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This topic has moved here: Subject: Do You Accept Cryptum as Canon?
  • Subject: Do You Accept Cryptum as Canon?
Subject: Do You Accept Cryptum as Canon?
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It's more canon than Halo Reach could ever be. And I really don't like that game canon > book canon stuff. If there was a game where everyone rode with unicorns that shoot laser beams out of their eyes and where Halo rings are suddenly giant bunnies, would that be canon then. That principle just doesn't work if we want to have canon where everything makes sense. "Good" canon should override "bad" canon.

  • 05.29.2011 9:11 PM PDT
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Posted by: DonVinzone1

Posted by: grey101
I am seriously about to enter rage mode.


cryptum is probably the best source of canon to date with no flaws whatsoever.


relax

breathe

ok, that hasn't helped for me too. Retards on these Forums with their selective canon...
Don't be that guy. Most people understand that technically canon is what ever Bungie and 343 say is canon. As the consumers we can choose what we like and don't like, and yes, even choose what to accept.

Reach is technically 1st line canon. That being said it was junk. For what ever reason Bungie threw canon out the window with Reach. It's not even close. Close minded worshipers can argue it all they want but anyone who is objective knows it's true. Bungie lost a ton of creditability with a lot of hard core fans with Reach. Bungie probably doesn't care because the 98% of people they make money off of wouldn't know canon from comics.

Cryptum was phenomenal.

  • 06.01.2011 9:38 AM PDT
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SC = Supreme Commander/Supreme Canadian.

De Facto leader of the military of the APE (Allied Planets Empire).

Coup = Admiral Asskicker, ZPM hive ship

Part of me wants to not declare it canon, due to the fact that Forerunners are now more xenophobic then the Imperium.

Another part of me wants to make it absolute canon, due to the fact that Forerunner infantry weapons slag continents and the Forerunner civilization rivals the Culture.

I'm torn.

  • 06.01.2011 9:41 AM PDT

I will never accept Cryptum as canon. I have been following the canon of halo since combat evolved and this just feels insulting. The canon of halo stems from the games. With this parts of the game have suddenly become non-canon. Like in Halo 3 when the gravemind says to the master chief. "Child of my enemy why have you come? I offer no forgiveness, a fathers sins pass to his son." or when the Prophet of truth says "I know now why they left you behind, you were weak and gods must be strong." Humanity is the creation of the Forerunner, there last greatest creation intended to carry on the Mantel which was passed to them by the Precursors. In one of the computer logs on the ark between the two Forerunner, one of them seems to be describing earth and humanity, referring to us as "them." Also what happened to these supposed human subspecies that were created by the Forerunner when the devolved us, a term I detest using. Why did the Elites forget our alliance and turn on us and worship the Forerunner? Just to many inconsistencies for me to stomach.

  • 06.01.2011 10:31 AM PDT
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Talk to the Soul | ~B.B. | Know Your Duardo |  | Hero | ISFJ | 77135 | 94371

"It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me."

I find it funny that people will accept certain things from 343i as canon because they like it, and will deny other things are canon just because they don't like it.

Cryptum is a great book and very informative.

  • 06.01.2011 10:45 AM PDT
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Thanks for Team Snipers Bungie.
Mythic Member, Legendary Member and back and forth. i just can't make up my mind!
Campaign - Halo C.E.>Halo 2>Halo 3
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Just about every thing I post is my opinion and nothing more. Be subjective. Respect other's opinions. Try to understand other's point of view.

I do understand what's canon but if it's junk it's junk no matter who the source is or who says it's good. Some of that is opinion. It can be very subjective. Some of it is not. Reach basically rewrote Fall of Reach which was a very good book. The backlash was inevitable.

  • 06.01.2011 10:50 AM PDT


Posted by: Duardo
I find it funny that people will accept certain things from 343i as canon because they like it, and will deny other things are canon just because they don't like it.

Cryptum is a great book and very informative.


