Bungie Universe
This topic has moved here: Subject: Do You Accept Cryptum as Canon?
  • Subject: Do You Accept Cryptum as Canon?
Subject: Do You Accept Cryptum as Canon?


Posted by: notnooborelite

Posted by: That Atheist
Also, read Contact Harvest. It and Cryptum are the two best Halo books in my opinion, and its technically "more cannon" in its depiction of the Halo universe than any other book, due to
the fact it was written by one of Halo's past writers.
Are you kidding? Contact Harvest killed canon. Brutes. I'm not going to get in to the discussion here so I'll leave it at that.


I don't understand......

  • 06.01.2011 7:44 PM PDT

Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: Killer Crunch
"You are the child of my makers, inheritor of all they left behind. YOU ARE FORERUNNER!!" 343 Guilty Spark

Again, adopted child is not ruled out in the first line.

As for the Forerunner part, how is about this. In Cryptum it was explained how the Forerunners chose that name for themselves to indicate their very short time as the upholders of the Mantle; their existence was fleeting in the grand scheme of things. Forerunner is not their true species name, it is a title of sorts, that they gave themselves. Literally, the word means to herald the approach of another (Or to that effect). Those who uphold the Mantle, because they are supposedly around for so little time compared to the lifetime of the universe, will always be expected to pass on the Mantle at some point, thus they will herald another to uptake the responsibility. Therefore, they too will be Forerunners in namesake. Therefore, Humanity becomes Forerunner in that respect, but they are not physically related to the Forerunner in any way.

Or for a less convoluted explanation, Spark was rampant, insane and had just murdered Sgt. Johnson and was trying to kill Chief. Why would anyone take him seriously at this point?


Seriously adopted? That just rings of cop out to me, a convenient excuse. What of Mendicant Bias, the most advanced A.I. of all time. He was the last hope of the Forerunner for defeating the Flood in flat out combat. After a protracted mental exchange between the two Bias was convinced that the Forerunner where detrimental to evolution in the Galaxy. He turned on his makers and annihilated the remaining Forerunner strongholds. Shortly before the Forerunner activated the halo network Offensive Bias was created to defeat Mendicant Bias, which he did, then his cores were scattered one of which ended up in the Forerunner capital ship that Truth uses to escape High Charity. So did the earlier stuff in this chain just not happen? Wasn't Bias's role reassigned in Cryptum? He was tasked with overseeing the Halo network. If that was his original purpose, why was he sent to combat the greatest threat the Forerunner had ever faced when he possessed detailed knowledge of the weapon system designed to defeat him, why were constructs like Guilty Spark and Penitent Tangent necessary?

[Edited on 06.02.2011 6:29 PM PDT]

  • 06.02.2011 6:20 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Killer Crunch
Seriously adopted? That just rings of cop out to me, a convenient excuse.

Explain why.

Posted by: Killer Crunch
What of Mendicant Bias, the most advanced A.I. of all time. He was the last hope of the Forerunner for defeating the Flood in flat out combat. After a protracted mental exchange between the two Bias was convinced that the Forerunner where detrimental to evolution in the Galaxy. He turned on his makers and annihilated the remaining Forerunner strongholds. Shortly before the Forerunner activated the halo network Offensive Bias was created to defeat Mendicant Bias, which he did, then his cores were scattered one of which ended up in the Forerunner capital ship that Truth uses to escape High Charity. So did the earlier stuff in this chain just not happen?

What does this have to do with your original argument of Humanity being physically related to/created by the Forerunner?

As a side note, none of this is overwritten. In Cryptum Mendicant Bias is missing for 40 years after being sent out to test a Halo. In the Terminals, Mendicant is roaming out beyond the Maginot line (We do not know what he is doing, therefore we could say that he was testing a Halo here), hears the calm voice of the Gravemind above the panic of the outer worlds and investigates. He then goes missing for 40 years here too.

