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Subject: Why does everyone think the prisoner survived

^^^And thats why I said we should wait for the other 2 books. Cryptum threw a lot at us really fast; we have no clear interpretation of the Forerunner story quite yet.

Where in the terminals Medicant was created to kill Gravemind, he was the in Cryptum created a thousand years before then, to control and manage the Array project. In fact, killing the Flood is never even mentioned in Cryptum. All we know at this point, is that somewhere down the line, a test firing was commited at Hakor, which released the Prisoner, and then Bias betrayed the Forerunners 43 years later.

Come to think of it, the Flood isn't mentioned at all in the story outside of historical retellings regarding humanity. The only thing Didact says of Bias was that he was created to control the Halos.

I guess there's evidence for both sides, really, but I can't see the Prisoner NOT being the Mind simply because what is said in the Terminals is considered by Born to not be entirely accurate. And, based off of the current evidence, it just seems clear to me that the Prisoner=Gravemind concept was the intended concept Greg Bear was going for. And, it would make for a more ironic story, consistent with the concept Halo characters always end up fighting what they worship.

Try this: I don't look for the terminals as a primary source anymore for Forerunner information. If I could see any Cryptum evidence to suggest the two aren't the same (outside of the obvious appearance differences) then I'll consider other possibilities. As it is, I've read the book three times; I have never seen any evidence to suggest otherwise.

So either there is some supporting evidence regarding Prisoner=/=Gravemind, or we'll wait for the second book, under the impression Greg Bear will confirm he is the Gravemind.

  • 05.20.2011 5:33 AM PDT

Adepto In Meus Campester
Posted by: ParagonRenegade
You were totally and absolutely correct in every way, I don't know why we were arguing, you're so amazing I should never have doubted you.

Greg Bear is certainly the type of author that would give us crazy theories and major twists, but it's too concretely implied that the Prisoner survived.

We can't be sure if he's the Gravemind, or if the Precursors created the Flood; those are too obvious of theories for him not to capitalize with mind-boggling plot twists. However they might be true. 343 wants the players to speculate while waiting in anticipation for the next novel.

  • 05.20.2011 6:44 AM PDT

Posted by: anton1792
Are they mutually exclusive?


No, they're not mutually exclusive, the Terminals are vague as anything, so if Cryptum is a little different it should take authority, especially since it's supposed to be the purest account of the final days of the Forerunners.

Comforting news does not make one wish to end his/her own life. What message would the Prisoner wish to spread that would be comforting? All it said to the Didact was implications about revenge. Additionally, that "message" that the Gravemind is telling sounds sort of like saying "Oh Hey, by the way your not the only life forms in the universe" not "Our answer is at hand".

I mean it is clear that the being MB spoke to there, the one that he was told to destroy, had been around for some time and was directly involved with the war. Virtually all of the text in the terminals spoken by this being allude to prior struggles with the Forerunners before MB got there. The Prisoner was in a cage before MB set out.

Has it not occurred to you that the location of this conversation and the location of the Prisoner may in fact be different?


The Gravemind is a chronic liar, if he can get what he wants through deception then that's the road he'll take. He'd need logic (however much he perverted it) and words such as what was recorded in the Terminals.

Remember the Prisoner has been in that cage for quite a while now, he could be a living relic from the days of the Forerunner/Precursor War, or he could have even assimilated himself with the Flood as soon as he got out of the prison. Either case he would have information/memories of com batting the Forerunners.

Penitent Tangent describes 05 having [1.2?] trillion simulations and one actual. If it were the same ring then it would have 2 actual: One for Charum Hakkor and one for the main event.

Monitors appear to follow the base 7 exponents. 343 is 7^3; 2401 is 7^4. 032 does not fit this sequence.


A localized test firing does not fit the bill of what Tangent was talking about, he was talking about actually firing it to stop the Flood in tandem with the other six rings.

I don't think anyone has said that Bias is a Monitor, merely that he was given custody of Installation 05, and that's why he has 05 in front of his main number, to designate where his authority lies. Tangent is most likely the actual Monitor of 05, and Bias's presence would be much like the presence of a superior officer on another officer's ship in the U.S. Navy. The lower ranking officer is the one who "owns" the ship, but while the superior officer is there he remains in charge, regardless of who normally "owns" and commands the ship.

  • 05.20.2011 9:47 AM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

For the last time people only all of the older rings were destroyed save for MBs ring and another.

The batch we know of was already being constructed at the ark and was re-purposed for the current reason we know of.


Regardless on what your stance of the prisoner is you can not say the quotes the gravemind says fit and are more understandable now.

"I have listened through rock,and metal,and time"

That goes perfectly with the prisoner seeing how the humans and san shyuum had gone to it for hundreds of years (if not a good amount of time) asking it all these questions. Not to mention it was buried under the ground.


while we may not fully be sure what the link is, there is a link between the two.

  • 05.20.2011 9:54 AM PDT

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