Halo 1 & 2 for PC
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Subject: Tips for a successful port
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Download Halo Custom Edition for user created maps!
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Ah. Halo 2 for PC just for Vista, and most likely Direct X 10, just as the custom edition community foresaw. I hope you would take the advice given to you from those who have stuck with Custom Edition and work with the HEK even to this day. Anyways, I don’t know if my voice will be heard, but I really want to speak on this subject. Here is my advice for a successful continuation of a custom-content environment:

Please don’t newbify it: While doing so will invariably create an incredible amount of content from the start, it does not change the learning curve as to create good and well conceived work. Keep the development to Max, Guerilla, Sapien, and Tool. I'm sure you've got quite the upgrades from the locked up ones you publicly released for HEK. And don’t lock anything up... It only pains us to have to get things hacked so we can use them. Aside from that, a good reason not to newbify the content creation side is the player/server ratio. Keeping the process as it is for CE, new content won’t oversaturate the servers. This will ensure servers will generally be using maps that are available. There’s nothing worse than logging into the server lobby and not being able to find a server with a map you have.

Maps: Right now for Custom Edition, to obtain new maps, you have to either get one through a file transfer with a friend, or from some sort of free hosting. Luckily for the community, our great friend, who goes by the alias UXB, has blessed us with www.halomaps.org. Without it, maps would have virtually no means of propagation or advertisement. I could go on and on about ways to fix this. I’ve found, though, all but one way is unreasonable. The only way I see this truly working out is to have a centralized map center, similar to halomaps.org. This gives a place for new content to be shown off and shared. Although something such as getting a map from a server or user would be the quickest, not all connections could deal with an extra strain of data flow, nor could all servers afford the bandwidth. Getting a map while already in-game could also lead to exploits that would inevitably cause cheating.

Security: The system Custom Edition uses where the client has to restart in order to verify maps still needs to be implemented. While I’m sure something like this will be done, I cant stress how much it needs to be done. With this, map hacking, such as what was most prevailent with Halo 2 XBL cheating and Halo PC will be avoided. Not only does the active multiplayer portion of this port need security, but the prerelease portion as well. The Custom Edition community has a set of ethics, pretty much. Cutting through the crap, those who spend such an amount of time creating a piece of work don’t want it easily stolen. This has been argued to death, but summing it up, there are those who want a completely open source environment and there are those who want a closed source one. Meeting in the middle for future development, the ability to encrypt a map to protect the content inside has been developed for those who want to keep their work their own. This is invaluable for keeping beta builds safe, for instance.

Documentation: I quite honestly don’t know whether the HEK tutorial was just something filed in as a “basic needs” only, a joke, or if no one thought that it would stem much farther from such maps. But quite honestly, look where the community stands now in comparison to that tutorial.

Full access: While source access would be nice, I know it to be unreasonable since the line Halo is not at a close. Having full access to event handlers and functions would be really nice. Being able to create true campaign level lists would be nice, for instance.

Servers: I quite enjoy the servers that Halo uses. I also like the ‘-debug’ switch. I don’t like the ‘-debug’ switch being used in a match. Adding a server command that would allow devmode to be used or blocked would prevent another line of cheating from arising. Also, before the new year started, HIV clan added a server application to their server which based administration status on a combination of hashes, etc. instead of a simple password. This allowed quite a string of neat things. I recommend dropping into a game where there are quite a few people with the [HIV] tag on. You’ll see what I mean if you do.

Netcode: If you include 56k support, you will kill the title. Halo PC was notorious for its huge leading and warping. Custom Edition fixed nearly all of this, but it is still noticeable. Countless numbers have fled from terrible netcode. Don’t make countless more flee.

That covers pretty much everything on my mind. The only thing I can suggest would be to get closer with the Custom Edition community. While you are the professionals, the community is the one with the hands on end user experience. We can tell you what works, what doesn’t work, and what should be done to make something truly successful.


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Comments, suggestions?

