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  • Subject: If TFoR was never written..
Subject: If TFoR was never written..


Posted by: OrderedComa


Especially if it'd take a spirit 7 hours to go from the pole to the equator (I'm guessing using Earth measurements, Reach is bigger).

And again, why wouldn't the UNSC Air force intercept and shoot them down?

[Edited on 05.30.2011 5:04 PM PDT]

  • 05.30.2011 5:04 PM PDT
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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: OrderedComa


Especially if it'd take a spirit 7 hours to go from the pole to the equator (I'm guessing using Earth measurements, Reach is bigger).

And again, why wouldn't the UNSC Air force intercept and shoot them down?


You make it sound easy. "Shoot them down."

  • 05.30.2011 5:06 PM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: OrderedComa


Especially if it'd take a spirit 7 hours to go from the pole to the equator (I'm guessing using Earth measurements, Reach is bigger).

And again, why wouldn't the UNSC Air force intercept and shoot them down?


Exactly, they had ships surface side that could have easily ravaged a fleet of dropships, or anti-air guns that I'm sure they'd have to pass over if they're going straight to the generators, detouring to avoid UNSC fortress implacements would only cause them more delays, so it may have been even longer than about 7 hours.

  • 05.31.2011 8:23 AM PDT

"We knew the world would not be the same.
A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent.
I remembered the line from the Hindu scripture, the Bhagavad-Gita.
Vishnu is trying to persuade the Prince that he should do his duty and to impress him takes on his multi-armed form and says,
'Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds...'
I suppose we all thought that one way or another."
- J. Robert Oppenheimer

If TFoR was never written, H:R would not exist.

  • 05.31.2011 8:55 AM PDT

For Carnage Apply Within - Fatum Iustum Stultorum

"Do not mistake your rank and number for superiority. The oldest child may learn from the youngest."


Posted by: Snake Archer
ODST had the best campaign of all the Halo games.


Please pass whatever hallucinogen you are taking around the room. Seems like it's very effective stuff...

The original Halo had the best story of the series, with the quality of subsequent installment's stories declining rather quickly until we were left with a mood-music laden love story a and the tale of six of the worst soldiers of all time.

[Edited on 05.31.2011 8:58 AM PDT]

  • 05.31.2011 8:55 AM PDT


Posted by: MGTrey

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: OrderedComa


Especially if it'd take a spirit 7 hours to go from the pole to the equator (I'm guessing using Earth measurements, Reach is bigger).

And again, why wouldn't the UNSC Air force intercept and shoot them down?


You make it sound easy. "Shoot them down."


Dropships vs dedicated combat aircraft? Dang right it'd be easy to shoot them down.

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: OrderedComa


Especially if it'd take a spirit 7 hours to go from the pole to the equator (I'm guessing using Earth measurements, Reach is bigger).

And again, why wouldn't the UNSC Air force intercept and shoot them down?


Exactly, they had ships surface side that could have easily ravaged a fleet of dropships, or anti-air guns that I'm sure they'd have to pass over if they're going straight to the generators, detouring to avoid UNSC fortress implacements would only cause them more delays, so it may have been even longer than about 7 hours.


And, being their first time on the planet, they wouldn't exactly know where the generator complexes were now would they?

That's extra time searching.

[Edited on 05.31.2011 10:56 AM PDT]

  • 05.31.2011 10:55 AM PDT
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Well, It's a good story. Is Their Story. They created the Halo Universe and can change the story by the way they want. The books are only "merchandising" that are not needed to follow.
Yes, We all hoped more epically and bigger battles and personally I imagined the six spartans killing a lot of -blam!- alients in an easy-looking way and being defeated on a more epic way, simply because the chief, alone, made a better work than all of them in the same Team.... And also the ODST team.
But, -blam!-, I loved it, and also all the entire Saga.
The most, the first.

