Halo 1 & 2 for PC
This topic has moved here: Subject: The Ultimate Reasons Why Halo 1 > Halo 2 In Terms of Skill Required
  • Subject: The Ultimate Reasons Why Halo 1 > Halo 2 In Terms of Skill Required
Subject: The Ultimate Reasons Why Halo 1 > Halo 2 In Terms of Skill Required

Posted by: DusK


In Halo 2, that was changed for the worse. The lack of a powerful-yet-skill-based starting weapon, and a focus on the ridiculous "power weapon" concept, rewards bad players by allowing them to run across these weapons during the game and easily kills players that are significantly more skilled than they are. It allows bad players to beat good players. If you think that should ever happen in competitive FPS, you need a lobotomy.

:(


You have to admit that it was a good business move.
bad people losing=bad people discouraged=bad people not buying the game. I must say that I played Team fortress 2 once, then got bored from dieing and went back to Gears and Halo.

  • 06.23.2011 9:12 PM PDT

Halo 3

So in the end you decide to counter my whole argument (scratch the maps part), once again, by saying what you love to say: Halo 2 just plain takes no skill. I guess I failed to make a comedic entrance, which is a success on my part after all.

  • 06.23.2011 9:23 PM PDT
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Yeah. That's right. I don't have a 50 in H3. I never got Onyx in Reach. If a game sucks too much, I won't even bother trying for such trivial "accolades". Besides, I've done way more things that take far more skill and talent than anything that can be done in a video game.

Posted by: awinnik1
Posted by: DusK


In Halo 2, that was changed for the worse. The lack of a powerful-yet-skill-based starting weapon, and a focus on the ridiculous "power weapon" concept, rewards bad players by allowing them to run across these weapons during the game and easily kills players that are significantly more skilled than they are. It allows bad players to beat good players. If you think that should ever happen in competitive FPS, you need a lobotomy.

:(


You have to admit that it was a good business move.
bad people losing=bad people discouraged=bad people not buying the game. I must say that I played Team fortress 2 once, then got bored from dieing and went back to Gears and Halo.

And thus the marketing strategy of catering to those who are bad at FPS saw great success, and the golden age of FPS came to an abrupt close.

Posted by: Ben2974
So in the end you decide to counter my whole argument (scratch the maps part), once again, by saying what you love to say: Halo 2 just plain takes no skill. I guess I failed to make a comedic entrance, which is a success on my part after all.

Of course I said that Halo 2 takes no skill. Unlike you, I don't lie.

[Edited on 06.23.2011 9:33 PM PDT]

  • 06.23.2011 9:32 PM PDT

Halo 3


Posted by: Ben2974
So in the end you decide to counter my whole argument (scratch the maps part), once again, by saying what you love to say: Halo 2 just plain takes no skill. I guess I failed to make a comedic entrance, which is a success on my part after all.

Of course I said that Halo 2 takes no skill. Unlike you, I don't lie.

No, camping does not give you a win. Halo 2 takes skill. You don't have enough experience with halo 2 (or 3 for that matter) if you still manage to say this and believe that campers dominate. They get blown over every match. They're easy, for me

[Edited on 06.23.2011 9:39 PM PDT]

  • 06.23.2011 9:36 PM PDT

Posted by: DusK

And thus the marketing strategy of catering to those who are bad at FPS saw great success, and the golden age of FPS came to an abrupt close.

.


it's not that i suck at FPS, it's just that i don't have the same reflexes as some of these fast-paced games require and i need a little something to keep it fun for me.

  • 06.23.2011 9:38 PM PDT

Halo 3


Posted by: awinnik1
Posted by: DusK

And thus the marketing strategy of catering to those who are bad at FPS saw great success, and the golden age of FPS came to an abrupt close.

.


it's not that i suck at FPS, it's just that i don't have the same reflexes as some of these fast-paced games require and i need a little something to keep it fun for me.


Actually a key component of Halo 2 and 3 is fast reflex. Since there is some aim assist, you have a better chance of finishing him/her off before he/she finishes you off if you have your reticle on him/her first. lol

  • 06.23.2011 9:42 PM PDT

you don't really feel it in halo 3 and you can still miss easy...

