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Subject: The flaw with a cloaked covenant fleet
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Posted by: RKOSNAKE
Problem is, Elites are living beings with body temperature, ships aren't.

Engines.

  • 05.29.2011 4:56 PM PDT


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Hm, how do we know the corvettes aren't built for stealth in the first place? They don't appear to have much, if any shielding...


Because of how they are deployed and act.

They are nothing more than dropships for spreading troops, the stealth one was no more than a covenant prowler that didn't fight.


UNSC prowlers are sometimes used as insertion/extraction ships.

  • 05.29.2011 5:05 PM PDT

"Where ere thou hast been, here or in yon world manifest? Canst thou tell what is, or what was, or what is to come? No thing shall last. Yet there are some things that will never change. History is written in blood, yet are battles really lost on the battlefield? Canst thou tell me where thou comest, and where thou goest, and what is, or what was, or what will be? For everything remains, AS IT NEVER WAS."

Posted by: anton1792
Perhaps, but there is no evidence for it. In addition, it goes against common sense a bit. Why would the Covenant not bother installing such a drive on the rest of their ships? Such a massive tactical advantage it would be, why limit themselves?


Size could be a great factor. You've seen how large the Long Night of Solace was in comparison to other Covenant ships, it is entirely possible that with their attempts on smaller ships, they ended up destroying the crafts.

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
The impact thing. If you look at the spire you visit, the ground is depressed like the spire had landed, hard. You can see bits of the pipeline there crushed into the ground as well.


Yes, I realize this, my question is how? Was the Long Night of Solace floating around in space in plain sight of the sensor array? I find this to be more unlikely.

Posted by: grey101
It doesn't fit because the covenant didn't realize that after 4,000 years of space faring they had the tech to do this AFTER cortana did it on threshold.


As I stated above, I find no reason that the technique was manageable on larger ships, though destroying smaller craft. I also am extremely loathe to limit the Universe to single lines written 10 years ago before the Halo Universe expanded as it did.

Posted by: grey101
This idea would still fail because the station above reach would detect the slipspace signature, which is how they knew reach was being invaded to begin with.


Would Reach's magnetic field not possibly interfere with such monitoring? Isn't it also possible that there were no monitoring systems in the desert - hence the secluded selection for an LZ - and that the sensory array in Space wasn't monitoring the planet's surface?

Posted by: grey101
They [Corvettes] are nothing more than dropships for spreading troops,


Incorrect. Corvettes are classified as Light Warships, and we blatantly see them bombarding Sword Base, as well as engaging the Savannah in combat.

  • 05.29.2011 5:09 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: grey101

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Hm, how do we know the corvettes aren't built for stealth in the first place? They don't appear to have much, if any shielding...


Because of how they are deployed and act.

They are nothing more than dropships for spreading troops, the stealth one was no more than a covenant prowler that didn't fight.


UNSC prowlers are sometimes used as insertion/extraction ships.


we only have 3 accounts of that and all include spartans.

They weren't used for troop transport like the covenant is using this class of corvette for.

  • 05.29.2011 5:09 PM PDT

JackofHearts, my theory went to say the Spires were launched from a distance toward Reach. It is possible they were disguised(to sensors, or literally had some sort of shield/camo system which made them appear as meteors.) before the launch.

Edit: To Grey, Honestly I'd use the Corvettes the same way, regardless if they were stealth craft, bombardment craft, or ramming suicide ships. The LNOS couldn't get in too close without being in danger (before and after Tip of the Spear, cause it quickly went into a safe spot in orbit). Using the Corvettes to take troops in quickly, as well as deploy forces in multiple places at once makes sense.

[Edited on 05.29.2011 5:13 PM PDT]

  • 05.29.2011 5:11 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: jack0fhearts
.

Posted by: grey101
This idea would still fail because the station above reach would detect the slipspace signature, which is how they knew reach was being invaded to begin with.


Would Reach's magnetic field not possibly interfere with such monitoring? Isn't it also possible that there were no monitoring systems in the desert - hence the secluded selection for an LZ - and that the sensory array in Space wasn't monitoring the planet's surface?

