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Subject: What if, instead of Reach, we had gotten something darker?

(Please keep in mind that I enjoy Reach quite a bit, and while I have some issues with it, this thread isn't meant to bash it.)

(Also, this is in Bungie Universe because it pertains more to plot and the Halo Universe than it does to any particular title.)

Imagine if you will, that instead of playing as a Spartan III, inexplicably moved into the Army and given MKV armor (with utterly un-Spartan-like modifications), you played an ODST.

Your character is not really important. Maybe you played as Buck from ODST, or even a Spartan III (a real one, in SPI). That's not the point. The point is, that what if instead of the weak, "character driven" dialog, we had gotten a sad, hopeless story told from the POV of a mortal soldier.

The story would have revolved around showing the player horrific moments during the fall of Reach. Showing marines get slaughtered as civilian transports go down in flames; civilians getting reduced to ash piles in city centers; actual glassing; Spartans getting killed.

You know the scene in ONI Sword Base where the Field Marshal grabs you and roars in your face? Imagine that, and Schindler's List having a baby, and making it into a ten hour campaign.

More on this later, I'm tired.



  • 05.22.2011 1:35 AM PDT

Agreed.

Seeing Marines going down by Grunts.

Oh wait...

  • 05.22.2011 1:39 AM PDT

I might have liked it more...

  • 05.22.2011 1:47 AM PDT

That would be awesome, so long they kept the spartan multiplayer experience with light colors and feelings.

  • 05.22.2011 2:01 AM PDT

Plus gore! Yay

  • 05.22.2011 2:53 AM PDT


Posted by: talz321
That would be awesome, so long they kept the spartan multiplayer experience with light colors and feelings.
Oh, hell yeah. I would basically want to see an incredibly revamped and feature-rich Halo 3 multiplayer. It would be the next generation of the multiplayer experience laid down by Halo 2 and 3.

  • 05.22.2011 5:13 PM PDT

"Find The Bomb?!
Find The Bomb?!
I'm Looking For The Flag!
What The Heck Is Assualt!?"

Would have made much more sense, the problem with Reach is they tried to create an important plot twist where one didn't exist before, and to do so they ended up breaking canon, and it didn't feel that interesting.

  • 05.22.2011 5:19 PM PDT

always been going on about how Halo should be darker and more adult, since after-all genocide is hardly a pleasant subject!

  • 05.22.2011 5:22 PM PDT

Signatures are for squares.

Red Team's time on Reach was really horrific. The "Invincible" Spartan II's dying everywhere, platoons of marines getting slaughtered by their own CO's, Covenant camps with over 10,000 troops, being resorted to using Hit and Run tactics while the planet is being glassed.

Noble's story was just...blah.

  • 05.22.2011 5:33 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Seeing the corpses of civilians strewn across New Alexandria or groaning in pain, encountering the missing troopers hanging on meathooks, watching buildings crumble, seeing your allies fall one by one.

Yeah, Halo: Reach was all unicorns and rainbows.

  • 05.22.2011 5:36 PM PDT


Posted by: privet caboose
Red Team's time on Reach was really horrific. The "Invincible" Spartan II's dying everywhere, platoons of marines getting slaughtered by their own CO's, Covenant camps with over 10,000 troops, being resorted to using Hit and Run tactics while the planet is being glassed.

Noble's story was just...blah.
Indeed.

I would have loved to sneak around in the midst of the horrors of genocide in SPI armor, getting a front row seat to the story I already knew and loved. Instead, I got "This is plasma damage." said a painful amount of times, a retarded Dr. Halsey, and a bunch of unnecessary tacked-on plot that only served to bloat and weaken the canon.

I love the game besides all this, but I will say, as a fan, that they missed the mark by miles on capturing the battle of Reach.

  • 05.22.2011 5:47 PM PDT
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I wish I could be a Forum Ninja.....

WORLD ENDING! DECEMBER 21, 2012! SUCK IT BTCHES!

  • 05.22.2011 5:51 PM PDT

Pegalesharro Adarsh 9.18.2530 id 397. SIII
V[(0.0)]D
Id...UsEr 397> DeNieD EnTRy
67%warning...,sPace mAy BrEaK
_Th-ey foUnd_
-RuN...-

