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  • Subject: What is the purpose of this "Mantle"?
Subject: What is the purpose of this "Mantle"?

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

We have never been given insight into the reason for the Mantles existence. This might be covered in the next two books but I am interested in exactly why the Precursor would bother to create it given the amount of problems it would cause in trying to enforce it. This might also show us the nature of the Precursors themselves. The reasoning behind the Mantle could be anything, but regardless I think that the Precursors were either an extremely naive race or a malevolent one.

The Mantle appears to be a philosophy based on pacifism. Any sort of violence is outlawed under it, such as warfare, genocide and even as far down as eating meat. Bornstellar made a remark about Humans eating meat that made it look like a primitive, barbaric act in his view. The Mantle is essentially a way of life. The thing is though is that it seems to be absolutism. Every race in the galaxy (Or the Universe as the Didact hypothesised) is supposed to obey it with no exceptions.

That is the first problem I see. Everyone's culture is different, everyone's morals are different. To expect everyone to share the same world view is foolish. Therefore, there is going to be a lot of resistance to accepting the Mantle as a moral framework. It is easy to visualise this happening. Just go to a person who shares a different belief system from you and attempt to tell them that your beliefs are the correct one. They will not agree. Attempt to force them, and things will get hostile. If the Mantle is a philosophy of peace, then it already fails because installing it across the galaxy will result in massive bloodshed.

Going back to what I said about there being no exceptions, we cannot actually for definite say that this is what the Mantle says must happen. That could be a perversion of the Forerunner's making. However, surely the Precursors would have foreseen this? Absolute power corrupts absolutely, as they say. If they really wanted a single race to uphold the Mantle then they must surely have foreseen the possibility that this race (Or its leaders) could bend the Mantle into something that it is not intended to be for personal gain? Although, it is possible that the Mantle in this respect was intended to be a community effort from every race rather than just the one. This could be another of the Forerunner's perversions of the Mantle. Therefore how they came to be the top dog would be a mystery.

Thinking about these two points, it looks like the Precursors were naive beyond reckoning. The Mantle may be an essential thing (More on that in a bit), or it may just simply be an attempt by the Precursor to foster a benign environment for lesser races to thrive in. Either way, to expect people to discard their beliefs and culture on a whim in acceptance of a foreign and entirely new belief system is unreasonable, as is expecting people not to abuse it when given sole charge if its upholding. (If this is indeed true) The alternative I think to nativity is malevolence. Perhaps the Mantle has no essential purpose. Perhaps they wished to use their mythical status as a way to create a seemingly divine set of laws with the sole intent of watching the carnage that would result in people fighting over it?

The Precursors are said to have seeded various worlds with life throughout the galaxy. This fits into both viewpoints really. They either wanted to create peaceful living environments with their knowledge and act as benevolent creator figures, or essentially create a giant war game for whatever reason. (Entertainment?) If this case of malevolence is correct, might this be a potential reason for the Forerunner rising up and destroying the Precursor?

Third option: The Mantle serves a deeper purpose. The Precursors said that the Universe and Sentience where interconnected in some unfathomable way. If the Mantle is built upon this in some way, then what is so important that it must absolutely be followed, and what happens if it is not? Although going back to the Precursor creating various species thing, if the Mantle was something to be absolutely followed, based on objective reasoning, then would the Precursor be willing to create lifeforms that might potentially be rebellious?

I should also point out that there are alternative speculations that others have thought of. One is that the Mantle is a lie fabricated by the Forerunner. With the Forerunners history being so patchy (E.g. The Precursor war not being remembered) it is possible that the Mantle was a ploy to get all the other races subservient and to elevate the Forerunner to galactic dominance. This origin obviously being forgotten, like the Precursor war. Grey101 can explain this one better, it's his idea. I'm just trying to get speculation going here, if at all possible. (Because there's not much information to go on just now unfortunately)

[Edited on 06.16.2011 9:34 PM PDT]

  • 06.16.2011 9:27 PM PDT

Posted by: Commander GX
Bungie.Match.com: Our Johnson knows what the ladies like.

I am now confused.

  • 06.16.2011 9:32 PM PDT
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Rawr Im a dino!

I'm pretty sure the best theory out there is where the precursors created a Geas(Sp? Right word?)on the Forerunners. Which is a dna code or telepathic code that makes a species believe something. Some have speculated that the Librarian created one for humanity after being devolved.

Will update later after looking on halopedia.



Halopedia source.

