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  • Subject: Do You Accept Cryptum as Canon?
Subject: Do You Accept Cryptum as Canon?


Posted by: George 257
The Precursors were mentioned in the Bestiarum as the race preceding and mythologized by the Forerunner, being theoretical "Transsentient" beings, having the ability to travel among galaxies and accelerate the evolution of intelligent life. The Precursors achieved a higher level technological advancement than the Forerunners, being Tier-0, or Transsentience on the Forerunners' Technological Achievement Scale.

I assume this is before Cryptum

History
Not much is known about them, but information that can be found by text from the logs stored in the Terminals around the Ark indicates it is possible that the Forerunner 'Mantle' (Guardians of the Galaxy and all life) was handed down from "legends of the past": the Precursors. It has been presumed that the Precursors viewed the Forerunners as their own legacy, continuing their work after they departed, much in the same way Forerunner lifeworkers (including the greatest lifeworker: the Librarian) viewed Humanity before the activation of the rings. Having obtained the status of Tier-0, it is likely that the Precursors can travel between galaxies.
Precursors are described as "very large", with 4 upper limbs and 2 legs. Also having an "ugly head shaped like arthropods" - like spiders or crabs - they have oval, faceted slanted eyes and a "flat face". Coming from the back of the head is a long tail with a 2 meter barb coming out of it. Whether this is the way all Precursors look has yet to be revealed, but this is the way the prisoner on a Pre-Human world is described.

It is also revealed that this prisoner is the last known Precursor, and that every other Precursor had been ruthlessly killed in a Forerunner-Precursor war almost 150,000 years before the events of Halo and that their answer is at hand - implying that a Proto-Flood form (described as a fine dust, contained in hundreds of glass cylinders) were created as revenge or as a failsafe.


This is Cryptum. Compare them.

For me, this is just as unacceptable as Halo: Legends.


What the frak are you babbling about? Cryptum hasn't changed anything.

And much of the text in the quotes you posted are merely fan speculation that isn't exactly backed up by fact. All we know for fact is what the Prisoner looks like, and we can only assume that's how the rest of the Precursors look. But so what if they're ugly space monsters? Just because they're a supremely advanced civilization doesn't mean that they're automatically pretty or something pleasing to look at. I mean look at the Chozo in the Metroid series, they're rather ugly looking bird-people, yet they were the most advance species in Metroid and most tech is based off of theirs.

  • 06.04.2011 1:32 PM PDT

Many gave their lives so that we could live on. I intend to honor them by remembering them. Remember Cyborg. Remember John. Remember Noble.

Posted by: OrderedComa

What the frak are you babbling about? Cryptum hasn't changed anything.

And much of the text in the quotes you posted are merely fan speculation that isn't exactly backed up by fact. All we know for fact is what the Prisoner looks like, and we can only assume that's how the rest of the Precursors look. But so what if they're ugly space monsters? Just because they're a supremely advanced civilization doesn't mean that they're automatically pretty or something pleasing to look at. I mean look at the Chozo in the Metroid series, they're rather ugly looking bird-people, yet they were the most advance species in Metroid and most tech is based off of theirs.


I do not care for their appearance.

[Edited on 06.04.2011 2:25 PM PDT]

  • 06.04.2011 2:24 PM PDT


Posted by: George 257
Posted by: OrderedComa

What the frak are you babbling about? Cryptum hasn't changed anything.

And much of the text in the quotes you posted are merely fan speculation that isn't exactly backed up by fact. All we know for fact is what the Prisoner looks like, and we can only assume that's how the rest of the Precursors look. But so what if they're ugly space monsters? Just because they're a supremely advanced civilization doesn't mean that they're automatically pretty or something pleasing to look at. I mean look at the Chozo in the Metroid series, they're rather ugly looking bird-people, yet they were the most advance species in Metroid and most tech is based off of theirs.


I do not care for their appearance.


Well that's fine, nothing wrong with not liking something, but that doesn't mean that Cryptum has ret-conned or changed anything (which it hasn't). The only things that have changed are fan theories and interpretations which weren't necessarily canon to begin with.

