Bungie Universe
This topic has moved here: Subject: Catherine Halsey, the REAL hero of Halo.
  • Subject: Catherine Halsey, the REAL hero of Halo.
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2
  • of 2
Subject: Catherine Halsey, the REAL hero of Halo.

"The measure of a man is what he does with power"-Plato

Anyone else agree with this?

She was responsible for the two most important things of the war. Spartans and Cortana, if it wasn't for Halsey humanity would have lost and would have been wiped out.

And she gets no recognition for this. She was locked up in Castle and Sword base and was forgotten about.

When Oni thought she died they gave her a crappy plaque in Oni HQ.



[Edited on 05.31.2011 12:42 PM PDT]

  • 05.31.2011 12:42 PM PDT

I am an Xbox Live Ambassador so feel free to hit me up with any questions via PM :)

Follow me Twitter: @TheBestTheyHad

I am going to go with like... 80% agree.

  • 05.31.2011 12:47 PM PDT

Welcome to bungie, you have no rights. play nice!
CLICK!

Go Elizabeth Go!

  • 05.31.2011 1:00 PM PDT

"Were it so easy..." -Thel Vadame.

Your right.

  • 05.31.2011 1:14 PM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.

Yeah but she also committed one of the greatest atrocities ever. She gave birth to Miranda.

  • 05.31.2011 1:15 PM PDT

"The measure of a man is what he does with power"-Plato

Posted by: ajw34307
Yeah but she also committed one of the greatest atrocities ever. She gave birth to Miranda.


LOL

But I wonder how Catherine would react to Miranda's death.

  • 05.31.2011 1:16 PM PDT
  • gamertag: MGTrey
  • user homepage:

The Seventh Column demands it.

Tumblr|Twitter


Posted by: II Cipher
Anyone else agree with this?

She was responsible for the two most important things of the war. Spartans and Cortana, if it wasn't for Halsey humanity would have lost and would have been wiped out.

And she gets no recognition for this. She was locked up in Castle and Sword base and was forgotten about.

When Oni thought she died they gave her a crappy plaque in Oni HQ.



I hate stuff like this. Going by the "if...then" logic, if John's parents never made sexy time some forty years before the Battle of Earth, there would be no Master Chief, and Earth is lost anyways. So Mister and Missus John's parents' broken condom is the real hero!

Just because Halsey started the Spartan project and had Cortana made from her own mind does not give her credit for all their achievements.

[Edited on 05.31.2011 1:33 PM PDT]

  • 05.31.2011 1:32 PM PDT

She also discovered hope amidst the ruins of reach.

If not for her deciding to follow up on sorvalds discovery, halo would have never been found, humanity would have lost.

Obviously Sorvald is the real hero of halo!

  • 05.31.2011 1:38 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Nate Cleaves


Posted by: ajw34307
Yeah but she also committed one of the greatest atrocities ever. She gave birth to Miranda.

Who are you? Meranda KEYS, she is captain Key's daughter. Halsey's greatest atrocity was kidnapping and conscripting the spartans.

  • 05.31.2011 1:41 PM PDT
  • gamertag: MGTrey
  • user homepage:

The Seventh Column demands it.

Tumblr|Twitter


Posted by: Wazooty
She also discovered hope amidst the ruins of reach.

If not for her deciding to follow up on sorvalds discovery, halo would have never been found, humanity would have lost.

Obviously Sorvald is the real hero of halo!


If the Pillar of Autumn was never built, Keyes, Cortana, and the Chief would never have survived the Battle of Reach, so Robert McLees is the real hero!

  • 05.31.2011 1:47 PM PDT

I like Call of Duty and Gears of War, AND Halo. Why must everyone else like only one or the other?


Posted by: MGTrey
Just because Halsey started the Spartan project and had Cortana made from her own mind does not give her credit for all their achievements.


Indeed. She is an evil woman. It just so happened to be that her evil project (kidnapping kids and turning them into tools for the government) ended up being used for good. That doesn't excuse her crimes.

  • 05.31.2011 2:05 PM PDT

Halsey was not the real hero of the Halo universe. We all know it is Didact.

  • 05.31.2011 9:11 PM PDT

Posted by: MGTrey

Posted by: II Cipher
Anyone else agree with this?

