Halo 1 & 2 for PC
This topic has moved here: Subject: The Ultimate Reasons Why Halo 1 > Halo 2 In Terms of Skill Required
  • Subject: The Ultimate Reasons Why Halo 1 > Halo 2 In Terms of Skill Required
Subject: The Ultimate Reasons Why Halo 1 > Halo 2 In Terms of Skill Required


Posted by: Ben2974
"Problem is, in H2 and above, aiming in your opponent's general direction is all you need to do to land a hit. Pinpoint aiming isn't necessary thanks to the auto-aim."

Even if that were true (which it's not. Aiming somewhere near the target is easier in h2, but keeping it on the person still requires skill), that's not the argument at hand here. The point is that no matter the size of the map, you'll get your cross-hair in the general area of the opponent.


"But you'd need a wider area than many of the areas in Lockout offer to strafe effectively. Take that out, and you have massive mobility restriction. As a result, corridors become deathtraps, and bad players can watch them and wait for someone to pop out."

Corridors only become death traps because you walk into them. The ability to strafe is futile at this point anyways. That's why it's not always about your precision weapon. If you decide to walk into those tiny corridors, take out a better-suited weapon and/or throw a couple grenades before entering.

"That's my point. You're essentially allowing bad players an advantage over good players given circumstance. At this point, it stops being about shooting and starts being about hide and seek. Anybody can do hide and seek."

That's why the skill gap in H2 is small, because it's easy to take advantage of the places in the case for many player. But, I have to stress this man: Skill gap =/= skill. One may be able to take advantage of the hiding spots, but with all the choices a skilled player can make, it would only make it easier for him to defeat the camper because the skilled player would know how to take advantage of the camper. Think about it. You don't even have to play hide and seek. If the noob decides to stay there and wait, then let him be. While they do that, just go around the map, cautiously, and pick up whatever you need along the way such as power weapons, power ups, grenades, anything you might want to help secure a win. And besides, the more experience one has with campers, the easier it will be for one to suspect where one would hide; after all, there are only so many places that one can hide successfully.

"Your explanation is so fundamentally flawed I could write a post as elaborate as that little essay I wrote about H2 not taking any skill to being with. How about it, Ben; Would you like a detailed post about your entire misconception of FPS skill?"

Wasn't it you that helped fortify my point that there is more to an fps than just being able to aim and hit an opponent? Yes, it was you, who pointed out ~6 other things that were required to help solidify one's gaming skills in order to be on top. Simply put (like I have said previously in this thread), Halo 2 requires a little less of the ability to "aim and hit" than Halo 1, but more of the other things. So therefore the skill gap is not defined by one's ability to hit dead-on every single shot, but it is all the other things that help generate the skill gap in Halo 2. All of those "other things" help determine whether or not the player will be able to overcome the "campers" and "mass mediocre skill" in the H2 population.

"At this point you contradicted yourself. You claimed that waiting for weapon respawns was a skill, then in this post, you said it's not. Which is it?

Not only that, but bad players who get power weapons do beat players that have more skill. If a weapon provides a one-shot kill with absolutely no aiming necessary whatsover, that weapon will allow you to beat a better player holding a weapon that requires not only aim, but more shots to kill. That's called weapon imbalance, and weapon imbalance reduces the skill necessary to take out your opponents."

I really hope I didn't say that waiting for weapon respawns is a skill. I believe I said that the ability to keep in control of the spawning, making sure that your opponent does not get them, is a required skill to separate you from the rest of the players. What's one way to do this? Map control.



My conclusion: Since being able to aim and hit isn't as big a goal as it is/was in H1 and most other fps, it's the player's primary goal in Halo2+ to become better than others at the sub-primaries, or secondary skills.


Didn't you say you were going to ignore Dusk a few pages ago or something?

  • 07.10.2011 2:01 PM PDT

Halo 3


Homing missiles for vehicles balances vehicles out even more.
The sword can't beat you when you're using a mid+ ranged weapon.
No, the sniper will hit the player if you're a yard off in Halo 1.
A hammer that can kill many up close at melee range.


This is an example of an overpowered weapon in the Halo series:

A one-handed weapon that destroy vehicles in one clip. A pistol that has a scope. A one-handed semi-automatic that can kill an opponent in 3 hits. A weapon unrivaled at almost any distance.
That's the pistol in H1

I had fun, though. Here's my final thought for you regarding the debate process:
____________________________________________________________

What good will it do if you choose not to recognize my evaluations of the situation at hand?