  • 05.31.2011 11:39 AM PDT

Adepto In Meus Campester
Posted by: ParagonRenegade
You were totally and absolutely correct in every way, I don't know why we were arguing, you're so amazing I should never have doubted you.

DurrFaeron, you realize that aside from the Pillar of Autumn's location the events of August 30th are the same in The Fall of Reach and Halo: Reach, right? All Reach did was add in a few weeks of skirmishes that make no sense before the actual battle. In Halo Reach the Covenant were landing troops days before the ODP generators fell, yet you're criticizing the book.

  • 05.31.2011 12:58 PM PDT


Posted by: Lord Slade
DaeFaeron, you realize that aside from the Pillar of Autumn's location the events of August 30th are the same in The Fall of Reach and Halo: Reach, right? All Reach did was add in a few weeks of skirmishes that make no sense before the actual battle. In Halo Reach the Covenant were landing troops days before the ODP generators fell, yet you're criticizing the book.


No, right now I'm discussing PURELY the book viewpoint of the battle, as you blindly hate Reach.

You see, in Halo Reach the battle had been going on for a week or two. Thus holes in the defenses could happen, as well as Covenant ground forces deployed prior to the battle. On the 30th simply the generators are finally overrun and destroyed, as was the rest of the defenses.

Seems you'd rather have the UNSC as complete dumbasses then a fortress world lasting a while before destruction.

  • 05.31.2011 1:06 PM PDT
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The Covenant were too numerous. And too advanced. Refit stations had to take shots for the ODPs, or they never would have gotten a shot off in the first place. Furthermore, the Covenant used the main bulk of their fleet as a diversion so dropships could infiltrate Reach at the poles. Keyes said hundreds must have gotten through, which is a massive number of troops--easily in the thousands.

The ODPs, while powerful, had terrible defenses, and if there were no ships to take shots for them, they would be destroyed by simple plasma torpedoes. It came down to numbers, ultimately. They were destroying a Covenant ship in one hit, sure, but there were way too many targets, and the Reach fleet was dwindling at a faster rate. Carriers were carving human ships up just by simply outranging them.

Here are two problems I have with ODPs:

1) How can all twenty fire at the same vector? If they're geosynchronous, wouldn't some of them be on the other side of the planet? I'm sure they're not firing through Reach.

2) How in god's name are the ODPs powered remotely? Energy of the magnitude required to power the Super MACs would be massive, and remotely infusing something with energy would be far and away the most technologically advanced technique in the UNSC arsenal.

[Edited on 05.31.2011 1:08 PM PDT]

  • 05.31.2011 1:06 PM PDT

MGTrey, the book mentions after the refit stations were destroyed, the dust cloud from the melted hull provided a screen against all plasma torpedos.

As for the dropships, that is what we are debating. Can you not agree hundreds of dropships, with no noted escorts, would be easy pickings for the UNSC air force?

especially since Phantoms and Spirits have no defense from above.

  • 05.31.2011 1:13 PM PDT

Adepto In Meus Campester
Posted by: ParagonRenegade
You were totally and absolutely correct in every way, I don't know why we were arguing, you're so amazing I should never have doubted you.

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Posted by: Lord Slade
DaeFaeron, you realize that aside from the Pillar of Autumn's location the events of August 30th are the same in The Fall of Reach and Halo: Reach, right? All Reach did was add in a few weeks of skirmishes that make no sense before the actual battle. In Halo Reach the Covenant were landing troops days before the ODP generators fell, yet you're criticizing the book.


No, right now I'm discussing PURELY the book viewpoint of the battle, as you blindly hate Reach.

You see, in Halo Reach the battle had been going on for a week or two. Thus holes in the defenses could happen, as well as Covenant ground forces deployed prior to the battle. On the 30th simply the generators are finally overrun and destroyed, as was the rest of the defenses.

Seems you'd rather have the UNSC as complete dumbasses then a fortress world lasting a while before destruction.

