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Subject: UNSC Defence - with hindsight...

Have you seen my mind anywhere? I seem to have lost it...

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I have seen you future

Posted by: UshotYerEyeOut
First off, the Spartan III program did not prove that everyone could be augmented. It was able to cast a wider net than the SII project, but it was still incredibly selective. SPI armor is not cheap. It is cheaper than MJOLNIR armor, which costs as much as a small starship. Gold is cheaper than platinum, but it's still really expensive.

Flechettes don't work because they absolutely wreck the inside of a barrel. The problem with gauss weaponry is the cooldown, so it isn't as useful in CQB. It is, as previously mentioned, expensive. You seem to think that it's just a metal tube filled with magnets. You forget that it needs a power source, and computers to fire the magnets at the right time. All of this needs to be light enough to be man-portable. That makes for an expensive weapon.

As for your self destructing ships and planets, it's going to kill morale if each planet and ship has a bomb that's just designed to kill it. Besides, think about terrorism, if a terrorist was able to detonate the bomb then they would wipe out the entire planet. Even if this is incredibly difficult, it can still wipe out morale.

Martial law is an excellent way to get riots and lose support of the population. You need to convince people to support you, not make them more scared of you then they are of the Covenant.

Drafts are unnecessary. You will have enough volunteers, and the UNSC's problem in the war wasn't having enough people, it was getting enough supplies. Full mobilization is a must, but drafting everyone in sight is not always the best option.

The reason the UNSC didn't use more biological weapons is that the UNSC had no way of knowing what type of viruses/bacteria would affect each Covenant species. It sounds like a good idea, but it would take a massive effort to pull off, and would be easily quarantined.

  • 05.20.2011 11:50 AM PDT

I really wish you guys would FULLY READ
[/u] what I'm saying. Points are being brought up to disagree with my plan that I already mentioned and explained.

SPI armor is expensive because of the cloaking tech. Not every soldier needs that. So ok, strip that out.

Marines carry a fusion pack (as in, more powerful than a nuclear reactor) around as standard equipment, so clearly not that expensive. I'd find it hard to believe that it couldn't power a gauss rifle. As for computing power to fire a gauss, it's not rocket surgery. All it has to do fire magnets in a sequence to propel a metal slug. the harder thing to compute would be targeting solutions at long ranges. That's physics and we already have computers that aid modern day snipers for long distances, and they fit in your hand.

Flachettes mess up RIFLED barrels. Smooth barrels are fine. See?

AGAIN turning Harvest into a Pearl Harbor would't be that hard. Prior to the attack, America was totally against going to war. Anti-government dissidents were all over. After, the armed services could barely keep up with all the volunteers. A draft probably wouldn't even be necessary for years. But we're talking bloody fighting for 25 years where no prisoners are taken. That will take it's toll. I hate to beat the WWII thing to death (I'm using it for example because it's the best analogue we have), but a draft did become necessary twards the end of WWII. Martial law was also declared in Hawaii, yet there were no riots.

Nukes are standard equipment on UNSC ships.

Cole Protocol:
5. In case of imminent capture by Covenant forces and boarders, all UNSC ships MUST self-destruct.
Violation of this directive will be considered an act of TREASON and pursuant to UNSC Military law articles JAG 845-P and JAG 7556-L, such violations are punishable by life imprisonment or execution.

We've already got orders to self destruct ships. Why not use a nuke that you've already got in your arsenal? Like I said, only when defeat is imminent would you detonate a nuke.

I do hear what your saying on the bioweapons. I wasn't planning to use them except on covenant homeworlds, but I wasn't specific, so I'll take that one.

[Edited on 05.20.2011 12:53 PM PDT]

  • 05.20.2011 12:10 PM PDT

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- Ground-based MAC stations to complement the orbital ones.

- Unmanned, minor orbital MAC stations. They would basically be disposable MAC stations that are essentially a ship-based MAC cannon with maneuverable capability, separated into groups, each group remote-controlled by a ground-based AI.

- Underground power stations for the orbital MACs.

- Marginalized crew for manned warships on planetary defense. Re-design the ships so that key locations such as the bridge and barracks are buried within the ship, similar to how the Covenant do it.

That's all I got for now.

  • 05.20.2011 12:20 PM PDT

Wake me when the jews are gone.

destroying the iroquis in sigma octanus

  • 05.20.2011 12:30 PM PDT

Actually, we can forget the martial law in my plan as something I'd do differently. The UNSC already had done that.