  • 02.09.2006 1:39 PM PDT

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I agree with you on everything you said even though I don't mod or create maps. This is one of the top ten posts I have ever seen on these forums. Thorough, concise and well-written. Pure poetry. *wipes a tear from my eye*

  • 02.09.2006 1:50 PM PDT
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He knows what he's talking about. I know what he's talking about. I don't completly agree on the keep it to max tool guerilla sapien though. Atleast have an exporter for maya/xsi aswell. People shouldn't have to either pay for max, or pirate it just to be able to make maps.

  • 02.09.2006 1:54 PM PDT
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Download Halo Custom Edition for user created maps!
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http://hce.halomaps.org/index.cfm?pg=3&fid=410
The few, the proud, the leet.

Well, I've allready lost hope. It isn't a very good sign that a moderator can not tell the difference between Halo PC and something that's directed towards the developers on a completely different title.

  • 02.09.2006 2:04 PM PDT

Rawr!

Good post, Zeph.

The worst thing that Bungie could do is make this 56K compatible. As you said, it would kill the game. Halo PC was horrible because of this. We'd have a nice game of 7 people on broadband. We'd wait for an 8th, and then we'd get a lagger. Many times, the game's host wouldn't have the console enabled, so he wouldn't be able to boot the lagger either. Sure, we could ask him to leave politely, but that never worked.

I know Halo 2 has the option available to the party host, so thats good. Just don't allow those who haven't advanced in the world of technology to play Halo 2 PC. You're making the game Vista-only. Thats good. Make it Broadband only too. You'll find that you'll have a lot more happy customers if you make it broadband only. I quit playing Halo PC and switched over to Custom Edition for a number of reasons. The main ones, however, were:

1. The lag in PC was horrible at likes, with pings often reaching into 1000 ms+. Terrible. CE didn't improve much, but it was a bit better. Mainly because 56Kers wouldn't even download the CE file.
2. Custom content in CE. :)

Now, with the custom content... All I can say is this: Leave everything in Guerilla/Sapien or whatever you throw our way unlocked. Don't lock the stuff up like you did with the widgets in Halo Custom Edition. The brains of the community (Namely kornman. <3) hacked Guerilla and Sapien like crazy, and got that stuff unlocked for us. Theres tons of people in the community working with these new options to create bigger and better things. You'll find that you'll have a happy community when you don't limit what you give them. :)

And if you're going to allow custom content, GIVE US THE SINGLE PLAYER TAGS. My gosh, that was quite a fiasco in the Custom Edition community. A few people decided to create a monopoly with the tags from the campaign that you guys decided to not let us have early on. That led to some anger in the community. Eventually they were released in a large download, and then later we got the Halo Editing Kit Plus, the great application by SteelixB that allowed individuals to convert tags from Halo PC (namely the campaign) to Halo: Custom Edition, as well as do other things. Don't hold back - give us the full ability to do stuff. Please don't decide to not give us the single player tags.

Zeph mentioned something about the tutorial for the Halo Editing Kit as well. That was terrible. It was amazingly basic, the pictures weren't all that good, and the documentation was sometimes confusing. Bungie, hopefully, with the custom content, you can make a nice little flash tutorial or SOMETHING that will cover much more than just the very basics.

And I'm hoping you guys won't just give us the ability to make maps. I'd be a little upset if we could only make maps, and couldn't make new weapons, vehicles, etc. We need everything. Weapons, vehicles, scenery... you name it. We want it.

And the Halo scripting would be nice too. Thanks to Kornman again, we can use the same scripts that you guys used for Halo PC's campaign in our own custom multiplayer and single player maps. Of course, the scripts in multiplayer often/usually did not sync across the netcode. That brings me to my next point:

SYNC EVERYTHING YOU CAN.

We can kick up what we're going to send over the netcode here if we eliminate 56K support like we should. With the scripts in Halo Custom Edition, we've been forced to do additional scripting to check the health and status of things like bipeds and vehicles in order to sync everything across the netcode properly. Sure, its doable, but its more work than its really worth.


