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Subject: Why does everyone think the prisoner survived

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at the end of cryptum, even born thinks that the prisoner survived the halo ring.HOW CAN THIS BE. isnt a precursor a life-form like everything else

  • 05.18.2011 7:13 PM PDT

Well if it hadn't survived they would have found it's remains when they arrived on that planet it was on(forgot the name)

  • 05.18.2011 7:15 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: IOU 720
at the end of cryptum, even born thinks that the prisoner survived the halo ring.HOW CAN THIS BE. isnt a precursor a life-form like everything else


Because MB took him with him, he is.will be the gravemind.

  • 05.18.2011 7:16 PM PDT

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idk, imean wasnt the fossil record messed up by the halos?
why would they expect to find a body

Posted by: Omanisat
Well if it hadn't survived they would have found it's remains when they arrived on that planet it was on(forgot the name)

  • 05.18.2011 7:18 PM PDT

It would only have been dead for around 50 years when Didact and Born arrived. It was Earth's fossile record that was muddied, when the Forerunners devolved the humans who survived their war.

  • 05.18.2011 7:21 PM PDT

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but the flood can control dead bodys, halo wouldnt be able to function to its pourpose if it left a body

  • 05.18.2011 7:23 PM PDT

The Halo effect destroys the victim's central nervous system, rendering the corpse unusable by the Flood.

  • 05.18.2011 7:26 PM PDT

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ahh

but how could he survive.i thought it was halo that broke it;s cage, therefore it must have been there when it fired

  • 05.18.2011 7:29 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: IOU 720
ahh

but how could he survive.i thought it was halo that broke it;s cage, therefore it must have been there when it fired


tuned to a different frequency, did you even read the book?



MB breaks the cage then teleports the thing to halo.

  • 05.18.2011 7:36 PM PDT

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i must have skimmed that part.But doesnt that imply that MB knows the concept behind precursor tech,something the forerunners didnt even know

  • 05.18.2011 7:40 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: IOU 720
i must have skimmed that part.But doesnt that imply that MB knows the concept behind precursor tech,something the forerunners didnt even know


Please re-read the book.

  • 05.18.2011 7:41 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: grey101
Posted by: IOU 720
at the end of cryptum, even born thinks that the prisoner survived the halo ring.HOW CAN THIS BE. isnt a precursor a life-form like everything else

Because MB took him with him, he is.will be the gravemind.

The Prisoner cannot be the beginning of the Gravemind. One of Dibbs posts in AJ's thread:

Posted by: dibbs089
Posted by: Spartan1065
I really just am not convinced that the prisoner and the Gravemind are the same being.
I have to agree. While the Captive may be absorbed by the Gravemind (still not quite sure how I feel about this), it is clear that the Gravemind existed prior to MB ever releasing the Captive.

From Terminal 3:D: We have the answer. We've built
Mendicant Bias. It's a contender
class [AI], unlike anything we've
ever achieved.

And we've observed a pattern it
can exploit.

The parasite has formed a Compound
Mind. When it reaches a certain
mass, the Mind is able to recoil its
disparate parts to create a
[tactical shield]. This is a simple
matter of mass preservation. The
thing has no compunction about
sacrificing parts of the whole. But
when the core of the Mind is
threatened, it reacts violently
and quickly.
Remember the timeline of the book. Going by the above quote, Bias was created specifically to combat the Gravemind, before Didact entered the cryptum. The Forerunner knew of the Gravemind's existence before MB turned on them; before the Captive could ever be released. While the possibility of the Captive being a part of the Gravemind is still open, he cannot possibly be the starting point for the Gravemind as one was already established well before his release.

  • 05.18.2011 7:52 PM PDT

"You dead yet? No? You will be!"

"How you like them pears? Guess what I mean by pears."

"I'm gonna rip off his partridge and kick him in the pear tree!"


Posted by: IOU 720
at the end of cryptum, even born thinks that the prisoner survived the halo ring.HOW CAN THIS BE. isnt a precursor a life-form like everything else

The Precursors were transentient meaning beyond sentience. The Halos were designed to kill all sentient life within radii. If the Precursors were beyond sentient the Halos had little to no effect.

  • 05.18.2011 7:55 PM PDT

Didact's Reprisal -
Now is the time of our unworlding
One final effort is all that remains
And I am not afraid
We shall fulfill our promise
We fight for the grace of the Mantle
And this time none of you will be left behind

The Halo 3 terminals describe Mendicant Bias being led astray by an extremely intelligent entity. That, and the Forerunners in Cryptum believe the prisoner escaped onboard the Halo.