Posted by: grey101
They [Corvettes] are nothing more than dropships for spreading troops,


Incorrect. Corvettes are classified as Light Warships, and we blatantly see them bombarding Sword Base, as well as engaging the Savannah in combat.


1, All the monitoring stations are in high orbit anything trying to get in the system would be detected, period. It doesn't matter if it is in atmosphere or not, they would still see a ship in slipspace on the screen.

2. I am correct first off. The super carrier was using the corvettes to transport troops across reach because it couldn't do that "without being noticed".

  • 05.29.2011 5:14 PM PDT

"Where ere thou hast been, here or in yon world manifest? Canst thou tell what is, or what was, or what is to come? No thing shall last. Yet there are some things that will never change. History is written in blood, yet are battles really lost on the battlefield? Canst thou tell me where thou comest, and where thou goest, and what is, or what was, or what will be? For everything remains, AS IT NEVER WAS."

DaeFaron, I get what you're saying I just don't see how it would have succeeded. The Solace would have had to been in a steady orbit above the desert, fired the Spires accurately, and then they would have had to have survived the impact. All of this would have had to be done without being detected by the orbital sensory array.

  • 05.29.2011 5:19 PM PDT

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Corvettes seem to act as support ships both deploying and then supporting the forces it ferries from the Super Carrier. The Corvette being deployed from the Super Carrier itself rather than traveling to systems on its own seems far more likely. It's extremely doubtful it's a standalone warship given its relatively short operation time. Given its need to refuel during a planetary battle, and the slots built into the Super Carrier to take in Corvettes and resupply them I'd say they're stuck in that support role.

  • 05.29.2011 5:25 PM PDT

"Where ere thou hast been, here or in yon world manifest? Canst thou tell what is, or what was, or what is to come? No thing shall last. Yet there are some things that will never change. History is written in blood, yet are battles really lost on the battlefield? Canst thou tell me where thou comest, and where thou goest, and what is, or what was, or what will be? For everything remains, AS IT NEVER WAS."

Posted by: grey101
All the monitoring stations are in high orbit anything trying to get in the system would be detected, period. It doesn't matter if it is in atmosphere or not, they would still see a ship in slipspace on the screen.

Unless the Solace had enough cloaking to avoid even that detection, perhaps a type of jamming system.

Posted by: grey101
I am correct first off. The super carrier was using the corvettes to transport troops across reach because it couldn't do that "without being noticed".

You said that they were "nothing more" than transports. This is incorrect. The Corvettes were used to transport small forces to locations on Reach, yes, but so were the Covenant Supercarriers and CCS Battlecruisers. The Phantoms and Spirits are troop transports, while the Corvettes are used as bombardment and orbital support, as well as being more than capable of engaging ships in space.

  • 05.29.2011 5:28 PM PDT

[url*=http://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=167323][i mg*]http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp351/Vrai_2/toxicpurp leuserbar.png[/img*][/url*]

the ships might just divert the excess heat within the ship


an elite cant say, oh lets just incinerate my intestines

  • 05.29.2011 5:32 PM PDT


Posted by: jack0fhearts
DaeFaron, I get what you're saying I just don't see how it would have succeeded. The Solace would have had to been in a steady orbit above the desert, fired the Spires accurately, and then they would have had to have survived the impact. All of this would have had to be done without being detected by the orbital sensory array.


Heh, what I mean is that the spires were actually launched farther out then simply in orbit. For all we know, it had it's own engine to slow down descent.

  • 05.29.2011 5:53 PM PDT

"Where ere thou hast been, here or in yon world manifest? Canst thou tell what is, or what was, or what is to come? No thing shall last. Yet there are some things that will never change. History is written in blood, yet are battles really lost on the battlefield? Canst thou tell me where thou comest, and where thou goest, and what is, or what was, or what will be? For everything remains, AS IT NEVER WAS."

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Heh, what I mean is that the spires were actually launched farther out then simply in orbit. For all we know, it had it's own engine to slow down descent.


Wouldn't the Spires then be detected?

It is also possible that a Stealth Corvette could have carried in the necessary supplies for the Spires to be built, and then the Long Night of Solace arrived once the cloak field was up.