Then the last we see of him in Cryptum is him initiating his attacks on the Forerunner at the Capitol. We see the start of his atrocities as described by the Terminals in Cryptum.

Posted by: Killer Crunch
Wasn't Bias's role reassigned in Cryptum? He was tasked with overseeing the Halo network. If that was his original purpose, why was he sent to combat the greatest threat the Forerunner had ever faced when he possessed detailed knowledge of the weapon system designed to defeat him,

A Halo ring is quite possibly the method in which Mendicant Bias was to destroy the Gravemind. They are not mutually exclusive. In the Terminals, he was created to combat the Gravemind. In Cryptum, he was created to control the Halo Array, or individual Halos. Halo is capable of localised bursts no larger than a solar system. Therefore he may have been created to destroy the Gravemind by taking control of a Halo ring (Or rings), battle off the Gravemind's fleets, insert the rings and fire them thus destroying the Gravemind.

Posted by: Killer Crunch
why were constructs like Guilty Spark and Penitent Tangent necessary?

Ranking structure.

In the Halo 3 multiplayer map Cold Storage, there is a monitor-like thing in the ceiling. It is there despite Delta Halo being ran by Penitent Tangent. Each ring may have sub-monitors for monitoring different systems in close detail, but Penitent Tangent/Guilty Spark level Monitors may be the big decision makers in the running of the ring, and who co-ordinate each system.

The question is, how do all the Rings themselves co-ordinate in a hostile situation? Answer: An even higher level AI. That is what Mendicant Bias may possibly be. He is not therefore responsible for running the systems of each Halo or co-ordinating these systems because that is the job of the Monitors. Instead, his job is to co-ordinate the Halo's themselves.

[Edited on 06.02.2011 7:13 PM PDT]

  • 06.02.2011 7:09 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Yes I'm fairly young. No, that doesn't mean I'm automatically dumber than you or have less life experience, thats just generally the case. I am not your general case.

Posted by: immadchill

Posted by: notnooborelite

Posted by: That Atheist
Also, read Contact Harvest. It and Cryptum are the two best Halo books in my opinion, and its technically "more cannon" in its depiction of the Halo universe than any other book, due to
the fact it was written by one of Halo's past writers.
Are you kidding? Contact Harvest killed canon. Brutes. I'm not going to get in to the discussion here so I'll leave it at that.


I don't understand......

The Brutes were in the Covenant for years before the events of Halo, since the mid-2400s I believe. They established that before Contact Harvest its just that some people apparently did not listen.

  • 06.02.2011 7:14 PM PDT

Dividing by zero since 1993.

Twitter | Whisper | Website

That's like asking if you accept CE as canon.

  • 06.02.2011 9:04 PM PDT

Bungie Pentathlon - who actually cares ?


Posted by: teh ajhallmon
That's like asking if you accept CE as canon.


This.

  • 06.03.2011 12:45 AM PDT

Don't worry, you're still your mom's favorite Bnet member.

Yes, it is canon. We cannot just go around saying "Oh I don't accept this Halo book/game as canon because I don't like it". Because if I don't like Halo 2, I can't just disregard it and fill in the blanks between Halo CE and Halo 3 for myself. It just doesn't work like that.

Except for the Star Wars prequels, THOSE AREN'T CANON.

  • 06.03.2011 8:38 AM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.


Posted by: MegaMuffin16
Except for the Star Wars prequels, THOSE AREN'T CANON.


You're my new best friend.

  • 06.03.2011 9:08 AM PDT


Posted by: MegaMuffin16
Yes, it is canon. We cannot just go around saying "Oh I don't accept this Halo book/game as canon because I don't like it". Because if I don't like Halo 2, I can't just disregard it and fill in the blanks between Halo CE and Halo 3 for myself. It just doesn't work like that.

Except for the Star Wars prequels, THOSE AREN'T CANON.


Agreed first part, lol at second part.

  • 06.03.2011 9:35 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Here we go...

  • 06.03.2011 10:05 AM PDT


Posted by: anton1792
Here we go...


