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This topic has moved here: Subject: Just what is so criminally wrong about Halo: Reach?
  • Subject: Just what is so criminally wrong about Halo: Reach?
Subject: Just what is so criminally wrong about Halo: Reach?

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: raganok99
I think it'd be damn good storyline instead of smoldering abomination called: Halo Reach that ruined entire CANON.

Hyperbole won't get you far bro. Bigger sci-fi universes than Halo have undergone retcons much more massive that Halo: Reach and have survived intact. Take Star Wars, the Clone Wars cartoon changes a lot, like the Mandalorian now being peaceful diplomats compared to the warriors of old. I don't like it, but it doesn't stop me from speculating with this new info in my mind. I have a feeling post-Clone War, there is going to be a shake-up in the Mando leadership and the Mandalorian will embrace their warrior culture yet again.

See? I did all that without whining about how Star Wars is ruined. Halo fans have it easy with canon.

  • 05.20.2011 3:49 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
She didn't know they were Spartan-IIIs. In the Journal, all she knows is that they are not her Spartans. Her first guess what they they come from something called Project JAVELIN.

Source: Halsey's Journal

What matters is she now knows of Spartans that are not hers before she should have. Even in First Strike she did not know they were III's, just that there were other Spartans and her journey to Onyx only proved her suspicions correct.

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Hyperbole won't get you far bro. Bigger sci-fi universes than Halo have undergone retcons much more massive that Halo: Reach and have survived intact. Take Star Wars, the Clone Wars cartoon changes a lot, like the Mandalorian now being peaceful diplomats compared to the warriors of old. I don't like it, but it doesn't stop me from speculating with this new info in my mind. I have a feeling post-Clone War, there is going to be a shake-up in the Mando leadership and the Mandalorian will embrace their warrior culture yet again.

See? I did all that without whining about how Star Wars is ruined. Halo fans have it easy with canon.

The change of a fairly insignificant race's disposition does not alter much. This is the alteration of the event in Halo that ties much of MC's story together with the overall universe. Not to mention the source of the REASON Halo CE even happened and thus all of MC's storyline. The changes made in Reach changes the context of the entire event, altering rationalities and situations to the point that much of what led up to the Pillar of Autumn being where it is no longer makes sense.

  • 05.20.2011 5:12 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: DecepticonCobra
She didn't know they were Spartan-IIIs. In the Journal, all she knows is that they are not her Spartans. Her first guess what they they come from something called Project JAVELIN.

Source: Halsey's Journal

What matters is she now knows of Spartans that are not hers before she should have. Even in First Strike she did not know they were III's, just that there were other Spartans and her journey to Onyx only proved her suspicions correct.

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Hyperbole won't get you far bro. Bigger sci-fi universes than Halo have undergone retcons much more massive that Halo: Reach and have survived intact. Take Star Wars, the Clone Wars cartoon changes a lot, like the Mandalorian now being peaceful diplomats compared to the warriors of old. I don't like it, but it doesn't stop me from speculating with this new info in my mind. I have a feeling post-Clone War, there is going to be a shake-up in the Mando leadership and the Mandalorian will embrace their warrior culture yet again.

See? I did all that without whining about how Star Wars is ruined. Halo fans have it easy with canon.

The change of a fairly insignificant race's disposition does not alter much. This is the alteration of the event in Halo that ties much of MC's story together with the overall universe. Not to mention the source of the REASON Halo CE even happened and thus all of MC's storyline. The changes made in Reach changes the context of the entire event, altering rationalities and situations to the point that much of what led up to the Pillar of Autumn being where it is no longer makes sense.


I'm sure behind-the-scenes of the overall universe, Halsey had a sneaking decision that there would be projects modeled after the Spartan-IIs. Heck, in The Fall of Reach Mendez says he is off to train the next generation of Spartans. I think even Halsey would know that since he told John.

And Mandalorians insignificant to the Star Wars story? LOL.

[Edited on 05.20.2011 5:16 PM PDT]

  • 05.20.2011 5:16 PM PDT


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: raganok99
I think it'd be damn good storyline instead of smoldering abomination called: Halo Reach that ruined entire CANON.

