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Subject: The flaw with a cloaked covenant fleet
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact


Posted by: ROBERTO jh
It isn't impossible to think that the Covenant can mask all of their signatures, both thermal and optical as well you know.


Yup,who knows the supercarrier uses some new kind of Cloak tech,i mean the UNSC forces couldn't even detect that ship during the battle on Viery.

  • 05.28.2011 10:58 AM PDT

I will now address all points.

Burning up in atmosphere - fixed by entering really slowly.
Plasma engines - drift into system, use cold-gas thrusters to manouver into position. Given mass-cancelling technology this isn't too far-fetched.
Heat emmisions - Some supercooled gas blanket, with a heat/radiation absoring "coil" to keep it hidden until such a point where build-up is too great or stealth is no longer required.

  • 05.28.2011 11:01 AM PDT


Posted by: hotshot revan II

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
It isn't impossible to think that the Covenant can mask all of their signatures, both thermal and optical as well you know.


Yup,who knows the supercarrier uses some new kind of Cloak tech,i mean the UNSC forces couldn't even detect that ship during the battle on Viery.



It would be kind of foolish to simply assume the same kind of cloaking technology used on special ops Elites is used for Captiol ships as well; ship cloaks are more advanced for certain.

Still don't quite understand how the Long Night got in-atmosphere with rentry flames though.

And on a completely unrelated note: wooo, Heroic member! :D

  • 05.28.2011 11:01 AM PDT


Posted by: hotshot revan II

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
It isn't impossible to think that the Covenant can mask all of their signatures, both thermal and optical as well you know.


Yup,who knows the supercarrier uses some new kind of Cloak tech,i mean the UNSC forces couldn't even detect that ship during the battle on Viery.



We aren't sure if the ship was even there, and wasn't somehow teleported/did an ultra-precise slipspace jump using the Spires are homing beacons.

  • 05.28.2011 11:03 AM PDT

[Edited on 05.28.2011 10:46 AM PDT][/quote]
Engines produce large amounts of heat and no, light bending and infrared bending aren't exactly the same. Light only covers a small area from the electromagnetic spectrum whilst infra-red covers three times larger. Also, infra-red and light aren't the only radiation emitted by Covenant ships. I believe radiation can be found all over the electromagnetic spectrum, from radio waves to gamma radiation. In order to ship emit zero radiation, it would have to turn off all it's systems.[/quote]

yes engines produce large amounts of heat, when they are turned on, when they aren't turned on they don't...in space you don't need you engines constantly turned on, its like putting a giant billboard saying 'I am here, come and shoot me...'

back to cloaking, how is bending light different from bending infra-red 'light', they are both in essence variations of the same thing, except on has a longer wavelength and lower frequency, but all in all they are one in the same. so surely if you can 'bend' one of them, some of the others should follow the same trend, ultra-violet, infra-red, etc. and types of radiation like gamma radiation require more specialised equipment to detect it. would assume the humans don't use an all in one radiation detector, and even then why point your all in one radiation detector at a 'seemingly' open piece of sky?

also that is assuming that Covenant engines do in-fact produce a lot of heat and that they cannot somehow mask it, both of which are assumptions, same thing goes for gamma, radio, microwave, etc. escaping from the ship, what makes you think it penetrates the hull? guessing the assumption is its being emitted from machinery and such inside?

  • 05.28.2011 11:07 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: PLUT0NIUM 235
firstly, if referring to the Long Night of Solace, then its many kilometres of ship! also friction in the atmosphere is caused by an object travelling at speed through the medium (i.e. air), the shuttle for example has an orbital velocity of around 17,500 miles/hour that is why it looks like a meteor on re-entry. a ship entering an atmosphere at 500 miles/hour would do nothing of the sort, so it all depends on how fast, a 20+ kilometre long carrier entering the atmosphere at 17,500 miles/hour would be retarded, so lets assume it crept into the atmosphere, eliminating the problem of heating through friction.

also another retarded thing regarding 'cloaking', we would assume that the cloak somehow 'bends' light around the occupant right? then how is it visible on thermal, since heat is simply infra-red radiation, similar to light but different wavelength. surely infra-red is equally 'bent' around the user in the same way as visible light? heat being emitted by the user themselves would have to be dealt with if it could be seen through the cloak, or else its a pretty rubbish cloak!