  • 05.29.2011 5:58 PM PDT


Posted by: jack0fhearts
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Heh, what I mean is that the spires were actually launched farther out then simply in orbit. For all we know, it had it's own engine to slow down descent.


Wouldn't the Spires then be detected?

It is also possible that a Stealth Corvette could have carried in the necessary supplies for the Spires to be built, and then the Long Night of Solace arrived once the cloak field was up.


I said it could be possible for them to have some sort of sensor masking equipped.

  • 05.29.2011 6:20 PM PDT

"Where ere thou hast been, here or in yon world manifest? Canst thou tell what is, or what was, or what is to come? No thing shall last. Yet there are some things that will never change. History is written in blood, yet are battles really lost on the battlefield? Canst thou tell me where thou comest, and where thou goest, and what is, or what was, or what will be? For everything remains, AS IT NEVER WAS."

I find it more likely that the Long Night of Solace had more advanced cloaking than a simple Spire platform.

  • 05.29.2011 6:26 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: jack0fhearts
Posted by: anton1792
Perhaps, but there is no evidence for it. In addition, it goes against common sense a bit. Why would the Covenant not bother installing such a drive on the rest of their ships? Such a massive tactical advantage it would be, why limit themselves?

Size could be a great factor. You've seen how large the Long Night of Solace was in comparison to other Covenant ships, it is entirely possible that with their attempts on smaller ships, they ended up destroying the crafts.

Then there is no reason why the UNSC would not be able to do it when their slipspace understanding is more sophisticated than that of the Covenant's. The UNSC cannot do it.

Again it has nothing to do with the actual drives, it is the mathematical software which runs it.

Posted by: jack0fhearts
Posted by: grey101
It doesn't fit because the covenant didn't realize that after 4,000 years of space faring they had the tech to do this AFTER cortana did it on threshold.

As I stated above, I find no reason that the technique was manageable on larger ships, though destroying smaller craft. I also am extremely loathe to limit the Universe to single lines written 10 years ago before the Halo Universe expanded as it did.

We are rather loathe to discard the lines upon which the core premises of the franchise are essentially built upon. This is not just one line either, it is tied into an entire theme as well.

  • 05.29.2011 7:02 PM PDT

"Where ere thou hast been, here or in yon world manifest? Canst thou tell what is, or what was, or what is to come? No thing shall last. Yet there are some things that will never change. History is written in blood, yet are battles really lost on the battlefield? Canst thou tell me where thou comest, and where thou goest, and what is, or what was, or what will be? For everything remains, AS IT NEVER WAS."

Posted by: anton1792
Then there is no reason why the UNSC would not be able to do it when their slipspace understanding is more sophisticated than that of the Covenant's. The UNSC cannot do it.

How did we reach this conclusion, again? When it's shown that the Covenant have always been more accurate with their slipspace jumps? It's mentioned various times that the Covenant are able to do pin-point jumps, and even after Cortana figured out how to jump in-atmosphere, the UNSC still failed to replicate the technique. Why is that?

Posted by: anton1792
Again it has nothing to do with the actual drives, it is the mathematical software which runs it.

I'm not talking about drivers, I'm more talking about ship size, and materials used.

Posted by: anton1792
We are rather loathe to discard the lines upon which the core premises of the franchise are essentially built upon. This is not just one line either, it is tied into an entire theme as well.


When it comes down to single lines (as it often does,) I find it makes everything better when you take that line into peripheral consideration. I doubt the development team's thoughts were "Hey, what about this cool idea?" "Oh, no... The ships can't do that because it says so here in a book written before Halo 2."

  • 05.29.2011 8:09 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: jack0fhearts
Posted by: anton1792
Then there is no reason why the UNSC would not be able to do it when their slipspace understanding is more sophisticated than that of the Covenant's. The UNSC cannot do it.

How did we reach this conclusion, again? When it's shown that the Covenant have always been more accurate with their slipspace jumps? It's mentioned various times that the Covenant are able to do pin-point jumps, and even after Cortana figured out how to jump in-atmosphere, the UNSC still failed to replicate the technique. Why is that?

Pin-point slipspace jumps and in-atmosphere slipspace jumps are different applications.