Hyperbole won't get you far bro. Bigger sci-fi universes than Halo have undergone retcons much more massive that Halo: Reach and have survived intact. Take Star Wars, the Clone Wars cartoon changes a lot, like the Mandalorian now being peaceful diplomats compared to the warriors of old. I don't like it, but it doesn't stop me from speculating with this new info in my mind. I have a feeling post-Clone War, there is going to be a shake-up in the Mando leadership and the Mandalorian will embrace their warrior culture yet again.

See? I did all that without whining about how Star Wars is ruined. Halo fans have it easy with canon.


I am in agreement with this statement. I don't like that George Lucas made the Mandolorians pacifists, but I know that things haven't really changed too drastically because eventually the Mandolorians have to become warriors again for the events that happen during and after the years of the Galactic Empire. Likewise I know that whatever is wrong or might seem wrong with Reach will be fixed, doesn't mean that the changes have to be liked, but they really are not completely canon changing and there will be work done to bridge TFoR and Reach more thoroughly.

  • 05.20.2011 5:16 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: raganok99
I think it'd be damn good storyline instead of smoldering abomination called: Halo Reach that ruined entire CANON.

Hyperbole won't get you far bro. Bigger sci-fi universes than Halo have undergone retcons much more massive that Halo: Reach and have survived intact. Take Star Wars, the Clone Wars cartoon changes a lot, like the Mandalorian now being peaceful diplomats compared to the warriors of old. I don't like it, but it doesn't stop me from speculating with this new info in my mind. I have a feeling post-Clone War, there is going to be a shake-up in the Mando leadership and the Mandalorian will embrace their warrior culture yet again.

See? I did all that without whining about how Star Wars is ruined. Halo fans have it easy with canon.


I am in agreement with this statement. I don't like that George Lucas made the Mandolorians pacifists, but I know that things haven't really changed too drastically because eventually the Mandolorians have to become warriors again for the events that happen during and after the years of the Galactic Empire. Likewise I know that whatever is wrong or might seem wrong with Reach will be fixed, doesn't mean that the changes have to be liked, but they really are not completely canon changing and there will be work done to bridge TFoR and Reach more thoroughly.

My father is one of the biggest fanmen (new term I'm trying out) of Star Wars you'll ever meet. Has he enjoyed everything Lucas has done? Hell no and he's vocal about it. And though he hates The Clone Wars, he says the canon isn't broken. He says that while he may not like it, that is the canon of Star Wars. He does not whine, does not feel betrayed, and doesn't declare the canon unrepairable. Hell, he speculates with his pals on the 501st boards and other communities.

WHy Halo fans can't is beyond me.

  • 05.20.2011 5:31 PM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: raganok99
I think it'd be damn good storyline instead of smoldering abomination called: Halo Reach that ruined entire CANON.

Hyperbole won't get you far bro. Bigger sci-fi universes than Halo have undergone retcons much more massive that Halo: Reach and have survived intact. Take Star Wars, the Clone Wars cartoon changes a lot, like the Mandalorian now being peaceful diplomats compared to the warriors of old. I don't like it, but it doesn't stop me from speculating with this new info in my mind. I have a feeling post-Clone War, there is going to be a shake-up in the Mando leadership and the Mandalorian will embrace their warrior culture yet again.

See? I did all that without whining about how Star Wars is ruined. Halo fans have it easy with canon.


I am in agreement with this statement. I don't like that George Lucas made the Mandolorians pacifists, but I know that things haven't really changed too drastically because eventually the Mandolorians have to become warriors again for the events that happen during and after the years of the Galactic Empire. Likewise I know that whatever is wrong or might seem wrong with Reach will be fixed, doesn't mean that the changes have to be liked, but they really are not completely canon changing and there will be work done to bridge TFoR and Reach more thoroughly.

My father is one of the biggest fanmen (new term I'm trying out) of Star Wars you'll ever meet. Has he enjoyed everything Lucas has done? Hell no and he's vocal about it. And though he hates The Clone Wars, he says the canon isn't broken. He says that while he may not like it, that is the canon of Star Wars. He does not whine, does not feel betrayed, and doesn't declare the canon unrepairable. Hell, he speculates with his pals on the 501st boards and other communities.

WHy Halo fans can't is beyond me.
I also agree, Halo had consistent canon for almost 9 years before the first major retcon (Evolutions). Other universes get retconned a lot more than Reach. Even Mass Effect was retconned in the new comics, and that comic was by ME's lead writer! Warhammer 40k get's retconned every almost edition (orks' reproduction being retconned almost 5 times).