Indeed, nothing like a good old double-standard.

  • 06.03.2011 11:21 AM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: notnooborelite
I'm very worried about Karen Traviss. A lot of people say she doesn't respect past canon and is more interest in writing "strong women" parts instead of the actual story. Except for her story in Legends i wouldn't know though.


Quite the opposite actually. Traviss is where we get the definitive Mandalorian culture from. At least until Lucas redid everything and made them peaceful, diplomatic people instead of the badass, warlike band of fighters we all know and love. And really, the argument she doesn't stick to canon is absurd as the Clone Wars saga has no real concrete canon and most people against her use a rejected Empire Strikes Back script as a weapon against her credibility.

I think we'll be fine with her.


I've only heard vague references to this mando change. Did it really go that far?

Though Mando warriors at that time period were pretty much wiped out. Least the most active ones...


Anyway, As long as Traviss doesn't make established characters act completely different, we should be fine.


Yeah, it really did make a significant change to their character. In everything before the Clone Wars tv series the Mandos were pretty much the Greek Spartans of Star Wars or the Roman Empire, they pretty much lived for fighting and warfare which is why so many of them make excellent bounty hunters.
And then Clone Wars made them pacifists and peaceful diplomats.
I have faith though that thing will be rectified given time, since a lot of the stuff in later Star Wars is dependant on the Mandalorians being warriors again.

But anyway, yeah, I completely trust Traviss, especially after reading Human Weakness in Evolutions, that story was just phenomenal.

  • 06.03.2011 11:57 AM PDT


Posted by: OrderedComa
Yeah, it really did make a significant change to their character. In everything before the Clone Wars tv series the Mandos were pretty much the Greek Spartans of Star Wars or the Roman Empire, they pretty much lived for fighting and warfare which is why so many of them make excellent bounty hunters.
And then Clone Wars made them pacifists and peaceful diplomats.
I have faith though that thing will be rectified given time, since a lot of the stuff in later Star Wars is dependant on the Mandalorians being warriors again.

But anyway, yeah, I completely trust Traviss, especially after reading Human Weakness in Evolutions, that story was just phenomenal.


Off topic, I remember dooku had lead an attack which killed most of the main mandalorian warriors. Perhaps those on their homeworld briefly went peaceful for survival?

Though... human weakness.. Was that with Cortana's forced rampancy by the gravemind? That was an interesting read.

  • 06.03.2011 12:05 PM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: OrderedComa
Yeah, it really did make a significant change to their character. In everything before the Clone Wars tv series the Mandos were pretty much the Greek Spartans of Star Wars or the Roman Empire, they pretty much lived for fighting and warfare which is why so many of them make excellent bounty hunters.
And then Clone Wars made them pacifists and peaceful diplomats.
I have faith though that thing will be rectified given time, since a lot of the stuff in later Star Wars is dependant on the Mandalorians being warriors again.

But anyway, yeah, I completely trust Traviss, especially after reading Human Weakness in Evolutions, that story was just phenomenal.


Off topic, I remember dooku had lead an attack which killed most of the main mandalorian warriors. Perhaps those on their homeworld briefly went peaceful for survival?

Though... human weakness.. Was that with Cortana's forced rampancy by the gravemind? That was an interesting read.


From what I know I don't think there was really any true Mandalorian government or anything of the sort at the time, and then the pacifists rose to power, I don't really know the specifics.

Yes, that's the one. Indeed it was, it's one of my favorite stories in Evolutions, I'm looking forward to what Traviss will do with her Halo trilogy.