  • 06.04.2011 3:15 PM PDT
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"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact


Posted by: George 257
You have no idea what Halo is!

The original concept:
-Forerunners are extremely advanced race of nice guys, who sacrificed themselves for Humans. They left their legacy to Humans.
- Precursors were even more advanced than them a much like the Forerunners, they left their legacy to Forerunners. They were probably nice guys too.

Point is I'm getting sick of the paranoia concerning Forerunners and Precursors.

Turning away from Marathon:
Don't tell me you didn't notice any similarities between Halo and Marathon.
- Forerunners resemble Jjaro in being extremely advanced race(?) who left the universe. Jjaro became God-like.
- Cyborg is very much like Chief.
- Forerunner glyph for Reclaimer is the Marathon logo
- AI Durandal, Leela, Tycho guide (in a manner) the Cyborg through the game. As Cortana and 343 Guilty Spark guide Chief.
I could go on...

Point is that Halo didn't have these similarities to Marathon due to Bungie being unoriginal, but because they wanted us to feel at home when we played Halo, isn't that right?
If a book or a comic turns too far away from the idea of Halo - what is it then? Why would I think it is good?




-So i guess you had a secret look at the inside of their civilisation huh?Seriously,the only time we had a real look at them before Cryptum and Origins were the Halo 3 terminals.
And.......according to the terminals the 4runners stripped all other species of their tech and power(can't find the quote).

-???HAHAHAH!!
Listen kid some very advanced species like the 4runners become too arrogant and start act like douchbags,thinknig they are the best,it wouldn't surprise me if the Precursors were like that as well.
Nothing in Halo fiction agrees with your ponit,it's all personal opinion on your part,in others words invalid,can't be used.

I'll ignore the rest of your post as it involves Marathon,you think 343 industries will look at marathon??It's not their game.
If you want to see some marathon elements in a story then wait for Bungies new IP or ignore 343 industries Halo products.

  • 06.04.2011 3:23 PM PDT

"You are who you dare"

You owe it to yourself to get out and be someone. Get to work!

-Leader of The Citadel

Posted by: privet caboose
Cryptum is my favorite piece of canon.

Amazing story. Amazing Characters. Amazing everything.

  • 06.04.2011 7:33 PM PDT

Just wanted to say that I was like alot of people in this topic when it came to cryptum and after reading it on halopedia I really thought it had destroyed a awesome part of the halo universe.

BUT after finishing the book in one day I can say it is now one of my favorite parts of the halo universe. It expands the halo universe and in fact makes it that much better, and I now think halo has one of the greatest background's of any video game I have ever played.

With the flood coming from pets thing, in the book I see it as this; humanity found this strange organic but wasn't alive substance that they found mildly useful, so humanity spread this stuff throughout it's empire because they didn't think it was a threat. So it makes the flood seems even more mysterious because you get the feeling that it was planned so it could be spread in its early stages.

  • 06.04.2011 8:07 PM PDT

Many gave their lives so that we could live on. I intend to honor them by remembering them. Remember Cyborg. Remember John. Remember Noble.

Posted by: hotshot revan II

-So i guess you had a secret look at the inside of their civilisation huh?Seriously,the only time we had a real look at them before Cryptum and Origins were the Halo 3 terminals.
And.......according to the terminals the 4runners stripped all other species of their tech and power(can't find the quote).

-???HAHAHAH!!
Listen kid some very advanced species like the 4runners become too arrogant and start act like douchbags,thinknig they are the best,it wouldn't surprise me if the Precursors were like that as well.
Nothing in Halo fiction agrees with your ponit,it's all personal opinion on your part,in others words invalid,can't be used.

I'll ignore the rest of your post as it involves Marathon,you think 343 industries will look at marathon??It's not their game.
If you want to see some marathon elements in a story then wait for Bungies new IP or ignore 343 industries Halo products.



- Before-Cryptum information points out that "The Forerunners were a wise, highly intelligent, noble people and with a belief in justice, in peace, they bravely faced the adversary. They sought to sterilize it."
"Their civilization was based around the Mantle, a belief that it was their role to protect all life in the galaxy. They presumably monitored the evolution of other sentient species throughout the galaxy, intervening in ways that ensured their civilizations would follow paths of peace, free of conflict."
Also, they are gone from the universe, sacrificed themselves for other/"lesser" races because they couldn't defeat the Flood, but wanted the other races to live (that was their idea, wasn't it?)