She was responsible for the two most important things of the war. Spartans and Cortana, if it wasn't for Halsey humanity would have lost and would have been wiped out.

And she gets no recognition for this. She was locked up in Castle and Sword base and was forgotten about.

When Oni thought she died they gave her a crappy plaque in Oni HQ.



I hate stuff like this. Going by the "if...then" logic, if John's parents never made sexy time some forty years before the Battle of Earth, there would be no Master Chief, and Earth is lost anyways. So Mister and Missus John's parents' broken condom is the real hero!

Just because Halsey started the Spartan project and had Cortana made from her own mind does not give her credit for all their achievements.


Slight difference. Giving birth to somebody who happens to have a great ability and your two life projects working together to save humanity.
Obviously Master Chief and Cortana are the real heroes, but they needed Halsey, their Phil Jackson, to realize their potential.

  • 05.31.2011 10:18 PM PDT

Oh hey there

Posted by: petarded2
It's a metaphor for the 07s' lack of identity. too old to be newfa­g, yet too new to be oldfa­g, we wander b.net in search of a home, forever trying to be something we are not.

Posted by: Super EC Nate

Posted by: ajw34307
Yeah but she also committed one of the greatest atrocities ever. She gave birth to Miranda.

Who are you? Meranda KEYS, she is captain Key's daughter. Halsey's greatest atrocity was kidnapping and conscripting the spartans.

Halsey and Keyes had a daughter, I'll give you three guesses who she is.

Also my head may or may not have exploded when I saw how you spelled Keyes.

[Edited on 05.31.2011 10:39 PM PDT]

  • 05.31.2011 10:38 PM PDT
  • gamertag: S034
  • user homepage:

Gettin' all Herodotean up in here!


Posted by: The Elite Elite

Indeed. She is an evil woman.
I disagree. For one thing, the term "Evil" is subjective. Nothing about the SPARTAN program seems evil to me. Were there other possible directions that could have been taken that would have been more savory than conscripting six-year-olds? Yes. But the ancient Spartans did the same thing. Literally. Only with their ENTIRE POPULATION. And they threw in pederasty to boot. However, without the Spartans, it's unlikely that modern western civilization would exist; if nothing else, Persian linguistics would play a much larger role in the English language. I'm willing to forgive all the "bad" things that the Spartans did simply because it caused history to end up here, and Halsey's flaws pale by comparison.It just so happened to be that her evil project (kidnapping kids and turning them into tools for the government) Again, contingent upon point of view. It was a project with many unsettling aspects, but it was undertaken during a time when the UNSC looked upon the Insurrectionist problem as potentially catastrophic. Are you suggest that when pressed, you wouldn't perform an unsavory action or two to save yourself, your family, those things you consider sacred? The Insurrectionists in this storyline weren't playing nice. They didn't seem to have any real problems with things that we would consider "evil," so why should the UNSC? The SPARTAN-IIs were created, essentially, as scalpels to excise the Insurrectionist tumors with as little collateral damage as possible. The project, in essence, destroyed the lives of some 150 families in an effort to avert a civil war that would span most of UNSC-controlled space and would consume millions, billions, or even trillions of lives. Given that, I would argue that to not have undertaken the SPARTAN project would have been much more heinous and evil. ended up being used for good. That doesn't excuse her crimes. Allow me to wax Nuremberg for a moment; if she's a criminal, who else is criminal in this scenario? The military teams who kidnapped the SPARTANs form their beds? The techs who helped grow the flash-clones to replace them? Every member of ONI high command who knew about the project? The soldiers and trainers who kicked these kids' asses day after day? If you really think about it, they are ALL much more villainous than Halsey. ONI command because they green-lighted the project. The military teams because they did the kidnapping. The trainers for subjecting these kids to what amounts to a full special forces training program and a military college academic program at the age of six. EVERYONE had a degree of culpability, and most of them had a higher degree of it than her. Her work was primarily theoretical. If the entire project is evil, then everyone involved is just as evil as our friend the Doctor, if not more so because of their direct involvement. Where do you draw the line?
In addition to all of this, I raise, for a moment, a question regarding the nature of "evil." What makes something evil? Is it if an innocent is harmed? Would not more innocents have been harmed if the SPARTAN project had not been undertaken? Is evil when one harms others for selfish reasons? Halsey doesn't enter into the project with thoughts of herself and glory; we're given a pretty clear portrait of her psychology in FoR and she seems to be genuinely concerned with saving the galaxy, as well as being sympathetic to the burden which she is placing on these children. Is evil about doing harmful things to others when nothing is gained by anyone in return? The project is obviously beneficial to, essentially, the entirety of the UNSC at its inception and the entirety of humanity and Elite-kind by the end of the saga in question, so that's out. Halsey doesn't do this out of sadism or cruelty, or even scientific curiosity. The project is a wartime one, and it is undertaken, at least as those coordinating it see it, out of necessity to keep the galaxy from exploding into a brutal interplanetary civil war.
Whether or not the project is seen as evil is, ultimately, subjective. But I would suggest that it is not. To call it heroism might be incorrect; I consider heroism to be standing up in a situation where nobody would fault you for kneeling down. A hero takes the high ground in a situation where nobody else would have the stones to do it. But I think Halsey behaved at least in the same fashion that any one of us would have if pressed into the same situation with the same sets of resources.