  • 06.23.2011 9:46 PM PDT

Halo 3

Bottom line is that the skill gap in Halo 2 is smaller than that of Halo 1. This means that that the #, in ratio, of people that are super terrible in Halo 2 is smaller than that of the # of people that are super terrible in Halo 1. The majority of the H2V players are spread from mediocre to godly. In Halo 1, you have a load of people that are super terrible, people that are mediocre, and then the people that are godly. But don't let that cloud your judgement of which one takes more skill to play and become godly at, because every one in halo2 now has the "upper hand" with a little aim assist. It's just as hard to become godly in Halo 2 as it is in any other game because the set standards of a "godly" player in Halo 2 are MUCH higher than in Halo 1.

  • 06.23.2011 9:52 PM PDT

Halo 3

Damn I tried to make it as straight-forward as possible, but I guess a phrase could be "steepness vs length"


I'll try a crappy illustration
___________________________________________


Halo 1 pure skill bar

|----------|

If you're on the farthest to the right of this bar, then you are the best player in the world. If you are on the farthest to the left of the bar, then you are the worst player in the world.

Halo 2 pure skill bar

|------------------------|

Notice how there's much more "bar skill" to achieve on this bar. That's because the first few bits of dashes have already been gained because of the little aim assist that Halo 2 gives you. So you start with that, but then you must acquire as much "bar skill" as Halo 1's.

In order to be a legendary player, you have to have SO MUCH more than just the ability to aim your reticle on the player. Get it?.... where-as in Halo 1, if you have spot-on aim, you've already gotten 3/4 of the skill you need in order to be a legendary player.

So again, the skill gap is smaller in H2 because of the aim assist, but the skill in the game is equivalent to that of Halo 1....or any other fps.

  • 06.23.2011 10:17 PM PDT
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Yeah. That's right. I don't have a 50 in H3. I never got Onyx in Reach. If a game sucks too much, I won't even bother trying for such trivial "accolades". Besides, I've done way more things that take far more skill and talent than anything that can be done in a video game.

Jesus Christ, dude. A child could figure this out. A freakin' elementary school student would have had this concept down when I first started explaining it to you. How is it so hard for you to grasp?

Here it is in its simplest terms:

Camping in Halo 2 and beyond doesn't have to be done intelligently. Sitting at one of any of the abundant choke points with ANY power weapon in the game can yield an easy win even against significantly better opponents.

That's the bottom line. If you can't figure it out after that, you're by far one of the stupidest FPS players to ever grab a mouse, and there's no point arguing such an obvious point any further.

As for your "godly in Halo 2" comment, I lol'd. If you put any MLG "pro" in a TF2 or CSS pub, they'd get spanked. Not by good players either; by the casuals. The weekend warriors. The likes of those H2 "pros" are actually not good at FPS at all. H2 players' standards are set way low, whether it be the people they idolize or the games they play. The highest rung on the shortest ladder.

  • 06.23.2011 10:22 PM PDT

Halo 3

It's so hard to grasp because you can't grasp it. This little paragraph

Posted by: DusK
Camping in Halo 2 and beyond doesn't have to be done intelligently. Sitting at one of any of the abundant choke points with ANY power weapon in the game can yield an easy win even against significantly better opponents.


is just wrong. Simply, wrong. Can you grasp that? Apparently not. Let me say it again: Skill exists in Halo 2. Those campers have minimal skill and CAN EASILY be beaten by a any competent team or individual (after all Halo is known for it's "Rambo" style of killing carnage). Reread what I typed, including the "legendary player" part. It makes a whole lot of sense!

I mean it's crazy. It's as if you've only had access to one match and it was a match where you got wrecked by campers and thought that every match would be like that for the rest of Halo 2's years. What are you insane?

  • 06.23.2011 10:39 PM PDT
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Yeah. That's right. I don't have a 50 in H3. I never got Onyx in Reach. If a game sucks too much, I won't even bother trying for such trivial "accolades". Besides, I've done way more things that take far more skill and talent than anything that can be done in a video game.

Lockout. Grab sword. Sit in a corner. Win.

The Pit. Grab a sword. Wander around the sword room area killing people with the absurd lunge. Win.

Sword Base. Grab a sword or shottie and sit at the top of the elevator. Win.

Post-CE Halo sure takes a lot of skill, doesn't it? Yeah, you're an idiot.

[Edited on 06.23.2011 10:43 PM PDT]

  • 06.23.2011 10:43 PM PDT

Something smells fishy...

I've never been able to play H2V online multiplayer to say much about whether or not there is genuine skill or not. You know why I haven't played H2V online? I get major performance issues even though my PC well surpasses the system requirements for H2V.