  • 05.20.2011 12:36 PM PDT

Have you seen my mind anywhere? I seem to have lost it...

0x0 x0x 0x0 000 000 x0x 000
x0x 0x0 0x0 0xx 000 0x0 000
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I have seen you future

Posted by: UshotYerEyeOut
Even if you are able to power the weapon, you still have the cool down, weight, size, and the simple cost of replacing all of the rifles in a military that spans a significant part of the orion arm.

The problems that led to flechettes becoming obsolete will still apply in 500 years. Thinner barrels means that they use less resources to create, and weigh less so they are easier for soldiers to carry around. Faster propellants are a must, since a higher velocity for the projectile means more kinetic energy, so more damage once it reaches its target. Flechettes would also become even more obsolete, since by the time of Halo ballistic projectiles are made out of tungsten. Tungsten is a superior to lead since it's denser and more rigid, but would also make flechettes tear out the inside of a barrel.

Drafting more soldiers still won't be necessary since the UNSC didn't have a manpower shortage, it had a resource and ship shortage. It may become necessary at some later point in the war, but just drafting everyone from 18 to 50 is overkill.

My point about self destruct was more aimed toward your mention of destroying populated planets, not ships already under the Cole protocol.

Posted by: Primo84
- Ground-based MAC stations to complement the orbital ones.

Ground based MAC stations are a bad idea for two reasons, both related to air resistance.

1) The friction between the air in the barrel and the projectile will cause the air to turn into plasma, causing the barrel to warp.

2) The air resistance on the way to orbit would slow down the round, less velocity -> less kinetic energy -> less damage.

  • 05.20.2011 12:51 PM PDT

My YouTube Channel
Bungiepedia Page

"Sometimes life gives you lemons, and then you have to say 'f**k the lemons' and bail."

If you're reading this, you need to stop stalking me. If you can't stop stalking me, you might as well go here.

Posted by: CTN 0452 9
Posted by: Primo84
- Ground-based MAC stations to complement the orbital ones.

Ground based MAC stations are a bad idea for two reasons, both related to air resistance.

1) The friction between the air in the barrel and the projectile will cause the air to turn into plasma, causing the barrel to warp.

2) The air resistance on the way to orbit would slow down the round, less velocity -> less kinetic energy -> less damage.
My face after reading that.

  • 05.20.2011 12:57 PM PDT

Weight of the weapon becomes less of an issue when you've got enhanced soldiers running around. I already covered that. The projectile being fired would be like a 9mm sized slug, so the weapon would not have to be that big. I already covered that.

A gauss hog fires a 12x130mm slug. A 9mm pistol sized slug would need a much smaller weapon, yet still have all the properties of a gauss. As for cooldown, the gauss hog fires as fast as the sniper rifle. Do you really need to go faster than that when you can start hitting targets a mile away or more?

Who said that the projectiles fired out of a shotgun absolutely positively have to be made of tungsten? Steel works just fine and would do the same thing. In fact, that's what they're made of now and pellets are made of tungsten right now.

The reasoning behind flachettes is the horrific wounds they cause. It would make a covie think twice before getting close.

Detonating a nuke on a planet where everyone is dead/dying and being turned into glass would make a difference? Yes, it would. The difference is that alot of covie would die. If it happens a few times, the covies will think twice.

War is psychological as much as it is anything else.

[Edited on 05.20.2011 1:09 PM PDT]

  • 05.20.2011 1:06 PM PDT
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@mojeda101 it's a good plan other than the Hitler part. Human navigation of slipspace is terrible. if you tried to jump out of system and jump back in, there's no telling where the Covie fleet has moved to and if all of the ships will stay in formation (which they won't).

  • 05.20.2011 1:17 PM PDT

Have you seen my mind anywhere? I seem to have lost it...

0x0 x0x 0x0 000 000 x0x 000
x0x 0x0 0x0 0xx 000 0x0 000
x0x x0x x00 0xx 0x0 x0x 0x0

I have seen you future

And I already explained why you can't augment everyone. The SIII augmentations would still only work for a tiny fraction of the population, just a larger tiny fraction than the SII project.

As for cooldown, not all encounters happen at ranges in excess of one mile. That is why most soldiers have assault rifles, not sniper rifles.

I already explained why tungsten is better than steel. It's denser and more rigid. It has better armor piercing qualities. As for horrific wounds, the covenant has shown it cares little for throwing away solders, and flachette wounds are a hell of a lot less scary than what plasma does (remember the elite on Jenkins' helmet cam?