  • 06.03.2011 12:55 PM PDT

The halo rings where meant to kill Sapient life. Their intent was probably not to kill the Gravemind he had probably become to powerful to be killed in such a manner. The rings were meant to kill his food source. Which at that point was probably only the Forerunner as all other sufficiently advanced life in the Galaxy had probably been consumed already. The rings however where still a back up plan in case Mendicant Bias failed to stop the Forerunner. After Bias's fall into rampancy at the hands of the Gravemind they new they had to activate their final back up plan. By killing themselves they could then ensure that the Gravemind would starve to death, which he obviously didn't he somehow found a way to live off the power supplies of delta halo. Which explains why a fully formed Gravemind just happened to being lying in wait on the ring. Of course they could not have known this would happen. One would think he would die during the firing of the network but it shouldn't be to surprising that a being of its intellectual caliber would find a way to escape. But before the final firing the Forerunner made humanity. They new the rings would kill all life in the galaxy with enough high level thinking skills but they also had to pass on the Mantel so they created humanity, they also created the Engineers and the Lekgolo, but they were made at different times for different reasons and they would not inherit the Mantle. Humanity was crafted in their image but because they were at a lower intellectual level, probably around the level of cave men, they would survive the firing of the network. In Cryptum Humanity is running around on steamships in sea monster clogged seas. Species with high level thinking skills would have been killed when the network was activated so humanity as portrayed in this new book would have been killed. Or did they "devolve" us again. This is Halo not Digimon god damn it.

Oh and this thread is about HALO not Star wars.

[Edited on 06.03.2011 2:50 PM PDT]

  • 06.03.2011 2:49 PM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.


Posted by: Killer Crunch
The halo rings where meant to kill Sapient life. Their intent was probably not to kill the Gravemind he had probably become to powerful to be killed in such a manner. The rings were meant to kill his food source. Which at that point was probably only the Forerunner as all other sufficiently advanced life in the Galaxy had probably been consumed already. The rings however where still a back up plan in case Mendicant Bias failed to stop the Forerunner. After Bias's fall into rampancy at the hands of the Gravemind they new they had to activate their final back up plan. By killing themselves they could then ensure that the Gravemind would starve to death, which he obviously didn't he somehow found a way to live off the power supplies of delta halo. Which explains why a fully formed Gravemind just happened to being lying in wait on the ring. Of course they could not have known this would happen. One would think he would die during the firing of the network but it shouldn't be to surprising that a being of its intellectual caliber would find a way to escape. But before the final firing the Forerunner made humanity. They new the rings would kill all life in the galaxy with enough high level thinking skills but they also had to pass on the Mantel so they created humanity, they also created the Engineers and the Lekgolo, but they were made at different times for different reasons and they would not inherit the Mantle. Humanity was crafted in their image but because they were at a lower intellectual level, probably around the level of cave men, they would survive the firing of the network. In Cryptum Humanity is running around on steamships in sea monster clogged seas. Species with high level thinking skills would have been killed when the network was activated so humanity as portrayed in this new book would have been killed. Or did they "devolve" us again. This is Halo not Digimon god damn it.

Oh and this thread is about HALO not Star wars.


What is this utter drivel you have conjured up? Use paragraphs so my eyes don't start bleeding please.

  • 06.03.2011 2:56 PM PDT

Don't worry, you're still your mom's favorite Bnet member.

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Posted by: MegaMuffin16
Yes, it is canon. We cannot just go around saying "Oh I don't accept this Halo book/game as canon because I don't like it". Because if I don't like Halo 2, I can't just disregard it and fill in the blanks between Halo CE and Halo 3 for myself. It just doesn't work like that.

Except for the Star Wars prequels, THOSE AREN'T CANON.


Agreed first part, lol at second part.
Thanks, and THEY'RE NOT.

  • 06.03.2011 3:27 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Killer Crunch
The halo rings where meant to kill Sapient life. Their intent was probably not to kill the Gravemind he had probably become to powerful to be killed in such a manner. The rings were meant to kill his food source. Which at that point was probably only the Forerunner as all other sufficiently advanced life in the Galaxy had probably been consumed already. The rings however where still a back up plan in case Mendicant Bias failed to stop the Forerunner. After Bias's fall into rampancy at the hands of the Gravemind they new they had to activate their final back up plan. By killing themselves they could then ensure that the Gravemind would starve to death, which he obviously didn't he somehow found a way to live off the power supplies of delta halo. Which explains why a fully formed Gravemind just happened to being lying in wait on the ring. Of course they could not have known this would happen. One would think he would die during the firing of the network but it shouldn't be to surprising that a being of its intellectual caliber would find a way to escape.