I might be insane, but I feel there's a greater probability for skilled players to be playing online in Halo CE PC than H2V because the Halo CE population is larger than the H2V population. Essentially Halo CE PC has a higher probability of skill simply because there's a larger population of players. So the likelihood of encountering skilled players online in Halo CE PC is higher than that of H2V. It's all just a hypothesis.

  • 06.23.2011 10:51 PM PDT

Halo 3


Posted by: DusK
Lockout. Grab sword. Sit in a corner. Win.

The Pit. Grab a sword. Wander around the sword room area killing people with the absurd lunge. Win.

Sword Base. Grab a sword or shottie and sit at the top of the elevator. Win.

Post-CE Halo sure takes a lot of skill, doesn't it? Yeah, you're an idiot.


I hope you realize that if you believe what you're saying right now then you haven't learned to take advantage of the aim assist, which makes you the guy on the farthest to the left of my little illustration.

I really just don't know what else to say other than saying that you will most surely NOT win if you do what you described above.

Ok maybe back when the game was fresh and everyone was getting the hang of it, or if you're simply in a room with a bunch of newbies, then sure why not. But like I said earlier with the skill bar, you'll never win vs players that are at least 3/4 up on that Halo 2 Skill bar! Remember what I said: Skill gap in Halo 2 is smaller, so you'll have a better chance of finding people that you can beat by camping, but that doesn't defeat the fact that there are still those players that will completely stomp you if you try to camp in any way.

God I love my little illustration haha

[Edited on 06.23.2011 11:01 PM PDT]

  • 06.23.2011 10:54 PM PDT

Halo 3


Posted by: Barnacle_Blast
I've never been able to play H2V online multiplayer to say much about whether or not there is genuine skill or not. You know why I haven't played H2V online? I get major performance issues even though my PC well surpasses the system requirements for H2V.

I might be insane, but I feel there's a greater probability for skilled players to be playing online in Halo CE PC than H2V because the Halo CE population is larger than the H2V population. Essentially Halo CE PC has a higher probability of skill simply because there's a larger population of players. So the likelihood of encountering skilled players online in Halo CE PC is higher than that of H2V. It's all just a hypothesis.


If you haven't already, read what I wrote about skill gap vs gaming skill in my posts up above- it has a little illustration too :D

  • 06.23.2011 10:56 PM PDT
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Yeah. That's right. I don't have a 50 in H3. I never got Onyx in Reach. If a game sucks too much, I won't even bother trying for such trivial "accolades". Besides, I've done way more things that take far more skill and talent than anything that can be done in a video game.

Anyone else find it funny that a guy who sucks at FPS is trying to explain gaming skill to the rest of us? It's like a Baptist trying to explain evolution.

If I'm the farthest from the left of your illustration, yet you couldn't kill me at all during our 1v1, does that mean you jumped off the left side completely?

  • 06.23.2011 11:06 PM PDT

Something smells fishy...


Posted by: Ben2974

Posted by: Barnacle_Blast
I've never been able to play H2V online multiplayer to say much about whether or not there is genuine skill or not. You know why I haven't played H2V online? I get major performance issues even though my PC well surpasses the system requirements for H2V.

I might be insane, but I feel there's a greater probability for skilled players to be playing online in Halo CE PC than H2V because the Halo CE population is larger than the H2V population. Essentially Halo CE PC has a higher probability of skill simply because there's a larger population of players. So the likelihood of encountering skilled players online in Halo CE PC is higher than that of H2V. It's all just a hypothesis.


If you haven't already, read what I wrote about skill gap vs gaming skill in my posts up above- it has a little illustration too :D

Isn't it more difficult to play a Halo game without a handicap such as aim assist? By your logic an H2V player who has achieved an average skill level is even better due to an additional a handicap. So let's say I engage in a game of 1v1 basketball with a player who has about equal skill as I do. My opponent decides to give me a 5 point handicap lead because he's cocky. At the end of the game we both make the same amount of baskets yet I win. I won because I had a 5 point advantage given to me at the start. We both agreed on allowing me to start with a 5 point lead so it wasn't unfair but it still was an advantage. That advantage was given not earned.

  • 06.23.2011 11:10 PM PDT

Halo 3

Remember what I said, though: In Halo 1 you have to first acquire target aiming before you get anywhere near good. That's why the skill gap is huge in Halo 1. Spot-on aiming is a MASSIVE factor in Halo 1 because there aren't too many other variables that affect your gameplay skills. For example the majority of the maps are empty in CE! You spawn and see your opponent (exaggeration). So what do you do? Aim and shoot- otherwise you're out for the count.