[Edited on 05.31.2011 11:22 PM PDT]

  • 05.31.2011 11:18 PM PDT

Two things is what saved Humanity. Halsey and the Insurrection. The Insurrection in the outer colonies forced the UNSC to stay on its toes military wise. With this the MAC gun was made which was the best weapon humanity had to face the Covenant in space.
MAC guns were put onto ships and onto MAC platforms with MAC's so great they could blast through a Covenant cruiser and still have enough kinetic energy to go through another. The Spartans are also another product of the Insurrection. The UNSC wanted a way of stopping the rebels which was effective and cost less lives and equipment. This..was the Spartan II project. The Super Soldiers were the best thing against the Covenant, racking thousands among thousands of kills and having Master Chief trained was here and trained. Because the Spartan II's were around and so useful (but small in number) ONI started the Spartan III Project which gave Spartans such as Noble team and then we have Noble 6 who gave Cortana to Jacob Keyes who gave the Smart AI to Masterchief. Halsey made it possible yes but...

I think the Insurrectionists were the greatest thing to happen.

  • 06.01.2011 5:25 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you. The Forerunners....have returned. And this tomb... is now yours". - The Didact

Fine we can nominate the Librarian as the true hero cause she saved Humanity by preserving them in a time where the Humans were nearly wiped out.

  • 06.01.2011 5:30 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

I still think the Moa that took the sticky for Noble 6 is the real hero.

  • 06.01.2011 5:49 AM PDT

I like Call of Duty and Gears of War, AND Halo. Why must everyone else like only one or the other?


Posted by: S_034

Posted by: The Elite Elite

Indeed. She is an evil woman.
I disagree. For one thing, the term "Evil" is subjective. Nothing about the SPARTAN program seems evil to me. Were there other possible directions that could have been taken that would have been more savory than conscripting six-year-olds? Yes. But the ancient Spartans did the same thing. Literally. Only with their ENTIRE POPULATION. And they threw in pederasty to boot. However, without the Spartans, it's unlikely that modern western civilization would exist; if nothing else, Persian linguistics would play a much larger role in the English language. I'm willing to forgive all the "bad" things that the Spartans did simply because it caused history to end up here, and Halsey's flaws pale by comparison.


I'm also not a fan of the ancient Spartans either, and bringing up the fact that they did worse doesn't excuse what Halsey did.


It just so happened to be that her evil project (kidnapping kids and turning them into tools for the government) Again, contingent upon point of view. It was a project with many unsettling aspects, but it was undertaken during a time when the UNSC looked upon the Insurrectionist problem as potentially catastrophic. Are you suggest that when pressed, you wouldn't perform an unsavory action or two to save yourself, your family, those things you consider sacred?


Not at the expense of someone else that was innocent.


The Insurrectionists in this storyline weren't playing nice. They didn't seem to have any real problems with things that we would consider "evil," so why should the UNSC? The SPARTAN-IIs were created, essentially, as scalpels to excise the Insurrectionist tumors with as little collateral damage as possible. The project, in essence, destroyed the lives of some 150 families in an effort to avert a civil war that would span most of UNSC-controlled space and would consume millions, billions, or even trillions of lives. Given that, I would argue that to not have undertaken the SPARTAN project would have been much more heinous and evil.


