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This topic has moved here: Subject: Just what is so criminally wrong about Halo: Reach?
  • Subject: Just what is so criminally wrong about Halo: Reach?
Subject: Just what is so criminally wrong about Halo: Reach?

"A LIE is a LIE"


- Truly intelligent and deep Black ops trailer


Posted by: grey101

Um your wrong because that is what this forum is about.


This forum is about Canon, but is also about community idea's and theories.

Caboose said "ONLY CANON" matters in this forum. I disagree.

  • 05.20.2011 9:37 AM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Pipboy 3050

Posted by: grey101

Um your wrong because that is what this forum is about.


This forum is about Canon, but is also about community idea's and theories.

Caboose said "ONLY CANON" matters in this forum. I disagree.


The Bungie Universe Forum is for discussion of all elements of the storyline, backstory, plotline, and canon elements of all Bungie games.


so he is wrong by stating that what we always talk about "technically" isn't permitted.

  • 05.20.2011 9:40 AM PDT

"A LIE is a LIE"


- Truly intelligent and deep Black ops trailer


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: Pipboy 3050

Posted by: grey101

Um your wrong because that is what this forum is about.


This forum is about Canon, but is also about community idea's and theories.

Caboose said "ONLY CANON" matters in this forum. I disagree.


The Bungie Universe Forum is for discussion of all elements of the storyline, backstory, plotline, and canon elements of all Bungie games.


so he is wrong by stating that what we always talk about "technically" isn't permitted.


Elements of the storyline includes non-canon community idea's and theories.

Notice how it says "canon elements" It doesn't spell out "ONLY CANON" matters.

  • 05.20.2011 9:47 AM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Pipboy 3050

Posted by: grey101

Posted by: Pipboy 3050

Posted by: grey101

Um your wrong because that is what this forum is about.


This forum is about Canon, but is also about community idea's and theories.

Caboose said "ONLY CANON" matters in this forum. I disagree.


The Bungie Universe Forum is for discussion of all elements of the storyline, backstory, plotline, and canon elements of all Bungie games.


so he is wrong by stating that what we always talk about "technically" isn't permitted.


Elements of the storyline includes non-canon community idea's and theories.

Notice how it says "canon elements" It doesn't spell out "ONLY CANON" matters.


I was talking about dustin, not caboose so stay on the statement that you quoted.

And thus they are allowed, and aren't "off topic' as he stated.

  • 05.20.2011 9:56 AM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Sigma617
Reach is just a bastard child of an unhappy Bungie in it's split from Microsoft. There are so many things wrong about this game it isn't even funny.


Its getting to the point to where i feel we should just make an "official" poll asking if halo Reach did justice or not and base everything else off that result.

  • 05.20.2011 9:59 AM PDT

"A LIE is a LIE"


- Truly intelligent and deep Black ops trailer


Posted by: grey101

I was talking about dustin, not caboose so stay on the statement that you quoted.

And thus they are allowed, and aren't "off topic' as he stated.



Ummm.... Dustin? What?


I think were misunderstand each other here. I'm talking about caboose's incorrect statement, you are obviously talking about someone else.

  • 05.20.2011 10:14 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: UshotYerEyeOut
Eh, the details being complained about aren't totally changing the characters or the spirit of the series in a dramatic way. It's mainly been a question of who and what was where and when.

It sort of is. The Covenant are no longer this imitative enemy against which the UNSC could pull a few victories from time to time. The Covenant followed the same method nearly every time in just bulldozing UNSC fleets and then glassing by following lateral lines across the planet. The Covenant were really quite lazy and complacent. We were shown this in TFoR where they lost two thirds of their entire fleet, throwing waves of vessels at the SMAC's in an attempt to destroy them.

Then they sacrificed thousands of soldiers at the generators. Sure, nearly all of the Marines stationed there were killed, but the initial waves of Covenant forces were completely annihilated. These guys have superior technology yet struggle against Humanity on the ground.

Now we have this elaborate and contrived plan going on in Reach. How is the UNSC still around if the Covenant do things like this and have that level of technological ability? If they never knew what was happening on Reach, then how are they going to know about other less secure colonies? The Covenant being imitative is the only reason the UNSC survived. The Covenant being imitative and losing, with the UNSC being innovative and winning could be taken as a theme. Perhaps like thinking for yourself s a better than relying on another for something.