Now these are just points. What Greg Bear has written didn't break canon nor is it impossible. But his "details" have changed the inbeing of Forerunners.
Greg's Forerunners are arrogant cut-throats.
Before-Cryptum Forerunners are mysterious kind people that gave their lives for humans and other races.
Why would I want to believe Greg Bear's story? Just because he gave me "details"? I would rather be kept in dark!


- "The Forerunners show some similarities (their highly advanced technology and the fact that they mysteriously vanished) to the Jjaro, a race of aliens from a previous Bungie game, Marathon. The concept of a highly advanced extinct race leaving technological relics behind is not a new concept..."

Also, I'm no kid to you. If you are going to ignore Marathon, then I won't bother arguing with you about wheter Marathon elements are good or not. Because you just will not see the amounts of awesome they produce. Also, where do you think "We'll see you starside" is from?



[Edited on 06.05.2011 12:38 AM PDT]

  • 06.05.2011 12:16 AM PDT
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Yes I'm fairly young. No, that doesn't mean I'm automatically dumber than you or have less life experience, thats just generally the case. I am not your general case.

Posted by: George 257
Posted by: hotshot revan II

-So i guess you had a secret look at the inside of their civilisation huh?Seriously,the only time we had a real look at them before Cryptum and Origins were the Halo 3 terminals.
And.......according to the terminals the 4runners stripped all other species of their tech and power(can't find the quote).

-???HAHAHAH!!
Listen kid some very advanced species like the 4runners become too arrogant and start act like douchbags,thinknig they are the best,it wouldn't surprise me if the Precursors were like that as well.
Nothing in Halo fiction agrees with your ponit,it's all personal opinion on your part,in others words invalid,can't be used.

I'll ignore the rest of your post as it involves Marathon,you think 343 industries will look at marathon??It's not their game.
If you want to see some marathon elements in a story then wait for Bungies new IP or ignore 343 industries Halo products.




- Before-Cryptum information points out that "The Forerunners were a wise, highly intelligent, noble people and with a belief in justice, in peace, they bravely faced the adversary. They sought to sterilize it."
"Their civilization was based around the Mantle, a belief that it was their role to protect all life in the galaxy. They presumably monitored the evolution of other sentient species throughout the galaxy, intervening in ways that ensured their civilizations would follow paths of peace, free of conflict."
Also, they are gone from the universe, sacrificed themselves for other/"lesser" races because they couldn't defeat the Flood, but wanted the other races to live (that was their idea, wasn't it?)

Now these are just points. What Greg Bear has written didn't break canon nor is it impossible. But his "details" have changed the inbeing of Forerunners.
Greg's Forerunners are arrogant cut-throats.
Before-Cryptum Forerunners are mysterious kind people that gave their lives for humans and other races.
Why would I want to believe Greg Bear's story? Just because he gave me "details"? I would rather be kept in dark!


- "The Forerunners show some similarities (their highly advanced technology and the fact that they mysteriously vanished) to the Jjaro, a race of aliens from a previous Bungie game, Marathon. The concept of a highly advanced extinct race leaving technological relics behind is not a new concept..."

If you are going to ignore Marathon, then I won't bother arguing with you about wheter Marathon elements are good or not. Because you just will not see the amounts of awesome they produce. Also, where do you think "We'll see you starside" is from?


Greg Bears Forerunners were exactly what I predicted the Forerunners to be like. They exhibit an aura peacefulness and kindness but as with all sentient life, that is always a facade for what is really going on. I always suspected there was more to the Forerunners than the terminals told us, that they weren't a bunch of space hippies. Greg Bears Forerunners are more human, more realistic, than the vague terminal descriptions ever were and as the opening to the book states, the history of the Forerunners has been converted over the years to something unrecognizable to him, an obvious reference to how previous Halo media has shown them as loving peace keepers, while Cryptum shows them as a more realistic species with faults and weaknesses. All in all, Cryptum's depiction of the Forerunners was easily the best and it never broke cannon, not once and the only problem with it that I can find cannon wise is that people like you are butthurt the sudden realization that the Forerunners were not at all like the fans had theorized.

