Bungie Universe
This topic has moved here: Subject: Why you don't see MACs in Reach
  • Subject: Why you don't see MACs in Reach
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2
  • of 2
Subject: Why you don't see MACs in Reach

Moderator Notice: This user has been blacklisted from this forum. Until the user is removed from the blacklist, all posts this user has made have been hidden, and all topics created by this user have been censored.
  • 06.21.2011 10:07 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

So the UNSC built an expensive defence system and put almost full faith in it that is, speaking in terms of probability, 50% useless?

I have seen this "explanation" from dozens of people. It answers the "what" but fails miserable in the "why" and "how". Would it really be that difficult to distribute power to different broadcasting stations worldwide?

The SMACs were arranged globally anyway before the Covenant showed up. I will dig up the quote from Caboose's thread and post it when I find it. (Can't be bothered searching the book just now.)

Edit: Something I typed on another site: (The quote I promised you is in it too.)

The problem with the SMACs.

The "Supercarrier" (Should probably be called a Hypercarrier. It is hard to believe that the Covenant possessed hundreds of those things as the First Strike epilogue says...) should have been destroyed. If not when it was in atmosphere, then certainly when it went into low orbit around Reach during the level The Long Night of Solace. Most arguments tend to be for them having all been on one side of the planet, which is the only way you could explain this problem away. Unfortunately, it is a poor explanation.

Firstly, the SMACs were arranged in a defensive net around Reach. Not only is it common sense to do this, but it was also supported by The Fall or Reach. On page 296 of the original (Not sure about the re-releases) it said:

They had one advantage: The MAC orbital guns around Reach -
So before the Covenant arrived on the 30th of August, the SMACs were arranged around Reach. That is their default position when there is no enemy nearby. However, now we know Reach was attacked on July 24th, so before July 24th the SMACs would be arranged in a net around Reach. If we hold to that quote, then the SMACs would be arranged in a net during the events of the game also.

As I said it is common sense to do this. Firstly, given how extremely large space is, there is no way that the UNSC could possibly know which angle the Covenant could approach from. If they actually clustered all of their SMACs above one location permanently, then they will be leaving the rest of the planet defenceless. And it will remain defenceless until the SMACs can all be moved to face the oncoming threat. In that time, the enemy could be deploying dropships to the planets surface, establishing a beachhead and putting the generators in danger. In The Fall of Reach, even with the SMACs there, the Covenant still managed to slip through and get to the generators. Leaving entire sections of the planet with nothing is just begging for a disaster to happen. This is also all regardless of whether the SMACs could move quickly or not. If they cannot, then you will want a defence net so that all sections of the planet can be defended with at least something for a while until the others do arrive. In TFoR, there was 40 minutes between initial detection of the Covenant fleet and the time when the fleet arrived at Reach. If the SMACs have some propulsion systems then they have time to get into the location we see in the book.

In theory, you only need 3 satellites to have full coverage of a planet. In practicality, you need a bit more to cover the poles. Reach had 20 SMACs, so global coverage should not be a problem in the slightest. The SMACs themselves fire the projectile at 12'000km/s, or 0.04c. Reach has a diameter of roughly 15'000km. So it would only take a SMAC round 1.25 seconds to cross the entire diameter of Reach. The "Supercarrier" was quite clearly not orbiting at that distance from the planet so was well within range. The "range" of the SMACs is their effective range, not the distance the round will travel before coming to rest. The projectile still has to cover a distance, so if you see it coming and are far enough away you will be able to dodge it. The projectile will continue on forever in space though, because there is nothing to stop it. A 27 km long ship will not be able to detect and move out of the path of those rounds in less than 1.25 seconds, its engines are probably incapable of the insane impulse required and the ships inertia would rip it in half. Add to this the fact that the SMAC fires every 5 seconds and will be able to lead the ships motion, and the fire from other platforms in view of the ship, there is no way the "Supercarrier" should be dominating the space above Humanity's most secure fortress world.

Reach is a poor fortress world if it clusters all of its defensive power "along one wall", to use an analogy.