Geas was an archaic Forerunner term that referred to a generations-long genetic command imposed on an organism or species. Under the influence of a geas, an organism could be given a set of subconscious orders that would be passed on to their children, in some cases lasting several generations. Only highly skilled Forerunner Lifeworkers were capable of creating a geas.

In approximately 100,300 B.C.E., Bornstellar Makes Eternal Lasting speculated that the Librarian had imposed a geas on the human race. Forerunner students of the Mantle also hypothesized that the Precursors may have imposed a geas on the Forerunners themselves.[1]



[Edited on 06.16.2011 9:36 PM PDT]

  • 06.16.2011 9:35 PM PDT

Just got up, haven't had coffee yet - i'll read later.
just one thing: i'm halfway through cryptum and "the mantle" reminds me much of western cultures' "missionary" behaviour - not so much in religious terms, but more in a modern day meaning (delivering democracy through bombs). good intentions =/= good deeds

  • 06.16.2011 9:41 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: PETEYENG
I'm pretty sure the best theory out there is where the precursors created a Geas(Sp? Right word?)on the Forerunners. Which is a dna code or telepathic code that makes a species believe something. Some have speculated that the Librarian created one for humanity after being devolved.

Will update later after looking on halopedia.



Halopedia source.

Geas was an archaic Forerunner term that referred to a generations-long genetic command imposed on an organism or species. Under the influence of a geas, an organism could be given a set of subconscious orders that would be passed on to their children, in some cases lasting several generations. Only highly skilled Forerunner Lifeworkers were capable of creating a geas.

In approximately 100,300 B.C.E., Bornstellar Makes Eternal Lasting speculated that the Librarian had imposed a geas on the human race. Forerunner students of the Mantle also hypothesized that the Precursors may have imposed a geas on the Forerunners themselves.[1]

I forgot about the Geas completely. -_-

Yeah it might be the case that the Precursor genetically programmed loyalty to the Mantle and to themselves in their creations (If they did create). Something has obviously went wrong though. Not just because of the Forerunner destroying them but due to the way the Mantle is imposed on the galaxy.

Posted by: raindoc
Just got up, haven't had coffee yet - i'll read later.
just one thing: i'm halfway through cryptum and "the mantle" reminds me much of western cultures' "missionary" behaviour - not so much in religious terms, but more in a modern day meaning (delivering democracy through bombs). good intentions =/= good deeds

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Or something like that.

[Edited on 06.17.2011 8:33 AM PDT]

  • 06.17.2011 8:31 AM PDT

Didact's Reprisal -
Now is the time of our unworlding
One final effort is all that remains
And I am not afraid
We shall fulfill our promise
We fight for the grace of the Mantle
And this time none of you will be left behind

Could've sworn the Mantle was to extend and protect the Living Time.

  • 06.17.2011 8:56 AM PDT

I only read the first two paragraphs, so I may have missed a few things. I will read it all in a bit, but I want to point something out.

The Mantle does not dictate all races in the universe.

The Mantle is an entitlement to protect all life in the universe, to nuture it and grow it. Born even says it is not a kindness to rob races of their natural ways, including war. That was why the Forerunners felt superior to all others: they felt they alone were mature enough, so to speak, to put aside war and other natural instincts for the good of protecting all life everywhere.

The Mantle applies only to the "special" races, or those chosen by the Precursors. It is not a galactic rule book.

  • 06.17.2011 10:24 AM PDT

In fact, think of it this way.

I've always seen the inheritors of the Mantle to be sort of like the parents or heads of some daycare center.

They watch over and distance themselves from the younger, ignorant races (children), watch them grow, and intervene only to protect them from harm (perhaps saving races from things like a supernova). Didact does mention that the Forerunners deliberately distance themselves to protect the Mantle.

However, as a learning process, proper inheritors will not intervene in the squabbles of these younger races.

Children get into fights for stupid reasons. Perhaps one stole something of personal value from the other. They get into arguments(political battles) and, if that goes no where, fist fights (war).

This is no different in the case of civilizations, just that the fights are more tragic.

As I said, proper inheritors try to intervene as less as possible and act only as guardian angels for the races of the galaxy. Unfortunately, the Forerunners strike me as the teenager who thinks they're ready, but they're not (overthrowing the father's(Precursor's) rule and possibly ruining the older brother's(humanaity's) chances of taking obver the household).

They get involved in the fist fights, believing that pain and punishment will stop the squabbles and due to their vastly superior size and power, severely injure the smaller children.

The Forerunners have a warped interpretation of the Mantle, under the false notion the Mantle demands dictatorship and violent control.

