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This topic has moved here: Subject: Just what is so criminally wrong about Halo: Reach?
  • Subject: Just what is so criminally wrong about Halo: Reach?
Subject: Just what is so criminally wrong about Halo: Reach?
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.

I think this forum takes Halo a bit too seriously. While Caboose does raise some valid points, is it really necessary to complain about Noble's birthdays? The dates are never mentioned in game and don't affect the universe in any way.
This forum is meant to be about theorizing and expanding our knowledge about the Halo universe, do some numbers really ruin the entire game for you, turning Reach into an unplayable piece of garbage because of some minor errors?

[Edited on 05.19.2011 7:44 PM PDT]

  • 05.19.2011 7:35 PM PDT

Don't worry, you're still your mom's favorite Bnet member.

Posted by: privet caboose
Reach crapped on Canon, some people like to think it didn't by simply saying "Oh it was just bent a little."

Check out the "Unexplainable errors in the Reach canon" thread in the Top forum topics for more info.
That's all that needs to be said.

  • 05.19.2011 8:07 PM PDT

http://www.halo-forum.com


Posted by: Xd00999
I think this forum takes Halo a bit too seriously.

Say what? This forum is basically a load of people who take the Haloverse too seriouss.What do you expect?

While Caboose does raise some valid points, is it really necessary to complain about Noble's birthdays?
Yup. Although Caboose's argument has been answered, it is still important to make sure that all the elements of canon fit. The dates are never mentioned in game and don't affect the universe in any adverse way, however making the novels and games fit is paramount.

This forum is meant to be about theorizing and expanding our knowledge about the Halo universe, do some numbers really ruin the entire game for you

What numbers are you talking about? And yea, if they are wrong numbers they do ruin the integrity of the universe.

, turning Reach into an unplayable piece of garbage because of some minor errors?
So, you couldn't play Reach? Aw, pity. It worked fine on my xbox.

[Edited on 05.19.2011 8:26 PM PDT]

  • 05.19.2011 8:08 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Xd00999
We don't know the full extent of the Supercarrier's weapons. For all we know, the Supercarrier's armaments may be limited to just the projector and a bunch of point defense weapons. We also don't know the shield strength of the carrier. Judging by the size of the ship, they could have several massive power sources which are solely used for powering the shield.

It will have several times more surface area than an Assault Carrier, so more area for plasma turrets. With all that space, why would it have less weaponry than a smaller vessel? It should be able to dish out damage. However that does not make it invincible. With normal sort of shield strength, a SMAC round should nail it one, maybe two goes.

If its shields are that strong that Reach was defenceless to it then it is essentially unstoppable to most of what the UNSC could muster. If it has weaker weaponry then it should be able to attrition UNSC fleets. The Covenant have hundreds, they should be facerolling the UNSC.

That is why I think its size is garbage. If it is weak, then Reach must be pathetic. If it is too strong, then Halo becomes nothing more than a happy ending service. Supercarriers only used to be 5km long before.

Posted by: Xd00999
As for the nuclear weapons, I am sure the UNSC would be cautious about firing nukes in atmosphere and once the Supercarrier exited atmo it could have jumped out of range of the nukes and home fleet.

They never had reservations about it at Sigma Octanus. An entire city was levelled, whilst on reach it is in the middle of a deserted continent.

I don't see the home fleet not perusing and destroying it, unless they can't which then goes back to the above.^

Posted by: Xd00999
This forum is meant to be about theorizing

Theorizing relies upon details. That pretty much goes out of the window if said details are constantly in flux.

  • 05.19.2011 8:09 PM PDT

Reach should have been defended with 100 ships backed with 20 SMAC's.

  • 05.19.2011 8:50 PM PDT
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Retcons and poor storytelling.

  • 05.19.2011 9:40 PM PDT

Here's an example: According to the timeline, while Master Chief is testing out his new Mjolnir armour, the following has already happened.

*Noble Team is investigates Visegrad Relay and discovers Covenant forces.
*A Covenant corvette attacks ONI Sword Base.
*The UNSC begins a full scale assault on the Viery Territory.
*Covenant invasion of Reach is fully underway. 60% of the UNSC fleet is on route to Reach, the first battlegroup is set to enter the system in 48 hours.
*Covenant forces once again attack Sword Base and occupy the site. Dr. Halsey escapes capture by hiding under the facility.
*Noble Team destroys a Supercarrier just as a Covenant Fleet arrives above Reach.
*The Covenant fleet begins glassing targeted areas of Reach, and a battle breaks out in New Alexandria. New Alexandria is glassed.