Posted by: OrderedComa
When in First Strike does it say that? I don't remember it ever mentioning Supercarriers at all.

The opening paragraph to First Strike's Epilogue:

"A hundred thousand probes darted and scanned with winking electronic eyes across the void of tangled nonspaces enveloping the Covenant inner Empire. They gathered data and emerged into the cold vacuum, where they were recovered by the hundreds of Supercarriers and cruisers in station keeping positions around the massive, bulbous planetoid that dominated the heavens."

Your first two quote boxes are relying on the fact that the Supercarrier is too powerful to be destroyed by 100 vessels, thus explaining why the Home Fleet was no where to be seen and why any Nukes were not used (If they even existed. But let us just assume that Carter does not know about them for now). If this is the case, then the Covenant win the Human-Covenant war, because they have hundreds of these things.

Do you not see the illogic behind this? If this thing is powerful enough to resist all of Reach's defences, then why are they bothering with stealth in the first place?

It really all boils down to:

Supercarrier too powerful, why do the Covenant lose the war?
Supercarrier nothing special, why is Reach so pathetic in its defence?

Posted by: OrderedComa
The SMACs were grouped all in one area above the planet in geosynchronous orbit. And having thrusters to steady themselves after firing or to adjust their angle in position doesn't mean that they are able to be moved to another part of the planet at little notice.

Why?

  • 05.20.2011 10:36 AM PDT
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Posted by: privet caboose
Check out the "Unexplainable errors in the Reach canon" thread in the Top forum topics for more info.

I read that topic a while back but even those errors are explainable.

[Edited on 05.20.2011 10:49 AM PDT]

  • 05.20.2011 10:40 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: Methew
Posted by: privet caboose
Check out the "Unexplainable errors in the Reach canon" thread in the Top forum topics for more info.

I read that topic a while back but even those errors are explainable.


Please, enlighten me.

  • 05.20.2011 10:41 AM PDT
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Posted by: privet caboose
Error: Reach was invaded on July 24th.
Proof: All Halo media has always stated Reach fell in one day, and that day was August 30th.

The proof doesn't rule out a prolonged engagement prior to the August 30th date. It only marks August 30th as the date that the battle was declared over and that Reach was declared lost.

Error: Alpha Company was wiped out completely during Operation: PROMETHEUS in 2537. Carter, Emile, and Jun should not be alive.
ONI lied to Kurt.

Error: ONI's actions as well as the Cole Protocol.

According to the Cole Protocol, if any Covenant Forces are detected, then all NAV bases and ships should purge their computers of information to protect Earth and the inner colonies.

And it's foolish to wipe your NavData at the first sign of any Covenant, leaving yourself blind if you try to escape or leave should you manage to be victorious as the aggressor. The logical idea is that the Cole Protocol requires a wipe incase of possible seizure, unwinnable odds or boarding.

Error: Carter, Emile, and Jun's age.
Carter is born in 2520. He was 11 years old when Alpha Company began their training. This puts him 5 years above the previously stated age, and it makes no sense at all.

Cryo-sleep as a child.

Error: Lack of Orbital MAC's.
The MACs are present. It's clearly stated in TotS that the MAC platforms are being invaded alongside the groundside Invasion.

Error: Pillar of Autumn on Reach.
I do not believe that the book rules out the possibility of the PoA returning groundside for the pickup and then leaving for Halo.

The PoA crash landed on Halo largely intact, a controlled landing seems a possibility.

[Edited on 05.20.2011 10:52 AM PDT]

  • 05.20.2011 10:49 AM PDT


Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: Methew
Posted by: privet caboose
Check out the "Unexplainable errors in the Reach canon" thread in the Top forum topics for more info.

I read that topic a while back but even those errors are explainable.


Please, enlighten me.


People have been "enlightening" you all throughtout your thread and all throughout this whole forum :P You're just simply not listening and writing every idea off, no matter how plausible (or sometimes implausible) it is. Your response, and the response of a whole lot of other people on here, pretty much boils down to "I'm offended that canon was slightly changed, so I'm going to sit here and shout down anyone trying to figure it out, no matter how intelligent or otherwise their proposed fix is!".