All things considered Halo has it good especially since they don't have someone like Mac Walters (who the ME fanbase call "a talentless hack") or Matt Ward (who manages to create rules and background material that makes Reach's error look like typos).

  • 05.20.2011 5:43 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
I'm sure behind-the-scenes of the overall universe, Halsey had a sneaking decision that there would be projects modeled after the Spartan-IIs. Heck, in The Fall of Reach Mendez says he is off to train the next generation of Spartans. I think even Halsey would know that since he told John.

That was when it was assumed a second batch of II's would be made. This had no relation to the III's and Halsey was going to be in control of that second batch (which never happened because the funding was diverted to the III's instead without Halsey being notified beyond "its too expensive, we're stopping").

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
And Mandalorians insignificant to the Star Wars story? LOL.

Depends on which story you are talking about. Cause the main storyline of Star Wars (aka the trilogies) seems to have little to no care about the general disposition of the Mandalorian race. And your "impressions" on them mean little, seeing as it is more than likely derived from a few characters in positions that required them to be "diplomatic". But that's as far as my assumptions will go. Only reason I don't delve into Star Wars canon much is because its hard to tell where the canon ends and the fanon begins.

  • 05.20.2011 5:46 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Xd00999
I was always under the impression that the Suppercarrier was more akin to a Aircraft Carrier: strong, but it's true force comes from the fact that it has several thousand support craft (the covenant version) on hand kill every thing that might threaten it.
The SMACs are quite vulnerable to plasma fire, the UNSC could have moved the away to protect them from the Energy Projector which could have done untold damage to the SMACs and the ship could have easily stayed out of range.

A SMAC should pulverise large sections of it and reduce its combat efficiency severely. A few more would finish the job. A SMAC round travels at 12'000 km/s. The Supercarrier was in low orbit over Reach. There is no out of range of the SMAC's here. That thing would be crippled within 3 seconds of being spotted. That is the sort of Reach we knew, not this piss poor thing conveyed in the game.

And if it is strong enough to resist 20 of Humanity's strongest weapons bearing down upon it then it does not matter if the energy projector is its only weapon. The UNSC would lose through attrition. There also is not much point in stealth either.

Posted by: Xd00999
The Carrier might also be one-of-a-kind:

Just like the teleportation conduits, and the cloaking generators for an entire ship, and the (Obvious) silent transitioning slipspace drives. None of these things are seen anywhere else in canon other than Reach and they go against what we understood of the Covenant's abilities.

I guess you should probably explain how the Covenant could develop this stuff, and then how the UNSC resisted THAT sort of power for 30 years. All of these Ad Hoc explanations may offer the answer of "what" but they do a crap job on the "how/why" part.

Posted by: Xd00999
Sigma Octanus was not humanity's second most important planet, Reach is. By the time they nuked Octanus, it was clear the planet was lost, whereas in Reach they thought they could still win the battle. They would not nuke a planet they are trying to protect. Even though it was in the middle of a dessert who knows what could happen? The damage to the environment would still be significant and it would be much harder to maintain the illusion that Reach was not under attack which was the only thing that was preventing planet wide chaos.

Well I am not sure about you but I am pretty certain that the effects from a nuclear explosion would not be as bad as the glassing that the Supercarrier carried out after being discovered. Three enormous explosions hit that area anyway. Which is no surprise, given what the Covenant do to Human worlds. Given the choice of attacking a Covenant vessel to prevent it from doing any damage (Which the UNSC knows can be great, and knows will happen in some form), or letting it get away into orbit where it can hit the planet with energy lances (In which case your information blackout is toast), what would the UNSC do?

In Reach they allow it to get away without attempting to stop it, and a huge area of land is glassed anyway, like what always happens.

Posted by: Xd00999
The changes to canon do not significantly affect the canon as a whole, only the battle of Reach was affected. Reach did not disprove any theories.

As is being discussed. An answer seems far from conclusive.

  • 05.20.2011 5:47 PM PDT

Posted by: anton1792
Well...

They did not change their security protocols after the Ascendant Justice was taken. One month later the Bloodied Spirit was taken.

They did not use ancient radio signals from Earth's past to triangulate Earth's position.

It did not occur to them early on in the war, before the Cole Protocol came out (The actual thing, not the book) to take navigation data.