The Covenants pin-point jumps are simply a result of their sensors having a finer resolution that UNSC ones. They can detect perforations in space-time and open them up, whilst the UNSC simply bursts its way into slipspace.

Gravity (Which comes hand-in-hand with atmospheres) [So really the correct terminology isn't even in-atmosphere, as it actually has nothing to do with it, but rather the extreme gravity well holding it] contorts and messes up both the UNSC's and the Covenant's slipspace vectors. Their sensors cannot resolve them.

Where was it stated that the UNSC could not utilise Cortana's findings?

Posted by: jack0fhearts
Posted by: anton1792
Again it has nothing to do with the actual drives, it is the mathematical software which runs it.

I'm not talking about drivers, I'm more talking about ship size, and materials used.

It does not matter. The slipspace portals cannot be opened in the first place in the presence of a gravity well.

Posted by: jack0fhearts
Posted by: anton1792
We are rather loathe to discard the lines upon which the core premises of the franchise are essentially built upon. This is not just one line either, it is tied into an entire theme as well.

When it comes down to single lines (as it often does,) I find it makes everything better when you take that line into peripheral consideration. I doubt the development team's thoughts were "Hey, what about this cool idea?" "Oh, no... The ships can't do that because it says so here in a book written before Halo 2."

"This is not just one line either, it is tied into an entire theme as well."

The theme of an imitative Covenant.

When you start contradicting the story's themes then you've got a problem. Reach is not being contested on grounds of facts and one-liners, but what impact it has on the overall story.

  • 05.29.2011 8:34 PM PDT

XxXD3LuuX3 X luuC1d17YXxX

I just don't understand why all of this was necisary...

  • 05.29.2011 8:52 PM PDT

"Where ere thou hast been, here or in yon world manifest? Canst thou tell what is, or what was, or what is to come? No thing shall last. Yet there are some things that will never change. History is written in blood, yet are battles really lost on the battlefield? Canst thou tell me where thou comest, and where thou goest, and what is, or what was, or what will be? For everything remains, AS IT NEVER WAS."

Posted by: anton1792
Where was it stated that the UNSC could not utilise Cortana's findings?

Technically? Nowhere. However did we ever see or read of a UNSC ship slip-space jumping in-atmosphere? Nope.

Also we're forgetting one big thing; Cortana had a wealth of Forerunner information prior to making those corrections. The question now raises; who really figured out how to jump in-atmosphere? The UNSC or Forerunners?

Posted by: anton1792
It does not matter. The slipspace portals cannot be opened in the first place in the presence of a gravity well.

Why would you say that, when we've seen it happen five times? Once in Halo 2, twice (technically one was the same jump) in ODST and twice in Halo 3. It is quite obvious that slipspace portals can and have been opened in the presence of a gravity well.

Posted by: anton1792
"This is not just one line either, it is tied into an entire theme as well."

The theme of an imitative Covenant.

When you start contradicting the story's themes then you've got a problem. Reach is not being contested on grounds of facts and one-liners, but what impact it has on the overall story.

And what are the Covenant imitating? The Forerunners. Is it not entirely possible that the Covenant were able to mimic in-atmosphere jumps on larger craft, but hadn't learned to do so with smaller, assumedly more frail craft?

It is entirely possible.

  • 05.29.2011 9:23 PM PDT
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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Um, just a question, didn't the spires act as a teleporter for the super-carrier?

Based on the area Spire 1 was located, it appeared that the Spires were launched from a distance, and impacted the planet as a meteorite would.

Course, it wasn't truly a fleet. A super-carrier with... 2-4 corvettes.


Just a point:

The gravity displacement created by a Covenant Super-Carrier, let alone a fleet, would be immediately detectable.

Cloaking or not, the ship would indeed register a thermal signal, even if only in the form of reflective heat[an anomaly of that size would not be within acceptable parameters] not to mention an object that large would have been detected the moment it entered the system.

Even current technology is capable of picking up small/large objects that enter the solar system. It'd be a safe bet that 552 years in the future, we would be able to detect an object 27km in length if it entered any part of human occupied space.