So anyways, If you have trouble with aiming in Halo 1, you're down to the last rung on that ladder (like I was/am when I duel(ed) you).

In Halo 2 you start off on, let's say, the 3rd rung on the ladder (not in respect to my illustration above), because aim assist is there for you to....help you aim! But So now you have 5 more extra rungs (for example) to climb before you are a master at Halo 2. Those include, for example, how to use the cramped maps to your advantage or get the next weapon respawn, I don't know off the top of my head but that's just a mediocre example.


Note: I referred to you and your position on the skill bar for Halo 2 and not Halo 1. If you can't make use of the aim assist then you're way down there, dude.

Oh yeah I was flippin through the pages of this thread and saw what I said earlier. Reflex is one of the many to add to those rungs of greatness :D

[Edited on 06.23.2011 11:40 PM PDT]

  • 06.23.2011 11:20 PM PDT

Halo 3


Isn't it more difficult to play a Halo game without a handicap such as aim assist? By your logic an H2V player who has achieved an average skill level is even better due to an additional a handicap. So let's say I engage in a game of 1v1 basketball with a player who has about equal skill as I do. My opponent decides to give me a 5 point handicap lead because he's cocky. At the end of the game we both make the same amount of baskets yet I win. I won because I had a 5 point advantage given to me at the start. We both agreed on allowing me to start with a 5 point lead so it wasn't unfair but it still was an advantage. That advantage was given not earned.

Yes it is more difficult, but we aren't comparing (at least I am not) the skills of someone playing haloCE and someone playing H2V. They'd beat each other at their own game is kind of what i'm trying to say... or at least that's another point I'm making. Also, I want to note that this discussion has turned into one about Halo 1 vs Halo 2 in terms of skill, not Halo 1 vs Halo 2 Vista. So there are no "crutches" involved in this dilemma.

  • 06.23.2011 11:28 PM PDT

Bring Back Rocket Race!!!

Actually Halo 2's population before Xbox Live was shutdown was actually almost 10,000. Halo 3 and Halo: Reach have far greater populations. But I assume you're just talking about the PC versions of Halo. So point taken.

Also, if you think camping in Halo 2 was bad, you should really try Halo: Reach. Oh my gosh, don't even get me started on Halo: Reach... All that armor locking and active camo spammers. It's a halo player's worst nightmare. Play some Halo: Reach and you'll suddenly find Halo 2's multiplayer to be very attractive to your tastes.

  • 06.24.2011 12:30 AM PDT
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Yeah. That's right. I don't have a 50 in H3. I never got Onyx in Reach. If a game sucks too much, I won't even bother trying for such trivial "accolades". Besides, I've done way more things that take far more skill and talent than anything that can be done in a video game.

Posted by: Ben2974
Remember what I said, though: In Halo 1 you have to first acquire target aiming before you get anywhere near good. That's why the skill gap is huge in Halo 1. Spot-on aiming is a MASSIVE factor in Halo 1 because there aren't too many other variables that affect your gameplay skills. For example the majority of the maps are empty in CE! You spawn and see your opponent (exaggeration). So what do you do? Aim and shoot- otherwise you're out for the count.

Oh look, he's trying to pretend he knows how to play HCE again.

No. If it was that simple, I wouldn't play it.

Posted by: Ben2974
In Halo 2 you start off on, let's say, the 3rd rung on the ladder (not in respect to my illustration above), because aim assist is there for you to....help you aim! But So now you have 5 more extra rungs (for example) to climb before you are a master at Halo 2. Those include, for example, how to use the cramped maps to your advantage or get the next weapon respawn, I don't know off the top of my head but that's just a mediocre example.

You just admitted in this paragraph that cheap noob tricks and cowardice trump actual FPS skill in Halo 2. Which is exactly the point I made in my first post. Good job, glad we can agree. Now stop calling it skill, and we'll be all set.

Posted by: Ben2974
Note: I referred to you and your position on the skill bar for Halo 2 and not Halo 1. If you can't make use of the aim assist then you're way down there, dude.

I was stomping level 30+'s after two games of H2X. I'm hardly on the left of any absurd skill bar you could come up with.

  • 06.24.2011 12:43 AM PDT

Posted by: HiredN00bs
Arrogant hyperbolic exclamations of woe? Seems like a normal day for Halo/Bungie.net.