I would have understood if Bungie had to change canon a bit since the book gave them freedom, but they strayed very far from canon and still told a poor story.



[Edited on 05.19.2011 10:52 PM PDT]

  • 05.19.2011 10:52 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

Posted by: xgeua
Here's an example: According to the timeline, while Master Chief is testing out his new Mjolnir armour, the following has already happened.

*Noble Team is investigates Visegrad Relay and discovers Covenant forces.
*A Covenant corvette attacks ONI Sword Base.
*The UNSC begins a full scale assault on the Viery Territory.
*Covenant invasion of Reach is fully underway. 60% of the UNSC fleet is on route to Reach, the first battlegroup is set to enter the system in 48 hours.
*Covenant forces once again attack Sword Base and occupy the site. Dr. Halsey escapes capture by hiding under the facility.
*Noble Team destroys a Supercarrier just as a Covenant Fleet arrives above Reach.
*The Covenant fleet begins glassing targeted areas of Reach, and a battle breaks out in New Alexandria. New Alexandria is glassed.


I would have understood if Bungie had to change canon a bit since the book gave them freedom, but they strayed very far from canon and still told a poor story.



John tested the Mark V in November 24 of 2551, Halo: Reach takes place from July to August of 2552. Know the story before you criticize it.

  • 05.19.2011 11:12 PM PDT

Canon is a word that gets thrown around far too bleeding much, look at Star Wars Canon as an example, the Canon disregards what is seen in the movies which are the 'supreme' Canon. so I think that common sense > Canon in most occasions where there are problems, like conflicting evidence between the two sources.

the only real problem with Reach campaign is how did the Long Night of Solace get their undetected, cloaking field or no cloaking field pretty sure it would have been noticed! it was like nothing ever seen in Halo before, it was 27KM long for crying out loud! doubt a fleet of ships would have been able to stop it, its like the Executor suddenly appearing right over Hoth or something in Star Wars, they'd be like 'WTF? where did that come from?!...' then they'd all die, horribly!

my advice would be, use your imagination to fix the problems in the 'canon' and stop treating it like gospel, all stories are alterable within the confines of their respective universes.

  • 05.20.2011 5:27 AM PDT

Adepto In Meus Campester
Posted by: ParagonRenegade
You were totally and absolutely correct in every way, I don't know why we were arguing, you're so amazing I should never have doubted you.

Timelines in Halo Reach are FUBAR.

The characters are soap opera cliches with no personality or interesting traits. The only one with even the most minor development was Jorge and he got killed off the earliest.

Pillar of Autumn landing on Reach. Cruisers are built out of atmosphere, for use out of atmosphere. There's a reason Keyes says in Halo CE "I'm going to try to land her. Send the orders to evacuate" (or something along those lines). It's because it can't land.

Noble team, despite their blandness, is given a hugely exaggerated importance in the story.

"Latchkey artifact" is never mentioned in the other games, despite it apparently being a major element from pre-CE canon. Its relevance was never discussed in CE while exploring Installation-04, which leads me to believe the entire idea was an ass-pull on the Reach writers' parts.

Carter is too old to be a S-III.

The majority of Noble team members are canonically dead before the events of Reach. Another major canon breach with no explanation.


Most of all, the reason is because, unlike previous Halos, Reach needs ass-pull excuses (i.e. Halsey's Journal) to justify its canon, whereas the other games fit together without clashing.

[Edited on 05.20.2011 6:41 AM PDT]

  • 05.20.2011 6:40 AM PDT

It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life.

Posted by: chickenlittle
Cheeto is the only one among you that doesn't suck.

Honestly, I think it improves canon. Everything in TFoR and First Strike can still happen, just over a more drawn out period of time that is realistic. A massive military campaign ending in 1 day? Hell no, Nylund was a retard for having it like that.
Other smaller colonies took months, even years to fall. And Reach was the best defended. Granted, the covenant brought a massive fleet, but I still don't think that Reach would have fallen in a single day. That's just ridiculous.

  • 05.20.2011 6:44 AM PDT

In my humble opinion, since Bungie created the Universe, what they say supersedes anything else, even if that source happens to be themselves.

In my not-so-humble opinion, I'm kind of tired of fans acting like they "own" the cannonical information. Get over yourselves, you have rights to nothing. Bungie gives us this stuff to enjoy, we're just lucky enough to experience it.

Besides, at the end of the day, it's just a flippin game!

  • 05.20.2011 7:34 AM PDT

It is possible to commit no errors and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life.

Posted by: chickenlittle
Cheeto is the only one among you that doesn't suck.