[Edited on 07.10.2011 2:28 PM PDT]

  • 07.10.2011 2:26 PM PDT

Halo 3

Didn't you say you were going to ignore Dusk a few pages ago or something?


This is what I said, in this thread

Just going to say from this point on that I believe this thread and maybe a few earlier ones pretty much sum up what I believe needs to be heard regarding the few "discontent users" on this board. I'm going to quit replying to the hate cuz it's getting nobody anywhere and this forum isn't advancing no thanks to all this arguing each time people post about H2V. Dusk, Jacob, or any of the remaining few that are unhappy with what I or anyone else have to say, go ahead and let off some steam with some "evidence", or any other crap you feel needs to be said. The dozen people left on this forum will enjoy the reads, I guess.

However, I will continue to provide conversations to help with anything i'm capable of (when needed).

Have fun.

  • 07.10.2011 2:43 PM PDT


Posted by: Ben2974

Homing missiles for vehicles balances vehicles out even more.
The sword can't beat you when you're using a mid+ ranged weapon.
No, the sniper will hit the player if you're a yard off in Halo 1.
A hammer that can kill many up close at melee range.


This is an example of an overpowered weapon in the Halo series:

A one-handed weapon that destroy vehicles in one clip. A pistol that has a scope. A one-handed semi-automatic that can kill an opponent in 3 hits. A weapon unrivaled at almost any distance.
That's the pistol in H1

I had fun, though. Here's my final thought for you regarding the debate process:
____________________________________________________________

What good will it do if you choose not to recognize my evaluations of the situation at hand?



The pistol isn't that great at long range.

  • 07.10.2011 3:08 PM PDT

Daodan Latency at 65%

Not if you are talking cross-map distances. it is fairly good if you know how to use it properly. Pity that almost nobody knows how to anymore.

  • 07.10.2011 3:27 PM PDT
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Halo 1&2 PC forum's resident OC ReMixer. Like rockified and metalized video game music? Subscribe to my YouTube channel.

Yeah. That's right. I don't have a 50 in H3. I never got Onyx in Reach. If a game sucks too much, I won't even bother trying for such trivial "accolades". Besides, I've done way more things that take far more skill and talent than anything that can be done in a video game.

Posted by: Dirk_Gently
Not if you are talking cross-map distances. it is fairly good if you know how to use it properly.

Posted by: Dirk_Gently
it is fairly good if you know how to use it properly.

Posted by: Dirk_Gently
if you know how to use it properly.

This. Dear God, this. This seems to be what every no-skill Halo 2 player that has ever claimed that the pistol is overbalanced seems to forget. Unlike the sword, rocket launcher, grav hammer, or H2's sniper, the pistol is only useful in the hands of someone that's good at FPS.

  • 07.10.2011 5:02 PM PDT

Halo 3

That's not the issue. The issue is that the pistol in H1 has the capabilities listed above. In other words, the fact that H1's pistol has the potential to be so destructive makes it an overpowered weapon. There's no logic in saying that a weapon sucks because the player isn't good. It is what it is.

There is a small example that sort of relates to this dilemma: Halo 3's Magnum. No one ever used it because they always thought it sucked. But in reality, it was actually pretty lethal in the hands of a good player, especially when dual-wielded.
Since I played Halo 3 so much, I have experience with this myself. I'd eventually learn to swap my assault rifle with a pistol at all times, even if I was already carrying a battlerifle or a carbine.

The reason it's rare to find people using the pistol is because the H3 magnum is so hard to pull off effectively. Body shots with the pistol are so ineffective in killing that it's almost useless to carry one. But if you carry the magnum with expertise, you'd find out that the only way to kill someone effectively with a magnum is getting headshots, and ONLY headshots. It's very hard to do, especially because the magnum isn't superbly consistent; but if you know the weapon well, you can take on someone using a battlerifle at a reasonable distance (dual-wielding helps with distance).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7YPU7kqJhE

at 0:14-0:20 seconds, the video reinforced what I stated when it showed the magnum having difficulty killing the opponent with no shields when he was giving the opponent multiple chest shots (the last shot was a shot to the chin, resulting in a head shot for the kill).

  • 07.10.2011 5:38 PM PDT

Daodan Latency at 65%


Posted by: Ben2974
That's not the issue. The issue is that the pistol in H1 has the capabilities listed above. In other words, the fact that H1's pistol has the potential to be so destructive makes it an overpowered weapon. There's no logic in saying that a weapon sucks because the player isn't good. It is what it is.