And then, when a seriel killer or other criminal arrives at the household (The Flood) where only the father and the brother would have any idea how to deal with it, but are in no fit state to deal with it or explain it on account of both being driven from the house(Milky Way) by the over-eager younger brother, the entire place is ruined because of the Forerunners' incompetence.

The reason I like the story of the Forerunners' fall is because, since the Flood was infecting Forerunners, the Flood used the Forerunners' on hypocrisy and methods against them. The Forerunners' anger, punishment and unlimited might and power became their own worst enemy.

tl;dr: the Mantle is misinterpreted by the Forerunners; it has a benign, deeper meaning to it that the Forerunners, unfortunately, cannot see.

  • 06.17.2011 10:44 AM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: ROBERTO jh
Yeah, I think the Mantle must have been twisted in some way by the Forerunner. They said (I think it was Didact) that to defy the Forerunner is to defy the Mantle itself. That kind of has authoritarian overtones in it. Also, if it really was absolutism then the Precursor should have been expecting bloodshed, which defeats its purpose. So the Mantle might not be a set of Laws like what the Forerunners say it is, that must also be absolutely obeyed.

Although there must be some point at which warfare is stopped. I would imagine that enslavement of an entire species or genocide would be stopped. The Forerunner probably felt the need to confront Humanity over their actions there, although they went too far in the end I think.

But don't you think that there is not supposed to be a single upholder? That kind of opens up the possibility for abuse, which seems to be happening here with the Forerunners. Would the Precursor not foresee this?

it has a benign, deeper meaning to it that the Forerunners, unfortunately, cannot see.
Something to do with Living Time as I was reminded by Assassin's post up there ^. Should be interesting to find out what exactly is so important though.

Side note, didn't Didact say that the Mantle philosophers were speculating on the possibility that the Precursors wanted the Mantle to extend to all the Universe and not just this galaxy?

  • 06.17.2011 11:49 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

Hmm

I think the true mantle might be ironic such as the marker in deadspace.

In deadspace altmon found the black marker and new it was dangerous and wanted to destroy it (which he ended up doing at the cost of his life) afterwards some people saw him as a martyr and thus a new religion was created in his name.

The irony is he didn't want any of that nor would he believe any of it, he just wanted the public to know it was around not to make a religion out of this.

there is a chance the same could be said with the mantle, the forerunners misinterpreting something just like the covenant.

  • 06.17.2011 12:00 PM PDT

"The measure of a man is what he does with power"-Plato

After reading Cryptum I think they way it was described...I can't help to think it's an actual object of some sort.

  • 06.17.2011 12:11 PM PDT


Posted by: anton1792
Posted by: ROBERTO jh
Yeah, I think the Mantle must have been twisted in some way by the Forerunner. They said (I think it was Didact) that to defy the Forerunner is to defy the Mantle itself. That kind of has authoritarian overtones in it. Also, if it really was absolutism then the Precursor should have been expecting bloodshed, which defeats its purpose. So the Mantle might not be a set of Laws like what the Forerunners say it is, that must also be absolutely obeyed.

Although there must be some point at which warfare is stopped. I would imagine that enslavement of an entire species or genocide would be stopped. The Forerunner probably felt the need to confront Humanity over their actions there, although they went too far in the end I think.

But don't you think that there is not supposed to be a single upholder? That kind of opens up the possibility for abuse, which seems to be happening here with the Forerunners. Would the Precursor not foresee this?

it has a benign, deeper meaning to it that the Forerunners, unfortunately, cannot see.
Something to do with Living Time as I was reminded by Assassin's post up there ^. Should be interesting to find out what exactly is so important though.

Side note, didn't Didact say that the Mantle philosophers were speculating on the possibility that the Precursors wanted the Mantle to extend to all the Universe and not just this galaxy?


That was the Forerunners first problem. The Mantle is suppose to extend to the entire universe, not just the galaxy as you said, yet the Forerunners never sought to go beyond their cradle galaxy (which, in retrospect, might have been a good thing for the rest of the universe). The Precursors did, we know that.

But I get the sense that there's something more going on here. For one, when it comes to Halo, their always is, second, why is it all the -blam!- goes down in this one galaxy? Why were the Precursors so especially interested in us?

I know their influence extended beyond us, but their inheritors all inhabit this Milky Way.

And just wtf is the Great Journey? Its obviously a real event, its just that the Covenant interpreted it incorrectly. They thought the Journey happened because of Halo, when the Forerunners left on it after the Halos fired.