My dislike of Reach is wholly justified. It's not that the UNSC are complete dumbasses (although they give that impression on more than one occasion), it's simply that the Covenant are an unstoppable alien juggernaut.

And the battle going on for weeks? Bull. How would they land troops with the ODPs still up and functioning for weeks and with the majority of the UNSC fleet completely intact? Being overwhelmed by one massive force is the most plausible story.

[Edited on 05.31.2011 1:18 PM PDT]

  • 05.31.2011 1:16 PM PDT


Posted by: Lord Slade
DurrFaeron, you realize that aside from the Pillar of Autumn's location the events of August 30th are the same in The Fall of Reach and Halo: Reach, right? All Reach did was add in a few weeks of skirmishes that make no sense before the actual battle. In Halo Reach the Covenant were landing troops days before the ODP generators fell, yet you're criticizing the book.


Both DaeFaron and are talking strictly about the way events fell to be in the book. The added timeline of the game makes the events of the book make much more sense. Taken by itself the account of the Battle of Reach within only makes the UNSC look like incompetent fools or the weakest galactic power to ever be.

  • 05.31.2011 1:21 PM PDT

"The measure of a man is what he does with power"-Plato

Posted by: JaxBug
If TFoR was never written, H:R would not exist.


Read the CE manual.

  • 05.31.2011 1:21 PM PDT
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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
MGTrey, the book mentions after the refit stations were destroyed, the dust cloud from the melted hull provided a screen against all plasma torpedos.

As for the dropships, that is what we are debating. Can you not agree hundreds of dropships, with no noted escorts, would be easy pickings for the UNSC air force?

especially since Phantoms and Spirits have no defense from above.


Plasma torpedoes were still taking ODPs out with potshots.

Covenant drop ships are much more formidable than Hornets and Falcons. What has been shown in the UNSC arsenal that could contend with them in atmosphere?

Also, Banshees were on Reach. Those are credible escorts.

[Edited on 05.31.2011 1:24 PM PDT]

  • 05.31.2011 1:22 PM PDT

I think, from that perspective, Halo 2 is still the strongest. Halo: Reach, if you look at the narrative, it's quite different from the other Halo titles; focusing on the characters a lot more - the presentation and design of the narrative is also very different.

[Edited on 05.31.2011 1:30 PM PDT]

  • 05.31.2011 1:30 PM PDT
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Nate Cleaves


Posted by: A Random Turtle

Posted by: boogerman77
false.

It also conflicts with the ghost of oynx.

  • 05.31.2011 1:30 PM PDT


Posted by: MGTrey

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
MGTrey, the book mentions after the refit stations were destroyed, the dust cloud from the melted hull provided a screen against all plasma torpedos.

As for the dropships, that is what we are debating. Can you not agree hundreds of dropships, with no noted escorts, would be easy pickings for the UNSC air force?

especially since Phantoms and Spirits have no defense from above.


Plasma torpedoes were still taking ODPs out with potshots.

Covenant drop ships are much more formidable than Hornets and Falcons. What has been shown in the UNSC arsenal that could contend with them in atmosphere?

Also, Banshees were on Reach. Those are credible escorts.


I'm not talking falcons or hornets. I'm talking longswords, shortswords, UNSC Skyhawks, sparrowhawks, Wombats (the drones in ODST).

Maybe, but could they(banshees) have been deployed from space, entered atmosphere and kept running?

50mm cannons tore through spirits, Skyhawk's are equipped with four of them...

[Edited on 05.31.2011 1:32 PM PDT]

  • 05.31.2011 1:30 PM PDT
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Nate Cleaves


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: MGTrey

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: OrderedComa


Especially if it'd take a spirit 7 hours to go from the pole to the equator (I'm guessing using Earth measurements, Reach is bigger).

And again, why wouldn't the UNSC Air force intercept and shoot them down?


You make it sound easy. "Shoot them down."


