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This topic has moved here: Subject: Just what is so criminally wrong about Halo: Reach?
  • Subject: Just what is so criminally wrong about Halo: Reach?
Subject: Just what is so criminally wrong about Halo: Reach?

"There are those who said this day would never come. What are they to say now?"
-A Great Prophet.

This is crazy. I can not believe you all forget that the books are based on the game. The games are what the halo series is about. The Fall of Reach, is BASED OFF OF HALO CE!!! The books don't take authority over ANY of the games. If that is how Halo Reach was made, that's how it was made. You honestly don't play the game, because there wasn't any space battles? Wow no nukes? Who Cares! Ooooo cry me a river, they didn't have a SMAC. The world is going to end. You're missing the fact that it is a Game. The story is not based on the actual fall of Reach, but more on the story of Noble team. You should be marveling that Halsey was even included in the game. you should be jumping for joy that Spartan 117 and Buck made an appearance. The games are the most important storyline. Don't discredit the game because you can't get your rocks off without a nuke or 100 space ships

  • 05.20.2011 8:52 PM PDT


Posted by: Nameless Oracle

Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: RKOSNAKE

So, what was so special about 29 Aug 2552? This was the very first time a "smart" AI had "piggy-backed" in the Mjolnir Mk. V powered assault armor during "live-fire" simulated combat conditions.

Taken directly from Bungie and while I do recognize that I'm wrong in the testing thing, this may as well shut the people who complain about Noble Team having MJOLNIR already.


We all know that NOBLE had Mark V before the rest of the Spartan II's(for some godforsaken reason that we'll probably never know.)

Bungie explained this before release. Their excuse was MK V was finished in 2551 on Reach. NOBLE got it first since they were stationed there while the S-II's were too busy hopping across the galaxy to get theirs.


Which is another half-assed explanation considering that the MJOLNIR project was tightly wound into the Spartan II program. The Mark Vs were meant solely for her own Spartans, who were the only ones who could physically wear it. As such Halsey would have known if ONI was stealing her newest and most important armor to give it to another ONI section, which could only be another Spartan group, because who else would wear such armor. Therefore, Halsey must have known about the rival Spartan IIIs and that's something she can easily trace with her superior AIs(I mean, she did do some work ONI's virtual defenses) . That said, you then run into the inconsistency of her not knowing about the S-IIIs.

  • 05.20.2011 9:03 PM PDT

Adepto In Meus Campester
Posted by: ParagonRenegade
You were totally and absolutely correct in every way, I don't know why we were arguing, you're so amazing I should never have doubted you.

Posted by: Mohegan Spartan
-snip-

Read this.

  • 05.21.2011 10:45 AM PDT

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
The file was more than a hunch. The point is she had no knowledge of other Spartans PERIOD. One can easily say now that she should have known but when the book was written (Fall of Reach) there was no evidence or even question that her Spartan II's were the ONLY Spartans. There was no reason for her to suspect everything yet here you are employing hindsight as if it should have been obvious to her.


I'm not saying it should have been obvious at all, I am merely pointing out facts that she could have (and did) observe, as her Journal points out. And while she may be able to hack into and dig through ONI's files it take time and she can't go everywhere. And when she met Noble she says she doesn't have the time to go looking for where they came from. And before she was able to steal the files from Ackerson's office she had no reliable proof that there was another Spartan program going on, she had a strong hunch but nothing to really back it up.

First off I already stated that my knowledge of the Star Wars lore is minimal because, unlike Halo's canon before Reach, it is a mish-mash of actual canon and fanon. I didn't quite associate the name with the proper race when I responded. I forgot they are the ones who exist as Bounty Hunters like Boba and Jengo.

Canon is not as clearly defined with Star Wars as it is with Halo or other franchises, that much is true, but I don't see why you think most of it is fanon or whatever.

  • 05.21.2011 11:03 AM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: OrderedComa
Canon is not as clearly defined with Star Wars as it is with Halo or other franchises, that much is true, but I don't see why you think most of it is fanon or whatever.