Bungie, for Halo 2 PC, you really, really, really need a server list. Get rid of matchmaking and the ranking system. Its horrible for Halo 2. Look at how many people absolutely despise Halo 2's matchmaking system. It only does a few things:

1. Gives people levels that they brag about. Congrats! You have a 50 that you cheated to get. WHO CARES?!?!
2. Give people reasons to cheat.

Halo 2 on the Xbox would have been SO much better with a server list and without matchmaking... or with both, I guess. In unranked custom games, you NEVER see people cheating. Theres no point in it! Get rid of the levels and of matchmaking completely, and the maturer members of your fanbase will be quite happy. Keep in mind - mommy and daddy will buy their young kids Xboxes and video games. But when it comes to buying new thousand dollar computers and expensive new operating systems and graphics cards, mommy and daddy probably won't give Johnny that stuff. A lot of your younger fan base is going to be eliminated here. Thats a good thing. Focus on the people who will actually support you with Halo 2 PC. Don't just simply give in to the screaming kids on the forums here that go "OMG BUNGIE WHY ARE WE STARTING WITH A BATTLE RIFLE? I WANT MY SMG BACK! WHAAAAAAAAA!" Those kids probably won't even get Halo 2 PC. Actually LISTEN to your fan base this time. Team Hardcore was perhaps the best thing that has happened to Halo 2. Ever. Thats the ONE time you truely listened to your fan base. Let me assure you - the MLG crowd is ***not *** in the minority.

If you get rid of the levels, cheating will be completely pointless. In the server list, individual game hosters will have the ability to boot any cheaters anyways. That'll eliminate cheating right there.

With the custom content too, make sure you have an in-game map downloader or something. Don't make users leave the game and go to a random website in order to download the map. Thats what shot Custom Edition in the foot.

All in all... Bunige, I do hope you'll do a better job with Halo 2 PC than Gearbox did with Halo Custom Edition. I understand they were limited in what they could distribute... And I have a feeling that some of those limitations were put in place by you guys. Don't be stingy. Allow us to take advantage of our full potential. Otherwise... Don't expect a happy fan base.



And for God's sake, make the magnum worthwhile again.

edit: Wow, Zeph, you're correct. :( *plays taps and cries*


[Edited on 2/9/2006]

  • 02.09.2006 2:16 PM PDT
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Download Halo Custom Edition for user created maps!
Link
http://hce.halomaps.org/index.cfm?pg=3&fid=410
The few, the proud, the leet.

Perhaps if there was a means for the maps to be added to the allready cleared ones? Such as if you were to go into the server list, see a map you want, alt+tab out, download it, alt+tab back in, click something like refresh maps cache to scan for new maps, then be able to join a server playing that map.

As for multiplayer syncing, either they use the methods of scripting switches like we do in CE, or they synced it up.

  • 02.09.2006 2:29 PM PDT
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How about having a server set aside where people can upload maps, maybe reviewed by bungie before actually putting them up for download maybe, and have the game download a map from that server. You wouldn't have to exit the game to get a map then.

  • 02.09.2006 3:12 PM PDT
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My short suggestions:
* Vote Kick
* Anti-Hack
* Registration System (every player has a profile, to track the -blam!-s better, and stats.)
* Improved Netcode
* Windows XP (I'm serious about this one)
* VoIP communication
* single-bandwidth option (why give us that? Eliminate the bandwidth option)
* X-fi supported
* Admin controls easily accessible

I will continue to add to this list later on.

  • 02.09.2006 4:05 PM PDT
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My only concern is that since Halo 2 for Xbox is still alive and thriving, allowing custom map tools to be released for the PC version will cause the already severe cheating problem on Xbox to worsen. If they release map tools and the such, they need to severely alter the map file structures so that they can't be brought over into the Xbox Community. I don't know anything about Halo CE (I own the game on Xbox) so if I'm totally out of touch here, sorry.

  • 02.09.2006 5:13 PM PDT
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CE maps can't be played on the xbox. I would think porting the engine would require enough of a change in the map file to make it unplayable on an xbox.

  • 02.09.2006 5:27 PM PDT
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Download Halo Custom Edition for user created maps!
Link
http://hce.halomaps.org/index.cfm?pg=3&fid=410
The few, the proud, the leet.

