Halo 1 & 2 for PC
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Subject: H2 PC: 56k or no 56k support?
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Posted by: aM Inspire
Before a lot of you guys came around, I made a very specific guide on the difference between lag as a whole and latency. My dialup is low latency - hence why I usually hover just below 300ms total latency in HPC.


300ms is low latency? wow. i average 22ms to most EU servers in most games.

Never happened to me in all the time I've played on 56k. Most people just think I'm playing in the UK on US servers and don't even realize I'm on 56k until I tell them. Then they get embarassed that they're losing a no-sheilds sniper match to a guy on 56k.

He shouldn't be embarassed, it's your fault he's losing. You are running at 56k, which means you are VERY limited to the number of packets you can send and recieve per second. This, in simple terms, means your hit detection is utter -blam!-e, you can hit other people quite easily, but they can't hit you because you're not in sync with the server. This is exploited in CS:S with something called "Rate hacking", where you limit the number of packets you can send and recieve per second to a number around 10, this does 2 things, first, it makes it look like your ping is 5ms and second, it makes you nearly impossible to hit, while having no impact on your ability to hti others.


Obviously for me, 56k cuts it on HPC and you don't know what you're talking about. I pwn guys on DSL everyday. And nobody warps, lags out, etc.


Nobody appears to warp on your screen. This is, as i have already explained, due to H1PC's crappy netcode and your limited number of packets a second. You're probably all over the place on their screens, especially as your ping is 300ms.


So you know what engine they're using to do the port? Would you mind telling the rest of us?

Halo 2 uses the Havok physics engine, which is also used in the Source engine, this means that the core engines are similar, so cpu time and bandwidth requirements will also be similar.


That doesn't make any sense at all. Graphics are processed locally. They're not uploaded and downloaded from the server. All of your graphics are handled client-side. I've already explained the kind of information an HPC DS needs to keep up with for each player - graphics has nothing to do with it.


When i said graphically intensive, i was referring to the constant action and the large number of objects on the maps, every one of which has to be tracked by the server. Then you have to factor in hitboxes and bullets, a RTS game for hit detection will just go "is it in range?""yes""firing""damage=2d6 " or whatever (obviously not in english) whereas a FPS has to submit the fact that you are firing, the server has to register that fact, then using it's current record of your position and camera, work out the vector of the bullet, factoring in its speed, then check if there are any hitboxes along that vector at the time it would be there, then if there are, it has to calculate the damage done, then send all that information to all the clients involved. Trust me on this one, FPSs use tonnes more bandwidth than anything else.
This is also why 56kers lag, as i said before, they can't send as many packets per second which means the server doesn't have an accurate knowledge of their position so when the person with an accurate view tries to fire, the server is still showing you as 1/3 of a second behind where you were, so you don't get hit.

Basically: as much as you say "but i think it works fine" it doesn't, and don't ever think it does, cos it doesn't.

[Edited on 2/17/2006]

  • 02.17.2006 6:10 AM PDT
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Theres alot more to the engines than havok physics.

  • 02.17.2006 8:31 AM PDT
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yeah no kidding, what the hell no -blam!- it has a havok physics engine, ya know what that does? it processes physics, nothing else, in fact that physics engine doesnt even do as much as i wish it should. if only the xbox could have had afew more resources, then halo 2 could have had better physics, and Half Life 2, might not have lagged so damn bad. dont forget alot of games use havok physics engines, but that doesnt make the core engine similar. so before i say anything would you like to inform me how exactly an engine that has been configured to utilise a havok physics engine, makes it similar to another engine that uses a havok physics engine?

-Fooluaintblack

[Edited on 2/17/2006]

  • 02.17.2006 12:09 PM PDT
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the vast majority of what data is run by the cpu in a game is physics and ai. most other aspects of the game are graphical. In multiplayer, if there are no bots involved, the cpu is dedicating nearly all of its time to physics. Since the physics engines are very similar, then the amount of cpu usage at similar times will also be similar. Obviously no two games are identical, but it gives a rough idea. Obviously a computer that cannot handle havok physics in other games will not handle halo 2 well. This is what he was saying.