Halo destroys more than Sapience. Anything with a nervous system is destroyed. The Gravemind is a fusion of certain minds and bodies, so its core will be made of the central nervous system of those first forms put into it, like Captain Keyes. He formed the basis of the proto-Gravemind in the Flood. That is a vulnerability that Halo would target. Graveminds are not resistant to Halo, otherwise the Gravemind would not have bothered his arse in trying to persuade you from firing Halo above the Ark.

Halo will not affect pure forms though, because they have no nervous system. That includes infection forms. In order to finish the Flood, all life in the galaxy had to be destroyed otherwise the Flood would just build new Graveminds and keep on spreading. The Didact hoped however to eliminate the Gravemind thus making the sprawling Flood infestation easier to control and eradicate. At this point it would be too late though. Thus the Halo Array was used for a full galaxy wide burst.

What I suspect Didact was thinking was that whilst the Halo Array was being built to destroy the galaxy's lifeforms, Didact built MB to control the Array (Or parts of it) and attack the Gravemind. However, like I explained in my second paragraph, he realised the futileness of this and fired the whole lot. MB can be built to control the array and fight the Gravemind with it as an intermediate plan, with the Halo array being the long term plan from the beginning.

Posted by: Killer Crunch
But before the final firing the Forerunner made humanity. They new the rings would kill all life in the galaxy with enough high level thinking skills but they also had to pass on the Mantel so they created humanity, they also created the Engineers and the Lekgolo, but they were made at different times for different reasons and they would not inherit the Mantle.

They did not need to create a species after the array fired, because they have got the Ark and the Librarian's project. Humanity was relocated there when the rings were fired.

What evidence is there for the Forerunner creating the Lekgolo?

Posted by: Killer Crunch
Humanity was crafted in their image but because they were at a lower intellectual level, probably around the level of cave men, they would survive the firing of the network.

Everything with a nervous system is destroyed. Even Cavemen have remarkably complex nervous systems in comparison to other creatures.

Posted by: Killer Crunch
In Cryptum Humanity is running around on steamships in sea monster clogged seas. Species with high level thinking skills would have been killed when the network was activated so humanity as portrayed in this new book would have been killed. Or did they "devolve" us again. This is Halo not Digimon god damn it.

There is nothing for the Forerunner creating Humanity. I would advise reading the Terminals again.

  • 06.03.2011 3:59 PM PDT

[url*=http://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=167323][i mg*]http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp351/Vrai_2/toxicpurp leuserbar.png[/img*][/url*]

of course, it hasnt explained everything ( the points it brings up just downright mess with existing canon) but it is a 3 book series remember, we shouldnt complain about canon errors till book 3

  • 06.03.2011 4:01 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

*sigh*

I give up.

  • 06.03.2011 4:39 PM PDT

Welcome to bungie, you have no rights. play nice!
CLICK!


Posted by: anton1792
*sigh*

I give up.

These people... some so stubborn!

  • 06.03.2011 6:24 PM PDT

Here's something interesting: Cryptum is convoluted, stupid drivel that has no place in the Halo canon and irreversibly damaged the awesome story that was in place before it came along, even if it had errors before.

I don't care if it doesn't rewrite or contradict anything. I don't care if the dialog in the games can be warped to fit the new story. I care that everyone seems to think that sticking new, stupid backstory into every place it can fit isn't as bad as completely rewriting it. It is.

The Forerunners didn't engineer the Flood as pets. Humanity weren't servants to the Forerunners, and didn't get "devolved" by them for whatever goddammed reason. The Prophets, Elites, and every other species in the Covenant were pre-industrial at the time of the Halo's firing, and never had any knowing contact with the Forerunners. You know how I know this? Because I've been a fan for ten years and have a brain in my head.