You accurately summed up my thoughts Duardo. It's actually very depressing the way a lot of this forum acts, and the lengths they'll go to and things they'll come up with to justify claiming something shouldn't be canon just because they don't like it :/

  • 06.01.2011 10:50 AM PDT
  • gamertag: sum0ne
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Thanks for Team Snipers Bungie.
Mythic Member, Legendary Member and back and forth. i just can't make up my mind!
Campaign - Halo C.E.>Halo 2>Halo 3
Multiplayer - Halo 2>Halo 3>Halo C.E.
Just about every thing I post is my opinion and nothing more. Be subjective. Respect other's opinions. Try to understand other's point of view.

But you have to ask yourself as an author/artist "Why don't they like it?" Is it because they didn't like the style? They didn't like the story? The ending? In the case of Reach i don't believe it's any of those things. It's because of time lines and other very important facts about the Halo Universe were completely ignored or rewritten. There should be accountability for that.

Getting back on topic I didn't see many things in Cryptum that didn't follow previous canon.

[Edited on 06.01.2011 11:02 AM PDT]

  • 06.01.2011 11:01 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Killer Crunch
With this parts of the game have suddenly become non-canon. Like in Halo 3 when the gravemind says to the master chief. "Child of my enemy why have you come? I offer no forgiveness, a fathers sins pass to his son."

This does not rule out the concept of adoption. The Forerunner adopted Humanity to be their heirs after an unknown amount of time and/or an unknown event. We will most likely find out in the next novels. This does not definitely mean that Humanity are the physical descendants or creation of the Forerunner, there is room for interpretation.

Posted by: Killer Crunch
or when the Prophet of truth says "I know now why they left you behind, you were weak and gods must be strong."

The Prophet of Truth is not entirely trustworthy, and whatever characters themselves think can sometimes be incorrect. It would be very boring if every character was omniscient and honest all the time.

From his viewpoint he thought that Humanity was the descendants because he was very ignorant of the truth, and from what he learned from Mendicant Bias. As for why Mendicant called Humanity his "makers and Masters" ... Well, Humanity had inherited all the Forerunners technology. That would include MB, therefore Humanity were his new masters.

Posted by: Killer Crunch
Humanity is the creation of the Forerunner, there last greatest creation intended to carry on the Mantel which was passed to them by the Precursors. In one of the computer logs on the ark between the two Forerunner, one of them seems to be describing earth and humanity, referring to us as "them."

No. It was explicitly stated that they stumbled upon Humanity in the terminals. At that time, almost everybody interpreted that to mean that the Forerunner found Humanity late into the war with the Flood. They could not have created Humanity.

Now however, they knew about Humanity for a while. However I think that the Librarian may not have been speaking about Humanity itself but rather something she discovered about Humanity; a discovery that was made late into the war. Somebody had definitely tampered with Earth and Humanity before the Forerunners got to them.

Posted by: Killer Crunch
Also what happened to these supposed human subspecies that were created by the Forerunner when the devolved us, a term I detest using.

They obviously died out, like many of Humanity's ancient cousins have. Neanderthals as an example.

Posted by: Killer Crunch
Why did the Elites forget our alliance and turn on us and worship the Forerunner?

Elites? Well that would be nice except that it was the Prophets. And they forgot about the alliance because they were likewise "de-evolved" after the Forerunner obliterated what was left of their race and civilisation. The Librarian only managed to save a few.

  • 06.01.2011 11:09 AM PDT

Posted by: Lord Slade
Yes. Cryptum is more worthy of being canon than Halo: Reach or Halo Legends by far. It's easily the best Halo novel written to date.
I disagree (but not about Halo Legends, that sucked hardcore, and Reach's story leaves much to be desired).

I think that Greg Bear is a pretentious prick. I can't stand his descriptive style, narration, or what he chose to do with the story of the Forerunners. Before he came along, the story was simple, clear, and yet shrouded in mystery. No novel ever should have been written directly about a Forerunner, or from the point of view of a Forerunner. That kind of kills every cool thing about them.

