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This topic has moved here: Subject: If TFoR was never written..
  • Subject: If TFoR was never written..
Subject: If TFoR was never written..


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: HipiO7
Posted by: Cheeto666
Halo 2 still has the best story. But I still really like Reach. I liked Bungie's battle of Reach better than Nylunds.


I agree with this. I liked the idea of Reach falling after a month of battles, not just in less than two hours as in the novels.

I follow that camp too. It just seems like Nylund got lazy with the ending by having 314 ships Zerg Rush Reach.


My issue was this.

A: They say if the generators remained online, the line would hold due to the super-macs and having the dust cloud from the destroyed repair stations.
B: In the book, on the 30th a 'zerg rush' of phantoms and spirits got to the poles.
C: Within an hour or two, the generators are overrun. Aren't these places supposed to be the most-guarded UNSC facility (bar High-COM maybe, though I'd rather High-COM have fewer guards to ensure the generators remained running.) on Reach? How are they wiped out that damn quick when the covenant just had dropship deployed forces?

Overall, it just seems like the most defended places of Reach fell way to dang easy...

Edit: Oh, forgot, the UNSC typically had the advantage/won ground battles, which makes it even more crazy.


1) We didn't know how many troops landed at the poles.

2) Reaching falling that easily is what made it good. It was Pearl Harbor all over again; we could do nothing in the face of the Covenant.

People seem to think of the Human/Covenant Wars as just another random War that we happened to be losing. We weren't just losing we were being destroyed in every battle we fought. In fact, the only realy victory in the entire war up to that point was Sigma Octanus IV; Cole always lost thousands of men with each fight, despite the "victories" he brought, and Harvest, I feel, was given up because the Covenant found what they wanted and left.

Reach surviving for a month with as little as a few ships here and there doesn't make any sense at all. The planet was invaded by 700 ships to our 300 something. It was a hopeless battle from the start, and that made it more dramatic and impactful. It was the fact it was so unexpected for our fortress world to fall so quickly that made it good. The battle in the book's point was trying to prove to the reader the entire war was hopeless for humanity, and that our only salvation was Halo.

The human race could NOT have won the war if Halo hadn't been found. Reach surviving a month makes it all just seem like another random war that we just happened to lose.

  • 05.29.2011 11:34 AM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
The human race could NOT have won the war if Halo hadn't been found. Reach surviving a month makes it all just seem like another random war that we just happened to lose.


If Harvest can hang on for 5 years, I think the fortress world of humanity could last longer than two hours.

  • 05.29.2011 11:38 AM PDT

Personally, Reach lasting a week+ under attack, to me, makes far more sense.

Why? This was one of two planets (other being Earth) which was READY for a Covenant attack. It was the second most defended planet the UNSC had. Having it end so quickly is rather blah.

Again, personally I don't think it was the suddenness of the fall which was important/impacted the most. It was the fall itself. Gossip/worried whispers wouldn't go "Did you hear, Reach fell within hours!" they'd go "My god, Reach is gone! I thought it was ready for any attack!"

  • 05.29.2011 11:47 AM PDT


Posted by: Cheeto666
Halo 2 still has the best story. But I still really like Reach. I liked Bungie's battle of Reach better than Nylunds.


Wow, you basically took the words right out of my mouth. I think Halo 2 is the best campaign, and I like Bungie's version of the timeline way better than what Nylund came up with. It makes infinitely more sense for the space battle to last almost two weeks given all of what the UNSC had than it does for it to fall in two hours. Now the way Bungie laid things out it makes sense to fall in that length of time on the 30th. The space battle would have been going on for about two weeks and a lot of ships would have been shot down and the UNSC would have possibly lost some SMAC stations.

If you ask me the ending of TFoR was rather hastily written and was thus not very strong, it certainly wasn't written badly, but the way Nylund chose to end it seems rather half-assed to me.

  • 05.29.2011 2:31 PM PDT

I'd say it's a good closing to the battle, but with new knowledge/experience looking back at it, it does seem like a poor complete space battle...

  • 05.29.2011 3:43 PM PDT

XxXD3LuuX3 X luuC1d17YXxX

False. No charachter development what so ever, I was cheering as Noble team died.

  • 05.29.2011 3:49 PM PDT


Posted by: Makko Mace
False. No charachter development what so ever, I was cheering as Noble team died.


*Facepalm* It's a FPS, not an RPG.

Also, for that reason then we should hate... CE?

I learned next to nothing about Foehammer, Keyes, Johnson, Master Chief even during the campaign.

  • 05.29.2011 4:00 PM PDT

Oh hey there

Posted by: petarded2
It's a metaphor for the 07s' lack of identity. too old to be newfa­g, yet too new to be oldfa­g, we wander b.net in search of a home, forever trying to be something we are not.