I never said that, I said it was a mish-mash. Aka, not clearly defined. Even some of the published novels aren't official canon. A good quote from Lucas explaining this complexity with Star Wars canon:

Lucas: "But there's three worlds: There's my world that I made up, there's the licensing world that's the books, the comics, all that kind of stuff, the games, which is their world, and then there's the fans' world, which is also very rich in imagination, but they don't always mesh. All I'm in charge of is my world. I can't be in charge of those other people's world, because I can't keep up with it."

[Edited on 05.21.2011 12:40 PM PDT]

  • 05.21.2011 12:40 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

Posted by: A Puzzled Mind

Posted by: Nameless Oracle

Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: RKOSNAKE

So, what was so special about 29 Aug 2552? This was the very first time a "smart" AI had "piggy-backed" in the Mjolnir Mk. V powered assault armor during "live-fire" simulated combat conditions.

Taken directly from Bungie and while I do recognize that I'm wrong in the testing thing, this may as well shut the people who complain about Noble Team having MJOLNIR already.


We all know that NOBLE had Mark V before the rest of the Spartan II's(for some godforsaken reason that we'll probably never know.)

Bungie explained this before release. Their excuse was MK V was finished in 2551 on Reach. NOBLE got it first since they were stationed there while the S-II's were too busy hopping across the galaxy to get theirs.


Which is another half-assed explanation considering that the MJOLNIR project was tightly wound into the Spartan II program. The Mark Vs were meant solely for her own Spartans, who were the only ones who could physically wear it. As such Halsey would have known if ONI was stealing her newest and most important armor to give it to another ONI section, which could only be another Spartan group, because who else would wear such armor. Therefore, Halsey must have known about the rival Spartan IIIs and that's something she can easily trace with her superior AIs(I mean, she did do some work ONI's virtual defenses) . That said, you then run into the inconsistency of her not knowing about the S-IIIs.



Private manufacturers exist, yo.

  • 05.21.2011 1:11 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Private manufacturers exist, yo.

How many private manufacturers create variations of the M16? Usually each private manufacturer makes few items for the military, maybe another manufacturer makes additions for those items. But making entirely new variants? Usually that means the previous manufacturer lost funding.

Its easy to say "these exist", but understanding what "these" are can make what seems simple much more complicated.

  • 05.21.2011 1:31 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Private manufacturers exist, yo.

How many private manufacturers create variations of the M16? Usually each private manufacturer makes few items for the military, maybe another manufacturer makes additions for those items. But making entirely new variants? Usually that means the previous manufacturer lost funding.

Its easy to say "these exist", but understanding what "these" are can make what seems simple much more complicated.


I'm pretty sure if they can make an entire armor with the same purpose and possibly shielding before Halsey (Hayabusa, 2536) Then they can make some sets of Mark V.

  • 05.21.2011 1:36 PM PDT


Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K

How many private manufacturers create variations of the M16? Usually each private manufacturer makes few items for the military, maybe another manufacturer makes additions for those items. But making entirely new variants? Usually that means the previous manufacturer lost funding.

Its easy to say "these exist", but understanding what "these" are can make what seems simple much more complicated.


The answer would be: Loads.
For example the C-7, C-8, CQ-311, Khaybar KH2002, T65...
Nearly all military equipment is made under license by someone.

I bring to your attention MJOLNIR BLACK, ROGUE, MK V(b), Security and HAYABUSA. Just some of the power-armour related projects tied to the SPARTANs. It's not hard to believe one or more of these manufacturers were contracted to make new MJOLNIR armour for the IIIs.

  • 05.21.2011 1:40 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: OrderedComa
I can't remember off the top of my head, and Halopedia is so horribly vague about it, how did Blue Team get on the Bloodied Spirit again? The only real similarity that I remember between the commandeering of the Ascendant Justice and the Bloodied Spirit is that the atmosphere was vented from the ship to kill off the crew.