  • 05.20.2011 10:52 AM PDT

Que Pasta...?
:D

Only 2 things really nagged at me, and they were:

1: WHY IN GODS NAME WAS THE PILLAR OF AUTUMN GROUNDED?!?!?!?!?
It is clearly stated as being in an orbital "space dock".

2: How did Halsey know about the SIII's, enough so to give them orders and have them report to her?!?!?!?!

Other than that, nothing really jumped out at me. Other than the obvious exaggeration on the amount of time the invasion took.

[Edited on 05.20.2011 11:02 AM PDT]

  • 05.20.2011 10:57 AM PDT
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Posted by: carpy444
1: WHY IN GODS NAME WAS THE PILLAR OF AUTUMN GROUNDED?!?!?!?!?
It is clearly stated as being in an orbital "space dock".

It's a ship. Ships can move.

2: How did Halsey know about the SIII's, enough so to give them orders and have them report to her?!?!?!?!
She knew they were Spartans, she knew they weren't normal Spartans since she didn't pick them and they were shorter than Jorge. So she knows something is up but she doesn't know they are SIIIs.

[Edited on 05.20.2011 11:10 AM PDT]

  • 05.20.2011 11:09 AM PDT

Posted by: anton1792
It sort of is. The Covenant are no longer this imitative enemy against which the UNSC could pull a few victories from time to time. The Covenant followed the same method nearly every time in just bulldozing UNSC fleets and then glassing by following lateral lines across the planet. The Covenant were really quite lazy and complacent. We were shown this in TFoR where they lost two thirds of their entire fleet, throwing waves of vessels at the SMAC's in an attempt to destroy them.

Then they sacrificed thousands of soldiers at the generators. Sure, nearly all of the Marines stationed there were killed, but the initial waves of Covenant forces were completely annihilated. These guys have superior technology yet struggle against Humanity on the ground.

Now we have this elaborate and contrived plan going on in Reach. How is the UNSC still around if the Covenant do things like this and have that level of technological ability? If they never knew what was happening on Reach, then how are they going to know about other less secure colonies? The Covenant being imitative is the only reason the UNSC survived. The Covenant being imitative and losing, with the UNSC being innovative and winning could be taken as a theme. Perhaps like thinking for yourself s a better than relying on another for something.


The Covenant has never been imitative in strategy, that describes their technology and nothing else! Even in TFoR they showed strategy and in countless other battles. They've never really been careful with numbers because they have a significant numerical advantage to the UNSC, however Reach was the odd one out, it was much more defended than any other Human world they had found yet (probably thought Reach was our homeworld). They'd need more intel and to soften it up before invading, hence the purpose of the LNoS and its Corvettes resorting to sneaking in and playing saboteurs. They weren't careful with numbers later because they had the ships left over from the fleet that jumped in after the LNoS was destroyed, and the Fleet of Particular Justice which arrived on the 30th of August.

The opening paragraph to First Strike's Epilogue:

"A hundred thousand probes darted and scanned with winking electronic eyes across the void of tangled nonspaces enveloping the Covenant inner Empire. They gathered data and emerged into the cold vacuum, where they were recovered by the hundreds of Supercarriers and cruisers in station keeping positions around the massive, bulbous planetoid that dominated the heavens."

Your first two quote boxes are relying on the fact that the Supercarrier is too powerful to be destroyed by 100 vessels, thus explaining why the Home Fleet was no where to be seen and why any Nukes were not used (If they even existed. But let us just assume that Carter does not know about them for now). If this is the case, then the Covenant win the Human-Covenant war, because they have hundreds of these things.

Do you not see the illogic behind this? If this thing is powerful enough to resist all of Reach's defences, then why are they bothering with stealth in the first place?

It really all boils down to:

Supercarrier too powerful, why do the Covenant lose the war?
Supercarrier nothing special, why is Reach so pathetic in its defence?


Ok, thanks for posting the quote.