In case this was already covered, I apologise, but I skipped over a lot of stuff.

[Edited on 05.29.2011 9:51 PM PDT]

  • 05.29.2011 9:50 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: jack0fhearts
Posted by: anton1792
Where was it stated that the UNSC could not utilise Cortana's findings?

Technically? Nowhere. However did we ever see or read of a UNSC ship slip-space jumping in-atmosphere? Nope.

Well this was after First Strike when this supposedly became possible. Also, just because we don't read anything about it does not mean it cannot be happening. In this instance though, there is really nothing to suggest that the UNSC can or cannot. However seeing as Cortana knows how, and gave all that information to the UNSC after getting back to Earth, it is a fair bet. Therefore, after First Strike, it is probable that the UNSC can.

The difference with the Covenant (Before First Strike) is that there was nothing to suggest it was possible and Cortana said that they did not have the capability. (From analysing their equations) Therefore it is improbable that they could do this before First Strike.

Posted by: jack0fhearts
Also we're forgetting one big thing; Cortana had a wealth of Forerunner information prior to making those corrections. The question now raises; who really figured out how to jump in-atmosphere? The UNSC or Forerunners?

Cortana makes no reference to utilising Forerunner data though, only her own capabilities. The vibe and theme in First Strike is really quite clear about this as well, I think: That Humanity's ingenuity is pretty much the only thing that the UNSC has left at this point, and in this instance it prevailed.

Posted by: jack0fhearts
Posted by: anton1792
It does not matter. The slipspace portals cannot be opened in the first place in the presence of a gravity well.

Why would you say that, when we've seen it happen five times? Once in Halo 2, twice (technically one was the same jump) in ODST and twice in Halo 3. It is quite obvious that slipspace portals can and have been opened in the presence of a gravity well.

Before First Strike is what I meant sorry. All the events you have outlined are afterwards.

Posted by: jack0fhearts
Posted by: anton1792
"This is not just one line either, it is tied into an entire theme as well."

The theme of an imitative Covenant.

When you start contradicting the story's themes then you've got a problem. Reach is not being contested on grounds of facts and one-liners, but what impact it has on the overall story.

And what are the Covenant imitating? The Forerunners. Is it not entirely possible that the Covenant were able to mimic in-atmosphere jumps on larger craft, but hadn't learned to do so with smaller, assumedly more frail craft?

It is entirely possible.

It is, yes.

Though it is always said that their technology is a poorer replica than Forerunner technology. The Prophets in charge of studying this stuff even admit to that.

The Covenant were not able to replicate the Forerunners light based technology and weaponry, so ended up with plasma. They could not understand how to replicate the Forerunners materials, so ended up with that purple alloy. (Which unlike Forerunner material is much, much, much more fragile) And then their slipspace drives: Fast, accurate, but unlike the Forerunners incapable of traversing gravity wells. (Until First Strike...)

[Edited on 05.30.2011 7:42 AM PDT]

  • 05.30.2011 7:41 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: jack0fhearts
Posted by: grey101
All the monitoring stations are in high orbit anything trying to get in the system would be detected, period. It doesn't matter if it is in atmosphere or not, they would still see a ship in slipspace on the screen.

Unless the Solace had enough cloaking to avoid even that detection, perhaps a type of jamming system.

Posted by: grey101
I am correct first off. The super carrier was using the corvettes to transport troops across reach because it couldn't do that "without being noticed".

You said that they were "nothing more" than transports. This is incorrect. The Corvettes were used to transport small forces to locations on Reach, yes, but so were the Covenant Supercarriers and CCS Battlecruisers. The Phantoms and Spirits are troop transports, while the Corvettes are used as bombardment and orbital support, as well as being more than capable of engaging ships in space.


The corvette is a dropship for other large craft becuase they are larger and thus it is harder for them to efficiently deploy troops, hence the corvettes.

"more than capable of engaging ship", are you trying to make me laugh? everybody knows the only reason the Savannah "lost" to the corvette was for dramatic effect. archer missiles let alone a single mac round would have destroyed the ship.

If all the covenant ships were shield-less like that the UNSC would have won the war.

  • 05.30.2011 1:30 PM PDT

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