The manner in which that was done is an example of the Covenant's dogmatic approach to things. Using the same methods that Cortana had used, and the exact same weaknesses that she exploited, they vented the atmosphere of the vessel. The Covenant changed nothing, and it was so easy that by simply plugging in a datapad the ship could be taken. An AI was not needed at this point. The method on which they got aboard the Bloodied Spirit was exactly the same method they used to get on board the Unyielding Heirophant, by stowing away on board a dropship. The UNSC would overhaul all of their security protocols if this happened to them, but the Covenant did not.

Posted by: OrderedComa
Could they even pick them up? The universe is a pretty big place, there is a chance they could receive Human radio signals, but it's a very slim one due to the whole size of the universe. And I can't remember, but don't they get more garbled and "decay" the longer the signal is out there?

That is only if you want to get any usable information from it. However, just detecting a periodic signal would be a case of listening for a while, filtering out the background noise and then summing up what you are left with. Get 3 separate points of detection and then you can triangulate.

Posted by: OrderedComa
I'm sure that the UNSC would have done the same if they could have, it's only natural to use the bigger stick in war if you can.

It is, but Regret explicitly stated that the Covenant was not great enough to do the job. By the time Reach fell, the Covenant was giving everything they had. If they were attacked by another race of even nearly equal power then the Covenant would not last, because as Regret said, the Human war would "Leave them defenceless" regardless of whether they could defeat Humanity or not. Given the Covenant's massive advantage over Humanity, there is no reason why this should be the case.

Posted by: OrderedComa
Perhaps so, usually whoever has a numerical advantage though is not usually as careful as they should be, as long as they can afford the losses at least.

It should not act as a primary tactic though at least.

Posted by: OrderedComa
That is all true, and I think certainly plays a part in their overconfidence and lack of tactics other than Zerg rushing the enemy. But that doesn't mean they are incapable of coming up with tactics.

Okay perhaps it does not. It more explains why they have not used tactics, but in combination with other things, such as the above, I think it all suggests that they cannot. Some things just do not occur to some people. Combined with their religious dogma that essentially condemns independent thought, it is no surprise.

Posted by: OrderedComa
Well I would point out Halo: Reach but that's what we're disputing so that's not really good evidence :P So I'll just point out Sigma Octanus, they had that stealthed ship hiding out there and receiving information from the surface of Sigma Octanus IV. And then again in TFoR at the Battle of Reach sending ships in to distract the UNSC forces from them releasing dropships to the surface of the planet.

I'll give you these. Not on the same scale of Reach but okay.

Posted by: OrderedComa
Well, in order to stay in geosynchronous orbit they must have manoeuvring thrusters, and something to counteract the firing forces. They will have to be pretty powerful. I don't see how it can't be moved quick enough.

Reach is not all that bigger than Earth, about 3000km greater diameter. SMAC's fire at "point four tenths" c, going by TFoR. That means that if just one SMAC has a line of sight on tLNoS, then in under 2 seconds the round will cross the entirety of Reach's diameter. It travels at 12'000km/s. The Supercarrier is going nowhere. I can't see how it can hide anywhere near Reach.

I more meant that it'd be more difficult to move them at a moments notice, or if it'd be all that wise to bring them within firing range of the LNoS. The thruster may be powerful enough to move it to a new place, but part of me doesn't really think so, the thrusters would be more for keeping it on track and they would thus be positioned at multiple different angles, not sure if it'd able to move around through space on their own very well.

Well if the SMACs are all in one area they'd have a harder time covering all or most of Reach, and I don't think the LNoS would have parked itself within line of sight with the SMACs, or out of their range at least.

Wait. I realise that debating whther the SMAC's can be moved quickly does not really go anywhere useful. Unless the UNSC positioned them all in the one place over Reach then there should not be any issues with the Supercarrier. Were they?