Posted by: Cheeto666] I liked Bungie's battle of Reach better than Nylunds.
Bungie approved Nylunds battle of Reach...

  • 05.29.2011 4:08 PM PDT


Posted by: Spartan1065
Posted by: Cheeto666] I liked Bungie's battle of Reach better than Nylunds.
Bungie approved Nylunds battle of Reach...


They mean "I like how Bungie portrayed the battle better then Nylund's."

In no way (I think) are they saying it's not canon or outright sucked.

  • 05.29.2011 4:16 PM PDT

Adepto In Meus Campester
Posted by: ParagonRenegade
You were totally and absolutely correct in every way, I don't know why we were arguing, you're so amazing I should never have doubted you.

Absolutely false.

  • 05.29.2011 4:29 PM PDT

TFOR covers a 40 year period, Halo: Reach covers a 2 month period.


This comparison is flipping stupid.

And reaches story was convoluted and dumb, however TFORs version of reaches fall would have benefitted from some things in the game (2 week battle vs a 1 day battle mostly, the UNSC's most important planet of all time falling in a day is a little quick, plus a 2 week battle would have given time for blue team to fight on the ground as well, etc etc).

[Edited on 05.29.2011 4:51 PM PDT]

  • 05.29.2011 4:49 PM PDT

Adepto In Meus Campester
Posted by: ParagonRenegade
You were totally and absolutely correct in every way, I don't know why we were arguing, you're so amazing I should never have doubted you.

Posted by: Wazooty
TFOR covers a 40 year period, Halo: Reach covers a 2 month period.


This comparison is flipping stupid.

And reaches story was convoluted and dumb, however TFORs version of reaches fall would have benefitted from some things in the game (2 week battle vs a 1 day battle mostly, the UNSC's most important planet of all time falling in a day is a little quick, plus a 2 week battle would have given time for blue team to fight on the ground as well, etc etc).

Reach was supposed to fall in one day. It was symbolic--it showed just how dangerous the UNSC's plight truly is.

  • 05.29.2011 4:52 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
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Imagine a triangle. It's perfect, but a little plain. You take a chisel, and carve a small decorative symbol into it to make it a little more interesting. People like it, but it could use a little more.

So you then take a sledgehammer..


Posted by: Astrogenesis 1

Posted by: A Random Turtle

Posted by: boogerman77
false.

Reach contradics more than just the first book.

Yep. Also, because the story itself was terrible.

  • 05.29.2011 5:16 PM PDT


Posted by: Lord Slade
Posted by: Wazooty
TFOR covers a 40 year period, Halo: Reach covers a 2 month period.


This comparison is flipping stupid.

And reaches story was convoluted and dumb, however TFORs version of reaches fall would have benefitted from some things in the game (2 week battle vs a 1 day battle mostly, the UNSC's most important planet of all time falling in a day is a little quick, plus a 2 week battle would have given time for blue team to fight on the ground as well, etc etc).

Reach was supposed to fall in one day. It was symbolic--it showed just how dangerous the UNSC's plight truly is.


No, Reach was supposed to fall period. The time of the fall didn't show anything beyond tactical stupidity (Looking back at it with the few hour timeline.)

Seriously, the most defended locations of the planet, falling in an hour or two, (maybe even less?) when it's been shown by example, that groundside the UNSC have the advantage and often win. Basically you are saying somehow, the UNSC in well fortified and defended positions, got wiped out super-quick by forces deployed from a group of dropships, which got HEAVY losses due to orbital defenses firing on them.

I mean, I forget if it was stated here, or in the book, but there was a line which basically went "As long as the generators are on and the Super-MACs firing, the line will hold."

You are basically telling me UNSC, with their added advantages (Home ground, fortified, already in positions, UNSC typical ground success against Covenant.) couldn't defend the most important buildings for more then an hour? To me it screams somebody in HIGH-COM went "Herp, let's have all our soldiers defending my country house instead of the generators."

[Edited on 05.29.2011 5:23 PM PDT]

  • 05.29.2011 5:22 PM PDT

Adepto In Meus Campester
Posted by: ParagonRenegade
You were totally and absolutely correct in every way, I don't know why we were arguing, you're so amazing I should never have doubted you.

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
You are basically telling me UNSC, with their added advantages (Home ground, fortified, already in positions, UNSC typical ground success against Covenant.) couldn't defend the most important buildings for more then an hour? To me it screams somebody in HIGH-COM went "Herp, let's have all our soldiers defending my country house instead of the generators."

Yes, that is exactly what I'm telling you. The Covenant armada that destroyed Reach was supposed to be shown as unstoppable; that's why it was a surprise when the Covenant lost the initial battle at Earth. However, when Truth returned with an actual fleet, they swept aside Earth's defenses (which rivaled those of Reach) with barely a fight, just like they did to Reach.