Still, if, in the next Batman movie, they make Bruce Wayne touch little boys and fight in a pink suit and become an astronaut, you'd be a little miffed too, right? Because those movies are part of the canon of Batman, and they just radically altered it.

With Reach, there were some things radically altered, so of course fans are going to be upset.

  • 05.20.2011 7:38 AM PDT

If you're passionate about the thing you're talking about, I'll always lend an ear.

Posted by: Cheeto666
Still, if, in the next Batman movie, they make Bruce Wayne touch little boys and fight in a pink suit and become an astronaut, you'd be a little miffed too, right? Because those movies are part of the canon of Batman, and they just radically altered it.

With Reach, there were some things radically altered, so of course fans are going to be upset.

Hmm.... you're not too far off if they were to do that in the newest batman movie.

More then touch?

Pink Batman.

He becomes teh astronaut he's destined to be.

I do agree with what you mean though. It just happened to be a tragic co-incidence all your suggestions are already part of the Batman universe one way or another.

[Edited on 05.20.2011 7:55 AM PDT]

  • 05.20.2011 7:54 AM PDT

Eh, the details being complained about aren't totally changing the characters or the spirit of the series in a dramatic way. It's mainly been a question of who and what was where and when.

For instance, if you changed Spartans into a robot piloted by monkeys who then form Voltron, then yes, be upset.

[Edited on 05.20.2011 8:13 AM PDT]

  • 05.20.2011 7:57 AM PDT

If you're passionate about the thing you're talking about, I'll always lend an ear.

Posted by: UshotYerEyeOut
For instance, if you changed Spartans into a robot piloted by monkeys who then form Voltron, then yes, be upset.


Robot? + Monkey Pilots? = Voltron?

Gotta love the internet.

:D

  • 05.20.2011 8:20 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Posted by: xgeua
Here's an example: According to the timeline, while Master Chief is testing out his new Mjolnir armour, the following has already happened.

*Noble Team is investigates Visegrad Relay and discovers Covenant forces.
*A Covenant corvette attacks ONI Sword Base.
*The UNSC begins a full scale assault on the Viery Territory.
*Covenant invasion of Reach is fully underway. 60% of the UNSC fleet is on route to Reach, the first battlegroup is set to enter the system in 48 hours.
*Covenant forces once again attack Sword Base and occupy the site. Dr. Halsey escapes capture by hiding under the facility.
*Noble Team destroys a Supercarrier just as a Covenant Fleet arrives above Reach.
*The Covenant fleet begins glassing targeted areas of Reach, and a battle breaks out in New Alexandria. New Alexandria is glassed.


I would have understood if Bungie had to change canon a bit since the book gave them freedom, but they strayed very far from canon and still told a poor story.



John tested the Mark V in November 24 of 2551, Halo: Reach takes place from July to August of 2552. Know the story before you criticize it.


Wrong.

Fall of Reach, Page 246: August 29th.

That's the day Chief field tested Mark V for the first time.

  • 05.20.2011 9:12 AM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: OrderedComa
People are just overreacting OP. There is nothing truly wrong with Halo: Reach, a few inconsistencies that are quite easily fixable maybe, but there's nothing that can't be fixed, and it's certainly not worth getting so worked up about.

Most of the slight inconsistencies were fixed in Halsey's Journal (came with the Limited and Legendary editions of the game), or can just be completely explained with common sense.


no we aren't and no it wasn't, didn't you say you don't even have the journal?

  • 05.20.2011 9:14 AM PDT

Posted by: anton1792
This does not do Reach justice. This is one Covenant starship.

If the entire home defence fleet was savaged by one vessel and there was insufficient nuclear payload to destroy this thing then Reach is not a fortress world. If a sizeable Nuclear payload cannot touch or do damage to this thing in addition to an entire fleet of vessels, then there is no reason why 20 of these things should not faceroll Reach onto oblivion, or even 50. First Strike says that the Covenant possesses hundreds of Supercarriers. In this instance the war would have been over years ago. Surely the Covenant are not stupid enough to overlook such massively powerful assets right under their noses?

This also implies that Reach has no groundside reserves of Nuclear weaponry. Fortress world...


When in First Strike does it say that? I don't remember it ever mentioning Supercarriers at all.
The home fleet at Reach is a hundred ships, give or take, not all of it would be sent at the LNoS at once (because the UNSC would underestimate it) and if the first few waves sent against it get totally devastated then they will begin searching for alternative solutions, such as trying to fire nukes at it, which, going off evidence from Ghosts of Onyx, would get sniped before ever reaching the ship.

And the Long Night of Solace brought several Corvettes with them as well, so it wasn't just the Supercarrier giving the UNSC a headache.