I think this might be where the core of our disagreement comes in. Why was it that the Insurrectionists needed to be defeated? From what I remember of the books (it has been a while since I read them so forgive me if I forgot something) they just didn't want to be part of the big galactic government that was the UNSC. What was so horribly evil about that? I see no reason for the UNSC to have taken such steps to stop the Insurrection. They could have avoided a civil war by letting the Insurrectionist do what they wanted and split from the UNSC. But of course that means they'd be out of UNSC control, and apparently we can't have that. Nope, better to steal the lives of a chosen few children (and ruin the lives of their parents when the clones died prematurely) to stop something that by no means needed to be stopped.


ended up being used for good. That doesn't excuse her crimes. Allow me to wax Nuremberg for a moment; if she's a criminal, who else is criminal in this scenario? The military teams who kidnapped the SPARTANs form their beds? The techs who helped grow the flash-clones to replace them? Every member of ONI high command who knew about the project? The soldiers and trainers who kicked these kids' asses day after day? If you really think about it, they are ALL much more villainous than Halsey. ONI command because they green-lighted the project. The military teams because they did the kidnapping. The trainers for subjecting these kids to what amounts to a full special forces training program and a military college academic program at the age of six. EVERYONE had a degree of culpability, and most of them had a higher degree of it than her. Her work was primarily theoretical. If the entire project is evil, then everyone involved is just as evil as our friend the Doctor, if not more so because of their direct involvement. Where do you draw the line?


Oh yes, I do blame a lot of people other than Halsey for the project. The UNSC saw a chance to get a group of elite warriors that would obey their every command and have greater control, so they took it. The guys who actually stole the children could have stopped themselves and asked "Is this moral?" Same with the soldiers and trainers. All those involved should have asked themselves that question, but they didn't. And I wont accept any "Just following orders" crap, as anyone with any sense of morality should know there are times when you draw the line, even from orders by your superiors.


In addition to all of this, I raise, for a moment, a question regarding the nature of "evil." What makes something evil? Is it if an innocent is harmed? Would not more innocents have been harmed if the SPARTAN project had not been undertaken?


Yes, ultimately more would have been harmed by the Covenant had the Spartans not been there. However, no one knew a thing about the Covies at the time the SPARTAN program was conceived, it was all about dealing with the supposed threat the Insurrections posed to the UNSC.


Is evil when one harms others for selfish reasons? Halsey doesn't enter into the project with thoughts of herself and glory; we're given a pretty clear portrait of her psychology in FoR and she seems to be genuinely concerned with saving the galaxy, as well as being sympathetic to the burden which she is placing on these children.


Agreed, she isn't in it for any thoughts of glory.


Is evil about doing harmful things to others when nothing is gained by anyone in return? The project is obviously beneficial to, essentially, the entirety of the UNSC at its inception and the entirety of humanity and Elite-kind by the end of the saga in question, so that's out. Halsey doesn't do this out of sadism or cruelty, or even scientific curiosity. The project is a wartime one, and it is undertaken, at least as those coordinating it see it, out of necessity to keep the galaxy from exploding into a brutal interplanetary civil war.


Like I said above, I don't see know the Insurrections are any kind of threat to the UNSC. If they just left the Insurrectionists alone and let them split from the UNSC, there would have been no civil war. The project was done entirely to keep people under UNSC control, and was not for the benefit of the citizens of the UNSC. That it did end up saving people from the Covenant was not something that was foreseen by those involved in the program, and therefore does not excuse what was done. For example, just because useful data came about from -blam!- Germany's testing on Jews and mentally retarded people does not excuse the -blam!-s. Just because good can can come from evil does not excuse the original evil.


Whether or not the project is seen as evil is, ultimately, subjective. But I would suggest that it is not. To call it heroism might be incorrect; I consider heroism to be standing up in a situation where nobody would fault you for kneeling down. A hero takes the high ground in a situation where nobody else would have the stones to do it. But I think Halsey behaved at least in the same fashion that any one of us would have if pressed into the same situation with the same sets of resources.


I would hope no one would create a program like Halsey's SPARTAN project, but looking at the evils committed throughout history, I would find it very believable that a government would commit such acts for the sake of keeping itself in power. (and of course if exposed I'd believe they'd make up whatever lie they need to tell the public to convince them it's for their own good)

[Edited on 06.01.2011 6:03 AM PDT]

  • 06.01.2011 6:01 AM PDT

Um, Halsey predicted that the rebels would take control of the entire outer colonies, and gain the ability to turn FTL capable ships into weapons of mass destruction able to take out entire colonies.