By the time that the Covenant is glassing an area they have already pulled their troops out. Nukes would be much better used if they were used during the actual battle, not to kill the grunts who missed the phantom. Detonating the nuke before the covenant start glassing would cost you valuable evacuation time.

  • 05.20.2011 1:24 PM PDT

Sigh......

Flachettes are ARMOR PENETRATORS. As in, they are designed to PENETRATE ARMOR. They also leave the target with a face full of darts. Put that in a street sweeper. Give that to your guys as a secondary weapon for CQC. Pretty sure that's way worse than a plasma wound. Make sure you really know what you're talking about next time.

Most soldiers fire their assault rifles in single shot or burst mode. Why? Because an assault rifle dumps all it's ammo in around a second if you go crazy with full auto... most soldiers only carry 210 rounds. Do the math. In a real battle, you may not get that conveniently placed container full of ammo. Supply lines break down, mistakes happen, you sometimes don't get resupplied for days, even weeks.

And no, encounters do not only happen at range. Good thing I armed my troops with STREET SWEEPERS THEN HUH? A street sweeper in close quarters will make short work of whole GROUPS of targets.

More often than not the covenant DO NOT deploy ground troops at all. They just show up, destroy the defenses in space, and then glass the planet. There is no evac. No escape. AGAIN!!!!!!! (I think I've said this three times now....) this is a last resort IF YOU ARE GOING TO DIE ANYWAY!!!!

I can't make it any more clearer if I wrote it down on a piece of paper and staple gunned it to your forehead.

As for Spartan III's, no, not everyone can be augmented. Most can be. Pretty sure you couldn't if you already had some underlying major health issue. I might have to re-read that book. If you can't, I'd have my people figure out why and get to work. In the meantime, EMP will mess the covies up.

Either way though, augmented soldiers would be much, much more prolific, and I wouldn't throw them away in suicide attacks. If you can sneak 300 ground troops deep in covie territory, you can sneak in a huge f-ing bomb. Something like a R/L MOAB or thermobaric bomb. Why throw those men away? How much different would the war have been if there had been 600 more spartan 3's running around?

[Edited on 05.20.2011 2:29 PM PDT]

  • 05.20.2011 2:10 PM PDT

Cave Johnson here, we're done!

PS: If you are reading this comment while imagining my voice, don't panic. That's just a side effect of the testing.


Posted by: mojeda101
RotaryCookie gave me A lot of inspiration.

A fleet? Well I would focus mainly on Frigates, cheap, but are basically mobile MAC guns.


I like this idea, but the only downfall is having fleets embark on long term battles. If you can't manage to overwhelm a covenant fleet before the boarding and the seraph bombarding begins, an entire fleet of frigates would be screwed.

What would need to happen is instead of a an additional 300 or so frigates, make more along the lines of 250 frigates with 25 Halcyon class cruisers as back up and point defense. That could cut down on both damage taken by point defense attacks, and provide a final major "punch" by a heavy cruiser similar to that of the POA.

When it comes to the discussion of ground based SMAC's, it is not a bad concept, it just depends on what target we are hitting.

I would suggest a ground based defense platform grid surrounding the main SMAC orbital defense platfrom, each one having their own source of power and an additional back up power source feeding from the SMAC power. These defense platforms would be in air defense only, meaning any engaging ship that made it through orbit is going to get either destroyed or "roughed up" by the grid. It may cost a bit to maintain this grid and their barrels from warping, but it should be used only for defense. As for what kind of MAC round for the platform grid, I would go with the light frigate MAC round. Enough to do some serious damage to any engaging covenant ship.

That or supply some Onager like MAC cannons surrounding the perimiter of the base. To fend off incoming troops dropped by spirits or phantoms. They would feed off of the SMAC generators.

As for colonized non military planets. I would advise a plan to add some tactical nuclear based mines as last resort defense. Keep the covenant from glassing planets and suppressing evacuating ships.

I would also invest some time on searching for the fuel that the covenant are obsessively using. They are using highly volatile fuel source that is providing them with massive amounts of energy, if I can manage to cut down on their ability to harness this power by cutting off some of their supply lines, then I'll buy the UNSC some time. Like in the prologue of Ghosts of Onyx. But instead of damaging these stations with spartans, I would take away a portion of the nukes that we did have and use them specifically to cutting off areas like the asteroid in Ghosts of Onyx.