Theoretically, you only need 3 satellites to ensure that all of the planet is covered. We have 20 ODPs. Unless the UNSC was concentrating them all in one area then all of Reach should be covered. The Supercarrier was in low orbit, clearly at a distance less than that of Reach's diameter which means that it will be in range of at least 1 station. And as you know, that round will cross the distance in the blink of an eye.

I just do not understand this part at all really. The explantion may be that they were on the other side of the planet, but why were they there. That defeats the purpose of their existence.

  • 05.21.2011 2:01 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Mohegan Spartan
This is crazy. I can not believe you all forget that the books are based on the game. The games are what the halo series is about. The Fall of Reach, is BASED OFF OF HALO CE!!! The books don't take authority over ANY of the games. If that is how Halo Reach was made, that's how it was made. You honestly don't play the game, because there wasn't any space battles? Wow no nukes? Who Cares! Ooooo cry me a river, they didn't have a SMAC. The world is going to end. You're missing the fact that it is a Game. The story is not based on the actual fall of Reach, but more on the story of Noble team. You should be marveling that Halsey was even included in the game. you should be jumping for joy that Spartan 117 and Buck made an appearance. The games are the most important storyline. Don't discredit the game because you can't get your rocks off without a nuke or 100 space ships

Games and books come from the same source.

Your "Games>Books" trump card does not work as well as you would like to think.

  • 05.21.2011 2:18 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: RotaryCookie
The answer would be: Loads.
For example the C-7, C-8, CQ-311, Khaybar KH2002, T65...
Nearly all military equipment is made under license by someone.

I bring to your attention MJOLNIR BLACK, ROGUE, MK V(b), Security and HAYABUSA. Just some of the power-armour related projects tied to the SPARTANs. It's not hard to believe one or more of these manufacturers were contracted to make new MJOLNIR armour for the IIIs.

Yes, the C-7 and C-8 are merely internationally manufactured, slightly updated versions of the M16 while the US military uses pretty much the A4 exclusively. These variants have conditions, not just to be different or fulfill specific roles. They are just manufactured by different people.

  • 05.21.2011 2:19 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Mohegan Spartan
This is crazy. I can not believe you all forget that the books are based on the game. The games are what the halo series is about. The Fall of Reach, is BASED OFF OF HALO CE!!! The books don't take authority over ANY of the games. If that is how Halo Reach was made, that's how it was made. You honestly don't play the game, because there wasn't any space battles? Wow no nukes? Who Cares! Ooooo cry me a river, they didn't have a SMAC. The world is going to end. You're missing the fact that it is a Game. The story is not based on the actual fall of Reach, but more on the story of Noble team. You should be marveling that Halsey was even included in the game. you should be jumping for joy that Spartan 117 and Buck made an appearance. The games are the most important storyline. Don't discredit the game because you can't get your rocks off without a nuke or 100 space ships

Games and books come from the same source.

Your "Games>Books" trump card does not work as well as you would like to think.


"Halo 'canon' can quite easily be viewed in a similar way as the kind of canon system in place with Star Wars. A certain hierarchy of priority. In other words, different levels of canon where the higher levels will override the lower ones whenever there is a contradiction.
Everything that Bungie has ever approved is canonical. But even then, certain things trump others. In order of canonical influence:

- The games rank first
- Published materials (books, comics, soundtrack liner notes etc.) rank second
- Marketing and PR materials third

And there's one codicil: the more recent items trump the older ones. So, for example, if some aspect of Halo 3's fiction contradicted Halo 2's, Halo 3's would be the gold standard.

Bungie doesn't like to retcon (i.e., deliberately change previously established facts), but sometimes it's necessary. Take for example the issue of the number of human worlds. The truth about the "800+" number? That was made up by a non-Bungie employee and never approved by us before the Halo: CE promotional website went live.

As for some of the other issues raised, chiefly Jenkins' age and UNSC foot-dragging on fielding the BR55? I will only say that some marines have spent a very long time in cryo-sleep and that putting an entirely new weapon into service during a war -- especially a war that spans multiple star systems -- is no small order.