Now, let me point out that the Long Night of Solace is not your average Supercarrier. The normal Supercarrier, what would compose either the bulk or the whole of the Supercarrier numbers at High Charity are 9,842 ft. long, whereas the Long Night of Solace is 88,582 ft. long. It would have significantly more armaments, stronger shields, and lord knows what else at its disposal. It's not going to be a pushover and would be well more than a match for the Home Fleet at Reach.

And there would not be many Supercarriers of the same size as the LNoS simply because of how expensive and the amount of resources needed to make them.

Why?

Why what? Why would it be hard to move them or why are they all located above one point?

I never said they were hard to move, I just it would be difficult to move them to another area at a moments notice. They certainly can't go anywhere on their own.

  • 05.20.2011 11:11 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Sigh.

The book CLEARLY states that Reach was taken COMPLETELY by surprise on the 30th. There was no prior battle. The UNSC had no idea the Covenant knew Reach's location until the 30th.

Hell, the chief was driving around mountains on the 12th, and battles had already begun by then.

You cannot retcon the battle of an entire planet. The second most important planet. The battle that directly led to every single even in the trilogy and half of the novels. EVERYTHING changed when they made the battle go from lasting one day, to over a friggin' month.

  • 05.20.2011 11:13 AM PDT
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Posted by: privet caboose
Sigh.

The book CLEARLY states that Reach was taken COMPLETELY by surprise on the 30th. There was no prior battle. The UNSC had no idea the Covenant knew Reach's location until the 30th.

Hell, the chief was driving around mountains on the 12th, and battles had already begun by then.

You cannot retcon the battle of an entire planet. The second most important planet. The battle that directly led to every single even in the trilogy and half of the novels. EVERYTHING changed when they made the battle go from lasting one day, to over a friggin' month.

I'll read the book again to get a refresh but the idea goes into my head that ONI filtered the news feeds to keep the invasion hush. And depending on the wording, they might have taken by complete suprise of the arrival of the Fleet of Particular Justice.

[Edited on 05.20.2011 11:27 AM PDT]

  • 05.20.2011 11:26 AM PDT


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: OrderedComa
Posted by: anton1792
This does not do Reach justice. This is one Covenant starship.

If the entire home defence fleet was savaged by one vessel and there was insufficient nuclear payload to destroy this thing then Reach is not a fortress world. If a sizeable Nuclear payload cannot touch or do damage to this thing in addition to an entire fleet of vessels, then there is no reason why 20 of these things should not faceroll Reach onto oblivion, or even 50. First Strike says that the Covenant possesses hundreds of Supercarriers. In this instance the war would have been over years ago. Surely the Covenant are not stupid enough to overlook such massively powerful assets right under their noses?

This also implies that Reach has no groundside reserves of Nuclear weaponry. Fortress world...


When in First Strike does it say that? I don't remember it ever mentioning Supercarriers at all.
The home fleet at Reach is a hundred ships, give or take, not all of it would be sent at the LNoS at once (because the UNSC would underestimate it) and if the first few waves sent against it get totally devastated then they will begin searching for alternative solutions, such as trying to fire nukes at it, which, going off evidence from Ghosts of Onyx, would get sniped before ever reaching the ship.

And the Long Night of Solace brought several Corvettes with them as well, so it wasn't just the Supercarrier giving the UNSC a headache.

My primary point is that there were no ships there to deal with this threat in the first place. (3 Frigates would hardly pose a threat to a single Assault Carrier) Reach was utterly defenceless to a lone Covenant vessel for days. Fortress world...

Reach never gave any indication that there were no ships to deal with the Supercarrier at all. Nor was Reach completely defenseless, conventional methods (IE standard engagement charging in guns blazing) were not working, they needed to come up with an alternate solution. And I wouldn't take Carter's line about the nukes at total face value, there may have been a shortage from attempting to take the LNoS out and from previous engagements in the Viery territory.

I know that using the SMAC's on dirtside targets would be ridiculous. The presence of the unchallenged Supercarrier and "Covenant controlled Space" over Reach somehow means that they were unavailable for use. That does not mean that they were inoperable, just that they were not there for some reason. I do not know why not, because they obviously have thrusters to counteract the reaction force from firing their guns which allows them to move, and in TFoR they were re-positioned to face the Fleet of Particular Justice.