I also do not understand where the 100+ ships that are supposed to be in orbit around Reach at any one given moment in time went to. All of Reach's defensive fleets just left for some reason, leaving the planet more vulnerable. If they were there then that is only more firepower to pound that Covenant ship into glittering dust.

Bungie cut corners with this aspect.

[Edited on 06.21.2011 10:31 PM PDT]

  • 06.21.2011 10:17 PM PDT

Bungie missed the memo that Reach was actually the military hub of the UNSC, and made the entire game as if it was a farming colony in the middle of nowhere.

Very convincingly.

  • 06.21.2011 10:41 PM PDT


Posted by: Wazooty
Bungie missed the memo that Reach was actually the military hub of the UNSC, and made the entire game as if it was a farming colony in the middle of nowhere.

Very convincingly.


You missed the memo most of Reach's surface was wilderness.

Also, I believe we can actually pin this fault on... Eric Nylund. He was the one who described the SuperMACs in a tight formation first.

  • 06.21.2011 10:55 PM PDT

"Find where the liar hides, so that I may place my boot between his gums!" - Rtas 'Vadum

Posted by: fxnavarro
Anton 1792 thats is a pretty good point but the only thing I can think of is that maybe the SMACs were placed into position just prior to the first Covenant Fleet arriving. Im only trying to make sense of it without offending my favorite developer (Treyarch lol jk, they suck)
Love Bungie.

I find getting to the bottom of a set of facts more valuable than loyalties to a particular group. I would criticise 343 Industries the same if they screwed something up. Their Encyclopaedia was useless, and the ending of Bloodlines is just plain silly.

There is no reason that I can think of that would explain why the UNSC would perform such actions spontaneously like that.

[Edited on 06.21.2011 11:18 PM PDT]

  • 06.21.2011 11:12 PM PDT

That, somewhat I don't entirely agree with everything you said, and also you can't see them because they're not in visible range. Much like in Halo 2, you can only actively see two-three SMAC stations from the Cairo, yet we know there are 100 something+ ODPS around Earth, you just simply can't see them all because they're out of visible range.

@Anton:
From what was said in the Evolutions story Pariah, it sounded to me like there were lots of ODPs, a great deal more than 20 anyway. 20 would be how many ODPs there were that were built around a SMAC, and to me it would make the most sense to concentrate the SMACs around the areas of highest population and importance while other ODPs would be guarding the rest of the planet.

  • 06.22.2011 7:00 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

SC = Supreme Commander/Supreme Canadian.

De Facto leader of the military of the APE (Allied Planets Empire).

Coup = Admiral Asskicker, ZPM hive ship

Maybe the Super MACs were just wtfpwned by the massive 27km ship?

  • 06.22.2011 7:25 PM PDT


Posted by: SC Matt Klassen
Maybe the Super MACs were just wtfpwned by the massive 27km ship?


Whatever ODPs were in the direct area of the Super Carrier would have been, but the SMACs were all in one group together in orbit above their generators and covering the more important areas of Reach, the ODP generators, Castle Base, possibly New Alexandria, and other important areas. And the area the SMACs covered wasn't really anywhere near the Super Carrier.

[Edited on 06.23.2011 9:20 AM PDT]

  • 06.23.2011 9:19 AM PDT

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: Wazooty
Bungie missed the memo that Reach was actually the military hub of the UNSC, and made the entire game as if it was a farming colony in the middle of nowhere.

Very convincingly.


You missed the memo most of Reach's surface was wilderness.

Also, I believe we can actually pin this fault on... Eric Nylund. He was the one who described the SuperMACs in a tight formation first.


Reach was an industrial and military hub for the UNSC. Second only to Earth. Most of Reach's surface should have been highways, tarmacs, warehouse, fuel refineries, scrap metal processing plants, bombing ranges, and marine boot camps.

Yet most of the campaign was just rural areas and poorly designed mining facilities.

[Edited on 06.23.2011 9:37 AM PDT]

  • 06.23.2011 9:34 AM PDT

I always thought it was because since space is an incredibly large you wouldn't be able to see them or make them out. They wouldn't put them all in a small distance right?