Hell, just read the back of TFoR: "While the brutal Covenant juggernaut sweeps inexorably through space, intent on wiping out humankind...". Juggernaut. Inexorably.

The Covenant aren't an easy foe to fight, and Reach never had a chance. Once the ODP generators went down the planet was doomed. With the considerable ground forces the Covenant deployed at Reach, the generators had virtually no chance. Reach falling in one day is more than plausible, it's truly the only scenario that actually fits.

  • 05.29.2011 5:38 PM PDT

To deploy such great forces however, means the space line had to be beaten. However, to beat the space line the generators had to be destroyed. Therefore the only scenario which fits in the generators were poorly defended.

My brother made the perfect comparison. D-day. Was D-day known because of the length of the battle? No. It's known because the attackers won, and that's it.

  • 05.29.2011 5:49 PM PDT

Adepto In Meus Campester
Posted by: ParagonRenegade
You were totally and absolutely correct in every way, I don't know why we were arguing, you're so amazing I should never have doubted you.

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
To deploy such great forces however, means the space line had to be beaten. However, to beat the space line the generators had to be destroyed. Therefore the only scenario which fits in the generators were poorly defended.

My brother made the perfect comparison. D-day. Was D-day known because of the length of the battle? No. It's known because the attackers won, and that's it.

D-day was one day. There's no reason for Reach to be more than one day. The fact here is the troops were deployed, and whenever one generator went down it left a hole in the defenses.

  • 05.29.2011 5:54 PM PDT


Posted by: Lord Slade
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
To deploy such great forces however, means the space line had to be beaten. However, to beat the space line the generators had to be destroyed. Therefore the only scenario which fits in the generators were poorly defended.

My brother made the perfect comparison. D-day. Was D-day known because of the length of the battle? No. It's known because the attackers won, and that's it.

D-day was one day. There's no reason for Reach to be more than one day. The fact here is the troops were deployed, and whenever one generator went down it left a hole in the defenses.


No reason?

Okay then. A: It was one of two planets ready for a Covenant attack.
B: Orbital defense grid held the line.
C: Generators should be well defended, as UNSC does better on the ground, that's another reason.
D: To deploy such great forces, a ship would have had to breach the defenses. NO ship did. Only dropships did (in the book, even then a large chunk of them were destroyed by orbital defenses firing on the swarm of phantoms/spirits flying to the poles).
E: It would take those surviving dropships time to regroup, and actually reach the orbital generators from the poles.
F: While regrouping, UNSC air force and support would attack them, as well as defenses around the generators/on the way to the generators.
G: They would have no truly heavy armor such as scarabs, wraiths wouldn't cut it for heavy armor support against fortified defenses. (This is due to the fact they were dropships, and thus no scarabs could be carried by them.)

  • 05.29.2011 6:02 PM PDT

Adepto In Meus Campester
Posted by: ParagonRenegade
You were totally and absolutely correct in every way, I don't know why we were arguing, you're so amazing I should never have doubted you.

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
No reason?

-pointless crap omitted-

Go back and re-read Chapter 19 of The Fall of Reach.

  • 05.29.2011 6:16 PM PDT


Posted by: Lord Slade
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
No reason?

-pointless crap omitted-

Go back and re-read Chapter 19 of The Fall of Reach.


Figured you would reply with nonsense then actually debating my points. I can only guess that means I'm right, as you are avoiding them completely.

So, you still believe that the dropships, which were flying to the poles, and fully detected, could somehow reach the orbital generators without being attacked at all? or that the defenders wouldn't be ready? All within an hour? Planets are rather big, hell it took a good portion of a day for a pelican to go from sword base to the shipbreaking yards at Azsod.

[Edited on 05.29.2011 6:26 PM PDT]

  • 05.29.2011 6:26 PM PDT

Adepto In Meus Campester
Posted by: ParagonRenegade
You were totally and absolutely correct in every way, I don't know why we were arguing, you're so amazing I should never have doubted you.

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Figured you would reply with nonsense then actually debating my points. I can only guess that means I'm right, as you are avoiding them completely.

Your points were irrelevant and therefore did not need to be refuted.

So, you still believe that the dropships, which were flying to the poles, and fully detected, could somehow reach the orbital generators without being attacked at all? or that the defenders wouldn't be ready? All within an hour? Planets are rather big, hell it took a good portion of a day for a pelican to go from sword base to the shipbreaking yards at Azsod.
You're forgetting the sheer numbers the Covenant had. It's precisely because of the size of the planet that the UNSC couldn't mount an effective anti-air resistance, which allowed the Covenant to deploy mass ground troops and take the planet.

Also, Pelicans =/= Spirits/Banshees/Phantoms/Corvettes/Carriers.