I don't think most people realize that:
1. Bungie has said it makes sense and people have found that there's only a little bit of things that need retconing.
2. Reach wasn't really a rush job an the audio makes sense overall while the characters actually are deep in a sense.
3. Bungie didn't want a clone of a old book and there would be problems even making it as there's no way Bungie's engine could render the troops and events needed to make it.
4. The books are presented only from one person's (not literally) POV on events and there's no all-knowing character in them. Thus we actually know only a small part of the overall story.
5. TFoR has been getting retconed ever since they started making more books.
6. The spartan issue, like I said before, has been addresses and people beat it like a dead horse, the POA level also has been addressed and it doesn't even take place until after the chief is back aboard and red team dropped.
7. The relay was shut down for around two weeks, knocking out contact for quite sometime. That and due to the fact that it wasn't really apparent that Reach was lost allowed ONI and maybe even the UNSC time to get really for the -blam!- fest called evacuation and if all of the military had known Reach's location was compromised the effect would do more harm then good. Think what happened in Sadie's story but worst...
8. Noble had a pretty big part in the war, maybe not the Hollywood Blockbuster Action Movie we had imagined but still a big part.
9. That while some people have given excellent views and comments on this it can be safe to assume that alot of the people on the Reach breaks canon wagon either didn't really care enough to look up the story(see trolling) or already had problems with the halo story and/or books and games b4 reach.
10. Somehow I jus tknow everyone will ignore this post. lol

Okay I'm done now...

-Oh almost forgot, on topic I like OP's idea but would rather see it as a add-on. Maybe ODST 2 though honestly I'd prefer to have new characters (srry Nate).

[Edited on 05.22.2011 6:07 PM PDT]

  • 05.22.2011 6:02 PM PDT

Bungie is scared to properly realize the scale of the genocide in game...a little too mature perhaps? Heck, imagine if in Reach bungie introduced to all 22 (or whatever) of the S-IIs and made a narrative that led us to beleive all of them were dead (leaving the survivors deaths open ended obviously...).

A much sadder tale. The spartan-IIs have history, noble team pretty much didnt.

THey should've started out before reach and had the climax/end come at reach.


Blah blah coulda shoulda

  • 05.22.2011 6:04 PM PDT

Posted by: L KOLIEAN L
I don't think most people realize that:
1. Bungie has said it makes sense and people have found that there's only a little bit of things that need retconing.
2. Reach wasn't really a rush job an the audio makes sense overall while the characters actually are deep in a sense.
3. Bungie didn't want a clone of a old book and there would be problems even making it as there's no way Bungie's engine could render the troops and events needed to make it.
4. The books are presented only from one person's (not literary) POV on events and there's no all-knowing character in them. Thus we actually know only a small part of the overall story.
5. TFoR has been getting retconed ever since they started making more books.
6. The spartan issue, like I said before, has been addresses and people beat it like a dead horse, the POA level also has been addressed and it doesn't even take place until after the chief is back aboard and red team dropped.
7. The relay was shut down for around two weeks, knocking out contact for quite sometime. That and due to the fact that it wasn't really apparent that Reach was lost allowed ONI and maybe even the UNSC time to get really for the -blam!- fest called evacuation and if all of the military had known Reach's location was compromised the effect would do more harm then good. Think what happened in Sadie's story but worst...
8. Noble had a pretty big part in the war, maybe not the Hollywood Blockbuster Action Movie we had imagined but still a big part.
9. That while some people have given excellent views and comments on this it can be safe to assume that alot of the people on the Reach breaks canon wagon either didn't really care enough to look up the story(see trolling) or already had problems with the halo story and/or books and games b4 reach.
10. Somehow I jus tknow everyone will ignore this post. lol

Okay I'm done now...


it only makes sense in the sense that it fits the timeline. If you actually think about the actions done, it is the stupidest most poorly thrown together slop bungie has graced us with. Just because it makes sense as far as time does not mean it makes sense in terms of using your actual brain to see how stupid it is.

  • 05.22.2011 6:07 PM PDT

Pegalesharro Adarsh 9.18.2530 id 397. SIII
V[(0.0)]D
Id...UsEr 397> DeNieD EnTRy
67%warning...,sPace mAy BrEaK
_Th-ey foUnd_
-RuN...-

No I agree that the decision made were not the best and honestly I feel that Bungie should had a longer campaign, maybe had kept the added characters (Showing Thom's death in a sort of flashback mission or cutscene) and added more in between missions. The problem with Reach I think is Bungie's focus on keeping you with your team, which while nice often rushed good plot choices and elements. Also it seems Bungie has a fear of long cutscenes and so that just made things worst
______________
Hold on I'll draw up a plot for my idea on a better Reach...

Okay here we go...

-Thom (10 - 15 mins)- Like Nob. Act. this will be all cutscene depicting Thom's death in an epic movie-like way, it's would be short but would contain dialogue and could introduce us to the characters. At the end the ship is shown to blow up right as Thom is close to getting out and the scene flashes to white, then as the camera zooms out we get to see the planet before the scene fades to black...