Dropships vs dedicated combat aircraft? Dang right it'd be easy to shoot them down.

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: OrderedComa


Especially if it'd take a spirit 7 hours to go from the pole to the equator (I'm guessing using Earth measurements, Reach is bigger).

And again, why wouldn't the UNSC Air force intercept and shoot them down?


Exactly, they had ships surface side that could have easily ravaged a fleet of dropships, or anti-air guns that I'm sure they'd have to pass over if they're going straight to the generators, detouring to avoid UNSC fortress implacements would only cause them more delays, so it may have been even longer than about 7 hours.


And, being their first time on the planet, they wouldn't exactly know where the generator complexes were now would they?

That's extra time searching.

If you were the covenent, would you send down thousands of dropships unescorted? They sent down THOUSANDS of fighters and banshees with them. How could isolated bases defeat a consentrated force of great firepower?

  • 05.31.2011 1:33 PM PDT
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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

I'm not talking falcons or hornets. I'm talking longswords, shortswords, UNSC Skyhawks, sparrowhawks, Wombats (the drones in ODST).

Maybe, but could they(banshees) have been deployed from space, entered atmosphere and kept running?

50mm cannons tore through spirits, Skyhawk's are equipped with four of them...


And Covie air units are better than them all. You expect technologically inferior air units to repel a massive alien force based on what? Because Reach is a "fortress"? That term is relative.

[Edited on 05.31.2011 1:41 PM PDT]

  • 05.31.2011 1:39 PM PDT


Posted by: Super EC Nate
If you were the covenent, would you send down thousands of dropships unescorted? They sent down THOUSANDS of fighters and banshees with them. How could isolated bases defeat a concentrated force of great firepower?


Proof of the banshees and seraph escort? Again, it'd take them TIME, of several hours at least, to reach Fleet command or other targets. By then even a trio of frigates could be sent to clear them out.

Keyes (If memory is right being the person talking about it) mentions ONLY dropships on sensors, even then only hundreds. UNSC Air Assets for Reach numbered 11,050.

I'm sorry, but for them to effortlessly land, deploy massive ground forces in that number, AND take out command and the generators within 2-3 hours is, frankly, retarded.

  • 05.31.2011 1:41 PM PDT


Posted by: MGTrey

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

I'm not talking falcons or hornets. I'm talking longswords, shortswords, UNSC Skyhawks, sparrowhawks, Wombats (the drones in ODST).

Maybe, but could they(banshees) have been deployed from space, entered atmosphere and kept running?

50mm cannons tore through spirits, Skyhawk's are equipped with four of them...


And Covie air units are better than them all. You expect technologically inferior air units to repel a massive alien force based on what? Because Reach is a "fortress"? That term is relative.


*Sigh* So magically phantoms and gunboats can outfly, outfire, and overwhelm dedicated aircraft? When they have no guns facing upward?

The UNSC pilots would have to be RETARDED to get shot down by those. Um, yeah. "Technologically inferior"? Sounds like a cop-out to avoid the fact the UNSC air force could have wiped the floor with the dropships.

I pointed out that a 50mm cannon shot down a spirit in the Flood. Skyhawks have four of them. You are telling me now they can't shoot down phantoms or spirits?

  • 05.31.2011 1:44 PM PDT
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Nate Cleaves

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: Super EC Nate
If you were the covenent, would you send down thousands of dropships unescorted? They sent down THOUSANDS of fighters and banshees with them. How could isolated bases defeat a concentrated force of great firepower?


Proof of the banshees and seraph escort? Again, it'd take them TIME, of several hours at least, to reach Fleet command or other targets. By then even a trio of frigates could be sent to clear them out.

Keyes (If memory is right being the person talking about it) mentions ONLY dropships on sensors, even then only hundreds. UNSC Air Assets for Reach numbered 11,050.

I'm sorry, but for them to effortlessly land, deploy massive ground forces in that number, AND take out command and the generators within 2-3 hours is, frankly, retarded.