That being said, I'm constantly impressed by how close attention you all pay to the details. Don't ever stop keeping us honest! And we'll do our best to keep you reliably entertained :-)

- Joseph"


Joseph Staten, Bungie's Director of Cinematics and Lead Writer.

  • 05.21.2011 2:21 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: RKOSNAKE
So tearing pages out the Halo Story Bible only means something when it is for a game and not a book?

You can take comfort in trump cards of canon, but it does not change the fact that there are red ink lines getting put through material in the original canon source. An inconsistency in the Halo Story Bible is an inconsistency regardless of whether it was conceived for a game or a book.

  • 05.21.2011 2:37 PM PDT


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: RKOSNAKE
So tearing pages out the Halo Story Bible only means something when it is for a game and not a book?

You can take comfort in trump cards of canon, but it does not change the fact that there are red ink lines getting put through material in the original canon source. An inconsistency in the Halo Story Bible is an inconsistency regardless of whether it was conceived for a game or a book.



However, we don't know if pages have been torn out of the halo story bible.

For all we know, pages have been added, the ones currently in there untouched. Or, everything in Reach was already part of it.

  • 05.21.2011 2:49 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: RKOSNAKE
So tearing pages out the Halo Story Bible only means something when it is for a game and not a book?

You can take comfort in trump cards of canon, but it does not change the fact that there are red ink lines getting put through material in the original canon source. An inconsistency in the Halo Story Bible is an inconsistency regardless of whether it was conceived for a game or a book.


However, we don't know if pages have been torn out of the halo story bible.

For all we know, pages have been added, the ones currently in there untouched. Or, everything in Reach was already part of it.

Speaking in general though, not just about Reach.

  • 05.21.2011 3:02 PM PDT


Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Posted by: A Puzzled Mind

Posted by: Nameless Oracle

Posted by: privet caboose
Posted by: RKOSNAKE

So, what was so special about 29 Aug 2552? This was the very first time a "smart" AI had "piggy-backed" in the Mjolnir Mk. V powered assault armor during "live-fire" simulated combat conditions.

Taken directly from Bungie and while I do recognize that I'm wrong in the testing thing, this may as well shut the people who complain about Noble Team having MJOLNIR already.


We all know that NOBLE had Mark V before the rest of the Spartan II's(for some godforsaken reason that we'll probably never know.)

Bungie explained this before release. Their excuse was MK V was finished in 2551 on Reach. NOBLE got it first since they were stationed there while the S-II's were too busy hopping across the galaxy to get theirs.


Which is another half-assed explanation considering that the MJOLNIR project was tightly wound into the Spartan II program. The Mark Vs were meant solely for her own Spartans, who were the only ones who could physically wear it. As such Halsey would have known if ONI was stealing her newest and most important armor to give it to another ONI section, which could only be another Spartan group, because who else would wear such armor. Therefore, Halsey must have known about the rival Spartan IIIs and that's something she can easily trace with her superior AIs(I mean, she did do some work ONI's virtual defenses) . That said, you then run into the inconsistency of her not knowing about the S-IIIs.



Private manufacturers exist, yo.


Congratulations, yo, now how and where did they obtain the R&D Mark V armor that was kept lock tight and shut in Halsey's facilities.

Private manufacturers don't have access to that stuff, idiot. Only very specific sections of ONI do, but that's even for peripheries.

The MJOLNIR systems are exclusively Halsey's project. Any armor piece variants made by manufacturers on the Iovian colonies are practically state-owned anyways and they produce only tertiary items. The main armor sytems is still kept secret under Halsey's wing, which other rival ONI groups tried really hard to steal, as Ackerson did.

  • 05.21.2011 4:08 PM PDT

In memory of those fallen in the defense of Earth and her colonies.

March 3, 2553

Halo Reach isn't Halo.

  • 05.21.2011 4:47 PM PDT


Posted by: cameo_cream
Halo Reach isn't Halo.