-The FNG- This would introduce us to our character before he heads out to meet Noble, we start off with a black screen before we are treated to a first person view of our character looking down at a tray and his helmet. He hears a voice and turns to meet a screen showing Colonial Holland and the specs on Noble team. He than turns and looks around stretching before we get to take control of him, we than get to do the whole look around do you like these settings bull. From there we are told to grab his helmet and head to a pelican that'll take us to a base nearby where Noble is located. On the way you can here the hushed whispers of the soldiers and the sound of Drill Sergeants. As you hop onto the Pelican it starts to take off and the character closes his eyes and drifts to sleep. The silence is broken after a few seconds by a marine tapping your shoulder. If on Easy (or the first run through)he'll ask your if you want to use the shooting range or just head out already. Once your ready you hop in the hog and you both drive off in first person. The marine gives you a brief account of the recent events on Reach and other small talks b4 noting that you don't talk much and laughing. Your character then tell's the soldier that he needs more shut eye and points his head down, fade to black.

-NA (TBA as This would be abit shorter then the old one (because of the earlier changes)- You hear the soldier saying hey repeatedly before shaking you while driving, he tells you that your close to Nobles location and you place on your helmet for the first time. Cue the Nob. Act. cutscene till you pull up and hop of the hog, giving a hand wave to the driver has he speeds off. The cutscene continues the same but the characters reactions change. When jun sees Six he smirks to himself before shaking his head and pushing bullets into his cartage. Emile eyes six up and down as they look at each other for a quick second (bit of a size up) and Kat breaks the stare with a wave of her arm before pointing to Carter and saying her line. (I was thinking of having the cam be placed right by cart's helmet showing six and kat). Jorge's reaction is the same but with a friendly wave. Emile then says his line and the cutscene continues, As the team moves out Emile looks back and laughs. As cart notes this and then says to six his (your filling a place) line and the scene continues.

-Wint. Con.- Progresses the same but as the cutscene ends and you take control Jun notes that the area looks empty, leading to the it could be the missing troopers line. The rest plays out the same until you stubble upon the troopers, I was thinking of having Carter flinch when he sees this before doing the whole blood bit and moving on. Jorge and Emile have abit of a moment here where Emile questions this as an act of the rebels to which Jorge answers that this seems weird. Kat starts to chime in when footsteps are heard above them. Jun's bit about the thermal is longer as he scans before you enter the building and walk straight into (I was thinking a cloaked elite or two skirmishers fighting over a body) before you both can react Emile or Carter tackles the elite as the other shoots it(if Emile tackles the elite then carter shoots it) here Jorge would say his Aw -blam!- no no no type line and the enemy starts alerting the others. In the distance an elite is running (no doubt calling for back up) and the mission continues. I like how this mission plays out so I want everything to stay except I want the Emile/Jorge Love/Hate thing to be more hostile but caring so I was thinking of (during the opening doors part after you hop back on the falcons) when the banshees start bombing the place having Emile pull Jorge aside as a bomb hits right next to him. This can show that they both at least respect each other as friends but they bicker (I think Jorge thinks of Emile as petty and or childish) The level plays out the same.

-Oni: Sword Base- I like it, MOAR HALSEY THOUGH MOARRR!. I think it would be best to have a crap ton of Troopers with you for the disarm the towers part. I imagine the Target Locater part having a large amount of troops in the area giving you a great use of the locater, then you take the large team (I think their was at least 10 to 16) with you as you take out the tower. More will be dropped off while you take some more (in hogs this time) to the next one. The rest plays the same.

-Nightfall- I think it should be longer and maybe contain a intro cutscene a Jun six moment but yeah, As for the level I want a slow open, you and Jun are dropped off (or little in the original pop out of no where) and make your way across the cliff faces dodging covie patrols till you get near the dark zone. (Along the way Jun talks about the covies and way is this Reach isn't fulling under attack and also questioning command's reason for not alerting the whole planet. As you reach the place where the original starts you do the same as what happens in the original gameplay and this stays till the "rebels" here Jun preaches caution and stays distance creeping around till the end as the soldiers led you a a cart. Here jun starts questioning them as they talk being alot more serious then normal. This ends when the whine of a phantom is heard and the battle continues. At the end if the "rebels" are still alive jun will ask command about them, end level. I want to set Jun up more and let his chatty side show along with setting up some thrilling and quick escapes in the beginning as you try to avoid guards and giving you moments where you lose Jun and have to find your way back.