  • 05.18.2011 10:26 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: grey101
Posted by: IOU 720
at the end of cryptum, even born thinks that the prisoner survived the halo ring.HOW CAN THIS BE. isnt a precursor a life-form like everything else

Because MB took him with him, he is.will be the gravemind.

The Prisoner cannot be the beginning of the Gravemind. One of Dibbs posts in AJ's thread:

Posted by: dibbs089
Posted by: Spartan1065
I really just am not convinced that the prisoner and the Gravemind are the same being.
I have to agree. While the Captive may be absorbed by the Gravemind (still not quite sure how I feel about this), it is clear that the Gravemind existed prior to MB ever releasing the Captive.

From Terminal 3:D: We have the answer. We've built
Mendicant Bias. It's a contender
class [AI], unlike anything we've
ever achieved.

And we've observed a pattern it
can exploit.

The parasite has formed a Compound
Mind. When it reaches a certain
mass, the Mind is able to recoil its
disparate parts to create a
[tactical shield]. This is a simple
matter of mass preservation. The
thing has no compunction about
sacrificing parts of the whole. But
when the core of the Mind is
threatened, it reacts violently
and quickly.
Remember the timeline of the book. Going by the above quote, Bias was created specifically to combat the Gravemind, before Didact entered the cryptum. The Forerunner knew of the Gravemind's existence before MB turned on them; before the Captive could ever be released. While the possibility of the Captive being a part of the Gravemind is still open, he cannot possibly be the starting point for the Gravemind as one was already established well before his release.


Good, i am open to his idea, but notice how it said compound mind without brackets.

then in the booklet the forerunners speak of graveminds without brackets also. So they could be two differant things with the compounds being our "proto gravminds".

just a thought

  • 05.19.2011 5:05 AM PDT


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: grey101
Posted by: IOU 720
at the end of cryptum, even born thinks that the prisoner survived the halo ring.HOW CAN THIS BE. isnt a precursor a life-form like everything else

Because MB took him with him, he is.will be the gravemind.

The Prisoner cannot be the beginning of the Gravemind. One of Dibbs posts in AJ's thread:

Posted by: dibbs089
Posted by: Spartan1065
I really just am not convinced that the prisoner and the Gravemind are the same being.
I have to agree. While the Captive may be absorbed by the Gravemind (still not quite sure how I feel about this), it is clear that the Gravemind existed prior to MB ever releasing the Captive.

From Terminal 3:D: We have the answer. We've built
Mendicant Bias. It's a contender
class [AI], unlike anything we've
ever achieved.

And we've observed a pattern it
can exploit.

The parasite has formed a Compound
Mind. When it reaches a certain
mass, the Mind is able to recoil its
disparate parts to create a
[tactical shield]. This is a simple
matter of mass preservation. The
thing has no compunction about
sacrificing parts of the whole. But
when the core of the Mind is
threatened, it reacts violently
and quickly.
Remember the timeline of the book. Going by the above quote, Bias was created specifically to combat the Gravemind, before Didact entered the cryptum. The Forerunner knew of the Gravemind's existence before MB turned on them; before the Captive could ever be released. While the possibility of the Captive being a part of the Gravemind is still open, he cannot possibly be the starting point for the Gravemind as one was already established well before his release.


And this point is laid moot by the fact Cryptum says MB was created to control the Halos, NOT to kill Gravemind. Born did expressly say in the beginning of the book a lot of what we understand in contemporary Halo fiction about the Forerunners to be muddled. I take this to mean Cryptum>Terminals in canon.

With that in mind, now remember the story where MB talks with the Gravemind for 43 years, the exact same number of years he spoke with the Prisoner in Cryptum. After he returns 43 years later with a Halo, he then says "I have a new master" right as he's blowing the -blam!- out of the Forerunner capitol. Why would he be working for the Flood if not for the Gravemind's sake?

Then consider both the Gravemind and the Precursors are transsetient beings, in the same catagory. Then, consider the very strong possibility MB's Halo might have been Halo Installation .05 based on his operating number.

At this point, of course, some won't be happy with speculation until its 100% obvious the Prisoner is the GM, so Cryptum 2 might give us more answers.

But then finally, consider this: from a story perspective, do we really need a second all powerful god-like entity antagonist? One was just fine. It would be way to much of a throwaway to randomly add in another enemy we have to deal with when we can't even finish off 1 and barely another. If we find in Halo 4 that now we need to find a way to kill off the Flood's Gravemind AND a Precursor, the Chief might as well hang up his helmet right there.