That's funny, it's set in the same universe as Halo, it involves the war between the UNSC and the Covenant, it has characters from Halo, and it has the Halo title attached to it, but I guess you're right it must not be Halo at all.

/sarcasm

  • 05.21.2011 5:44 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: A Puzzled Mind

Congratulations, yo, now how and where did they obtain the R&D Mark V armor that was kept lock tight and shut in Halsey's facilities.

Private manufacturers don't have access to that stuff, idiot. Only very specific sections of ONI do, but that's even for peripheries.

The MJOLNIR systems are exclusively Halsey's project. Any armor piece variants made by manufacturers on the Iovian colonies are practically state-owned anyways and they produce only tertiary items. The main armor sytems is still kept secret under Halsey's wing, which other rival ONI groups tried really hard to steal, as Ackerson did.


Are you seriously implying ONI couldn't steal Halsey's data on MJOLNIR if they really wanted to? Since her Spartan-II Class-II Program was shut down, I would imagine ONI would have plenty of funds to send out the production of several armor variants to private manufacturers.

Try to deny it if you want, ONI managed to get a hand on her data and made MJOLNIR Mk.V[B] with all of the other variants we all know and (mostly) love.

  • 05.21.2011 5:45 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: cameo_cream
Halo Reach isn't Halo.


That's funny, it's set in the same universe as Halo, it involves the war between the UNSC and the Covenant, it has characters from Halo, and it has the Halo title attached to it, but I guess you're right it must not be Halo at all.

/sarcasm


wasn't really needed seeing how he was talking about the changes and the gameplay.

  • 05.21.2011 6:17 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Are you seriously implying ONI couldn't steal Halsey's data on MJOLNIR if they really wanted to? Since her Spartan-II Class-II Program was shut down, I would imagine ONI would have plenty of funds to send out the production of several armor variants to private manufacturers.

Try to deny it if you want, ONI managed to get a hand on her data and made MJOLNIR Mk.V[B] with all of the other variants we all know and (mostly) love.

Yes, a plethora of variants used on only specific occasions by the Spartan II's on only a few missions in a 6 month time period from plans held closely by Halsey who has an AI who's smarter than every other Smart AI in the UNSC. Makes sense.

  • 05.21.2011 7:25 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: A Puzzled Mind

Congratulations, yo, now how and where did they obtain the R&D Mark V armor that was kept lock tight and shut in Halsey's facilities.

Private manufacturers don't have access to that stuff, idiot. Only very specific sections of ONI do, but that's even for peripheries.

The MJOLNIR systems are exclusively Halsey's project. Any armor piece variants made by manufacturers on the Iovian colonies are practically state-owned anyways and they produce only tertiary items. The main armor sytems is still kept secret under Halsey's wing, which other rival ONI groups tried really hard to steal, as Ackerson did.


Are you seriously implying ONI couldn't steal Halsey's data on MJOLNIR if they really wanted to? Since her Spartan-II Class-II Program was shut down, I would imagine ONI would have plenty of funds to send out the production of several armor variants to private manufacturers.

Try to deny it if you want, ONI managed to get a hand on her data and made MJOLNIR Mk.V[B] with all of the other variants we all know and (mostly) love.


Well, they didn't even need her designs apparently, since RKD was able to do the Hayabusa Powered Assault Armor and release it in 2536 and from the looks of things, that thing had shields.

  • 05.21.2011 7:33 PM PDT


Posted by: UL7IM4 G33K
Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Are you seriously implying ONI couldn't steal Halsey's data on MJOLNIR if they really wanted to? Since her Spartan-II Class-II Program was shut down, I would imagine ONI would have plenty of funds to send out the production of several armor variants to private manufacturers.

Try to deny it if you want, ONI managed to get a hand on her data and made MJOLNIR Mk.V[B] with all of the other variants we all know and (mostly) love.

Yes, a plethora of variants used on only specific occasions by the Spartan II's on only a few missions in a 6 month time period from plans held closely by Halsey who has an AI who's smarter than every other Smart AI in the UNSC. Makes sense.