  • 06.05.2011 12:39 AM PDT

Many gave their lives so that we could live on. I intend to honor them by remembering them. Remember Cyborg. Remember John. Remember Noble.

Posted by: That Atheist

Greg Bears Forerunners were exactly what I predicted the Forerunners to be like. They exhibit an aura peacefulness and kindness but as with all sentient life, that is always a facade for what is really going on. I always suspected there was more to the Forerunners than the terminals told us, that they weren't a bunch of space hippies. Greg Bears Forerunners are more human, more realistic, than the vague terminal descriptions ever were and as the opening to the book states, the history of the Forerunners has been converted over the years to something unrecognizable to him, an obvious reference to how previous Halo media has shown them as loving peace keepers, while Cryptum shows them as a more realistic species with faults and weaknesses. All in all, Cryptum's depiction of the Forerunners was easily the best and it never broke cannon, not once and the only problem with it that I can find cannon wise is that people like you are butthurt the sudden realization that the Forerunners were not at all like the fans had theorized.


I was ready to have decent discussion with you before I read the last sentence.
Sure Greg Bear's view is more realistic and more human. I do know he doesn't break canon. He brings some light to the darkness. He creates cool ways to explain where humanity has come from etc. I understand why you guys like it.

But what he does is profanation of the story. These Forerunners are a product of paranoic mind that simply doesn't believe that something so nice could be so good - so makes them cutthroats. By showing us this realistic and dark side of Forerunners, he destroys the original beautiful concept of "taking after the loving civilization far more advanced than you are".

I understand his job isn't easy - he has to write a good book and tied with tape of fans and facts he didn't make up. But he could have shown other "darker side" of the Forerunners. He could have made them weak, lifeless, far too gentle, maybe even corrupt - which would be the reason for The Flood to come.

The idea of The Flood being a vengeance measure made by Precursors for being nearly destroyed - this simply takes everything good about Precursors and Forerunners.

I wouldn't bother arguing if he didn't break the concept. I have went on not arguing about Forerunners for 4 years. But this is really bad.

  • 06.05.2011 1:05 AM PDT
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Yes I'm fairly young. No, that doesn't mean I'm automatically dumber than you or have less life experience, thats just generally the case. I am not your general case.

Posted by: George 257
Posted by: That Atheist

Greg Bears Forerunners were exactly what I predicted the Forerunners to be like. They exhibit an aura peacefulness and kindness but as with all sentient life, that is always a facade for what is really going on. I always suspected there was more to the Forerunners than the terminals told us, that they weren't a bunch of space hippies. Greg Bears Forerunners are more human, more realistic, than the vague terminal descriptions ever were and as the opening to the book states, the history of the Forerunners has been converted over the years to something unrecognizable to him, an obvious reference to how previous Halo media has shown them as loving peace keepers, while Cryptum shows them as a more realistic species with faults and weaknesses. All in all, Cryptum's depiction of the Forerunners was easily the best and it never broke cannon, not once and the only problem with it that I can find cannon wise is that people like you are butthurt the sudden realization that the Forerunners were not at all like the fans had theorized.


I was ready to have decent discussion with you before I read the last sentence.
Sure Greg Bear's view is more realistic and more human. I do know he doesn't break canon. He brings some light to the darkness. He creates cool ways to explain where humanity has come from etc. I understand why you guys like it.

But what he does is profanation of the story. These Forerunners are a product of paranoic mind that simply doesn't believe that something so nice could be so good - so makes them cutthroats. By showing us this realistic and dark side of Forerunners, he destroys the original beautiful concept of "taking after the loving civilization far more advanced than you are".

I understand his job isn't easy - he has to write a good book and tied with tape of fans and facts he didn't make up. But he could have shown other "darker side" of the Forerunners. He could have made them weak, lifeless, far too gentle, maybe even corrupt - which would be the reason for The Flood to come.

The idea of The Flood being a vengeance measure made by Precursors for being nearly destroyed - this simply takes everything good about Precursors and Forerunners.