-Okay taking a break to eat finish later-
________________

Also I have a habit of using "in a sense" when I discuss things others may not argue with

[Edited on 05.22.2011 7:52 PM PDT]

  • 05.22.2011 6:13 PM PDT


Posted by: L KOLIEAN L
I don't think most people realize that:
1. Bungie has said it makes sense and people have found that there's only a little bit of things that need retconing.
2. Reach wasn't really a rush job an the audio makes sense overall while the characters actually are deep in a sense.
3. Bungie didn't want a clone of a old book and there would be problems even making it as there's no way Bungie's engine could render the troops and events needed to make it.
4. The books are presented only from one person's (not literally) POV on events and there's no all-knowing character in them. Thus we actually know only a small part of the overall story.
5. TFoR has been getting retconed ever since they started making more books.
6. The spartan issue, like I said before, has been addresses and people beat it like a dead horse, the POA level also has been addressed and it doesn't even take place until after the chief is back aboard and red team dropped.
7. The relay was shut down for around two weeks, knocking out contact for quite sometime. That and due to the fact that it wasn't really apparent that Reach was lost allowed ONI and maybe even the UNSC time to get really for the -blam!- fest called evacuation and if all of the military had known Reach's location was compromised the effect would do more harm then good. Think what happened in Sadie's story but worst...
8. Noble had a pretty big part in the war, maybe not the Hollywood Blockbuster Action Movie we had imagined but still a big part.
9. That while some people have given excellent views and comments on this it can be safe to assume that alot of the people on the Reach breaks canon wagon either didn't really care enough to look up the story(see trolling) or already had problems with the halo story and/or books and games b4 reach.
10. Somehow I jus tknow everyone will ignore this post. lol

Okay I'm done now...

-Oh almost forgot, on topic I like OP's idea but would rather see it as a add-on. Maybe ODST 2 though honestly I'd prefer to have new characters (srry Nate).
I don't really care if it plugs perfectly into the established plot or not; it's unnecessarily tacked-on, and not even close to what the actual fall of Reach should have been in game form.

I've read "The Fall of Reach", and am currently reading it again. The game was a massive disappointment in relation to it.

Retconing something awesome to make something stupid make sense is, well, stupid.

  • 05.22.2011 6:19 PM PDT
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Agreed. We've never really gotten a look at how bad the war was for the UNSC in the games. We got a brief look here and there in ODST and Reach but never the massive scenes of carnage and destruction that you'd expect from humans desperately trying to fend off genocidal aliens. Seems like Bungie didn't want to take full advantage of that M rating.

  • 05.22.2011 6:46 PM PDT


Posted by: privet caboose
Red Team's time on Reach was really horrific. The "Invincible" Spartan II's dying everywhere, platoons of marines getting slaughtered by their own CO's, Covenant camps with over 10,000 troops, being resorted to using Hit and Run tactics while the planet is being glassed.

Noble's story was just...blah.

Red team had a great storyline but it would be limited if Reach was based on them. They should have used the revived Spartan IIs washouts that were mentioned instead. It would have made more sense and it wouldn't have been contrived like Noble Team

[Edited on 05.23.2011 12:03 AM PDT]

  • 05.23.2011 12:02 AM PDT

A darker story would get me into the story right away, i think they had it right at the start. Creeping about with the motion tracker going nuts. Then finding the troopers. I got into that easily i dident even run ahead first time.

  • 05.23.2011 2:51 AM PDT
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Ad eundum quo nemo ante iit

Posted by: AngrydoG
Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Seeing the corpses of civilians strewn across New Alexandria or groaning in pain, encountering the missing troopers hanging on meathooks, watching buildings crumble, seeing your allies fall one by one.

Yeah, Halo: Reach was all unicorns and rainbows.


Yeah I feel this way too.

The others may feel that it wasn't presented with enough hopelessness.



The only quibble I have with Reach is that it wasn't long enough, I never got to know and care for the characters. Just as I'm warming to them *poof* they're gone.

I thought Reach's "darkness" was spot on.

  • 05.23.2011 12:03 PM PDT

Vengeance only leads to an ongoing cycle of hatred.

Anything, to me, would be better than Reach at this point. Reach was an abomination. A campaign that had no real feel of invasion. No large scale combat, even though Bungie kept boasting about how they can do 40 AI. The story took a squat and crapped all over the canon with terrible characters and had the feeling of some extremely mediocre side-story.

  • 05.23.2011 12:23 PM PDT

Then it would be a more emotional and gripping story, but significantly less-Halo-ey.

  • 05.23.2011 12:47 PM PDT


Posted by: SEAL Sniper 9
Anything, to me, would be better than Reach at this point. Reach was an abomination. A campaign that had no real feel of invasion. No large scale combat, even though Bungie kept boasting about how they can do 40 AI. The story took a squat and crapped all over the canon with terrible characters and had the feeling of some extremely mediocre side-story.


Actually, I'm fairly sure several areas had larger combat then in say halo CE or 3.

However, the area the battle was in was larger, so it didn't seem as big.

Campaign wasn't an abomination to me, certainly felt at times like there was an invasion, or large battle going on.

The Campaign didn't 'crap all over canon' and the characters weren't that terrible. Didn't feel like a side story either to me. Then again, I don't rage over the tiny details.

[Edited on 05.23.2011 12:58 PM PDT]

  • 05.23.2011 12:56 PM PDT

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