I never remember reading that the MJOLNIR armor was solely guarded by Halsey... Even then she didn't have Cortana until closer to the battle of Reach.

  • 05.21.2011 8:02 PM PDT

Posted by: anton1792
The manner in which that was done is an example of the Covenant's dogmatic approach to things. Using the same methods that Cortana had used, and the exact same weaknesses that she exploited, they vented the atmosphere of the vessel. The Covenant changed nothing, and it was so easy that by simply plugging in a datapad the ship could be taken. An AI was not needed at this point. The method on which they got aboard the Bloodied Spirit was exactly the same method they used to get on board the Unyielding Heirophant, by stowing away on board a dropship. The UNSC would overhaul all of their security protocols if this happened to them, but the Covenant did not.


Well if they got aboard the Bloodied Spirit in a Covenant dropship then things are a little different than the matter with the Ascendant Justice. And I don't think they ever really knew how the Ascendant Justice was capture did they? I thought they just knew that it had been taken over not how or in what way.

That is only if you want to get any usable information from it. However, just detecting a periodic signal would be a case of listening for a while, filtering out the background noise and then summing up what you are left with. Get 3 separate points of detection and then you can triangulate.

But could they even pick up the transmissions from older human periods? That was really the main point of my response, were they able to detect them at all?

It is, but Regret explicitly stated that the Covenant was not great enough to do the job. By the time Reach fell, the Covenant was giving everything they had. If they were attacked by another race of even nearly equal power then the Covenant would not last, because as Regret said, the Human war would "Leave them defenceless" regardless of whether they could defeat Humanity or not. Given the Covenant's massive advantage over Humanity, there is no reason why this should be the case.

Well Humanity did inflict, and were inflicting, very heavy losses on the Covenant's military might, and they had no idea how many worlds Humanity had that they would have to take and lose ships attacking. Massive advantage or not, if your opponent constantly inflicts heavy losses on your side then you're going to need to find alternative methods to fight them. Whether that be through clever strategies or through new tech pirated from Forerunner caches/artifacts.

Okay perhaps it does not. It more explains why they have not used tactics, but in combination with other things, such as the above, I think it all suggests that they cannot. Some things just do not occur to some people. Combined with their religious dogma that essentially condemns independent thought, it is no surprise.

I suppose so. They certainly do not employ clever tactics often and are very overconfident in their own abilities. I don't it's so much a matter of they cannot find efficient strategies, but more a matter of it doesn't occur to them since they always win nearly every fight they've had against Humanity, hell they've won almost every single fight in general against any foes they've fought.

I'll give you these. Not on the same scale of Reach but okay.

I also thought of one more, the whole deal with the Midnight in the Heart of Midlothian short story, they set up a trap to try and secure human Nav Data.

And I'm not sure if those in Elites in Headhunters could count or not, but it was certainly trap for Jonah and his partner.

Wait. I realise that debating whther the SMAC's can be moved quickly does not really go anywhere useful. Unless the UNSC positioned them all in the one place over Reach then there should not be any issues with the Supercarrier. Were they?

Theoretically, you only need 3 satellites to ensure that all of the planet is covered. We have 20 ODPs. Unless the UNSC was concentrating them all in one area then all of Reach should be covered. The Supercarrier was in low orbit, clearly at a distance less than that of Reach's diameter which means that it will be in range of at least 1 station. And as you know, that round will cross the distance in the blink of an eye.

I just do not understand this part at all really. The explantion may be that they were on the other side of the planet, but why were they there. That defeats the purpose of their existence.


Yeah, debating whether they could move about easily or not is not really getting us anywhere. I think they were positioned right around one area, at least that's what I've always thought, that's certainly how it sounded in the book to me. I'm pretty sure they have ODPs all over, but the SMACs were concentrate in one area in geosynchronous orbit above the area around Castle Base.

  • 05.21.2011 9:16 PM PDT