The story without Cryptum goes that the Forerunners encountered the Flood (read: encountered. Not engineered), an unknown horror, presumably come from beyond the Galaxy. This is one of the things that make the Flood terrifying: We don't know exactly where they came from. Are they remnants, defeated somewhere else in the 'verse? Or did they leave a Galaxy(s) full of Flood behind them, in which they've possibly run out of things to assimilate?

Either way, we know that that they were a horrific and cunning enemy, who managed to beat back the hyper-advanced Forerunners across thousands of worlds, both natural and artificial, until they were forced to build, and finally activate the Halo array, the seven ringworlds with a combined range to kill everything larger than a housecat across the entire galaxy, after indexing every bit of information about them and allowing the automated systems to replace everything that was killed (presumably with some incredible bio-tech, if their AIs, ringworlds, giant portals, and other derelict gadgetry have anything to say about whether they're capable or not).

Now, from what I picked up as implied in the games, humanity were the goddammed Forerunners (the gate to the Ark being on our planet and all), meant to pick up where we left off when we were ready. But, before we could even come close, the Prophets ran into some Forerunner tech while at war with the Elites, and used their discovery (with a few giant, blatant lies) to forge the beginnings of the Covenant. You know the rest; the Covies roamed the Galaxy like hegemonic snowball, acquiring species and worlds to use on their insane Jihad to suicide, with the Prophets kind of making it up as they went along.

Then came first contact. The Prophets flipped out when they found humanity (recognizing them for what they were), and attempted to annihilate us colony by colony, find a suspicious amount of Forerunner tech as they moved closer to Earth (and no-one but the "Heretics" putting two and two together, with the help of the monitor).

Anyways, to recap, there's no good reason for Bear to do what he did to the backstory. It was epic and reasonably mysterious as it was, even when explained. Extended universe that takes place before the main events of the games or initial novels should be ambiguous as a rule, as to not ruin anything. Like Cryptum did.

  • 06.01.2011 11:43 AM PDT
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Thanks for Team Snipers Bungie.
Mythic Member, Legendary Member and back and forth. i just can't make up my mind!
Campaign - Halo C.E.>Halo 2>Halo 3
Multiplayer - Halo 2>Halo 3>Halo C.E.
Just about every thing I post is my opinion and nothing more. Be subjective. Respect other's opinions. Try to understand other's point of view.


Posted by: Techno Greek
I think that Greg Bear is a pretentious prick. I can't stand his descriptive style, narration, or what he chose to do with the story of the Forerunners. Before he came along, the story was simple, clear, and yet shrouded in mystery. No novel ever should have been written directly about a Forerunner, or from the point of view of a Forerunner. That kind of kills every cool thing about them.
I could not disagree more. As you unfold a story this is how it works. Answering some questions usually brings more in to light. I've also read other of his works and they were good too. Canon or not, most people agree that Cryptum is a good book and a fun read.

  • 06.01.2011 11:55 AM PDT

Posted by: notnooborelite

Posted by: Techno Greek
I think that Greg Bear is a pretentious prick. I can't stand his descriptive style, narration, or what he chose to do with the story of the Forerunners. Before he came along, the story was simple, clear, and yet shrouded in mystery. No novel ever should have been written directly about a Forerunner, or from the point of view of a Forerunner. That kind of kills every cool thing about them.
I could not disagree more. As you unfold a story this is how it works. Answering some questions usually brings more in to light. I've also read other of his works and they were good too. Canon or not, most people agree that Cryptum is a good book and a fun read.
Even if Bear's writing style is suited to the tastes of his fans, I'm arguing that his story shouldn't be part of the Halo universe. It might be great as a standalone piece, having nothing to do with Halo, but as it stands it seems very intrusive and convoluted. My feelings about Bear aside, I don't think his piece is a good addition to the story that I know and love.