Logic dictates that the covenent would deploy escorts, that or they are the stupidest military that has ever existed. If they did, then the massive amount of escorts could very easily overwelm any group of ships. Plus the orbital cannons had to refocus on the returning covenent fleet. they also had to have a finite amount of shots, not enough to waste on dropships. also consentrated forces can defeat much larger numbers if they are spread out.

  • 05.31.2011 1:47 PM PDT
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Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: MGTrey

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

I'm not talking falcons or hornets. I'm talking longswords, shortswords, UNSC Skyhawks, sparrowhawks, Wombats (the drones in ODST).

Maybe, but could they(banshees) have been deployed from space, entered atmosphere and kept running?

50mm cannons tore through spirits, Skyhawk's are equipped with four of them...


And Covie air units are better than them all. You expect technologically inferior air units to repel a massive alien force based on what? Because Reach is a "fortress"? That term is relative.


*Sigh* So magically phantoms and gunboats can outfly, outfire, and overwhelm dedicated aircraft? When they have no guns facing upward?

The UNSC pilots would have to be RETARDED to get shot down by those. Um, yeah. "Technologically inferior"? Sounds like a cop-out to avoid the fact the UNSC air force could have wiped the floor with the dropships.

I pointed out that a 50mm cannon shot down a spirit in the Flood. Skyhawks have four of them. You are telling me now they can't shoot down phantoms or spirits?


Seraphs, Phantoms, Spirits, Banshees, of which two of them have energy shields and superior armor. It's been widely reiterated that Covenant units--especially the Covenant ships--are technologically superior. Between their plasma armament, shielding, and ability to move in any direction, the only way a contending UNSC pilot is retarded is if they don't immediately retreat upon sight.

[Edited on 05.31.2011 1:55 PM PDT]

  • 05.31.2011 1:54 PM PDT
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Imagine a triangle. It's perfect, but a little plain. You take a chisel, and carve a small decorative symbol into it to make it a little more interesting. People like it, but it could use a little more.

So you then take a sledgehammer..


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: A Random Turtle

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: Lord Slade
Posted by: Wazooty
TFOR covers a 40 year period, Halo: Reach covers a 2 month period.


This comparison is flipping stupid.

And reaches story was convoluted and dumb, however TFORs version of reaches fall would have benefitted from some things in the game (2 week battle vs a 1 day battle mostly, the UNSC's most important planet of all time falling in a day is a little quick, plus a 2 week battle would have given time for blue team to fight on the ground as well, etc etc).

Reach was supposed to fall in one day. It was symbolic--it showed just how dangerous the UNSC's plight truly is.


No, the important thing was that Reach fell, not how long it took to fall. DaeFaron's right, looking back at it, even before Reach came out, it doesn't make the Covenant seem unbeatable, it makes the UNSC look like the biggest fools in the world. Reach falling in a couple hours just looks silly going back and thinking about it. The odds between the Covenant and the UNSC were almost exactly the same as always, and even if they sent thousands of dropships down to Reach besieging the generators would take weeks especially since it would take time to even coordinate a proper attack on the generators as well.

Again, you don't need shutdown a generator in order to neutralize a SMAC.


To even have a chance of taking a SMAC out they have to get close enough, and then they would be in the effective range of the SMAC station, the most efficient way to take the ODPs out without significant ship losses was taking down the generators. And as I said before it would take quite a while for the Covenant to even have a chance at destroying the generators.

In "The Return" the shipmaster claims that his command destroyed 3 of the ODPs, which shows SMACs can indeed be destroyed from space, though certainly not without HUGE losses. And remember in Halo 2, Regret's carrier slipped past the orbital grid, and the Covenant only needed to take 2 of the 300 SMACs out. That's less than 1%. Imagine how many ships could slip past the ODPs if 15% of them were destroyed.

  • 05.31.2011 7:02 PM PDT