  • 02.17.2006 12:21 PM PDT
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good point, but physics isnt as important as everything else. and everything else is what is different. that and no two havok physics engines are the same, they are all custom tailored to the games needs, so some may do more, and some may do less. so if it were to do less, that means more that you can devote to other things. ... ive just realised we are pretty much talking about nothing, and i was just thinking that physics would probably take alot of bandwidth too, especialy in a very large battle, with so many things moving individualy, and the server having to look at there position, rotation, etc. it would add alot of packets to be sent and recieved. having an online map that was like a giant (and very complex) rube goldberg device might be alittle troublesome :-), or even alot of warthogs that are being moved around by grenades and such. that reminds me, i am really looking forward to those physics cards what was the specs on the one on G4? 50,000 objects can be rendered? and a normal cpu can only handle like 50 (if that)?

anyway...

-Fooluaintblack

  • 02.17.2006 2:11 PM PDT
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The main reason lag exists becuz of players' internet speeds. So NO screw 56k and let them burn. They can play Runescape for being too cheep to buy DSL.

  • 02.17.2006 5:05 PM PDT
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thank you for that insightful, arrogant, reply. you have just risen in the eyes of everyone who takes part on these forums.

-Fooluaintblack

  • 02.17.2006 5:14 PM PDT
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sry but I just hate it when some1 comes to my server and lags and makes all the other people quit, but I stand by my reply.

  • 02.17.2006 5:17 PM PDT
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And of course I am not black.

  • 02.17.2006 5:17 PM PDT
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if its your server, why dont you boot them? as for standing by your reply, you stand by people being to cheap to purchase DSL (or some other high speed internet connection)? because ofcourse EVERYONE has the ability to get broadband dont they? no one would be restricted by their location, or budget.

-Fooluaintblack

ps. "Fooluaintblack" is not a comment to you, its my xbox live gamertag, and what i usually go by, so i put it there so that should someone see fooluaintblack (and has seen this) they might recall that it would be me.

  • 02.17.2006 5:23 PM PDT
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Huzzah for ignorance! Now, I know that it's been said countless times already, but not all of us have the luxury of access to broadband speed connections. I'm stuck with dial-up, yet I hardly get complaints from other players of lagging up the game. And as a matter of fact I've had nights where I've been able to play with up to 10 players without lag.

And accusing me of being cheap or a loser just because I have no other option for an internet connection is just unfair. I live WAY outside of any service areas for broadband. And if I could shell over $100 a month for DSL out here I would, believe me. I hate having dial-up just as much as most of you hate us.

So for now I'm saying allow 56K users to play, maybe if some miracle happens and broadband or cable becomes available out here I'll change my mind.

  • 02.17.2006 8:58 PM PDT
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and now to go to the other side of the fence.

just because you cant get dsl doesnt mean that you should instantly be allowed into a broadband intensive area. thats like saying "i cant get/afford a good suit so ill just go to the fancy dance in my overalls.", if you did that, you would probably be stopped at the door. and if you were let in, you would be hampering the experience of everyone else, and you would be scorned. (pretty good for on the fly), once again i will say i dont intend to be mean, but thats how it is, and at this particular dance i say the overalls go.

-Fooluaintblack

  • 02.17.2006 9:49 PM PDT
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300ms is low latency? wow. i average 22ms to most EU servers in most games.


22ms on HPC? Is HPC included when you ever so casually say "most games"? If so, I find that hard to believe.

I live in the US, and it's slightly larger than the UK (and it doesn't have a nice fiber-optic network). Add that to Hurricane Katrina, and I don't have any servers anywhere near me. Most players that I see on HPC hold between 100 and 200ms, so I think 300 ms using dialup is right fine on HPC, considering all this.

Oh, by the way - I'd love to see a screenshot of you playing HPC with a 22ms ping. It would.... Inspire me (LAN games need not apply).


He shouldn't be embarassed, it's your fault he's losing. You are running at 56k, which means you are VERY limited to the number of packets you can send and recieve per second. This, in simple terms, means your hit detection is utter -blam!-e, you can hit other people quite easily, but they can't hit you because you're not in sync with the server. This is exploited in CS:S with something called "Rate hacking", where you limit the number of packets you can send and recieve per second to a number around 10, this does 2 things, first, it makes it look like your ping is 5ms and second, it makes you nearly impossible to hit, while having no impact on your ability to hti others.


No, not really. Gearbox did the port to include 56k support, I'm simply playing the game. If that causes runtime errors, is it my fault? Should you be held accountable for every blue screen of death windows gives you? Where's the logic?