It might be beneficial on making "Bunker busting" missiles designed specifically to target the areas on covenant ships that fire plasma bombardments. If we can take out some of these areas we can reduce the covenant ships ability to do massive amounts of damage. This would be for city defenses only.

Not really much we can do other than overwhelm the covenant 3 to 1. Making a frigate fleet might just be the way to do that.

  • 05.20.2011 2:34 PM PDT

Have you seen my mind anywhere? I seem to have lost it...

0x0 x0x 0x0 000 000 x0x 000
x0x 0x0 0x0 0xx 000 0x0 000
x0x x0x x00 0xx 0x0 x0x 0x0

I have seen you future

Posted by: UshotYerEyeOut
I'm sorry, I thought you were on this forum for discussion.

You still haven't addressed the point that psychological warfare is useless against a society that doesn't care if it loses soldiers. It's especially useless against an army that arms their soldiers with weapons that can burn through you, your armor, and your vehicles.

The rate of fire of gauss weapons in the Halo universe means that they would only be useful in extreme long ranges like the sniper rifle, or conventional M-107. It would be inferior to covenant weapons, or UNSC weapons like the DMR/BR in mid range combat.

Arming you soldiers with gauss rifles and shotguns will become extremely heavy. This is still a problem, in case you still don't understand the limitations of augmentations that make it only work on a tiny fraction of the population. A slow soldier is a dead soldier.

Holding on to powerful weapons until the battle is lost is a waste of a weapon that could have helped you win.

There is another problem with the scenario you mentioned above, can you find it?

The Covenant hasn't landed any ground troops since all of the fighting happened in space. Instead of waiting for the Covenant to glass us (it's a slow process) we will just detonate a nuclear weapon killing us and any Covenant on the ground.

  • 05.20.2011 3:08 PM PDT

Posted by: Onyx81
@mojeda101 it's a good plan other than the Hitler part. Human navigation of slipspace is terrible. if you tried to jump out of system and jump back in, there's no telling where the Covie fleet has moved to and if all of the ships will stay in formation (which they won't).


By Hitler part you meant flanking the Covenant? If not, I would already have ships sent to the flank via regular travel once slipspace ruptures were detected. I must have their flank otherwise the plan would not hold out.

  • 05.20.2011 6:09 PM PDT

first of all i'd have at least 50 SMACs per system armed to the teeth with 100mm cannons and with a sabre team for each station to protect against boarding craft then have many ground based MACs that could fire at ships trying to land and drop troops add a few hundred frigates and the covies may win but only after at least 700 of there ships are burning ruble

  • 05.20.2011 6:45 PM PDT

Posted by: UshotYerEyeOut

Why your theories are good on paper they have some very practical problems.

First of all the idea of using long range gauss weapons. They are too long ranged and medium to close range combat is out with them. You mentioned using the "street sweepers," yes that would do well at close range, but what about medium range? Most engagements happen at medium ranges, which is what most assault rifles excel at. So why replace them? Not to mention the extraordinary cost of re-fitting every Marine, Trooper, Airman, and Seaman that were involved in ground combat.

For your idea of using nukes as a last ditch effort to kill as many as possible. I actually agree with this, but it should be kept very secret as to not hurt moral. If I was a Trooper, Marine, or even civilian trying to defend a place that was most likely going to be destroyed anyway by my own Commanders I would en essence go ahead and give up hope.

Now to augmentations and SPI armor. The augmentations, as mentioned before, are still only for a small amount of people. Its just a little bit more then the Spartan II gene pool, but compared to the total populas, its still very small. Now the SPI armor. It is still very expensive. Its too expensive to equip every soldier with it, especially if you want to re-equip all of their weapons as well, and on top of that putting NOVA bomb style weapons on every colony.

With these plans your going to bankrupt the UNSC. Even if a monetary system was demolished you would still probably run yourself out of resources.

Like I said, your plan looks good on paper, but is very unpractical.

  • 05.20.2011 6:56 PM PDT

Posted by: agent wash282
first of all i'd have at least 50 SMACs per system armed to the teeth with 100mm cannons and with a sabre team for each station to protect against boarding craft then have many ground based MACs that could fire at ships trying to land and drop troops add a few hundred frigates and the covies may win but only after at least 700 of there ships are burning ruble


Sabre's were new to the UNSC, not mass produced.

  • 05.20.2011 6:57 PM PDT

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