Let's put it this way:

CE skill gap:

Mexican on HPC |--------------------------------------------| Walshy

H2 skill gap:

Mexican on XBC |---------------| Walshy

There are no two ways about this.

BTW, DusK, I hope that the BS you posted about maps wasn't serious. Sword is near-useless on the Pit if you don't play against thumbless retards.

  • 06.24.2011 2:43 AM PDT

Halo 3


Posted by: DusK
Posted by: Ben2974
Remember what I said, though: In Halo 1 you have to first acquire target aiming before you get anywhere near good. That's why the skill gap is huge in Halo 1. Spot-on aiming is a MASSIVE factor in Halo 1 because there aren't too many other variables that affect your gameplay skills. For example the majority of the maps are empty in CE! You spawn and see your opponent (exaggeration). So what do you do? Aim and shoot- otherwise you're out for the count.

Oh look, he's trying to pretend he knows how to play HCE again.

No. If it was that simple, I wouldn't play it.

Posted by: Ben2974
In Halo 2 you start off on, let's say, the 3rd rung on the ladder (not in respect to my illustration above), because aim assist is there for you to....help you aim! But So now you have 5 more extra rungs (for example) to climb before you are a master at Halo 2. Those include, for example, how to use the cramped maps to your advantage or get the next weapon respawn, I don't know off the top of my head but that's just a mediocre example.

You just admitted in this paragraph that cheap noob tricks and cowardice trump actual FPS skill in Halo 2. Which is exactly the point I made in my first post. Good job, glad we can agree. Now stop calling it skill, and we'll be all set.

Posted by: Ben2974
Note: I referred to you and your position on the skill bar for Halo 2 and not Halo 1. If you can't make use of the aim assist then you're way down there, dude.

I was stomping level 30+'s after two games of H2X. I'm hardly on the left of any absurd skill bar you could come up with.


Note: Halo 1 is the simplest of the Halos. Obviously aiming/hitting constantly isn't the only thing there is to worry about, but it certainly is, by far, the biggest thing to worry about when it comes to being a pro. (My hypothetical percentage for aim/hit in Halo 1 is ~3/4 of the game's skill, the last 25% is some other minor stuff) The game is so simple that it's hard. :D

I've only reinforced my points using your examples such as the maps. And that was just one example! Yeah, there are a few other things that help determine the expertise of a player in Halo 1, but even like you (I think) and Dr Syx said, in Halo 1 you can focus a lot of the fighting on yourself and not have to worry about your teammates pulling you down. If you can nail the targeting in Halo 1, then like I said, you're already 3/4's (hypothetical percentage) of the way there to becoming a "legendary" player.

And no I did not admit that cheap noob tricks/camping dominate the battlefield. You just took the "cramped" idea in my explanation and identified it solely as a means to hide. That's what the dude with mediocre skill would do. There are loads of ways to manipulate the fights with Halo 2's maps like taking cover behind a rock or popping your head back and forth out to get a snipe shot out. And remember, the skill gap is smaller compared to Halo 1, so you'll find it easier to mess with players because most of them are...average. But ..agaaiiinn, there are those who have mastered those 5 extra rungs on the ladder, who will then be able to destroy those campers that are stuck on, let's say, the 4th rung (4/8 rungs, 1-3 for aim assist, + 5 extra rungs to master = 8).

Plus, I never said camping was a skill.

I was stomping level 30+'s after two games of H2X. I'm hardly on the left of any absurd skill bar you could come up with.
So you get owned by campers? That means you suck. You might not be a bad player, but you're most likely in the middle.

[Edited on 06.24.2011 8:48 AM PDT]

  • 06.24.2011 8:28 AM PDT

Halo 3


Posted by: Method Man NYC
Let's put it this way:

CE skill gap:

Mexican on HPC |--------------------------------------------| Walshy

H2 skill gap:

Mexican on XBC |---------------| Walshy

There are no two ways about this.

BTW, DusK, I hope that the BS you posted about maps wasn't serious. Sword is near-useless on the Pit if you don't play against thumbless retards.


Yeah there are many ways to make the little graphs.


In this one it's describing the skill gap in both games. Both reach 100%, meaning the best player is on the far right. Thing is that the skill gap in H1 is larger compared to H2s. Since it's so hard to aim and hit in Halo 1, there's a huge player base hanging at, let's say, 1-20% skill range because they simply cannot kill.

  • 06.24.2011 8:37 AM PDT