Edit: also ships giving of heat is balls as well, there is no reason that would be true. for example does the space shuttle emit heat when its just 'drifting' along in orbit? don't believe it would appear on thermal imaging to any significant amount, so what brings you to the conclusion that a Covenant ship would be lit up like a Christmas tree on thermal? keeping in mind that the whole argument is based on the ships emitting 'huge amounts' of heat, also plasma engines won't have to be on all the time, there is such a thing as inertia, turn them off and the ship doesn't just stop!

You cannot stop, completely, the transfer of thermal energy from one body to another. Some heat must get from your hot energy reservoir (The inside of the ship) to the "cold" reservoir (The hull). From there there will be thermal emission via infra-red rays.

[Edited on 05.28.2011 11:54 AM PDT]

  • 05.28.2011 11:20 AM PDT

This or maybe they weren't to worried about having clocked ships come in.
Posted by: Snake Archer
But they wouldn't be searching for it. Maybe that's why they didn't find it.


  • 05.28.2011 11:22 AM PDT
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Posted by: grey101
Many people were saying how the covenant ships in reach could have arrived by using a ship wide cloaking system. The issue with this is that the UNSC uses thermal systems to detect invis elites. All Ships can detect thermal temperatures on scanners so with hundreds of ships and stations they would have been able to pick anything up.

The sky is a big place.

Do they even have thermal scanners in place?

  • 05.28.2011 11:24 AM PDT

There's so much to overcome, that it must have been a maneuver that the hierarchs had in the works well before they found Reach.

Just jumping into the system should have set off long range sensors and probes. This was Reach, they should be monitoring all inbound and outbound traffic. There must have been a vangaurd force of spec-ops to take out or confuse any sensors before the carrier ever approached the system.

Once you can't trust your eyes and ears, all bets are off.

  • 05.28.2011 11:32 AM PDT
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Posted by: Methew
Posted by: grey101
Many people were saying how the covenant ships in reach could have arrived by using a ship wide cloaking system. The issue with this is that the UNSC uses thermal systems to detect invis elites. All Ships can detect thermal temperatures on scanners so with hundreds of ships and stations they would have been able to pick anything up.

The sky is a big place.

Do they even have thermal scanners in place?

With all of the orbital defense platforms, stations, and hundred ship fleet around Reach at any given time and also the scanning outposts theres no way anything would have made it in Reachs atmosphere without being detected.

  • 05.28.2011 11:41 AM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."

Wasn't that the reason they took out the Visegard satellite/relay?

  • 05.28.2011 11:49 AM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

All one would have to do is wear some thermal goggles and look up at the sky, this is the main military hub and they didn't even notice?

Camouflage generators produce a lot if heat too, the UNSC could have the weatherman tell everyone there's a concentrated heat spike for seemingly no reason then investigate the anomaly.

  • 05.28.2011 11:50 AM PDT


Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Wasn't that the reason they took out the Visegard satellite/relay?


This was just a planet based comms relay. Not a sensor platform, like all the stations and ships in orbit.

  • 05.28.2011 11:51 AM PDT
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Posted by: Nameless Oracle
With all of the orbital defense platforms, stations, and hundred ship fleet around Reach at any given time and also the scanning outposts theres no way anything would have made it in Reachs atmosphere without being detected.

The possibility is there. Bungie hasn't ruled it out by saying that the Covenant couldn't sneak in undetected.

  • 05.28.2011 11:54 AM PDT
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Posted by: Methew
Posted by: Nameless Oracle
With all of the orbital defense platforms, stations, and hundred ship fleet around Reach at any given time and also the scanning outposts theres no way anything would have made it in Reachs atmosphere without being detected.