My primary point is that there were no ships there to deal with this threat in the first place. (3 Frigates would hardly pose a threat to a single Assault Carrier) Reach was utterly defenceless to a lone Covenant vessel for days. Fortress world...

Reach never gave any indication that there were no ships to deal with the Supercarrier at all. Nor was Reach completely defenseless, conventional methods (IE standard engagement charging in guns blazing) were not working, they needed to come up with an alternate solution. And I wouldn't take Carter's line about the nukes at total face value, there may have been a shortage from attempting to take the LNoS out and from previous engagements in the Viery territory.

I know that using the SMAC's on dirtside targets would be ridiculous. The presence of the unchallenged Supercarrier and "Covenant controlled Space" over Reach somehow means that they were unavailable for use. That does not mean that they were inoperable, just that they were not there for some reason. I do not know why not, because they obviously have thrusters to counteract the reaction force from firing their guns which allows them to move, and in TFoR they were re-positioned to face the Fleet of Particular Justice.

The fact of these being inconsistencies or not is not really the issue here, at least not for me. Whether or not they fit, they deal a horrible sucker-punch to what Reach was supposed to represent.


I don't think the Supercarrier was anywhere near the SMACs actually, I know I wouldn't take my ship anywhere near the things if the LNoS captain. The SMACs were grouped all in one area above the planet in geosynchronous orbit. And having thrusters to steady themselves after firing or to adjust their angle in position doesn't mean that they are able to be moved to another part of the planet at little notice.

  • 05.20.2011 9:20 AM PDT

"A LIE is a LIE"


- Truly intelligent and deep Black ops trailer


Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: Dustin 6047


People like this dumb ass above me need to find better things to do on this forum rather than say the game was bad for messing with this "canon". None of it matters.


You do know what forum section you're on right?

Canon is the ONLY thing that matters in this section.


Sorry caboose, you are wrong.


Stuff like theorising what happened to MC, forerunners and precursors, coming up with solutions to problems in the Halo canon, and talking about the future of the universe - these are examples of non-canon stuff which has been discussed here.

These subject aren't canon, yet they still fit well in the universe forums.

Dont start saying stuff like "ONLY CANON IN UNIVERSE FORUMS", that stuff is BS.


Theories, solutions and community idea's are just as important as confirmed canon.



[Edited on 05.20.2011 9:25 AM PDT]

  • 05.20.2011 9:23 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: OrderedComa
Reach never gave any indication that there were no ships to deal with the Supercarrier at all. Nor was Reach completely defenseless, conventional methods (IE standard engagement charging in guns blazing) were not working, they needed to come up with an alternate solution. And I wouldn't take Carter's line about the nukes at total face value, there may have been a shortage from attempting to take the LNoS out and from previous engagements in the Viery territory.


So you're saying that UNSC's largest Military world sent a couple nukes at the LNOS. They figured, "hey, this isn't working," and sent the rest of their nukes at it anyway, causing the shortage? No matter how you put it, there should NOT have been a shortage of nukes on Reach. That's just a ridiculous thought.

  • 05.20.2011 9:23 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: Pipboy 3050

Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: Dustin 6047


People like this dumb ass above me need to find better things to do on this forum rather than say the game was bad for messing with this "canon". None of it matters.


You do know what forum section you're on right?

Canon is the ONLY thing that matters in this section.


Sorry caboose, you are wrong.


Stuff like theorising what happened to MC, forerunners and precursors, coming up with solutions to problems in the Halo canon, and talking about the future of the universe - these are examples of non-canon stuff which has been discussed here.

These subject aren't canon, yet they still fit well in the universe forums.

Dont start saying stuff like "ONLY CANON IN UNIVERSE FORUMS", that stuff is BS.



The entire point of this forum is discussing canon material. Theorizing is going to draw from canon. Solutions to broken canon is going to obviously discuss canon material. And talking about the future of the universe, is definitely going to pull old canon into play.

If ANY ONE THING doesn't add up, then how can any theories be taken seriously, if previous material can simply be retconned at will? This entire forum is built on the basis that canon is intact, thus theories and discussion can happen properly. When things don't add up, then what's the point in putting effort into a theory that can be blown out of the water because Bungie or 343 said, "Oh, it didn't actually happen that way," or, "ONI did it."

  • 05.20.2011 9:26 AM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: OrderedComa
Posted by: anton1792
This does not do Reach justice. This is one Covenant starship.