  • 06.23.2011 9:54 AM PDT

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."


Posted by: bat out of h3ll
Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: Wazooty
Bungie missed the memo that Reach was actually the military hub of the UNSC, and made the entire game as if it was a farming colony in the middle of nowhere.

Very convincingly.


You missed the memo most of Reach's surface was wilderness.

Also, I believe we can actually pin this fault on... Eric Nylund. He was the one who described the SuperMACs in a tight formation first.


Reach was an industrial and military hub for the UNSC. Second only to Earth. Most of Reach's surface should have been highways, tarmacs, warehouse, fuel refineries, scrap metal processing plants, bombing ranges, and marine boot camps.

Yet most of the campaign was just rural areas and poorly designed mining facilities.


And yet, the Spartan II's were trained in a natural preserve in the book, what a coincidence, right?

  • 06.23.2011 11:38 AM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: SC Matt Klassen
Maybe the Super MACs were just wtfpwned by the massive 27km ship?


Whatever ODPs were in the direct area of the Super Carrier would have been, but the SMACs were all in one group together in orbit above their generators and covering the more important areas of Reach, the ODP generators, Castle Base, possibly New Alexandria, and other important areas. And the area the SMACs covered wasn't really anywhere near the Super Carrier.


what book was it that said all the SMACs were in one place? becuase i just read reach from the start of the battle to the end and i didn't see that.

Also in reach the SMACs are the only thing that is brought up nothing on ODP

  • 06.23.2011 11:44 AM PDT

Adepto In Meus Campester
Posted by: ParagonRenegade
You were totally and absolutely correct in every way, I don't know why we were arguing, you're so amazing I should never have doubted you.

Posted by: Wazooty
Bungie missed the memo that Reach was actually the military hub of the UNSC, and made the entire game as if it was a farming colony in the middle of nowhere.

Very convincingly.


Posted by: grey101
what book was it that said all the SMACs were in one place? becuase i just read reach from the start of the battle to the end and i didn't see that.

Also in reach the SMACs are the only thing that is brought up nothing on ODP
MACs are ship-mounted, SMACs (Super MAC) are basically the massive MACs that Orbital Defense Platforms are built to support and maintain. They're one and the same, basically. You are correct though, unless the UNSC is absolutely retarded they wouldn't cluster all their ODPs on one side of the planet and leave the rest of it completely undefended.

Posted by: RKOSNAKE
And yet, the Spartan II's were trained in a natural preserve in the book, what a coincidence, right?
This is a really good point right here.

[Edited on 06.23.2011 12:39 PM PDT]

  • 06.23.2011 12:37 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

slade why did you quote me and then tell me information i have long known?

  • 06.23.2011 12:45 PM PDT

Adepto In Meus Campester
Posted by: ParagonRenegade
You were totally and absolutely correct in every way, I don't know why we were arguing, you're so amazing I should never have doubted you.

Posted by: grey101
slade why did you quote me and then tell me information i have long known?
Your post "Also in reach the SMACs are the only thing that is brought up nothing on ODP" made me think you didn't know that ODPs are basically the same thing as SMACs.

  • 06.23.2011 12:55 PM PDT

On Waypoint I'm rocketFox;
http://halo.xbox.com/forums/members/rocketfox/default.aspx

Old GTs; RebelRobot, Flamedude

The whole "It felt like a farming colony" argument is..... spot on. I was disappointed at the lack of military presence throughout the game, in fact it reminded me of Mombasa in Halo 2 with the apparent lack of interest by the UNSC in the invasion.

"Send in 20 soldiers, that'll do it."

As for Halo Reach there is just way too much source material ignored or missing, we were all bound to feel this gulf. No defense fleet, no Super MACs, little military presence.

[Edited on 06.23.2011 1:07 PM PDT]

  • 06.23.2011 1:07 PM PDT
  • gamertag: [none]
  • user homepage:

Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Lord Slade
Posted by: grey101
slade why did you quote me and then tell me information i have long known?
Your post "Also in reach the SMACs are the only thing that is brought up nothing on ODP" made me think you didn't know that ODPs are basically the same thing as SMACs.


that is conjecture until we can that cleared up officially.