The possibility is there. Bungie hasn't ruled it out by saying that the Covenant couldn't sneak in undetected.

Its possible, but only if they had something like a small stealth ship. Theres no way that 15 mile long supercarrier could have snuck in.

  • 05.28.2011 12:10 PM PDT

Posted by:ScubaToaster
Posted by: HipiO7
This man, this man right here put it so eloquently that I actually cancelled my own 2000+ word long post.
/slow clap for respect


:)
The person who said participating is important, not winning, obviously never won anything.

Posted by: william ian
invis elites are different


No they arent.

Camo generators produce a remarkable ammount of heat, there is no way you could hide that, and that goes double for a ship.

Anyways, there really is no way to mask the temperature increase in vessels so big.

  • 05.28.2011 12:18 PM PDT

XxXD3LuuX3 X luuC1d17YXxX

firstly, if referring to the Long Night of Solace, then its many kilometres of ship! also friction in the atmosphere is caused by an object travelling at speed through the medium (i.e. air), the shuttle for example has an orbital velocity of around 17,500 miles/hour that is why it looks like a meteor on re-entry. a ship entering an atmosphere at 500 miles/hour would do nothing of the sort, so it all depends on how fast, a 20+ kilometre long carrier entering the atmosphere at 17,500 miles/hour would be retarded, so lets assume it crept into the atmosphere, eliminating the problem of heating through friction.

also another retarded thing regarding 'cloaking', we would assume that the cloak somehow 'bends' light around the occupant right? then how is it visible on thermal, since heat is simply infra-red radiation, similar to light but different wavelength. surely infra-red is equally 'bent' around the user in the same way as visible light? heat being emitted by the user themselves would have to be dealt with if it could be seen through the cloak, or else its a pretty rubbish cloak!

Edit: also ships giving of heat is balls as well, there is no reason that would be true. for example does the space shuttle emit heat when its just 'drifting' along in orbit? don't believe it would appear on thermal imaging to any significant amount, so what brings you to the conclusion that a Covenant ship would be lit up like a Christmas tree on thermal? keeping in mind that the whole argument is based on the ships emitting 'huge amounts' of heat, also plasma engines won't have to be on all the time, there is such a thing as inertia, turn them off and the ship doesn't just stop!



Okay... so either they cloaked and let inertia carry them into reach and then used their massive heat producing engines to slow down... or they kept their systems off line so that they rocketed through the atmosphere like a giant meteorite...


Both creating huge amounts of heat.

  • 05.28.2011 12:18 PM PDT

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstien

Posted by: Makko Mace
Okay... so either they cloaked and let inertia carry them into reach and then used their massive heat producing engines to slow down... or they kept their systems off line so that they rocketed through the atmosphere like a giant meteorite...


Both creating huge amounts of heat.

I haven't the slightest idea why, but I find this hilarious.

  • 05.28.2011 12:21 PM PDT


Posted by: Makko Mace
Okay... so either they cloaked and let inertia carry them into reach and then used their massive heat producing engines to slow down... or they kept their systems off line so that they rocketed through the atmosphere like a giant meteorite...


Both creating huge amounts of heat.


Read my post above explaining how the LNoS could have gotten in-system if it did at all before making yourself look stupid.

As amusing as it is for me it's also kinda frustrating when people overlook a completely logical and sound explanation.

  • 05.28.2011 12:25 PM PDT
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for example does the space shuttle emit heat when its just 'drifting' along in orbit?

Absolutely. One of the first things it does when it gets to orbit is to open the cargo doors so it can start radiating heat away. Even if the radiators are turned off, the doors closed, and the engines aren't firing, it's still way going to be way hotter than ~2.7 K of space.

  • 05.28.2011 12:49 PM PDT
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Here is a really interesting read I suggest you take a look at, regarding detection in space. It's really much harder to (impossible) to hide your thermal signatures than teh layman would assume. Yes.