It also definitely pertains to the Mantle holders specifically. As humanity holds the Mantle (though we don't know it, I believe Halo 4 will be when we find out, with the Chief possibly being the messege bearer since he was chosen by Medicant Bias to do something as of yet unknown and already kind of is a guardian of the galaxy) we'll more likely learn more about what the Great Journey is, what the Mantle is and just where the two Ancient races went.

We'll have to wait for the Halo trilogy to start and the Cryptum trilogy to continue before we can draw more conclusions.

  • 06.17.2011 2:27 PM PDT


Posted by: ROBERTO jh
In fact, think of it this way.

I've always seen the inheritors of the Mantle to be sort of like the parents or heads of some daycare center.

They watch over and distance themselves from the younger, ignorant races (children), watch them grow, and intervene only to protect them from harm (perhaps saving races from things like a supernova). Didact does mention that the Forerunners deliberately distance themselves to protect the Mantle.

However, as a learning process, proper inheritors will not intervene in the squabbles of these younger races.

Children get into fights for stupid reasons. Perhaps one stole something of personal value from the other. They get into arguments(political battles) and, if that goes no where, fist fights (war).

This is no different in the case of civilizations, just that the fights are more tragic.

As I said, proper inheritors try to intervene as less as possible and act only as guardian angels for the races of the galaxy. Unfortunately, the Forerunners strike me as the teenager who thinks they're ready, but they're not (overthrowing the father's(Precursor's) rule and possibly ruining the older brother's(humanaity's) chances of taking obver the household).

They get involved in the fist fights, believing that pain and punishment will stop the squabbles and due to their vastly superior size and power, severely injure the smaller children.

The Forerunners have a warped interpretation of the Mantle, under the false notion the Mantle demands dictatorship and violent control.

And then, when a seriel killer or other criminal arrives at the household (The Flood) where only the father and the brother would have any idea how to deal with it, but are in no fit state to deal with it or explain it on account of both being driven from the house(Milky Way) by the over-eager younger brother, the entire place is ruined because of the Forerunners' incompetence.

The reason I like the story of the Forerunners' fall is because, since the Flood was infecting Forerunners, the Flood used the Forerunners' on hypocrisy and methods against them. The Forerunners' anger, punishment and unlimited might and power became their own worst enemy.

tl;dr: the Mantle is misinterpreted by the Forerunners; it has a benign, deeper meaning to it that the Forerunners, unfortunately, cannot see.


I think your post is quite profound Roberto, and pretty accurate. I'm sure the Forerunners only scratched the surface of all the Mantel is meant to be. Likewise I'm sure what we actually know of the Mantel now is only just the beginning, what we know is probably completely true, but I'm sure we're not interpreting it entirely the correct way either due to lacking the whole picture.

I think the Mantel is created to ensure the continued existence of life and its protection, I'm sure it was a misinterpretation and colossal error on the Forerunners part to keep the militarization of the other races and species in the know galaxy down, thus leaving them defenseless to the Flood. And likewise I'm sure the Mantel is not something only one species can be stewards of. The way I see it is one race will inherently have greater power at first, and they're to guide other "child" races to reach the same point as themselves and once they have admit them to the ranks of the Mantel's defenders. In the meantime, as you theorized, they would mostly keep out of the affairs of other species and serve as the silent guardians semi-secretely warding off extinction and gently shepherding the other races to maturity.

  • 06.23.2011 10:29 AM PDT

We have never been given insight into the reason for the Mantles existence. This might be covered in the next two books but I am interested in exactly why the Precursor would bother to create it given the amount of problems it would cause in trying to enforce it. This might also show us the nature of the Precursors themselves. The reasoning behind the Mantle could be anything, but regardless I think that the Precursors were either an extremely naive race or a malevolent one.

The Mantle appears to be a philosophy based on pacifism. Any sort of violence is outlawed under it, such as warfare, genocide and even as far down as eating meat. Bornstellar made a remark about Humans eating meat that made it look like a primitive, barbaric act in his view. The Mantle is essentially a way of life. The thing is though is that it seems to be absolutism. Every race in the galaxy (Or the Universe as the Didact hypothesised) is supposed to obey it with no exceptions.

That is the first problem I see. Everyone's culture is different, everyone's morals are different. To expect everyone to share the same world view is foolish. Therefore, there is going to be a lot of resistance to accepting the Mantle as a moral framework. It is easy to visualise this happening. Just go to a person who shares a different belief system from you and attempt to tell them that your beliefs are the correct one. They will not agree. Attempt to force them, and things will get hostile. If the Mantle is a philosophy of peace, then it already fails because installing it across the galaxy will result in massive bloodshed.