Many reading Cryptum probably think "Cool, this is a good story. I'm glad someone finally set that part of the story straight for me in convenient book-form." Others, like me, pick it up and think "What the hell have they done? This is retarded. What asshat at Microsoft decided that they needed another author writing something with Halo stamped on it?"

  • 06.01.2011 12:11 PM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

Why am I seeing multiple people saying they thought humanity was created by the Forerunners? Not once was that ever stated or so much as hinted at. Nor that humanity are the Forerunners, you just had to read the Terminals for that.

From what I gather, people here are slating Cryptum for not following the way they interpreted the story. Pathetic reasoning, really.

  • 06.01.2011 12:12 PM PDT

Posted by: ajw34307
Why am I seeing multiple people saying they thought humanity was created by the Forerunners? Not once was that ever stated or so much as hinted at. Nor that humanity are the Forerunners, you just had to read the Terminals for that.

From what I gather, people here are slating Cryptum for not following the way they interpreted the story. Pathetic reasoning, really.
Yes, because multiple Forerunner ruins, the portal to the Ark included, being found in human space by the Covenant is pathetic reasoning.

Not to mention that the only good reason the Prophets would have for engaging in the genocide of humanity is to cover their asses.

  • 06.01.2011 12:16 PM PDT

Welcome to bungie, you have no rights. play nice!
CLICK!

[Techno Greek]
It just sounds like your [hurt] because your theory was not right...

  • 06.01.2011 12:20 PM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.


Posted by: Techno Greek
Posted by: ajw34307
Why am I seeing multiple people saying they thought humanity was created by the Forerunners? Not once was that ever stated or so much as hinted at. Nor that humanity are the Forerunners, you just had to read the Terminals for that.

From what I gather, people here are slating Cryptum for not following the way they interpreted the story. Pathetic reasoning, really.
Yes, because multiple Forerunner ruins, the portal to the Ark included, being found in human space by the Covenant is pathetic reasoning.


Yes it is pathetic reasoning, you clearly didn't read the Terminals if you still believed that. There were Forerunner ruins and a Keyship on the homeworld of the San'Shyuum, are they the Forerunners too?

Not to mention that the only good reason the Prophets would have for engaging in the genocide of humanity is to cover their asses.

Because of their misinterpretation.

  • 06.01.2011 12:26 PM PDT

Posted by: ajw34307

Posted by: Techno Greek
Posted by: ajw34307
Why am I seeing multiple people saying they thought humanity was created by the Forerunners? Not once was that ever stated or so much as hinted at. Nor that humanity are the Forerunners, you just had to read the Terminals for that.

From what I gather, people here are slating Cryptum for not following the way they interpreted the story. Pathetic reasoning, really.
Yes, because multiple Forerunner ruins, the portal to the Ark included, being found in human space by the Covenant is pathetic reasoning.


Yes it is pathetic reasoning, you clearly didn't read the Terminals if you still believed that. There were Forerunner ruins and a Keyship on the homeworld of the San'Shyuum, are they the Forerunners too?

Not to mention that the only good reason the Prophets would have for engaging in the genocide of humanity is to cover their asses.

Because of their misinterpretation.
I'll have to reread the terminals (I was playing on a CRT TV when Halo 3 was new and couldn't make out a word).

A big-ass Forerunner ship isn't as big of a discovery as a portal leading to the key to galactic genocide. Even if Bungie screwed their own story a bit (they tend to do that sometimes), it always just made sense that that was the case. Humanity were Forerunners (even Spark said it, rampant or not), the Prophets understood this, and frantically set about destroying all trace of us to cover their lies.

Also, let's not forget that it took a human touch to activate the Ark, and I'm pretty sure that Forerunner tech reacted to human touch specifically in Eric Nylund's "The Ghosts of Onyx".

  • 06.01.2011 12:37 PM PDT

We will know soon enough, but it will require thought. Deep thought. Mendicant Bias must be found. The Mantle will soon follow.