I don't find it easier to hit people on 56k at all - in fact, I find it harder.

I know what packets are. I also realize that you wave your hand and use big words so I won't notice that you give no direct cause to claim my hit detection is crap. By your own explanation (later on in your 'post'), hit detection is done server-side, so it only matters where I am in the mind of the server, yes? So if I'm consistently 1/3 of a second behind, then the server actually has a pretty good picture of me - it's just a little behind. Kind of like how the elevator doesn't exert a force on you once it starts moving. If somebody shoots at me - they shoot at where the server tells them I am and the server decides whether I live or die by where the server thinks I am, as well. It doesn't matter where I am on my screen.

We're talking about HPC, not CS:S so stop equivocating and make a genuine arguement. Unless they were made on the same engine..............


Nobody appears to warp on your screen. This is, as i have already explained, due to H1PC's crappy netcode and your limited number of packets a second. You're probably all over the place on their screens, especially as your ping is 300ms.


You're right. Nobody warps on my screen. Oh wait - that's right except me. If the server warps me, it has the ultimate effect of making the game choppy - you knw - one of those things you tend to notice when you're used to a nice 30 fps. That doesn't usually happen to me. When it starts, I usually have about five seconds before I lose my connection to the server. And it usually doesn't happen until my ping gets much higher than 300ms.


When i said graphically intensive, i was referring to the constant action and the large number of objects on the maps, every one of which has to be tracked by the server. Then you have to factor in hitboxes and bullets, a RTS game for hit detection will just go "is it in range?""yes""firing""damage=2d6 " or whatever (obviously not in english) whereas a FPS has to submit the fact that you are firing, the server has to register that fact, then using it's current record of your position and camera, work out the vector of the bullet, factoring in its speed, then check if there are any hitboxes along that vector at the time it would be there, then if there are, it has to calculate the damage done, then send all that information to all the clients involved. Trust me on this one, FPSs use tonnes more bandwidth than anything else.
This is also why 56kers lag, as i said before, they can't send as many packets per second which means the server doesn't have an accurate knowledge of their position so when the person with an accurate view tries to fire, the server is still showing you as 1/3 of a second behind where you were, so you don't get hit.


Then maybe you shouldn't have referred to graphics because nothing in that paragraph of explanation says anything about graphics, much less intensive ones. It simply describes what the server has to keep track of - which was my point - graphics mean nothing - only what the server has to keep track of, which I will reiterate does not include graphics.

H2PC uses Havok? How did you figure that out? How could it use a 32-bit engine that doesn't support multi-threading if those are the primary reasons that the game is being made for Vista in the first place?

So basically: what you said contradicted itself. It does work for me - In spite of the contradictory quasi-theoretical herrings, it somehow, magically works for me and doesn't bother other players.

How would I know? I join each game and say, "I'm on 56k - lemme know if you guys lag any more than usual and I'll find another game."


Basically, the netcode needs to be massively improved otherwise anyone below 512kbps will not have a chance in hell of getting a decent game in.


Really? I played perfectly fine on DSL Lite (256k) before my hometown was destroyed. Maybe you should leave chance and probability calculations to somebody who's more qualified. (btw, I'm a biostatistican.)

Being fifteen and paying for your own stuff yourself doesn't make you a genius. You were wrong about ISDN speeds and its availability. You were wrong about 56k never having been for gaming (now you say it's only good for basic rts and text based stuff - would you care to change your mind without actually admitting you were mistaken again?)

Oh, you should be happy, because I'm actually obeying your omniscient commands and 'logic'. I don't think it works, I know.

Maybe not as well as it works for you, but it still works.

[Edited on 2/17/2006]

  • 02.17.2006 10:11 PM PDT
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well thats a slap in the boxers.

  • 02.17.2006 11:37 PM PDT
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Posted by: The_Blackness
well thats a slap in the boxers.

that. is the single biggest understatment i have heard in the last 18 years.

  • 02.18.2006 8:53 AM PDT
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vxvc

  • 02.18.2006 10:04 AM PDT
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Posted by: Iamwhie
Posted by: The_Blackness
well thats a slap in the boxers.

that. is the single biggest understatment i have heard in the last 18 years.


I triple that.

It is logical that h2pc will use havok, because that is what h2xbox used. They aren't going to make their own physics engine, thats why they used havok.