The fact of these being inconsistencies or not is not really the issue here, at least not for me. Whether or not they fit, they deal a horrible sucker-punch to what Reach was supposed to represent.


I don't think the Supercarrier was anywhere near the SMACs actually, I know I wouldn't take my ship anywhere near the things if the LNoS captain. The SMACs were grouped all in one area above the planet in geosynchronous orbit. And having thrusters to steady themselves after firing or to adjust their angle in position doesn't mean that they are able to be moved to another part of the planet at little notice.


I don't have page numbers in my head but super carriers were involved. A single frigate can beat a corvette, and reach did give the impression that it had no defenses since (frankly) there where none to be seen or heard of.

Carter speaks the truth because the UNSC was running low on nukes at the time.


Anton handled it.

When did we see that? I don't ever remember seeing a single Frigate taking on and beating a Corvette. The Savannah had its ass whooped by the Ardent Prayer, and that's the only instance of the two ship types fighting that I can recall.

We saw military presence and bases than we ever saw in Halo 2 or in Halo 3. And you're not going to see a space battle when you're on the ground in a different area than where it's occurring.

  • 05.20.2011 11:30 AM PDT


Posted by: privet caboose
Sigh.

The book CLEARLY states that Reach was taken COMPLETELY by surprise on the 30th. There was no prior battle. The UNSC had no idea the Covenant knew Reach's location until the 30th.

Hell, the chief was driving around mountains on the 12th, and battles had already begun by then.

You cannot retcon the battle of an entire planet. The second most important planet. The battle that directly led to every single even in the trilogy and half of the novels. EVERYTHING changed when they made the battle go from lasting one day, to over a friggin' month.


And while he's driving to the base on the 12th he notices heightened, almost excessive, military security and wonders what the hell is going on. The battles were localized only to the Viery Territory at that point, not the whole planet.

The Battle of Reach really started on the 14th when the first Covenant fleet arrived at Reach after the LNoS was destroyed.

And in the game the battle is almost exactly one month, hell it's not even really that as full fledged fighting didn't really start until August 14th, so the battle really only lasted about two weeks. And no, nothing has changed, every event can, and still does happen almost exactly the same way as before.

  • 05.20.2011 11:36 AM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Posted by: xgeua
Here's an example: According to the timeline, while Master Chief is testing out his new Mjolnir armour, the following has already happened.

*Noble Team is investigates Visegrad Relay and discovers Covenant forces.
*A Covenant corvette attacks ONI Sword Base.
*The UNSC begins a full scale assault on the Viery Territory.
*Covenant invasion of Reach is fully underway. 60% of the UNSC fleet is on route to Reach, the first battlegroup is set to enter the system in 48 hours.
*Covenant forces once again attack Sword Base and occupy the site. Dr. Halsey escapes capture by hiding under the facility.
*Noble Team destroys a Supercarrier just as a Covenant Fleet arrives above Reach.
*The Covenant fleet begins glassing targeted areas of Reach, and a battle breaks out in New Alexandria. New Alexandria is glassed.


I would have understood if Bungie had to change canon a bit since the book gave them freedom, but they strayed very far from canon and still told a poor story.



John tested the Mark V in November 24 of 2551, Halo: Reach takes place from July to August of 2552. Know the story before you criticize it.


Wrong.

Fall of Reach, Page 246: August 29th.

That's the day Chief field tested Mark V for the first time.


The Mk. V armor was the first of the line to be equipped with energy shields (based, in part, on captured Covenant matériel). S-117 was not the first Spartan to receive the Mk. V armor, as he had been in the field when it entered service on 24 Nov 2551. The most obvious indication of this is how familiar the Marines on the UNSC Pillar of Autumn (C-709) were with the armor.

So, what was so special about 29 Aug 2552? This was the very first time a "smart" AI had "piggy-backed" in the Mjolnir Mk. V powered assault armor during "live-fire" simulated combat conditions.


Taken directly from Bungie and while I do recognize that I'm wrong in the testing thing, this may as well shut the people who complain about Noble Team having MJOLNIR already.

