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  • Subject: The "Definitive" Fall of Reach Still Conflicts
Subject: The "Definitive" Fall of Reach Still Conflicts
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: wswartzendruber
It seems to me that we're getting some really mixed signals on what's going on here.

Game canon trumps book canon. Some of us really like The Fall of Reach, but fair enough. However, later canon trumps earlier canon. Technically, as this book is a new print for 2011, those parts of the game have been voided. But at the same time, that's just silly as Halo is a game first and a book second, making this release pointless.


you guys were honestly expecting a change?wow.

And that was bungie's canon policy, 343 has yet to say if that will be theirs.

  • 06.30.2011 10:23 AM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: arashikage
So, have anyone got the Mass Market Paperback version released 28/6/11? Any significant changes from the 2010 Paperback version?


None save for a fix for the 2542 typo.

  • 06.30.2011 10:23 AM PDT


Posted by: cameo_cream
Need this be discussed again?

Cole protocol took place within the first years of the war. The FoR happened a few years before the end of the war.

I don't think ONI or the UNSC would be stupid enough not to enact the Cole protocol for such a long time.

Hence Master Chiefs' assault on a orbital dock to secure nav data would be invalid. Hence he goes ground side and dies. Hence, radadadada.

Need more be said?


The Circumference wasn't wiped because it "didn't exist", IE it didn't show up in records of docked ships present, its recorded arrival at Reach was wiped out, pretty much every scrap of information indicating that ship even existed was wiped clean from records. And then it was only discovered when the Fleet of Particular Justice showed up and Doppler was able to uncover it.

And need I mention that both CASTLE and SWORD Bases didn't have their information purged until several hours after the orbital defense were gone and Reach was completely laid bare to the Covenant. And ONI doesn't exactly operate within the law either...a certain Spartan program comes to mind...>_>

  • 06.30.2011 1:06 PM PDT

Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but Doesn't Halsey state something about "the Covenant arrived in FULL FORCE. on the 30th." Aka, implied/pointed at the Covenant being there before?

Edit: Also the waypoint video said the fleet that arrived on the 30th was the LARGEST Covenant fleet ever seen. Thus the surprise is less of "Covenant are here." and more of "HOLY -blam!-, that's a lot of ships..." IMO.

[Edited on 06.30.2011 1:16 PM PDT]

  • 06.30.2011 1:13 PM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but Doesn't Halsey state something about "the Covenant arrived in FULL FORCE. on the 30th." Aka, implied/pointed at the Covenant being there before?

Edit: Also the waypoint video said the fleet that arrived on the 30th was the LARGEST Covenant fleet ever seen. Thus the surprise is less of "Covenant are here." and more of "HOLY -blam!-, that's a lot of ships..." IMO.


At no point in either The Fall of Reach, First Strike, or her journal does she say those words.

The closest she gets to saying those words are in the August 30th entry which says:

Scattered reports of increased [Covenant] activity nearby as well. One can only hope [that both they and Ackerson] will cross paths.

[Next page is checklist, page following that is as follows...]

The Covenant on Reach. NOT a scout party; they are here en masse. I've seen the reports of how 'contained' the situation is - military shorthand for 'it's hit the fan.' We're prepared here in the lab...

--------------------

So there's that. However, one can already see how there's an issue with that entry and how events unfolded in the game. Halsey notes in the entry that there are reports of Covenant nearby, and that they're forming up for a massive offensive as if this is news to her. She takes the time to write up it's not a scout force on the 30th rather than at any point before then but after LNoS (when Sword Base gets wrecked and she gets declared dead). Which seems to imply that Reach was breached by a scout force rather than a fleet of hundreds of warships. Which, for the fortress world of humanity is incredibly sad.

  • 06.30.2011 1:25 PM PDT

Actually I remember somebody here on the universe forums quoting a line. I forget the exact thing but It deals with Halsey telling somebody else about that.

There is still the fact though, In the legendary Commentary Bungie states the book and game fit together, and 343 has released waypoint videos describing BOTH events together. I can link you to it if you wish. It's pretty clear both groups consider them both canon. Different viewpoints give different perspectives of events.

  • 06.30.2011 1:36 PM PDT

- Dragon Ball/Z/GT and it's merchandise are awesome.
- All "abriged" parodies are hilarious.
- Humanity, as a whole, is stupid.
- I have asperger's syndrome
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- Official helper to the Halo: Reach - The Armor You'll Be Wearing This Fall! Thread

Was anything changed?