Going back to what I said about there being no exceptions, we cannot actually for definite say that this is what the Mantle says must happen. That could be a perversion of the Forerunner's making. However, surely the Precursors would have foreseen this? Absolute power corrupts absolutely, as they say. If they really wanted a single race to uphold the Mantle then they must surely have foreseen the possibility that this race (Or its leaders) could bend the Mantle into something that it is not intended to be for personal gain? Although, it is possible that the Mantle in this respect was intended to be a community effort from every race rather than just the one. This could be another of the Forerunner's perversions of the Mantle. Therefore how they came to be the top dog would be a mystery.

Thinking about these two points, it looks like the Precursors were naive beyond reckoning. The Mantle may be an essential thing (More on that in a bit), or it may just simply be an attempt by the Precursor to foster a benign environment for lesser races to thrive in. Either way, to expect people to discard their beliefs and culture on a whim in acceptance of a foreign and entirely new belief system is unreasonable, as is expecting people not to abuse it when given sole charge if its upholding. (If this is indeed true) The alternative I think to nativity is malevolence. Perhaps the Mantle has no essential purpose. Perhaps they wished to use their mythical status as a way to create a seemingly divine set of laws with the sole intent of watching the carnage that would result in people fighting over it?

The Precursors are said to have seeded various worlds with life throughout the galaxy. This fits into both viewpoints really. They either wanted to create peaceful living environments with their knowledge and act as benevolent creator figures, or essentially create a giant war game for whatever reason. (Entertainment?) If this case of malevolence is correct, might this be a potential reason for the Forerunner rising up and destroying the Precursor?

Third option: The Mantle serves a deeper purpose. The Precursors said that the Universe and Sentience where interconnected in some unfathomable way. If the Mantle is built upon this in some way, then what is so important that it must absolutely be followed, and what happens if it is not? Although going back to the Precursor creating various species thing, if the Mantle was something to be absolutely followed, based on objective reasoning, then would the Precursor be willing to create lifeforms that might potentially be rebellious?

I should also point out that there are alternative speculations that others have thought of. One is that the Mantle is a lie fabricated by the Forerunner. With the Forerunners history being so patchy (E.g. The Precursor war not being remembered) it is possible that the Mantle was a ploy to get all the other races subservient and to elevate the Forerunner to galactic dominance. This origin obviously being forgotten, like the Precursor war. Grey101 can explain this one better, it's his idea. I'm just trying to get speculation going here, if at all possible. (Because there's not much information to go on just now unfortunately)


DO YOU MIND IF NEXT TIME WHEN YOU POST A THREAD THAT CONTAINS SPOILERS TO A NEW BOOK YOU STOP AND THINK THAT SOME PEOPLE MAY NOT HAVE READ THE BOOK YET AND HAVE THE GOOD MANNERS TO PUT (spoilers) IN THE -blam!- TITLE!

[Edited on 06.23.2011 11:04 AM PDT]

  • 06.23.2011 10:56 AM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

The book has been out for 6 months now and you are in the universe forum where people are expected to get stuff day of.

so this is your fault.

  • 06.23.2011 11:17 AM PDT

By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe.


Posted by: MadNinja95
DO YOU MIND IF NEXT TIME WHEN YOU POST A THREAD THAT CONTAINS SPOILERS TO A NEW BOOK YOU STOP AND THINK THAT SOME PEOPLE MAY NOT HAVE READ THE BOOK YET AND HAVE THE GOOD MANNERS TO PUT (spoilers) IN THE -blam!- TITLE!


Snape killed Dumbledore.

You're responsible for spoiler management, the OP is pretty darn long and since Cryptum is about the Forerunners you should have anticipated content from the novel to be here.

Also Cryptum has been out since January, "spoilers" are no concern for the majority of us here.

  • 06.23.2011 11:22 AM PDT


Posted by: II Cipher
After reading Cryptum I think they way it was described...I can't help to think it's an actual object of some sort.


Well in addition to being a philosophy, I think Cryptum makes it obvious that to the Forerunners it's also kind of like what the Bible is for Christians. I'd imagine there is probably at least one written document or something of the sort laying out all the precepts the Forerunners believe to be a part of the Mantel's teachings.

It's too bad that nobody really wants to discuss things in this thread :/

  • 06.23.2011 8:07 PM PDT

Don't worry, you're still your mom's favorite Bnet member.

Perhaps the Precursor were so self indulged they just thought the inheritors would blindly follow them and what they'd left behind?

  • 06.23.2011 8:26 PM PDT