[Edited on 2/18/2006]

  • 02.18.2006 12:33 PM PDT
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Not to argue, chewy, but do you think they'll be able to use havok in its present state on such a different OS (with a very different architechture) with DX10 when H2 Xbox used a modified version of DX8? I may not be on the money here, but it just seems like the native environment will be so different that it will necessitate some sort of change.

  • 02.18.2006 12:47 PM PDT
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Not to argue, chewy, but do you think they'll be able to use havok in its present state on such a different OS (with a very different architechture) with DX10 when H2 Xbox used a modified version of DX8? I may not be on the money here, but it just seems like the native environment will be so different that it will necessitate some sort of change.

adjusting havok to work with a vista based game probably wont be too hard. those physics engines are designed to be manipulated so that they fit into their work environment. besides im sure that the havok guru's can assist should something require their expertise, besides this is microsoft, im sure they can afford it.

also has anyone here recieved a slap in the boxers? i have, its not so different from a kick, you might expect a kick but to have your girl actually smack em down... its an experience.

-Fooluaintblack

  • 02.18.2006 3:19 PM PDT
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Thanks blackness, so it will be an adjusted version of the havok engine then, eh?

It wasn't that I said it wouldn't use havok, I just really didn't know and it didn't make sense to me, so I was really only looking for an explanation. Thanks.

  • 02.18.2006 7:12 PM PDT
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obviously i cant say for sure, but from what i can guess, yeah. well those are my thoughts anyway.

so i guess no one has recieved a slap to the boxers :).

-Fooluaintblack

  • 02.18.2006 8:57 PM PDT
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Broadband has been thrown into the main stream only remote area's now can't access broadband, it would be rediculas for bungie to not take advantage of the possibibites of the broadband age, Xbox live requires broadband too, remember that ;)

  • 02.19.2006 3:50 AM PDT
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My, my, my; did I open a can of worms or what =Þ

currently *as the poll stands*, almost 4 times as many people don’t want dial-up as those who do (38 to 10). 2 people want partial support, 2 people have 28.8 k connections, and 7 people don’t think dial-up exists anymore. I have dial-up, but by the time H2PC comes out, I will be at MTU in Michigan *For those of you who don’t know where that is...*. There I will have a greater amount of bandwidth. BUT I still feel for the lowband community. Some of us just don’t have the luxury of a broadband connection.

About my proposed test to see what would happen if everyone in a game set their connection speeds to a 56k connection, I think that we should try that on the maw server some time. It would be interesting to see the results of that little experiment. I don’t know exactly how the connection settings affect the packets, but I think that it limits the data in the packets and the amount of packets sent *correct me if I am wrong plz*

I’m glad that there are a few good discussionests *really bad spelling*:
The_Blackness
aM Inspire
me15ter
In addition, anyone else that has not flamed that I forgot *and has posted more than 2 posts*.

Not to be off topic but hopefully in the next update we can see some screen shots of halo 2 pc, may it be a bugged alpha version or not.

EDIT: *fixed spelling and another off topic thing…* I wonder what the new H2PC site will look like? Mmmmm…

[Edited on 2/19/2006]

  • 02.19.2006 7:57 PM PDT
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I dont think people are against 56k support, most are just scared it will be like halo1 pc and have high pingers mess up the game.*

Generally speaking, no-one minds if it doesnt affect them. There will be exceptions to this, but those people are the ones that play online just to Tk anyways,

*Dispite what AM said, in some games people with high pings do make it laggy for others. How they do, I dont know, but its happened a fair few times. Only with halo pc tho.

  • 02.20.2006 1:29 AM PDT
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[best Sarge voice] Come here boy and let me tell you a story......

back in my day we didn't have fancy-wancy broadband connections! We played games ON 56K CONNECTIONS!!!! We had lag, and WE WERE STILL HAPPY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WE STILL PLAYED, AND WE STILL DIDN'T COMPLAIN ABOUT LAG!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now listen here son- you better BE THANKFULL THAT YOU ARE ABLE TO PLAY GAMES ONLINE AT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So either quit your complainin' or GET THE HELL OUTTA HERE MARINE!!!!!!!!!! [/best Sarge voice]

As you can see from the above let them play if they have 56K. Mayby have it so that 56K useres CAN play, but only with other 56K users if it is something you are really that upset about. Deal with the lag.

  • 02.20.2006 6:35 AM PDT

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