[Edited on 05.29.2011 6:51 PM PDT]

  • 05.29.2011 6:50 PM PDT

Posted by: Lord Slade
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Figured you would reply with nonsense then actually debating my points. I can only guess that means I'm right, as you are avoiding them completely.

Your points were irrelevant and therefore did not need to be refuted.

So, you still believe that the dropships, which were flying to the poles, and fully detected, could somehow reach the orbital generators without being attacked at all? or that the defenders wouldn't be ready? All within an hour? Planets are rather big, hell it took a good portion of a day for a pelican to go from sword base to the shipbreaking yards at Azsod.
You're forgetting the sheer numbers the Covenant had. It's precisely because of the size of the planet that the UNSC couldn't mount an effective anti-air resistance, which allowed the Covenant to deploy mass ground troops and take the planet.

Also, Pelicans =/= Spirits/Banshees/Phantoms/Corvettes/Carriers.

You are such a BSer

  • 05.29.2011 6:55 PM PDT


Posted by: Lord Slade
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Figured you would reply with nonsense then actually debating my points. I can only guess that means I'm right, as you are avoiding them completely.

Your points were irrelevant and therefore did not need to be refuted.


Irrelevant? Howso? You said there was no reason for the planet to last longer then a day. I gave several. Your "Pointless crap" comment was irrelevant.

So, you still believe that the dropships, which were flying to the poles, and fully detected, could somehow reach the orbital generators without being attacked at all? or that the defenders wouldn't be ready? All within an hour? Planets are rather big, hell it took a good portion of a day for a pelican to go from sword base to the shipbreaking yards at Azsod.
You're forgetting the sheer numbers the Covenant had. It's precisely because of the size of the planet that the UNSC couldn't mount an effective anti-air resistance, which allowed the Covenant to deploy mass ground troops and take the planet.

Also, Pelicans =/= Spirits/Banshees/Phantoms/Corvettes/Carriers.


Sheer numbers, which were cut down by orbital defenses. To deploy mass ground troops effectively they would have had to REGROUP. Which means the UNSC would be able to use it's own airforce to intercept and destroy them. You seem to think each dropship can carry hundreds of soldiers or something.

Oh, and I'm fairly sure the Covenant and UNSC dropships are comparable in terms of speed.

[Edited on 05.29.2011 7:03 PM PDT]

  • 05.29.2011 6:57 PM PDT

Adepto In Meus Campester
Posted by: ParagonRenegade
You were totally and absolutely correct in every way, I don't know why we were arguing, you're so amazing I should never have doubted you.

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Sheer numbers, which were cut down by orbital defenses. To deploy mass ground troops effectively they would have had to REGROUP. Which means the UNSC would be able to use it's own airforce to intercept and destroy them. You seem to think each dropship can carry hundreds of soldiers or something.

Oh, and I'm fairly sure the Covenant and UNSC dropships are comparable in terms of speed.

Once one ODP goes down, that hole starts to spread, and the ships get through. Also, what's with the assumptions that the UNSC's SkyHawks or other various aircraft would be capable of fighting the technologically superior Seraphs and Spirits?

Also, Spirits are capable of going approximately 680mph. That'd be about 7 hours to go from the equator to the pole, and they were deployed from carriers to begin with.

[Edited on 05.29.2011 7:06 PM PDT]

  • 05.29.2011 7:03 PM PDT


Posted by: Lord Slade
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Sheer numbers, which were cut down by orbital defenses. To deploy mass ground troops effectively they would have had to REGROUP. Which means the UNSC would be able to use it's own airforce to intercept and destroy them. You seem to think each dropship can carry hundreds of soldiers or something.

Oh, and I'm fairly sure the Covenant and UNSC dropships are comparable in terms of speed.

Once one ODP goes down, that hole starts to spread, and the ships get through. Also, what's with the assumptions that the UNSC's SkyHawks or other various aircraft would be capable of fighting the technologically superior Seraphs and Spirits?

Also, Spirits are capable of going approximately 680mph. That'd be about 7 hours to go from the equator to the pole, and they were deployed from carriers to begin with.


A: The book states DROPSHIPS got through, not Seraphs.
B: I'm fairly damn sure the UNSC aircraft can shoot down spirits and phantoms.
C: Wow, you just -blam!- destroyed your own defense. 7 hours is far longer then... what was it, 2-3?

If it took them 7ish hours, give or take as Reach is larger then Earth, that's plenty of time to reinforce the generators and take them out.

Edit: Make that 7ish hours with UNSC sensors tracking them.

Second edit: If they are so "superior" then why did... in the flood I think? Simple rockets took down a spirit? Or was it sniper rounds... I forget.

[Edited on 05.29.2011 7:28 PM PDT]

  • 05.29.2011 7:26 PM PDT