The Forerunner Fleet is an interesting example, because I think it suggests nothing but linear thinking. Take powerful warships and smash, smash, smash. They were uncomfortable with their own assets and ability to perform in a war like this, so went for bigger guns, not better tactics.

I would perhaps say that a competent commander would take care with the numbers, try to minimise loses.

Before Humanity, they had not fought a massive war since the founding of the Covenant. Since then, they had just fought species that were confined to their own solar system. For 3000 years they have fought nothing but that, and grunt rebellions and small heretic groups. There is nothing to justify them keeping their tactics honed over the millennia. The behaviour in Reach is quite "wut?" I think.

What examples are there for their innovative war tactics?


I can't remember off the top of my head, and Halopedia is so horribly vague about it, how did Blue Team get on the Bloodied Spirit again? The only real similarity that I remember between the commandeering of the Ascendant Justice and the Bloodied Spirit is that the atmosphere was vented from the ship to kill off the crew.

Could they even pick them up? The universe is a pretty big place, there is a chance they could receive Human radio signals, but it's a very slim one due to the whole size of the universe. And I can't remember, but don't they get more garbled and "decay" the longer the signal is out there?

I'm sure that the UNSC would have done the same if they could have, it's only natural to use the bigger stick in war if you can.

Perhaps so, usually whoever has a numerical advantage though is not usually as careful as they should be, as long as they can afford the losses at least.

That is all true, and I think certainly plays a part in their overconfidence and lack of tactics other Zurg rushing the enemy. But that doesn't mean they are incapable of coming up with tactics.

Well I would point out Halo: Reach but that's what we're disputing so that's not really good evidence :P So I'll just point out Sigma Octanus, they had that stealthed ship hiding out there and receiving information from the surface of Sigma Octanus IV. And then again in TFoR at the Battle of Reach sending ships in to distract the UNSC forces from them releasing dropships to the surface of the planet.

Well that is fine. It is very ad hoc, but I could accept that. Or changing Supercarrier in First Strike to Assault Carriers, or just carriers.

The only thing is if it so powerful, why is there a need for stealth?


Thank you. You're probably one of the most reasonable people I've debated the issue of Reach with, and for that I thank you :) You're at least willing to hear me out.

In order to maintain the element of surprise, I'd assume they sent the LNoS because of the amount of resources it would be able to carry. It seemed to me that the Covenant forces encountered up until the 14th were there to set up shop and prepare for the arrival of more ships and to sniff out the UNSC's defenses around Reach as well as sabotage work like that at Visegrad Relay.

Well, in order to stay in geosynchronous orbit they must have manoeuvring thrusters, and something to counteract the firing forces. They will have to be pretty powerful. I don't see how it can't be moved quick enough.

Reach is not all that bigger than Earth, about 3000km greater diameter. SMAC's fire at "point four tenths" c, going by TFoR. That means that if just one SMAC has a line of sight on tLNoS, then in under 2 seconds the round will cross the entirety of Reach's diameter. It travels at 12'000km/s. The Supercarrier is going nowhere. I can't see how it can hide anywhere near Reach.


I more meant that it'd be more difficult to move them at a moments notice, or if it'd be all that wise to bring them within firing range of the LNoS. The thruster may be powerful enough to move it to a new place, but part of me doesn't really think so, the thrusters would be more for keeping it on track and they would thus be positioned at multiple different angles, not sure if it'd able to move around through space on their own very well.

Well if the SMACs are all in one area they'd have a harder time covering all or most of Reach, and I don't think the LNoS would have parked itself within line of sight with the SMACs, or out of their range at least.

  • 05.20.2011 5:47 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

Eric Nylund has retconned himself and no one mentions it, that's what I find funny. I've heard people complain about having Elites appear in Reach, even though they had been mentioned to be in the war as early as 2537.

  • 05.20.2011 5:49 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
That was when it was assumed a second batch of II's would be made. This had no relation to the III's and Halsey was going to be in control of that second batch (which never happened because the funding was diverted to the III's instead without Halsey being notified beyond "its too expensive, we're stopping").

And yet new Spartans were on the table and Halsey knew she was being watched and her scientific finds were a gold mine for anyone wanting to create their own project, as noted by JAVELIN. You honestly think she never speculated why one of the most successful programs to the war would be halted and the only reason she was given was "Too expensive"?

I highly doubt she just forgot.