[Edited on 05.20.2011 11:37 AM PDT]

  • 05.20.2011 11:36 AM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

Coma, you've got to consider that the Savannah was not trying to destroy the Ardent Prayer. Truth is, a Frigate is an even fight for two Corvettes. It can take out one with its MAC cannon and then finish the other with archer missiles due to their lack of shielding.

  • 05.20.2011 11:41 AM PDT

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"Sometimes life gives you lemons, and then you have to say 'f**k the lemons' and bail."

If you're reading this, you need to stop stalking me. If you can't stop stalking me, you might as well go here.

I feel as if Bungie threw away a decade's worth of story in order to churn out a last ditch attempt at fulfilling a contractual obligation with Microsoft.

I just didn't see the point in re-writing what I think a lot of people considered to be the standard for Halo's back story. I mean, just take a look back; when a new Halo novel was released with some conflicting information, we didn't compare it to The Flood, we compared it to The Fall of Reach.

The Battle of Reach depicted in TFoR was the one everyone wanted to play, and it finally seemed like we had received our wish. We were finally going to experience the epic battle that set up the situation for our beloved games.

And then it actually came out.

Don't get me wrong; as a standalone game, Reach isn't so bad. Hell, compared to the other two Master Chief-less Halo games we've been given, it was pretty good. It was classic Halo gameplay. (Only with armor abilities, which for the most part, I don't like, but I digress.)

But then we get to the story, and they take everything that we loved about The Fall of Reach and either contradict it, or outright ignore it. They try to introduce new characters, then put them up on this pedestal as if they're already distinguished in the bigger story, then kill them off before anyone could learn enough about them to give a damn. Sure, Master Chief or The Rookie didn't have much going for them in the way of character development either, but they were meant as blank slates, it was kind of the point. The same went for Noble Six, but we weren't fighting alongside unique NPCs in previous Halos, were we? (Johnson was about it.)

However, the characters aren't even my biggest complaint. We all knew how Reach ended going into the game; the idea that they could develop brand new characters in a single game when ,even in the context of their own story they're mindless drones, was unrealistic at best. Jorge came close, and given a few more campaign missions, he could've been the only successful character in the game, but we all know how that ended. It was silly to try and make the audience care about (obvious) throwaway characters.

No, what gets me the most is they used Reach. They took a random encounter that could've taken place anywhere else in the story, and slapped Reach on it. Seriously, try to stand back and take an objective look at the story. Get rid of Halsey and scale down the Covenant invasion fleet, and why couldn't this story have taken place on any other planet? Why rework an established story to fit the needs of brand new content?

Halo: Reach was just another product from the milking of the Halo franchise. Another Halo game would've sold regardless, but no, they decided to half-ass one of the more favored stories of the franchise in order to crap out another game.

The story of Reach deserved a development timeline on par with that of the rest of the main trilogy. Instead, we got an average story made simultaneously with another game (ODST) by Bungie B team while everyone else seemed to be focusing on their next IP.

I remember expressing my concern prior to Reach's release about the lack of Joe Staten, Jason Jones, and the other names at Bungie that we've become familiar with throughout the franchise's lifetime. I watched the ViDocs and asked, "Who the hell is Joe Teung, and why is he project lead?"

My skepticism seems to have served me right.

[Edited on 05.20.2011 11:47 AM PDT]

  • 05.20.2011 11:46 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: OrderedComa
The Covenant has never been imitative in strategy, that describes their technology and nothing else! Even in TFoR they showed strategy and in countless other battles. They've never really been careful with numbers because they have a significant numerical advantage to the UNSC, however Reach was the odd one out, it was much more defended than any other Human world they had found yet (probably thought Reach was our homeworld). They'd need more intel and to soften it up before invading, hence the purpose of the LNoS and its Corvettes resorting to sneaking in and playing saboteurs. They weren't careful with numbers later because they had the ships left over from the fleet that jumped in after the LNoS was destroyed, and the Fleet of Particular Justice which arrived on the 30th of August.

Well...

They did not change their security protocols after the Ascendant Justice was taken. One month later the Bloodied Spirit was taken.