01010100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01001001 01110010 01101001 01110011 00100000 01101001 01110011 00100000 01101011 01100101 01111001 00101110


Posted by: ajw34307

Posted by: Techno Greek
Posted by: ajw34307
Why am I seeing multiple people saying they thought humanity was created by the Forerunners? Not once was that ever stated or so much as hinted at. Nor that humanity are the Forerunners, you just had to read the Terminals for that.

From what I gather, people here are slating Cryptum for not following the way they interpreted the story. Pathetic reasoning, really.
Yes, because multiple Forerunner ruins, the portal to the Ark included, being found in human space by the Covenant is pathetic reasoning.


Yes it is pathetic reasoning, you clearly didn't read the Terminals if you still believed that. There were Forerunner ruins and a Keyship on the homeworld of the San'Shyuum, are they the Forerunners too?

Not to mention that the only good reason the Prophets would have for engaging in the genocide of humanity is to cover their asses.

Because of their misinterpretation.


Quite right, good sir. And, I clearly recall the Sangheili being said to worship the Forerunner tech they'd come across (likely on Sanghelios in addition to the San' Shyuum homeworld and Terra), and they became near-enraged when anything were to "desecrate" such artifacts. I believe this is one trait the Sangheili originally distrusted of the San' Shyuum prior to and during their first contact, and original formation of The Covenant.

[Edited on 06.01.2011 12:41 PM PDT]

  • 06.01.2011 12:38 PM PDT
  • gamertag: sum0ne
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Thanks for Team Snipers Bungie.
Mythic Member, Legendary Member and back and forth. i just can't make up my mind!
Campaign - Halo C.E.>Halo 2>Halo 3
Multiplayer - Halo 2>Halo 3>Halo C.E.
Just about every thing I post is my opinion and nothing more. Be subjective. Respect other's opinions. Try to understand other's point of view.


Posted by: Techno Greek
Posted by: notnooborelite

Posted by: Techno Greek
I think that Greg Bear is a pretentious prick. I can't stand his descriptive style, narration, or what he chose to do with the story of the Forerunners. Before he came along, the story was simple, clear, and yet shrouded in mystery. No novel ever should have been written directly about a Forerunner, or from the point of view of a Forerunner. That kind of kills every cool thing about them.
I could not disagree more. As you unfold a story this is how it works. Answering some questions usually brings more in to light. I've also read other of his works and they were good too. Canon or not, most people agree that Cryptum is a good book and a fun read.
Even if Bear's writing style is suited to the tastes of his fans, I'm arguing that his story shouldn't be part of the Halo universe. It might be great as a standalone piece, having nothing to do with Halo, but as it stands it seems very intrusive and convoluted. My feelings about Bear aside, I don't think his piece is a good addition to the story that I know and love.

Many reading Cryptum probably think "Cool, this is a good story. I'm glad someone finally set that part of the story straight for me in convenient book-form." Others, like me, pick it up and think "What the hell have they done? This is retarded. What asshat at Microsoft decided that they needed another author writing something with Halo stamped on it?"

I see where you care coming from I just don't see it the same way. I thought it was masterfully done and I am not a fanboy. I didn't care for most of Legends. I didn't care for Contact Harvest.

The only thing I wasn't huge on was the humans being just as powerful as the Forunners and being de-evolved though I can live with it and work with it.

As far as the different author thing what do you expect? That's how things work. This isn't Harry Potter. Frankie did a very poor job. I'm glad he's not writing another book.

  • 06.01.2011 12:40 PM PDT

Posted by: Spartan 100
[Techno Greek]
It just sounds like your [hurt] because your theory was not right...
No, it kind of sounds like I'm irritated that a story I grew up with is being actively edited and rewritten with convoluted changes.

I have an idea: let's commission some new LOTR novels from Bear so that the Orcs are fighting for g@y rights and Gandalf is Frodo's father. It would clear up some canon issues and attract new fans.