Besides, a lot of this theory's detractors seem to be under the impression the Prisoner still must look as he does in the book. Remember: when he's described is at least a thousand years before Cryptum. It seems likely somewhere between then and now, the Prisoner took full control over the Flood, using his transentient abilities to become the compound mind, and ultimately the Gravemind.

  • 05.19.2011 5:30 AM PDT


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: grey101
Posted by: IOU 720
at the end of cryptum, even born thinks that the prisoner survived the halo ring.HOW CAN THIS BE. isnt a precursor a life-form like everything else

Because MB took him with him, he is.will be the gravemind.

The Prisoner cannot be the beginning of the Gravemind. One of Dibbs posts in AJ's thread:

Posted by: dibbs089
Posted by: Spartan1065
I really just am not convinced that the prisoner and the Gravemind are the same being.
I have to agree. While the Captive may be absorbed by the Gravemind (still not quite sure how I feel about this), it is clear that the Gravemind existed prior to MB ever releasing the Captive.

From Terminal 3:D: We have the answer. We've built
Mendicant Bias. It's a contender
class [AI], unlike anything we've
ever achieved.

And we've observed a pattern it
can exploit.

The parasite has formed a Compound
Mind. When it reaches a certain
mass, the Mind is able to recoil its
disparate parts to create a
[tactical shield]. This is a simple
matter of mass preservation. The
thing has no compunction about
sacrificing parts of the whole. But
when the core of the Mind is
threatened, it reacts violently
and quickly.
Remember the timeline of the book. Going by the above quote, Bias was created specifically to combat the Gravemind, before Didact entered the cryptum. The Forerunner knew of the Gravemind's existence before MB turned on them; before the Captive could ever be released. While the possibility of the Captive being a part of the Gravemind is still open, he cannot possibly be the starting point for the Gravemind as one was already established well before his release.


That bit from the Terminals makes the Compound Mind, whatever it is, sound much more feral than the Gravemind ever did. It sounds more to me like something rather lacking in intelligence and relying more on instinct than anything else. Also, all the other intelligences for the Flood that we've seen have all been of the same sort as the blob thing Keyes was thrown in, and not mention that the big "mind" for the Flood in Halo Wars was not intelligent (or at least capable of speech, same as the blob in CE), all these points to me seem to indicate that there is only one Gravemind and that's the same one who came into being during the Forerunner/Flood Wars.

There is a lot of evidence to back up the theory of the Gravemind and the Prisoner being one and the very same.

  • 05.19.2011 8:32 AM PDT

Marine Sanders
Major 1st Division U.S.M.C.

You cannot exaggerate about the Marines. They are convinced to the point of arrogance, that they are the most ferocious fighters on earth- and the amusing thing about it is that they are.

I would really hate to be the odd man out on this one, but MB was a monitor like Guilty Spark. We met MB in Halo 2. He was captured/Corrupted by Gravemind. (In much the same way Cortana was nearly corrupted by Gravemind in Evolutions.)

  • 05.19.2011 8:37 AM PDT

Sangheili Major: "Brute ships. Staggered line! Shipmaster, they outnumber us, three-to-one!"

Rtas 'Vadum: "Then it is an even fight. All Cruisers, fire at will! Burn their mongrel hides!"

Posted by: Dustin The Wind
I would really hate to be the odd man out on this one, but MB was a monitor like Guilty Spark. We met MB in Halo 2. He was captured/Corrupted by Gravemind. (In much the same way Cortana was nearly corrupted by Gravemind in Evolutions.)


Err...I think you might be thinking of 2401 Penitent Tangent--if you mean the one we actually were able to see in Halo 2.
We never get to see Mendicant Bias in any of the games, however you can see him in Halo Legends.

[Edited on 05.19.2011 8:44 AM PDT]

  • 05.19.2011 8:43 AM PDT


Posted by: Dustin The Wind
I would really hate to be the odd man out on this one, but MB was a monitor like Guilty Spark. We met MB in Halo 2. He was captured/Corrupted by Gravemind. (In much the same way Cortana was nearly corrupted by Gravemind in Evolutions.)


I think you're slightly confusing Mendicant Bias and Penitent Tangent. 2401 Penitent Tangent is the monitor we saw in Halo 2 that was capture by the Gravemind.