They did not use ancient radio signals from Earth's past to triangulate Earth's position.

It did not occur to them early on in the war, before the Cole Protocol came out (The actual thing, not the book) to take navigation data.

The Forerunner Fleet is an interesting example, because I think it suggests nothing but linear thinking. Take powerful warships and smash, smash, smash. They were uncomfortable with their own assets and ability to perform in a war like this, so went for bigger guns, not better tactics.

I would perhaps say that a competent commander would take care with the numbers, try to minimise loses.

Before Humanity, they had not fought a massive war since the founding of the Covenant. Since then, they had just fought species that were confined to their own solar system. For 3000 years they have fought nothing but that, and grunt rebellions and small heretic groups. There is nothing to justify them keeping their tactics honed over the millennia. The behaviour in Reach is quite "wut?" I think.

What examples are there for their innovative war tactics?

Posted by: OrderedComa
The opening paragraph to First Strike's Epilogue:

"A hundred thousand probes darted and scanned with winking electronic eyes across the void of tangled nonspaces enveloping the Covenant inner Empire. They gathered data and emerged into the cold vacuum, where they were recovered by the hundreds of Supercarriers and cruisers in station keeping positions around the massive, bulbous planetoid that dominated the heavens."

Your first two quote boxes are relying on the fact that the Supercarrier is too powerful to be destroyed by 100 vessels, thus explaining why the Home Fleet was no where to be seen and why any Nukes were not used (If they even existed. But let us just assume that Carter does not know about them for now). If this is the case, then the Covenant win the Human-Covenant war, because they have hundreds of these things.

Do you not see the illogic behind this? If this thing is powerful enough to resist all of Reach's defences, then why are they bothering with stealth in the first place?

It really all boils down to:

Supercarrier too powerful, why do the Covenant lose the war?
Supercarrier nothing special, why is Reach so pathetic in its defence?


Ok, thanks for posting the quote.

Now, let me point out that the Long Night of Solace is not your average Supercarrier. The normal Supercarrier, what would compose either the bulk or the whole of the Supercarrier numbers at High Charity are 9,842 ft. long, whereas the Long Night of Solace is 88,582 ft. long. It would have significantly more armaments, stronger shields, and lord knows what else at its disposal. It's not going to be a pushover and would be well more than a match for the Home Fleet at Reach.

And there would not be many Supercarriers of the same size as the LNoS simply because of how expensive and the amount of resources needed to make them.

Well that is fine. It is very ad hoc, but I could accept that. Or changing Supercarrier in First Strike to Assault Carriers, or just carriers.

The only thing is if it so powerful, why is there a need for stealth?

Posted by: OrderedComa
Why?
Why what? Why would it be hard to move them or why are they all located above one point?

I never said they were hard to move, I just it would be difficult to move them to another area at a moments notice. They certainly can't go anywhere on their own.

Well, in order to stay in geosynchronous orbit they must have manoeuvring thrusters, and something to counteract the firing forces. They will have to be pretty powerful. I don't see how it can't be moved quick enough.

Reach is not all that bigger than Earth, about 3000km greater diameter. SMAC's fire at "point four tenths" c, going by TFoR. That means that if just one SMAC has a line of sight on tLNoS, then in under 2 seconds the round will cross the entirety of Reach's diameter. It travels at 12'000km/s. The Supercarrier is going nowhere. I can't see how it can hide anywhere near Reach.

  • 05.20.2011 11:46 AM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Posted by: RKOSNAKE

So, what was so special about 29 Aug 2552? This was the very first time a "smart" AI had "piggy-backed" in the Mjolnir Mk. V powered assault armor during "live-fire" simulated combat conditions.

Taken directly from Bungie and while I do recognize that I'm wrong in the testing thing, this may as well shut the people who complain about Noble Team having MJOLNIR already.


We all know that NOBLE had Mark V before the rest of the Spartan II's(for some godforsaken reason that we'll probably never know.)

The only Spartan II who had MJOLNIR before the others was Jorge. Every other Spartan II received their Mark V at the same time.

Also, the marines were "so familiar" with it, because Mark V is just a slimmed down Mark IV.

  • 05.20.2011 11:46 AM PDT