  • 06.30.2011 2:09 PM PDT

They should elaborate on how exactly they fit together so well.

Would anyone really want a drastically changed version of Fall of Reach anyway? To me, such revisionism would just seem wrong and a bit disrespectful to Nylund. In any case, this thread has only convinced me that I've been correct in not replacing my 2001 copy.

[Edited on 06.30.2011 2:09 PM PDT]

  • 06.30.2011 2:09 PM PDT

"What do you hear?"
"Nothing but the rain."
"Then grab your gun and bring in the cat."
"Boom, boom, boom!"

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Actually I remember somebody here on the universe forums quoting a line. I forget the exact thing but It deals with Halsey telling somebody else about that.


Correct. In-fact, it was OP who caught the change.

Posted by: wswartzendruber
Chapter 13, paragraph 16 of First Strike (2003) has Cathrine Halsey saying:

"I know the Covenant entered the Epsilon Eridani system at approximately oh-five-hundred hours."

This passage takes place on August 30th.


Which was followed by this post...

Posted by: wswartzendruber
Heh! They're slick. Here's what the 2010 edition says:

"With regard to recent events, I likely know far more about this than you do, but let's stick with today. I know that the Covenant arrived in full force at approximately oh-five-hundred hours."

  • 06.30.2011 2:12 PM PDT


Posted by: Oblivion328
They should elaborate on how exactly they fit together so well.

Would anyone really want a drastically changed version of Fall of Reach anyway? To me, such revisionism would just seem wrong and a bit disrespectful to Nylund. In any case, this thread has only convinced me that I've been correct in not replacing my 2001 copy.


Not really disrespecting him, as Nylund wrote Halsey's journal and had part in Reach's story development in that way. I honestly, looking back, think it needed a revision. The ground battle was way pathetic in the book version.

  • 06.30.2011 2:13 PM PDT

- Dragon Ball/Z/GT and it's merchandise are awesome.
- All "abriged" parodies are hilarious.
- Humanity, as a whole, is stupid.
- I have asperger's syndrome
- This is the best used 20 seconds of your life
- Official helper to the Halo: Reach - The Armor You'll Be Wearing This Fall! Thread


Posted by: JABBERWOCK xeno
Was anything changed?


Hello?

Anyways, I wouldn't worry about it.

The only real canon issues reach made were the time it took for reach to fall, where/when the pillar of auttem was.

Both can be explained by the crystal, so don't worry about it.

  • 06.30.2011 3:20 PM PDT


Posted by: kit_103
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Actually I remember somebody here on the universe forums quoting a line. I forget the exact thing but It deals with Halsey telling somebody else about that.


Correct. In-fact, it was OP who caught the change.

Posted by: wswartzendruber
Chapter 13, paragraph 16 of First Strike (2003) has Cathrine Halsey saying:

"I know the Covenant entered the Epsilon Eridani system at approximately oh-five-hundred hours."

This passage takes place on August 30th.


Which was followed by this post...

Posted by: wswartzendruber
Heh! They're slick. Here's what the 2010 edition says:

"With regard to recent events, I likely know far more about this than you do, but let's stick with today. I know that the Covenant arrived in full force at approximately oh-five-hundred hours."


That's the specific line I was talking about, thanks Kit. I personally haven't read the re-releases yet.

  • 06.30.2011 3:23 PM PDT

Xtreme DEAF Gamer

"Somewhere in the heavens... they are waiting"

I think it would just be better for everyone involved if they changed the game to match the book.

  • 06.30.2011 3:39 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: Desolation33
I think it would just be better for everyone involved if they changed the game to match the book.

Pretty boring game then.

  • 06.30.2011 3:42 PM PDT


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: Desolation33
I think it would just be better for everyone involved if they changed the game to match the book.

Pretty boring game then.


And people complain about the game version being tactically stupid? The book version of the ground battle was worse...

  • 06.30.2011 3:47 PM PDT

Brains beats brawn get used to it

Fear the Red Comet

Variety is the spice of life.
Long live games.
Death to all fanboys.


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: kit_103
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Actually I remember somebody here on the universe forums quoting a line. I forget the exact thing but It deals with Halsey telling somebody else about that.


Correct. In-fact, it was OP who caught the change.

Posted by: wswartzendruber
Chapter 13, paragraph 16 of First Strike (2003) has Cathrine Halsey saying:

"I know the Covenant entered the Epsilon Eridani system at approximately oh-five-hundred hours."