Mendicant Bias was corrupted by the Gravemind, but he was persuaded through twisted logic to join the Gravemind in destroying the Forerunners. Bias was then defeated by another AI the Forerunner created and then broke into several pieces, one of which wound up on the Forerunner Dreadnought (Truth's ship) and the rest wound up at the Ark. Mendicant Bias is the one who speaks to you through the Terminals in Halo 3.

  • 05.19.2011 9:16 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: grey101
Posted by: IOU 720
at the end of cryptum, even born thinks that the prisoner survived the halo ring.HOW CAN THIS BE. isnt a precursor a life-form like everything else

Because MB took him with him, he is.will be the gravemind.

The Prisoner cannot be the beginning of the Gravemind. One of Dibbs posts in AJ's thread:

Posted by: dibbs089
Posted by: Spartan1065
I really just am not convinced that the prisoner and the Gravemind are the same being.
I have to agree. While the Captive may be absorbed by the Gravemind (still not quite sure how I feel about this), it is clear that the Gravemind existed prior to MB ever releasing the Captive.

From Terminal 3:D: We have the answer. We've built
Mendicant Bias. It's a contender
class [AI], unlike anything we've
ever achieved.

And we've observed a pattern it
can exploit.

The parasite has formed a Compound
Mind. When it reaches a certain
mass, the Mind is able to recoil its
disparate parts to create a
[tactical shield]. This is a simple
matter of mass preservation. The
thing has no compunction about
sacrificing parts of the whole. But
when the core of the Mind is
threatened, it reacts violently
and quickly.
Remember the timeline of the book. Going by the above quote, Bias was created specifically to combat the Gravemind, before Didact entered the cryptum. The Forerunner knew of the Gravemind's existence before MB turned on them; before the Captive could ever be released. While the possibility of the Captive being a part of the Gravemind is still open, he cannot possibly be the starting point for the Gravemind as one was already established well before his release.


That bit from the Terminals makes the Compound Mind, whatever it is, sound much more feral than the Gravemind ever did. It sounds more to me like something rather lacking in intelligence and relying more on instinct than anything else. Also, all the other intelligences for the Flood that we've seen have all been of the same sort as the blob thing Keyes was thrown in, and not mention that the big "mind" for the Flood in Halo Wars was not intelligent (or at least capable of speech, same as the blob in CE), all these points to me seem to indicate that there is only one Gravemind and that's the same one who came into being during the Forerunner/Flood Wars.

There is a lot of evidence to back up the theory of the Gravemind and the Prisoner being one and the very same.


To be honest i feel like the "true" graveminds are the "blobs that we have seen what 3 times now? I feel that had they fully developed that they would be the floods natural version of a gravemind.

I think the one we know is obviously the infected precursor thus it isn't of natural formation.

  • 05.19.2011 10:16 AM PDT


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: grey101
Posted by: IOU 720
at the end of cryptum, even born thinks that the prisoner survived the halo ring.HOW CAN THIS BE. isnt a precursor a life-form like everything else

Because MB took him with him, he is.will be the gravemind.

The Prisoner cannot be the beginning of the Gravemind. One of Dibbs posts in AJ's thread:

Posted by: dibbs089
Posted by: Spartan1065
I really just am not convinced that the prisoner and the Gravemind are the same being.
I have to agree. While the Captive may be absorbed by the Gravemind (still not quite sure how I feel about this), it is clear that the Gravemind existed prior to MB ever releasing the Captive.

From Terminal 3:D: We have the answer. We've built
Mendicant Bias. It's a contender
class [AI], unlike anything we've
ever achieved.

And we've observed a pattern it
can exploit.

The parasite has formed a Compound
Mind. When it reaches a certain
mass, the Mind is able to recoil its
disparate parts to create a
[tactical shield]. This is a simple
matter of mass preservation. The
thing has no compunction about
sacrificing parts of the whole. But
when the core of the Mind is
threatened, it reacts violently
and quickly.
Remember the timeline of the book. Going by the above quote, Bias was created specifically to combat the Gravemind, before Didact entered the cryptum. The Forerunner knew of the Gravemind's existence before MB turned on them; before the Captive could ever be released. While the possibility of the Captive being a part of the Gravemind is still open, he cannot possibly be the starting point for the Gravemind as one was already established well before his release.