  • 05.28.2011 2:55 PM PDT


Posted by: RotaryCookie

Posted by: Makko Mace
Okay... so either they cloaked and let inertia carry them into reach and then used their massive heat producing engines to slow down... or they kept their systems off line so that they rocketed through the atmosphere like a giant meteorite...


Both creating huge amounts of heat.




[quote]
Burning up in atmosphere - fixed by entering really slowly.
Plasma engines - drift into system, use cold-gas thrusters to manouver into position. Given mass-cancelling technology this isn't too far-fetched.
Heat emmisions - Some supercooled gas blanket, with a heat/radiation absoring "coil" to keep it hidden until such a point where build-up is too great or stealth is no longer required.

For which reasons you still would come across as an idiot.

Erm yeah, a 27 km object passing through thick layers of particles(aka atmosphere) will still cause a large amount of friction and heat. And considering its surface area and size, a Supercarrier will create significant heat signatures regardless of how slow the speed it travels, which will still be high because you need to maintain a certain amount of velocity for reentry.

Point2, you're still creating atmospheric distortions. Even with mass displacing tech, you still have significant weight that requires heavy engine use, which of course will be burning brightly on UNSC scanners.
Point3. What part of the fact that its a 27km carrier do you not get. The amount of energy it requires is gargantuan. Even your stupid coil will be releasing too far of heat signature, which makes it even easier to detect as heat release will outline the carrier.


And oh BTW, the UNSC have monitoring stations that constantly watches every inch of Slipspace of the Eridanus system. How in the world that the thousands of probes watching Reach's system totally missed a huge Covenant ship is a testament to how flawed this story was.

[Edited on 05.28.2011 3:30 PM PDT]

  • 05.28.2011 3:21 PM PDT
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Member of Bungie.net for nearly three years, still continuing!

Enjoy what you have and live on.

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Posted by: RotaryCookie
I will now address all points.

Burning up in atmosphere - fixed by entering really slowly.
Plasma engines - drift into system, use cold-gas thrusters to manouver into position. Given mass-cancelling technology this isn't too far-fetched.
Heat emmisions - Some supercooled gas blanket, with a heat/radiation absoring "coil" to keep it hidden until such a point where build-up is too great or stealth is no longer required.


I'd suggest you to take any physics/astrophysics class...

All of your point doesn't still help, although.

You do realize that super-carrier is 27km long, right? It would require massive amounts of energy to propel the gigantic ship to somewhere. Even with cloaking, it still gives off massive heat signatures where UNSC forces would easily detected it and obliterated the ship.

That's one reason of why Reach's campaign is unexplainable, unrepairable canon storyline. >.>

  • 05.28.2011 3:30 PM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
We aren't sure if the ship was even there, and wasn't somehow teleported/did an ultra-precise slipspace jump using the Spires are homing beacons.


Since I seem to have been ignored...

What about this? What if the super-carrier and corvettes arrived by this method? Either a controlled teleport using the spires, or a new method of jumping into the atmosphere using the spires as a homing beacon.

I mean, look at the Spire you visit in Halo Reach, the area it's in is at an impact crater. The pipeline is smashed down, as is the ground it's resting on.

  • 05.28.2011 4:02 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
We aren't sure if the ship was even there, and wasn't somehow teleported/did an ultra-precise slipspace jump using the Spires are homing beacons.

Since I seem to have been ignored...

What about this? What if the super-carrier and corvettes arrived by this method? Either a controlled teleport using the spires, or a new method of jumping into the atmosphere using the spires as a homing beacon.

I mean, look at the Spire you visit in Halo Reach, the area it's in is at an impact crater. The pipeline is smashed down, as is the ground it's resting on.

The Covenant cannot perform in-atmosphere slipspace operations. "Intense" gravity caused complications.

I also don't think the Covenant had the capability or understanding to produce tech as advanced and intricate as translocation. They have a poorer understanding of physics than the UNSC.

  • 05.28.2011 4:58 PM PDT

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