yes finding the rings were central to Covenant beliefs of the Great Journey, it still would not have mattered if Reach or any planet for that matter contained the location of any one ring. By the time the war started the objective was clear. Kill all humans.

Halsey's motivation for the Sword Base digsite and any other artifact wasn't to undermine Covenant motivations either. As she flatly states in the game, Humanity needed a game changer. They were technologically inferior to the Covenant, so the only way they can fight them back is with superior technology or a decisive strike (Red Flag) which is where the gamble with the sword base comes in. Halsey herself had no idea at the time what would come out of the research there, but her hope was that the information from this new alien group would lead to a discovery that would give humanity an edge in the war. Something that was left behind from a long gone civilization that humanity was meant to inherit. She had no way of knowing that discovery would be Halo, and that the way to use it to change the course of the war would be to destroy it at that particular point in the war.

The timing was what made it ultimately work out. Lets say humanity caught on to how important Halos were to the Covenant's religion. So in a bid to end the war they ransom it for a truce as the UNSC would likely be quite aware they stand no chance with their technology. Add to that all their victories so far have been pyrrhic ones. Not looking great long term as it is. Eventually the UNSC is forced to destroy Halo because the Covenant will not accept surrender. After all, the real purpose of the war conducted by the high prophets was to eradicate humanity regardless to preserve the Covenant by covering up humanities' connection to the Forerunners. Destroying a Halo then, would do nothing to stop the Covenant. More likely than not, it will drive them insane with religious fevor to annihilate humanity more than ever before they even touch another ring.

The Elites faith will still be strong. The Brutes as well. There will be nothing in place that would cause the Covenant to break up even if the humans tried to tell the truth because that faith has yet been unshaken to the core, and in spite of possibly destroying all the Halos humanity would still face the full wraith of the Covenant empire.

Not a very good scenario, and that's only from leaving the Flood completely out as a factor. No telling how chaotic things will be with them in play that early on.

Which going back to my original point was what made the original turn of events extremely lucky. After the war had dragged on for so long ties between races began to strain more particularly with the Brutes and Elites. Being chased by Thel to Halo, and then destroying Halo, not because of its religious significance, but to destroy the Flood help put forth the domino effect that would break the Covenant in two. From Thel's disgrace, his appointment as the Arbiter and his first mission, the Chief's discovery and destruction of Unyielding Hierophant and the fleet around it, the return of the survivors and their role in assassinating Regret, etc, etc, etc.

  • 06.03.2011 3:31 AM PDT

Sup? Welcome to my profile.
Havok Team and I will help bungie dominate the world. and eat cookies

if the UNSC were to evacuate there fleet back to earth, firstly the covenant could follow them to earth and the pillar of autumn wouldnt have made a blind jump to halo, even if they did go to halo while the rest of the fleet headed to earth's orbital defence grid, the covenant wouldnt follow the POA to be destroyed by the MC and that would mean a different outcome to the war which none of us could figure out, but we would have more that 1 spartan, we would have more spartans. but then a bigger enemy fleet, also ours would be bigger. also if (acording to reach) reach was to fall in a month just about, earth would have less time to prepare defences on humanity's last stand. so... lets think about this

  • 06.03.2011 3:50 AM PDT

  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • of 4