This passage takes place on August 30th.


Which was followed by this post...

Posted by: wswartzendruber
Heh! They're slick. Here's what the 2010 edition says:

"With regard to recent events, I likely know far more about this than you do, but let's stick with today. I know that the Covenant arrived in full force at approximately oh-five-hundred hours."


That's the specific line I was talking about, thanks Kit. I personally haven't read the re-releases yet.


Fascinating...So then under the assumption that book and game continue to co-exist it really does seem like Reach was a vulnerable little backwater planet unable to handle a relatively small Covenant fleet until the majority of the UNSC fleet rushed to her aid and formed up on the 30th of August.

  • 06.30.2011 3:49 PM PDT

"What do you hear?"
"Nothing but the rain."
"Then grab your gun and bring in the cat."
"Boom, boom, boom!"

Posted by: JABBERWOCK xeno
where/when the pillar of auttem was.


Covered. The Autumn could physically be in both places. There's enough of a time gap between the space op and the ground op. People seem to forget that the final mission of the game takes place around 1700 hours, well after the space battle. Not only that, but we have no idea when exactly NOBLE and Halsey part ways. Probably shortly after the space battle, given Dot's line about the ship awaiting their arrival.

The only issue raised is the PoA docking at Reach. The whole "not rated for atmosphere" thing.

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
That's the specific line I was talking about, thanks Kit. I personally haven't read the re-releases yet.


No problem. And yeah, neither have I. See no point in buying re-releases if my old versions are in stable condition.

  • 06.30.2011 3:52 PM PDT

Am I supposed to write something funny here?


Posted by: kit_103
The only issue raised is the PoA docking at Reach. The whole "not rated for atmosphere" thing.

While I also think that cruisers are not "rated for atmosphere" (Damn, nearly everybody missed my thread about what that could mean...), has it been said somewhere? Spirit of fire is much bigger than UNSC cruisers, and it's pretty clearly "rated for atmosphere". Also, as I have said before, PoA was pretty intact after it made an emergency landing on 04 and it was damaged while doing it. So I believe that it has "UNSC floating devices" (I don't think they're thrusters, superconductors maybe, but someone said something against it) that allow it to slow it's descent (frigates can hover) and escape atmosphere with help (those thrusters).

  • 07.01.2011 9:33 AM PDT


Posted by: StealthSlasher2

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: kit_103
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Actually I remember somebody here on the universe forums quoting a line. I forget the exact thing but It deals with Halsey telling somebody else about that.


Correct. In-fact, it was OP who caught the change.

Posted by: wswartzendruber
Chapter 13, paragraph 16 of First Strike (2003) has Cathrine Halsey saying:

"I know the Covenant entered the Epsilon Eridani system at approximately oh-five-hundred hours."

This passage takes place on August 30th.


Which was followed by this post...

Posted by: wswartzendruber
Heh! They're slick. Here's what the 2010 edition says:

"With regard to recent events, I likely know far more about this than you do, but let's stick with today. I know that the Covenant arrived in full force at approximately oh-five-hundred hours."


That's the specific line I was talking about, thanks Kit. I personally haven't read the re-releases yet.


Fascinating...So then under the assumption that book and game continue to co-exist it really does seem like Reach was a vulnerable little backwater planet unable to handle a relatively small Covenant fleet until the majority of the UNSC fleet rushed to her aid and formed up on the 30th of August.


Uuuh....

Why would it seem that O_o
I never saw anything in the game indicating or making it seem like Reach was a backwater planet, the very idea just seems absurd...
...A small, random, backwater colony wouldn't have even lasted a week. And it wouldn't have orbital defenses, not like what the game mentions anyway, and there wouldn't be a massive, major city with buildings the same size as Coruscant's.

  • 07.01.2011 10:55 AM PDT

grrr why couldn't bungie just put campaign inline as the book. Then, all these forums how the canon is all wrong wouldn't come into life in the first place.

  • 07.01.2011 11:09 AM PDT

We fight for that which is lost in the hope that what is lost can be found.

Why would you change the books when they worked so well before Reach came out. I still won't accept Halo: Reach's plot. It was the only piece that didn't fit. And they'd have to change Ghosts of Onyx too.

  • 07.01.2011 11:16 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: StealthSlasher2

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: kit_103
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Actually I remember somebody here on the universe forums quoting a line. I forget the exact thing but It deals with Halsey telling somebody else about that.