If something sucks, don't include it. It's as simple as that. The Forerunner's conflict with The Flood never should have had an in-depth novel to begin with. You know why? Because they were mysterious.

It's clear that nobody in the Universe forum seems to take continuity seriously. Or writing seriously, for that matter. Stealing a story's grace to fill in a few gaps makes for a dead, bloated work. Greg Bear killed it, guys.

If you played the games and made inferences as to what the Forerunners were, why the Covenant attacked humanity, ect, maybe read The Fall of Reach and Nylund's other two, non-intrusive novels (his novels never destroyed anything, only built the characters and made the universe tick a little better so don't even start with the "you can't say it about Nylund without saying it about Bear" crap), then you know the story.

I don't think anyone had a problem figuring out 1. Humanity are Forerunner (only we can activate their tech), 2. The Covenant went to war because the Prophets realized this and were trying hard to cover their asses (why else? They just force all other species to join), and 3., once again, the Species of the Covenant were all pre-industrial at the time of the Halos firing and had no part in wars, servitude, or trade (that's -blam!- retarded) with Forerunners pre-activation.

I don't know who's idea it was to let someone as pretentious as Bear write a Halo novel, but they need to be shot.



[Edited on 06.03.2011 10:18 PM PDT]

  • 06.03.2011 10:17 PM PDT

Welcome to bungie, you have no rights. play nice!
CLICK!

I'd call you dumb but I'd probably get banned.

The forerunners didn't engineer flood as pets.. I don't know where you got that idea from. Humans were the servants of the Librarian who saved their specie after the human-forerunner war. You sure you have a brain in your head? Wouldn't it be more like, nothing inside?
As I said, you're probably mad because your theories weren't right. You think you know but you do not. You want to be right but refuse the truth. You're stubborn to the insane and you should get out of this forum because all you're doing is clogging it up.
Do you understand Techno Greek? Do you understand?

  • 06.03.2011 10:28 PM PDT

Posted by: Spartan 100
I'd call you dumb but I'd probably get banned.

The forerunners didn't engineer flood as pets.. I don't know where you got that idea from. Humans were the servants of the Librarian who saved their specie after the human-forerunner war. You sure you have a brain in your head? Wouldn't it be more like, nothing inside?
As I said, you're probably mad because your theories weren't right. You think you know but you do not. You want to be right but refuse the truth. You're stubborn to the insane and you should get out of this forum because all you're doing is clogging it up.
Do you understand Techno Greek? Do you understand?
D'awww, ad hominym is cool, isn't it? I think you just made me sad over the internet...wait, that doesn't happen, does it?

I'll give you a simple version: The Halo canon was cooler, deeper, and all around healthier before this novel came along.

  • 06.03.2011 10:34 PM PDT

Welcome to bungie, you have no rights. play nice!
CLICK!


Posted by: Techno Greek
Posted by: Spartan 100
I'd call you dumb but I'd probably get banned.

The forerunners didn't engineer flood as pets.. I don't know where you got that idea from. Humans were the servants of the Librarian who saved their specie after the human-forerunner war. You sure you have a brain in your head? Wouldn't it be more like, nothing inside?
As I said, you're probably mad because your theories weren't right. You think you know but you do not. You want to be right but refuse the truth. You're stubborn to the insane and you should get out of this forum because all you're doing is clogging it up.
Do you understand Techno Greek? Do you understand?
D'awww, ad hominym is cool, isn't it? I think you just made me sad over the internet...wait, that doesn't happen, does it?

I'll give you a simple version: The Halo canon was cooler, deeper, and all around healthier before this novel came along.


I'll tell you what seems to be the problem with you:

You're hurt because things aren't the way you thought they were and they weren't even set in stone in the first place.
Suck it up, suck it up, suck it up.

  • 06.03.2011 10:38 PM PDT