[Edited on 05.20.2011 5:53 PM PDT]

  • 05.20.2011 5:52 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Eric Nylund has retconned himself and no one mentions it, that's what I find funny. I've heard people complain about having Elites appear in Reach, even though they had been mentioned to be in the war as early as 2537.

No, what is irritating was that they didn't appear on the battlefield until just before Reach (I think at Sigma Octanus is where they were first seen? Not really sure.), and MC hadn't fought one directly till on the station. Yet there are many parts of the newer fiction that state they have been around much longer. Same has happened with Brutes.

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
And yet new Spartans were on the table and Halsey knew she was being watched and her scientific finds were a gold mine for anyone wanting to create their own project, as noted by JAVELIN. You honestly think she never speculated why one of the most successful programs to the war would be halted and the only reason she was given was "Too expensive"?

I highly doubt she just forgot.

Do you know how much work it took to make a Spartan II? On top of that, the next batch was getting too old for the program as well as the number of matches being far smaller this time around. It probably cost nearly as much to make the first batch of 75 Spartan II's in conjunction with their armor as it took to field the entire first company of 300 Spartan III's, maybe even more. I don't have my copy of Reach to give you the direct quote from the book but she actually thought that the current II's were the last of the Spartans, and humanity's last hope. It was not until after Reach that she stumbled upon some files from Ackerson that pointed her to Onyx and the III's.

[Edited on 05.20.2011 6:04 PM PDT]

  • 05.20.2011 5:59 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

sorry, double

[Edited on 05.20.2011 6:03 PM PDT]

  • 05.20.2011 6:03 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Eric Nylund has retconned himself and no one mentions it, that's what I find funny. I've heard people complain about having Elites appear in Reach, even though they had been mentioned to be in the war as early as 2537.

No, what is irritating was that they didn't appear on the battlefield until just before Reach (I think at Sigma Octanus is where they were first seen? Not really sure.), and MC hadn't fought one directly till on the station. Yet there are many parts of the newer fiction that state they have been around much longer. Same has happened with Brutes.


Those were Hunters that they fought on Sigma Octanus. But Elites had been shown to be in battles as early as the missions of Alpha Company, although people tend to blame Reach for the "canon breaking", even though they were retconned....4 years before.

  • 05.20.2011 6:05 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Do you know how much work it took to make a Spartan II? On top of that, the next batch was getting too old for the program as well as the number of matches being far smaller this time around. It probably cost nearly as much to make the first batch of 75 Spartan II's in conjunction with their armor as it took to field the entire first company of 300 Spartan III's, maybe even more. I don't have my copy of Reach to give you the direct quote from the book but she actually thought that the current II's were the last of the Spartans, and humanity's last hope. It was not until after Reach that she stumbled upon some files from Ackerson that pointed her to Onyx and the III's.

Yes, the Spartan-II Program and MJOLNIR was expensive. Even during war you need funds. However, just because the Class-II Program was canceled, why would that rule out other programs? Halsey mentioned JAVELIN as a possible possible program for augmentating soldiers and BRAVADO as some sort of systemic that was effective against combating the Covenant. She had no knowledge Noble Team were Spartan-IIIs, all she knew was that they were augmented and she didn't make them.

  • 05.20.2011 6:08 PM PDT

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
What matters is she now knows of Spartans that are not hers before she should have. Even in First Strike she did not know they were III's, just that there were other Spartans and her journey to Onyx only proved her suspicions correct.


Why does it matter? She had no time to go looking for information to confirm who or what Noble were, other than what her eyes and and those two meetings with Noble told her.

And if anything, knowing that there are other Spartans out there makes the information she gleaned from Ackerson's files all the much more significant to her and makes her actions near the end of the book and in the beginning of GoO that much more believable. It is not in character for her to just suddenly go running off the wildest hunch.

The change of a fairly insignificant race's disposition does not alter much. This is the alteration of the event in Halo that ties much of MC's story together with the overall universe. Not to mention the source of the REASON Halo CE even happened and thus all of MC's storyline. The changes made in Reach changes the context of the entire event, altering rationalities and situations to the point that much of what led up to the Pillar of Autumn being where it is no longer makes sense.

Insignificant you say? Hahahaha, oh gosh, that's a hoot, the Mandolorians are anything bit insignificant to the story of Star Wars. They are one the key shapers of its universe, especially in the earlier years of it, and their society and beliefs were part of the training of the Clone Troopers (you know, the guys who ultimately became those the Storm Troopers we all know and love).