  • 06.01.2011 12:43 PM PDT

Made an account in 2006. Visited Bungie.net in 2005. Joined Xbox Live in 2005. It's amazing to see how the site, Bungie, and Halo have evolved over the years. Utterly amazing.

I don't see why Cryptum would not be canon. Nothing in the book contradicts anything in the Halo Universe.

  • 06.01.2011 12:47 PM PDT

Posted by: notnooborelite

Posted by: Techno Greek
Posted by: notnooborelite

Posted by: Techno Greek
I think that Greg Bear is a pretentious prick. I can't stand his descriptive style, narration, or what he chose to do with the story of the Forerunners. Before he came along, the story was simple, clear, and yet shrouded in mystery. No novel ever should have been written directly about a Forerunner, or from the point of view of a Forerunner. That kind of kills every cool thing about them.
I could not disagree more. As you unfold a story this is how it works. Answering some questions usually brings more in to light. I've also read other of his works and they were good too. Canon or not, most people agree that Cryptum is a good book and a fun read.
Even if Bear's writing style is suited to the tastes of his fans, I'm arguing that his story shouldn't be part of the Halo universe. It might be great as a standalone piece, having nothing to do with Halo, but as it stands it seems very intrusive and convoluted. My feelings about Bear aside, I don't think his piece is a good addition to the story that I know and love.

Many reading Cryptum probably think "Cool, this is a good story. I'm glad someone finally set that part of the story straight for me in convenient book-form." Others, like me, pick it up and think "What the hell have they done? This is retarded. What asshat at Microsoft decided that they needed another author writing something with Halo stamped on it?"

I see where you care coming from I just don't see it the same way. I thought it was masterfully done and I am not a fanboy. I didn't care for most of Legends. I didn't care for Contact Harvest.

The only thing I wasn't huge on was the humans being just as powerful as the Forunners and being de-evolved though I can live with it and work with it.

As far as the different author thing what do you expect? That's how things work. This isn't Harry Potter. Frankie did a very poor job. I'm glad he's not writing another book.
I'll have to completely read Cryptum and try and give it another chance. I've been going off of synopsis and the few pages I read of it thus far, and I'm very irritated by Bear's style (once again, that's just me.)

I haven't read Contact: Harvest. It wasn't by Nylund, so I pretty much ignored it. I've heard good and bad things.

I'm a massive Fanboy, BTW, so sorry if I come off sounding like a Zealot...because I am.

  • 06.01.2011 12:53 PM PDT

Twitter | Nothing


Posted by: Lord Slade
Yes. Cryptum is more worthy of being canon than Halo: Reach or Halo Legends by far. It's easily the best Halo novel written to date.


Just because something is well written it does not mean that it has higher canon than other material.

@OP Take a look at the Guide to Canon in the Halo Universe thread.

  • 06.01.2011 1:11 PM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."


Posted by: Maimum FEAR

Posted by: Lord Slade
Yes. Cryptum is more worthy of being canon than Halo: Reach or Halo Legends by far. It's easily the best Halo novel written to date.


Just because something is well written it does not mean that it has higher canon than other material.

@OP Take a look at the Guide to Canon in the Halo Universe thread.


Don't try to reason with Slade, he won't listen and you will just waste your time.

  • 06.01.2011 1:13 PM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.


Posted by: RKOSNAKE

Posted by: Maimum FEAR

Posted by: Lord Slade
Yes. Cryptum is more worthy of being canon than Halo: Reach or Halo Legends by far. It's easily the best Halo novel written to date.


Just because something is well written it does not mean that it has higher canon than other material.

@OP Take a look at the Guide to Canon in the Halo Universe thread.


Don't try to reason with Slade, he won't listen and you will just waste your time.


Let's not derail the thread by causing an unnecessary argument now.

  • 06.01.2011 1:16 PM PDT