  • 06.23.2011 1:20 PM PDT


Posted by: Wazooty
Bungie missed the memo that Reach was actually the military hub of the UNSC, and made the entire game as if it was a farming colony in the middle of nowhere.

Very convincingly.


exactly!

  • 06.23.2011 7:49 PM PDT


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: SC Matt Klassen
Maybe the Super MACs were just wtfpwned by the massive 27km ship?


Whatever ODPs were in the direct area of the Super Carrier would have been, but the SMACs were all in one group together in orbit above their generators and covering the more important areas of Reach, the ODP generators, Castle Base, possibly New Alexandria, and other important areas. And the area the SMACs covered wasn't really anywhere near the Super Carrier.


what book was it that said all the SMACs were in one place? becuase i just read reach from the start of the battle to the end and i didn't see that.

Also in reach the SMACs are the only thing that is brought up nothing on ODP


I'm pretty sure it's in TFoR, I can't tell you where because I don't have the book :/ But someone has posted a quote in one of the more recent hot-topics regarding the issues between Reach and TFoR (I think it was DaeFaron...or maybe it was Anton >_> I know it was one of those two).

I'm pretty sure there are different types of ODPs, the SMACs themselves would be considered ODPs. Anyway, the line in Pariah where Soren was worrying about getting past the orbital defenses made me think that there were ODPs spaced out all over Reach's orbit. Whether the SMACs were spaced out or not I can't say, I just no that by the time of the 30th they were in the same area which was in orbit above the Generator Complex and the area around CASTLE Base.

  • 06.23.2011 7:54 PM PDT

You know you play Halo too much when you hock a lugie in you girlfriends face and scream "BOOM HEADSHOT!" ;)

Hey guys, not a whole lot to add here, but just a thought as to what happened in the invasion, here is a quote from the Halo Wiki:

The battle was a disaster for the numerically-inferior UNSC fleet, despite the Super MAC Guns, resulting in the planet's destruction by means of plasma bombardment

EDIT: Found another interesting tidbit. We know that by the time Noble team discovers the large Covenant forces on Reach, there were plenty more of those landing parties around the planet. Here is another quote from the wiki as to the SMAC's and ODP's

Orbiting around Reach were a semi-mobile array of twenty Orbital Defense Platforms (ODP), equipped with heavy MAC Guns also known as "big sticks," some of which were in place as early as 2527. They were in turn defended by multiple wings of single ships and tactical multi-role craft. In addition, there were also about 100 to 150 warships stationed in the Epsilon Eridani System at any time. The ODPs were destroyed during the invasion of Reach, or were disabled by ground troops by destroying their power source. Despite their huge numbers, the fleet of warships was destroyed by an even larger Covenant fleet.

[Edited on 06.23.2011 8:43 PM PDT]

  • 06.23.2011 8:40 PM PDT

I suspect llamas are secretly wizards. I <3 poptarts n' milk. I like me. Grimick is defined as: a logical parodox, the act of funnaling a potato down your throat, and a deliciously flavored muffin (with pecons and blueberries). Norway is the Swedish word for 'moron'. My sister has cancer, so i get to use handicap parking and cut small children in line at Disneyland.

"Don't eat doughnuts on thin ice."

"The pancake, my friend, has officially been flipped."

No backup generators? So sad.

  • 06.23.2011 8:51 PM PDT

Considering the only ships that we saw were three frigates and a cruiser...

  • 06.23.2011 11:19 PM PDT

Ok, play the level lng night of solace from the space battle checkpoint again. Am i seriously the only one who can see the SMAC wreckage in orbit in the distance which was deliberately put into the skybox by bungie?

  • 06.24.2011 2:24 AM PDT

Sharpshooter975

There wasnt a mcdonalds around.

  • 06.24.2011 3:06 AM PDT

  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2
  • of 2