I wouldn't bother arguing if he didn't break the concept. I have went on not arguing about Forerunners for 4 years. But this is really bad.

I think this all comes down to the moral issue of whats good and whats not. You see good as a sort of angel on my shoulder type being, an omnipotent, which is what the Forerunners used to be depicted as. I see good as someone who does something for the better of life itself, even if that action be evil in nature. Greg Bears Forerunners maybe cutthroats, yes but they still gave much to stop the Flood. Eventually they gave everything. And that still makes them heroes.

As for the precursors, I don't what to say. We knew they existed before Cryptum but we knew next to nothing about them. So I really never saw them as good to begin with, because I knew nothing about them, so I was not at all surprised by the fact they were actually fairly malevolent and dark in Cryptum. In fact, it seemed kind of natural. Nothing reaches such great power unless they push the other players out of the way first, though I would have suspected they were much kinder in there "pushing" then they were in Cryptum. Still it wasn't much of a change, so again, really nothing to get to surprised over.

Just my opinion though.

  • 06.05.2011 1:18 AM PDT

Many gave their lives so that we could live on. I intend to honor them by remembering them. Remember Cyborg. Remember John. Remember Noble.

I think this all comes down to the moral issue of whats good and whats not. You see good as a sort of angel on my shoulder type being, an omnipotent, which is what the Forerunners used to be depicted as. I see good as someone who does something for the better of life itself, even if that action be evil in nature. Greg Bears Forerunners maybe cutthroats, yes but they still gave much to stop the Flood. Eventually they gave everything. And that still makes them heroes.

As for the precursors, I don't what to say. We knew they existed before Cryptum but we knew next to nothing about them. So I really never saw them as good to begin with, because I knew nothing about them, so I was not at all surprised by the fact they were actually fairly malevolent and dark in Cryptum. In fact, it seemed kind of natural. Nothing reaches such great power unless they push the other players out of the way first, though I would have suspected they were much kinder in there "pushing" then they were in Cryptum. Still it wasn't much of a change, so again, really nothing to get to surprised over.

Just my opinion though.


Yes, it is about morale. My point is: What does the story give me? What does it mean?
I'm being quite practical with this. The image I had gave me the idea that the gifts I accept are good and come from good hands. I can easily take after somebody and not have to feel guilty or any pressure.
Bear's image gave me idea of mistrust and scepticism. I've got to admit I don't value these traits at all. But this isn't just Bear, there are others...


As with the Precursors I had the idea that if Humanity takes after Forerunners (who would be heroes, protectors etc.) then so it would be with Precursors and Forerunners. I took it that Forerunners got these ideas of peace and love from the Precursors. Maybe indirectly. Maybe the Precursors simply left to achieve godhood and Forerunners made The Mantle up.

If the Forerunners took the galaxy (The Mantle?) by force, then the philosophy would be be propaganda instead, a lie by the Forerunners to justify their violence against the Precursors.

No inheriting anything, just sheer fight for survival and dominance.

  • 06.05.2011 1:44 AM PDT
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"Awesomeness will ensue..."

BEN SPARTAN120

I enjoyed the book quite a bit, actually. It was very well written, and I was thoroughly surprised by how well it captured my imagination. The fact that it was Hard-Sci-Fi just made it even better.

Canon-wise, I accept the novel because:

1. Greg Bear [the fantastic novelist that he is] was working hand in hand with 343i whilst basing his information on Bungie's most up-to-date Halo Story Bible. On a side note, it also appears that Greg is on the advisory board for the fiction/continuing story element of 343 studios though of this I am not sure, however this would have implications on the canon of his specific story.

2. He is exploring elements of the universe we have yet to gain any in-depth knowledge about, 'we' being the community/fan-base.

If people are having issues [though it is entirely possible everyone liked the book, I'm not sure because I skipped over every other post :D ] we can always take into account the fact so many folk keep reminding me about:

Game Canon > Book Canon

Given this reality, technically, Cryptum should have lower status as canon in the available knowledge base for fans, however that too, is open to speculation.

  • 06.05.2011 1:56 AM PDT