That bit from the Terminals makes the Compound Mind, whatever it is, sound much more feral than the Gravemind ever did. It sounds more to me like something rather lacking in intelligence and relying more on instinct than anything else. Also, all the other intelligences for the Flood that we've seen have all been of the same sort as the blob thing Keyes was thrown in, and not mention that the big "mind" for the Flood in Halo Wars was not intelligent (or at least capable of speech, same as the blob in CE), all these points to me seem to indicate that there is only one Gravemind and that's the same one who came into being during the Forerunner/Flood Wars.

There is a lot of evidence to back up the theory of the Gravemind and the Prisoner being one and the very same.


To be honest i feel like the "true" graveminds are the "blobs that we have seen what 3 times now? I feel that had they fully developed that they would be the floods natural version of a gravemind.

I think the one we know is obviously the infected precursor thus it isn't of natural formation.


Kinda what I'm thinking, I don't see the other "Graveminds" we've seen as very intelligent. I mean they're not dumb, but they're definitely way out of the Gravemind's league, maybe the "Smart" vs "Dumb" AI would be the best way to describe it.

"This Gravemind is not a natural formation...someone must have built it." :P

  • 05.19.2011 1:13 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
And this point is laid moot by the fact Cryptum says MB was created to control the Halos, NOT to kill Gravemind.

Are they mutually exclusive? The Terminals tell of the Forerunner keeping the sprawling infections at bay whilst MB directly attacks the Gravemind.

Which means that it had to exist before MB's conversion and subsequent releasing of the Prisoner. [1]

The following does not make sense when you think about the Prisoner saying it:

LF.Xx.3273.> {~} are here to spread
[comforting news]. To let all the
living beings in this galaxy know
{~} are not alone in the {~} What in
that message could possibly be taken
as a source of concern?

Comforting news does not make one wish to end his/her own life. What message would the Prisoner wish to spread that would be comforting? All it said to the Didact was implications about revenge. Additionally, that "message" that the Gravemind is telling sounds sort of like saying "Oh Hey, by the way your not the only life forms in the universe" not "Our answer is at hand".

I mean it is clear that the being MB spoke to there, the one that he was told to destroy, had been around for some time and was directly involved with the war. Virtually all of the text in the terminals spoken by this being allude to prior struggles with the Forerunners before MB got there. The Prisoner was in a cage before MB set out.

Has it not occurred to you that the location of this conversation and the location of the Prisoner may in fact be different?

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
Born did expressly say in the beginning of the book a lot of what we understand in contemporary Halo fiction about the Forerunners to be muddled. I take this to mean Cryptum>Terminals in canon.

I hate these "get out of plot free" cards. It makes bothering with the storyline utterly pointless. What is true and what is irrelevant when entire plot points can be thrown to the wind?

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
With that in mind, now remember the story where MB talks with the Gravemind for 43 years, the exact same number of years he spoke with the Prisoner in Cryptum. After he returns 43 years later with a Halo, he then says "I have a new master" right as he's blowing the -blam!- out of the Forerunner capitol. Why would he be working for the Flood if not for the Gravemind's sake?

He will be working for the Gravemind's sake. MB serving the GM's will is not in doubt, but you are begging the question about the Gravemind-Precursor connection here.

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
Then consider both the Gravemind and the Precursors are transsetient beings, in the same catagory.

Source the Gravemind fact please.

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
Then, consider the very strong possibility MB's Halo might have been Halo Installation .05 based on his operating number.

Penitent Tangent describes 05 having [1.2?] trillion simulations and one actual. If it were the same ring then it would have 2 actual: One for Charum Hakkor and one for the main event.

Monitors appear to follow the base 7 exponents. 343 is 7^3; 2401 is 7^4. 032 does not fit this sequence.

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
But then finally, consider this: from a story perspective, do we really need a second all powerful god-like entity antagonist? One was just fine. It would be way to much of a throwaway to randomly add in another enemy we have to deal with when we can't even finish off 1 and barely another. If we find in Halo 4 that now we need to find a way to kill off the Flood's Gravemind AND a Precursor, the Chief might as well hang up his helmet right there.

Consequences are irrelevant. They really have no effect on the truth value of something.

  • 05.19.2011 3:21 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

^^^

didn't didact say MB was re-purposed in cryptum? Because all of this seems to happen AFTER he is done studying the flood.

And remember the rings we know of are most likely the second batch seeing how only MBs ring (cough cough) and another ring survived.

  • 05.20.2011 2:49 AM PDT

Vengeance only leads to an ongoing cycle of hatred.

Because we think it's the Gravemind.

  • 05.20.2011 3:33 AM PDT

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