If the entire home defence fleet was savaged by one vessel and there was insufficient nuclear payload to destroy this thing then Reach is not a fortress world. If a sizeable Nuclear payload cannot touch or do damage to this thing in addition to an entire fleet of vessels, then there is no reason why 20 of these things should not faceroll Reach onto oblivion, or even 50. First Strike says that the Covenant possesses hundreds of Supercarriers. In this instance the war would have been over years ago. Surely the Covenant are not stupid enough to overlook such massively powerful assets right under their noses?

This also implies that Reach has no groundside reserves of Nuclear weaponry. Fortress world...


When in First Strike does it say that? I don't remember it ever mentioning Supercarriers at all.
The home fleet at Reach is a hundred ships, give or take, not all of it would be sent at the LNoS at once (because the UNSC would underestimate it) and if the first few waves sent against it get totally devastated then they will begin searching for alternative solutions, such as trying to fire nukes at it, which, going off evidence from Ghosts of Onyx, would get sniped before ever reaching the ship.

And the Long Night of Solace brought several Corvettes with them as well, so it wasn't just the Supercarrier giving the UNSC a headache.

My primary point is that there were no ships there to deal with this threat in the first place. (3 Frigates would hardly pose a threat to a single Assault Carrier) Reach was utterly defenceless to a lone Covenant vessel for days. Fortress world...

Reach never gave any indication that there were no ships to deal with the Supercarrier at all. Nor was Reach completely defenseless, conventional methods (IE standard engagement charging in guns blazing) were not working, they needed to come up with an alternate solution. And I wouldn't take Carter's line about the nukes at total face value, there may have been a shortage from attempting to take the LNoS out and from previous engagements in the Viery territory.

I know that using the SMAC's on dirtside targets would be ridiculous. The presence of the unchallenged Supercarrier and "Covenant controlled Space" over Reach somehow means that they were unavailable for use. That does not mean that they were inoperable, just that they were not there for some reason. I do not know why not, because they obviously have thrusters to counteract the reaction force from firing their guns which allows them to move, and in TFoR they were re-positioned to face the Fleet of Particular Justice.

The fact of these being inconsistencies or not is not really the issue here, at least not for me. Whether or not they fit, they deal a horrible sucker-punch to what Reach was supposed to represent.


I don't think the Supercarrier was anywhere near the SMACs actually, I know I wouldn't take my ship anywhere near the things if the LNoS captain. The SMACs were grouped all in one area above the planet in geosynchronous orbit. And having thrusters to steady themselves after firing or to adjust their angle in position doesn't mean that they are able to be moved to another part of the planet at little notice.


I don't have page numbers in my head but super carriers were involved. A single frigate can beat a corvette, and reach did give the impression that it had no defenses since (frankly) there where none to be seen or heard of.

Carter speaks the truth because the UNSC was running low on nukes at the time.

  • 05.20.2011 9:35 AM PDT

"A LIE is a LIE"


- Truly intelligent and deep Black ops trailer


Posted by: privet caboose
The entire point of this forum is discussing canon material. Theorizing is going to draw from canon. Solutions to broken canon is going to obviously discuss canon material. And talking about the future of the universe, is definitely going to pull old canon into play.

If ANY ONE THING doesn't add up, then how can any theories be taken seriously, if previous material can simply be retconned at will? This entire forum is built on the basis that canon is intact, thus theories and discussion can happen properly. When things don't add up, then what's the point in putting effort into a theory that can be blown out of the water because Bungie or 343 said, "Oh, it didn't actually happen that way," or, "ONI did it."


I disagree. Just because the subjects I mentioned have roots to the halo canon does not mean it is 100% canon. As I have said, the universe forum is just as much about canon stuff as it is about non-canon stuff.

Remember, you did say "ONLY CANON" matters in the universe forum, which is wrong. I suggest you re-edit your post so you don't mislead people.


The universe is a forum for community idea's, theories...ect just as much as canon subjects.

[Edited on 05.20.2011 9:36 AM PDT]

  • 05.20.2011 9:35 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Pipboy 3050

Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: Dustin 6047


People like this dumb ass above me need to find better things to do on this forum rather than say the game was bad for messing with this "canon". None of it matters.


You do know what forum section you're on right?

Canon is the ONLY thing that matters in this section.


Sorry caboose, you are wrong.


Stuff like theorising what happened to MC, forerunners and precursors, coming up with solutions to problems in the Halo canon, and talking about the future of the universe - these are examples of non-canon stuff which has been discussed here.

These subject aren't canon, yet they still fit well in the universe forums.

Dont start saying stuff like "ONLY CANON IN UNIVERSE FORUMS", that stuff is BS.


Theories, solutions and community idea's are just as important as confirmed canon.


Um your wrong because that is what this forum is about.

  • 05.20.2011 9:36 AM PDT