Correct. In-fact, it was OP who caught the change.

Posted by: wswartzendruber
Chapter 13, paragraph 16 of First Strike (2003) has Cathrine Halsey saying:

"I know the Covenant entered the Epsilon Eridani system at approximately oh-five-hundred hours."

This passage takes place on August 30th.


Which was followed by this post...

Posted by: wswartzendruber
Heh! They're slick. Here's what the 2010 edition says:

"With regard to recent events, I likely know far more about this than you do, but let's stick with today. I know that the Covenant arrived in full force at approximately oh-five-hundred hours."


That's the specific line I was talking about, thanks Kit. I personally haven't read the re-releases yet.


Fascinating...So then under the assumption that book and game continue to co-exist it really does seem like Reach was a vulnerable little backwater planet unable to handle a relatively small Covenant fleet until the majority of the UNSC fleet rushed to her aid and formed up on the 30th of August.


Uuuh....

Why would it seem that O_o
I never saw anything in the game indicating or making it seem like Reach was a backwater planet.


The fact all we saw were farms and small military bases
The fact that a mile long ship was able to get in the system, destroy the fleet and rage hell for a month
The fact the UNSC could barely hold off corvettes
etc

  • 07.01.2011 11:20 AM PDT

Am I supposed to write something funny here?


Posted by: grey101
The fact all we saw were farms and small military bases
We also saw massive city, massive ship breaking area and one of those "small bases" was a launch site for the most advanced human space fighter
The fact that a mile long ship was able to get in the system, destroy the fleet and rage hell for a month
I thought that people said one of the points of 1 day battle was to show the superiority Covenant technology. If 27 km (yes, 27 km long, not 1 mile. CSS-class cruisers are 1,5 km, AC's 5 km) ship owning everything doesn't show it, what does? Also, maybe UNSC fleet hid behind the planet waiting UPPERCUT to be done?
The fact the UNSC could barely hold off corvettes
At SWORD, where they owned it right after it was at safe distance from SWORD, or at Exodus, where one gets nearly owned by a simple SAM battery?
etc

  • 07.01.2011 11:45 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Gamer Whale

Posted by: grey101
The fact all we saw were farms and small military bases
We also saw massive city, massive ship breaking area and one of those "small bases" was a launch site for the most advanced human space fighter
The fact that a mile long ship was able to get in the system, destroy the fleet and rage hell for a month
I thought that people said one of the points of 1 day battle was to show the superiority Covenant technology. If 27 km (yes, 27 km long, not 1 mile. CSS-class cruisers are 1,5 km, AC's 5 km) ship owning everything doesn't show it, what does? Also, maybe UNSC fleet hid behind the planet waiting UPPERCUT to be done?
The fact the UNSC could barely hold off corvettes
At SWORD, where they owned it right after it was at safe distance from SWORD, or at Exodus, where one gets nearly owned by a simple SAM battery?
etc


1. reach is suppose to be a military hub not a place to go to the mall. All the military installations i lived on were far from cities, out in the country, or..military themed.
Ship breaking area was un impressive because we should have seen more locations like that.

2. i hate when people do not properly used the knowledge that was stated in the book then try to make something out of it. the space battle is what was under 2 hours ground engagements lasted roughly two weeks though the game could have stretched that to a month and it would have been fine.

3.The fact the UNSC fleet was suppose to have 150 ships in it yet in reach the fleet got wiped out by 1 ship. I doubt that is the same fleet from the books (i hope not) but reach being the military hub shouldn't have a fleet that can be wiped out by 1 covenant ship.

"hid the fleet waiting for uppercut to be done" most idiotic thing ever, Kat and dot both clearly implied that the fleet was wiped out. and why would the fleet that is suppose to be larger than earth hide for 5 full days?

I can not even understand what you are trying to say in your last sentence.
But The fact the planet is being overrun by shield-less corvettes is just glorious.

  • 07.01.2011 12:03 PM PDT

- Dragon Ball/Z/GT and it's merchandise are awesome.
- All "abriged" parodies are hilarious.
- Humanity, as a whole, is stupid.
- I have asperger's syndrome
- This is the best used 20 seconds of your life
- Official helper to the Halo: Reach - The Armor You'll Be Wearing This Fall! Thread

Again, anything changed in the new release?

  • 07.01.2011 12:10 PM PDT