Posted by: jellburn
My only concern is that since Halo 2 for Xbox is still alive and thriving, allowing custom map tools to be released for the PC version will cause the already severe cheating problem on Xbox to worsen. If they release map tools and the such, they need to severely alter the map file structures so that they can't be brought over into the Xbox Community. I don't know anything about Halo CE (I own the game on Xbox) so if I'm totally out of touch here, sorry.


CE uses a different storage method from PC. It's why you can play CE maps on PC and vice versa. The same can be said for the xbox maps. I'm sure they'll do the same for the port.

  • 02.09.2006 6:58 PM PDT
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for map editing: it would be nice to support other graphics editors beside 3dsmax. i use cinema 4d, and 3ds max is just all backward and weird to me. i cant handle it :S

i really would like to see something *like* (when i say like i mean very roughly like... obviously it cant be too similar) warcraft III's world editor. ive made some decent mods and scripting for warcraft III, and not only can you use the built in doodads and stuff you can import your own custom models and the like and use them as custom objects. if there was a easier way to make maps it would make me very happy. I tire of not being able to mod halo CE simply because 3ds max confuses me.

thats all i have to say

  • 02.09.2006 7:52 PM PDT
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r : w )

Hi Zeph, thanks for the thoughtful post. While it's too early for me to comment on details yet, rest assured that we're keeping the items you mentioned (and plenty more!) in mind, are making choices we think the community will like / find useful (yes, including the Vista requirement, which is a *technical* choice we made as engineers and not a management directive. That platform will provide us with certain features that will greatly benefit the game experience).

Anyway, I don't have particular details to share right now, but I wanted to let you know that your posts aren't going unnoticed :-)

  • 02.09.2006 9:00 PM PDT
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Posted by: sawnose
(yes, including the Vista requirement, which is a *technical* choice we made as engineers and not a management directive. That platform will provide us with certain features that will greatly benefit the game experience).


i would like to emphasize this. not that i should take words out of his mouth or put more in, i would like to say that the reason for the vista requirement as i understand it is because running in vista will give extra options that a cross-compatible version would not have. so trade compatibility for features, and here we have it. no more bickering over the vista requirement. its bugging me.

youre supposed to be 17 or older to play halo 2 anyway, and most people should have a job. just save some money starting now and when vista comes out you will be able to afford it unless your salary sucks. in that case, get a new job. (im kidding... i know how hard that can be)

i dont see the problem with the vista req. this is so far in the future that these opinions will likely change anyway. just wait and see and stop bickering

[Edited on 2/9/2006]

  • 02.09.2006 9:04 PM PDT
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Download Halo Custom Edition for user created maps!
Link
http://hce.halomaps.org/index.cfm?pg=3&fid=410
The few, the proud, the leet.

Posted by: sawnose
Hi Zeph, thanks for the thoughtful post. While it's too early for me to comment on details yet, rest assured that we're keeping the items you mentioned (and plenty more!) in mind, are making choices we think the community will like / find useful (yes, including the Vista requirement, which is a *technical* choice we made as engineers and not a management directive. That platform will provide us with certain features that will greatly benefit the game experience).

Anyway, I don't have particular details to share right now, but I wanted to let you know that your posts aren't going unnoticed :-)


I'm grateful for your reply. No offense, but I thought my cause was lost after this topic was moved down here. There is a thread going on with many of the current community at gearbox's forums. I'll PM it to you, because I dont know the specifics on your rules about such a thing.

And about Vista, I'm only griping because I'll be needing new hardware and software($$$). I think that's the only thing that's nagging at people about the platform choice.