The rebels NUKED a colony, bombed civilian locations. They were terrorists.

But of course, it's all the UNSC's fault right? Some of it might be, but the rebels escalated the conflict instead of trying diplomacy and peaceful protests.

  • 06.01.2011 7:00 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Imagine a triangle. It's perfect, but a little plain. You take a chisel, and carve a small decorative symbol into it to make it a little more interesting. People like it, but it could use a little more.

So you then take a sledgehammer..


Posted by: ajw34307
Yeah but she also committed one of the greatest atrocities ever. She gave birth to Miranda.

  • 06.01.2011 7:30 AM PDT

I like Call of Duty and Gears of War, AND Halo. Why must everyone else like only one or the other?


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Um, Halsey predicted that the rebels would take control of the entire outer colonies, and gain the ability to turn FTL capable ships into weapons of mass destruction able to take out entire colonies.


Because predictions can't ever be wrong, right?


The rebels NUKED a colony, bombed civilian locations. They were terrorists.


Can you please remind me where these happened. (At least the nuke part. It's been a while since I've read the books, but I do remember the civilian location bombing from Contact Harvest)


But of course, it's all the UNSC's fault right? Some of it might be, but the rebels escalated the conflict instead of trying diplomacy and peaceful protests.


Anyway, my point isn't about justification for or against the Insurrection. My point is that Halsey was not justified in what she did. We deal with terrorism here in the real world, but as far as I am aware, we don't fight them off with soldiers who were kidnapped and trained to serve the government since they were little kids. We fight them with those who choose to join the military to protect their country.

[Edited on 06.01.2011 8:54 AM PDT]

  • 06.01.2011 8:52 AM PDT

Posted by: hotshot revan II
Fine we can nominate the Librarian as the true hero cause she saved Humanity by preserving them in a time where the Humans were nearly wiped out.


Didn't Didact originally build the Halos though?

  • 06.01.2011 9:05 AM PDT


Posted by: The Elite Elite

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Um, Halsey predicted that the rebels would take control of the entire outer colonies, and gain the ability to turn FTL capable ships into weapons of mass destruction able to take out entire colonies.


Because predictions can't ever be wrong, right?


The rebels NUKED a colony, bombed civilian locations. They were terrorists.


Can you please remind me where these happened. (At least the nuke part. It's been a while since I've read the books, but I do remember the civilian location bombing from Contact Harvest)


But of course, it's all the UNSC's fault right? Some of it might be, but the rebels escalated the conflict instead of trying diplomacy and peaceful protests.


Anyway, my point isn't about justification for or against the Insurrection. My point is that Halsey was not justified in what she did. We deal with terrorism here in the real world, but as far as I am aware, we don't fight them off with soldiers who were kidnapped and trained to serve the government since they were little kids. We fight them with those who choose to join the military to protect their country.


In 2511, a terrorist suicide bomber with the Freedom and Liberation Party loaded a commercial nuclear explosive along with several tons of scrap Cadmium into a rental truck before detonating it in the promenade of the Haven Arcology. The blast killed two million people and injured another 8.3 million. Millions more were expected to die due to cancers and other diseases caused by the radioactive fallout, as well as cause birth defects for generations afterwards.

Difference though, in modern times we aren't looking at the possibility for massive lose of human life. The situation the UNSC faced required a drastic action, the creation of the spartans.

  • 06.01.2011 11:21 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron
Difference though, in modern times we aren't looking at the possibility for massive lose of human life. The situation the UNSC faced required a drastic action, the creation of the spartans.

Hmm...

Halsey is not responsible for the Insurrection, the UNSC is. Whatever they do is not her fault. She is not, therefore, morally obligated to do anything, and she is not morally permitted to ruin the life of an innocent.

Therefore she would not be "wrong" if she did nothing, but she is "wrong" in ruining the life of an innocent.

This all depends on what your morals are. I do not expect you to agree at all, it is all subjective.

@the people saying Didact....Seriously?

[Edited on 06.01.2011 12:14 PM PDT]

  • 06.01.2011 12:13 PM PDT

  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2
  • of 2