  • 05.20.2011 6:12 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Yes, the Spartan-II Program and MJOLNIR was expensive. Even during war you need funds. However, just because the Class-II Program was canceled, why would that rule out other programs? Halsey mentioned JAVELIN as a possible possible program for augmentating soldiers and BRAVADO as some sort of systemic that was effective against combating the Covenant. She had no knowledge Noble Team were Spartan-IIIs, all she knew was that they were augmented and she didn't make them.


Posted by: OrderedComa
Why does it matter? She had no time to go looking for information to confirm who or what Noble were, other than what her eyes and and those two meetings with Noble told her.

And if anything, knowing that there are other Spartans out there makes the information she gleaned from Ackerson's files all the much more significant to her and makes her actions near the end of the book and in the beginning of GoO that much more believable. It is not in character for her to just suddenly go running off the wildest hunch.

The file was more than a hunch. The point is she had no knowledge of other Spartans PERIOD. One can easily say now that she should have known but when the book was written (Fall of Reach) there was no evidence or even question that her Spartan II's were the ONLY Spartans. There was no reason for her to suspect everything yet here you are employing hindsight as if it should have been obvious to her.

Posted by: OrderedComa
Insignificant you say? Hahahaha, oh gosh, that's a hoot, the Mandolorians are anything bit insignificant to the story of Star Wars. They are one the key shapers of its universe, especially in the earlier years of it, and their society and beliefs were part of the training of the Clone Troopers (you know, the guys who ultimately became those the Storm Troopers we all know and love).

First off I already stated that my knowledge of the Star Wars lore is minimal because, unlike Halo's canon before Reach, it is a mish-mash of actual canon and fanon. I didn't quite associate the name with the proper race when I responded. I forgot they are the ones who exist as Bounty Hunters like Boba and Jengo.

  • 05.20.2011 6:41 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Yes, the Spartan-II Program and MJOLNIR was expensive. Even during war you need funds. However, just because the Class-II Program was canceled, why would that rule out other programs? Halsey mentioned JAVELIN as a possible possible program for augmentating soldiers and BRAVADO as some sort of systemic that was effective against combating the Covenant. She had no knowledge Noble Team were Spartan-IIIs, all she knew was that they were augmented and she didn't make them.


Posted by: OrderedComa
Why does it matter? She had no time to go looking for information to confirm who or what Noble were, other than what her eyes and and those two meetings with Noble told her.

And if anything, knowing that there are other Spartans out there makes the information she gleaned from Ackerson's files all the much more significant to her and makes her actions near the end of the book and in the beginning of GoO that much more believable. It is not in character for her to just suddenly go running off the wildest hunch.

The file was more than a hunch. The point is she had no knowledge of other Spartans PERIOD. One can easily say now that she should have known but when the book was written (Fall of Reach) there was no evidence or even question that her Spartan II's were the ONLY Spartans. There was no reason for her to suspect everything yet here you are employing hindsight as if it should have been obvious to her.


So now we have more background information on Halsey and her thoughts. The problem with constantly bringing up The Fall of Reach is that it's about 10 years old. At that time, I doubt anyone at Bungie or Microsoft was thinking about Spartan-IIIs or anything but Halo: Combat Evolved. As universes grow, new information is imagined and placed into canon. Quite honestly, TFoR is outdated, new sources of canon besides Halo: Reach contradict it and nearly make it worthless. I imagine that is why I hear a rumor that 343 is re-re-releasing The Fall of Reach to make it the definitive account of the conflict.

Things change.

  • 05.20.2011 6:47 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
I imagine that is why I hear a rumor that 343 is re-re-releasing The Fall of Reach to make it the definitive account of the conflict.

Things change.
The new editions are already out.The only real difference is the addition of an extra chapter which does not further the novels story very much and changing the fleet from 300 to 700 ships.
On a side note, the typo that says Reach fell in 2542 is still there.

  • 05.20.2011 7:10 PM PDT

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
The file was more than a hunch. The point is she had no knowledge of other Spartans PERIOD. One can easily say now that she should have known but when the book was written (Fall of Reach) there was no evidence or even question that her Spartan II's were the ONLY Spartans. There was no reason for her to suspect everything yet here you are employing hindsight as if it should have been obvious to her.