  • 02.09.2006 9:37 PM PDT
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First of all, very good points you made there
Second, its good to see the people who work at bungie reading and posting the forums thats the sign of a great game to come and great community/company relations
Third, hello everyone i'm new to the forums, hoping to keep on posting and staying active here :)

  • 02.09.2006 11:26 PM PDT
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One point regarding map creation that I'd like to bring up. If it is indeed going to be kept to Max, Saipen, etc, then sealed world rules have to go!
This makes map making a real pain in the ass. Nothing is more anoying or time consuming than picking your way through a map to find a single vertex that is not connected or missing.
The sealed world rules deter many from realising their map making dreams. I have seen plenty of brilliant maps thrown in the trash can because of Max/Sealed world rules problems :o(

  • 02.10.2006 2:53 AM PDT

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Posted by: sawnose
(yes, including the Vista requirement, which is a *technical* choice we made as engineers and not a management directive. That platform will provide us with certain features that will greatly benefit the game experience).

Long-time no-see, sawnose! And thanks for the info.

Anyway, I don't have particular details to share right now, but I wanted to let you know that your posts aren't going unnoticed :-)
Dangit, and I was going to ask what in particular was the feature of Vista that put it over-the-top as the platform of choice. Oh well. It'll keep.

-- Steve's used to waiting for info like that.

  • 02.10.2006 7:19 AM PDT
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Windows Vista being used is a joke. Sorry, but who decided that? Games are still being made that can be run on 98.

Xp is not that old, and I refuse to upgrade my OS simply because of a game. Otherwise I am perfectly happy with XP.

I sincerly dont beleive that its on Vista for any proper decent technical reasons.

If there is some, I expect them to be available at some point.

Apart from the technical side, it doesnt make sense either.

To only sell a game on one platform thats for an OS thats going to be brand new out, is not smart.

When you find out that you can have a decent computer but cant even run that OS, it makes even less sense.

But I agree with the general concensus.

Does not support 56k.

Has better netcode.

Does not allow you to choose your own connection type. (How many low pingers do you think choose a higher one than they actually had, beleiving it would help when it actually hindered?)

Away from keyboard kick (AFK).

No loopholes in the autobans i.e. leaving then rejoining right away.

No matchmaking, allow us server choosing just like in halo PC.

Allow us to use servers, not just hosts.

A few more options on the server screen, such as:

Add to favourites (want the ability to delete from favourites too).

Obviously its going to be full of nice touches, but things like adding a server to favourites and giving it a name you choose would make all the difference.

Not that it means much to me, as I wont be buying vista for a very long time, unless I get it free somehow (doubtful, cos I like my stuff legal), or windows XP becomes so full of security holes its dangerous.

Remember, if the technical reasons are given why you want it to run on Vista only, there will be a lot less moaning.

I am of the personal opinion that its just to force upgrades on people. Especially after reading that tripe in the news page, and the FAQs.

  • 02.10.2006 8:12 AM PDT
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Microsoft won't tell anyone any specs until they feel like it. They won't tell you what features caused the decision because it would "give away" some of the features. If vista is too much of a change from XP, then I would choose vista aswell.

Sealed world rules are for the collision. If they got rid of that rule, you would have to make another model, exactly the same, that is sealed. Its much easier to make only one model and have it sealed. Its not their fault if you can't figure out how to seal it.

[Edited on 2/10/2006]

  • 02.10.2006 8:30 AM PDT
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Sorry chewy, mind putting that in laymans terms, went over my head at altitude.

  • 02.10.2006 9:06 AM PDT
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UT2004 and Ued use non-sealed world rules.... need i say anymore.

  • 02.10.2006 9:37 AM PDT

k Zzzyax- (kay-zye-axe) Zzzyax was always tired of being picked last... hence the k
---
Xfire: zzzyax
Halo 3/XBL: Zzzyax

im too lazy to read all that, but i probably agree with almost everything said, will we have to buy new computers to play h2pc?

  • 02.10.2006 10:55 AM PDT

Rawr!

Are UT2004 and Ued Halo?

;)

  • 02.10.2006 11:48 AM PDT
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Having not used Ued, I cannot say for certainty, but I do assume Halo allows more flexability than Ued. Sealed world rule isn't hard to follow. You have a hole, you fix it.

You won't be told why they are using vista other than vague allusions, because microsoft wants to keep all that vista can do a secret.

  • 02.10.2006 12:05 PM PDT

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