A: The Journal mentions her suspisions.
B: As cobra said, Halsey is not the type of person to go off trying to find the Spartan III's based of 2-3 vague files.
C: Again, as Cobra said, TFoR is the oldest information.

  • 05.20.2011 7:24 PM PDT
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Posted by: ninjakenzen
Reach got trolled by bad story telling.

This is why us canon freaks are disappointed.

NINJA! Dude, what's up?

  • 05.20.2011 7:46 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
So now we have more background information on Halsey and her thoughts. The problem with constantly bringing up The Fall of Reach is that it's about 10 years old. At that time, I doubt anyone at Bungie or Microsoft was thinking about Spartan-IIIs or anything but Halo: Combat Evolved. As universes grow, new information is imagined and placed into canon. Quite honestly, TFoR is outdated, new sources of canon besides Halo: Reach contradict it and nearly make it worthless. I imagine that is why I hear a rumor that 343 is re-re-releasing The Fall of Reach to make it the definitive account of the conflict.

Things change.

Actually, Bungie has stated very much so that since Halo 2 they have had a very detailed and planned out storyline as well as incredibly fleshed out universal events within that timeline. Yet now, 6 years later we are running into canon problems. Severe ones at that. I wouldn't mind if Bungie flat out said "the story is different, so we're reprinting some stuff to fix it". But instead they made a wonderful statement that it fit perfectly before they even attempted to fix it. And those attempts are mild.


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
A: The Journal mentions her suspisions.
B: As cobra said, Halsey is not the type of person to go off trying to find the Spartan III's based of 2-3 vague files.
C: Again, as Cobra said, TFoR is the oldest information.

A: Yes, the journal still conflicts with the book, unless the new definitive editions changed that part (from the above post it seems they haven't).
B: They weren't vague, not to mention she had no where else to go. Reach was kaput.
C: It isn't just the oldest, but the first. It was the first piece of Halo fiction before even the games! This is why I'm so frustrated that they stomped all over what literally started it all!

  • 05.20.2011 8:13 PM PDT


Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
A: The Journal mentions her suspisions.
B: As cobra said, Halsey is not the type of person to go off trying to find the Spartan III's based of 2-3 vague files.
C: Again, as Cobra said, TFoR is the oldest information.

A: Yes, the journal still conflicts with the book, unless the new definitive editions changed that part (from the above post it seems they haven't).
B: They weren't vague, not to mention she had no where else to go. Reach was kaput.
C: It isn't just the oldest, but the first. It was the first piece of Halo fiction before even the games! This is why I'm so frustrated that they stomped all over what literally started it all!


Well, technically it's the most likely to be changed slightly, or majorly, being the oldest. Even though it was probably wrote after the CE campaign was decided on.

Well, Dr Halsey certainly could have gone to Earth with everybody else instead of stealing the prowler.

  • 05.20.2011 8:18 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Well, technically it's the most likely to be changed slightly, or majorly, being the oldest. Even though it was probably wrote after the CE campaign was decided on.

Not sure about that. The CE campaign went through many revisions as it was changed from RTS, to TPS to FPS. So I wouldn't be surprised that the book could have been finished before Halo CE even made it to Microsoft. Still, this is something we don't really know. Alterations are fine, but in this case it really does feel more like complete disregard. The only reason I even feel that way is because Bungie had the ignorance to state that it fit perfectly with the original book when it was plain as day it didn't. It was as if they hadn't even read it.

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Well, Dr Halsey certainly could have gone to Earth with everybody else instead of stealing the prowler.

Halsey was always influenced by curiosity more than practicality if I remember. Especially seeing as Cortana is the exact same way.

  • 05.20.2011 8:23 PM PDT
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Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: RKOSNAKE

So, what was so special about 29 Aug 2552? This was the very first time a "smart" AI had "piggy-backed" in the Mjolnir Mk. V powered assault armor during "live-fire" simulated combat conditions.

Taken directly from Bungie and while I do recognize that I'm wrong in the testing thing, this may as well shut the people who complain about Noble Team having MJOLNIR already.


We all know that NOBLE had Mark V before the rest of the Spartan II's(for some godforsaken reason that we'll probably never know.)

Bungie explained this before release. Their excuse was MK V was finished in 2551 on Reach. NOBLE got it first since they were stationed there while the S-II's were too busy hopping across the galaxy to get theirs.

  • 05.20.2011 8:46 PM PDT