Posted by: Ben2974
That's not the issue. The issue is that the banshee in H1 has the capabilities listed above. In other words, the fact that H1's banshee has the potential to be so destructive makes it an overpowered weapon. There's no logic in saying that a weapon sucks because the player isn't good. It is what it is.


Posted by: Ben2974
That's not the issue. The issue is that the fuel-rod gun in H1 has the capabilities listed above. In other words, the fact that H1's fuel-rod gun has the potential to be so destructive makes it an overpowered weapon. There's no logic in saying that a weapon sucks because the player isn't good. It is what it is.


Posted by: Ben2974
That's not the issue. The issue is that the tank in H1 has the capabilities listed above. In other words, the fact that H1's tank has the potential to be so destructive makes it an overpowered weapon. There's no logic in saying that a weapon sucks because the player isn't good. It is what it is.


need I continue?

[Edited on 07.10.2011 6:37 PM PDT]

  • 07.10.2011 6:37 PM PDT


Posted by: Ben2974
That's not the issue. The issue is that the pistol in H1 has the capabilities listed above. In other words, the fact that H1's pistol has the potential to be so destructive makes it an overpowered weapon. There's no logic in saying that a weapon sucks because the player isn't good. It is what it is.

There is a small example that sort of relates to this dilemma: Halo 3's Magnum. No one ever used it because they always thought it sucked. But in reality, it was actually pretty lethal in the hands of a good player, especially when dual-wielded.
Since I played Halo 3 so much, I have experience with this myself. I'd eventually learn to swap my assault rifle with a pistol at all times, even if I was already carrying a battlerifle or a carbine.

The reason it's rare to find people using the pistol is because the H3 magnum is so hard to pull off effectively. Body shots with the pistol are so ineffective in killing that it's almost useless to carry one. But if you carry the magnum with expertise, you'd find out that the only way to kill someone effectively with a magnum is getting headshots, and ONLY headshots. It's very hard to do, especially because the magnum isn't superbly consistent; but if you know the weapon well, you can take on someone using a battlerifle at a reasonable distance (dual-wielding helps with distance).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7YPU7kqJhE

at 0:14-0:20 seconds, the video reinforced what I stated when it showed the magnum having difficulty killing the opponent with no shields when he was giving the opponent multiple chest shots (the last shot was a shot to the chin, resulting in a head shot for the kill).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxi048eWG40&feature=fvwrel

A truly destructive weapon of mass destruction.

[Edited on 07.10.2011 6:42 PM PDT]

  • 07.10.2011 6:39 PM PDT

Halo 3

erm.. no? lol

  • 07.10.2011 6:44 PM PDT

Daodan Latency at 65%

Also let me make this point, which I sorta surprised I even bothered to look up:

Halo 1: http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/M6D_Personal_Defense_Weapon_System
Halo 2: http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/M6C_Personal_Defense_Weapon_System
Halo 3: http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/M6G_Personal_Defense_Weapon_System

They are different guns. I am no expert with firearms, but I would imagine different models perform differently, thus giving them different purposes and abilities.

  • 07.10.2011 6:47 PM PDT

The rocket launcher has the capacity to be devastating. In Halo 2, it can have up to 8 rockets at once.

If all eight get one kill, that is eight kills.

If all hit a warthog with a turretman and a driver, that is sixteen kills.

If all eight hit a warthog with three people in it, that equals twenty four kills.

Also, the rockets LOCK ON. Sure, the launcher is less available than the pistol, but how many people can properly use the pistol in Halo PC as opposed to the amount of "experienced" rocket noobs on H2 Vista?

  • 07.10.2011 6:53 PM PDT

Halo 3


Posted by: Tempus Irae
The rocket launcher has the capacity to be devastating. In Halo 2, it can have up to 8 rockets at once.

If all eight get one kill, that is eight kills.

If all hit a warthog with a turretman and a driver, that is sixteen kills.

If all eight hit a warthog with three people in it, that equals twenty four kills.

Also, the rockets LOCK ON. Sure, the launcher is less available than the pistol, but how many people can properly use the pistol in Halo PC as opposed to the amount of "experienced" rocket noobs on H2 Vista?



The point is that the rocket is the "weapon of choice" for just a couple specific situations. It SHOULD be devastating for the right cases. That's the whole point in having variety in weaponry. The situations includes: getting rid of vehicles (in Halo 2) and close range combat.

  • 07.10.2011 7:05 PM PDT

close range combat.

I hear rocket launchers are very safe at close range.

[Edited on 07.10.2011 7:08 PM PDT]

  • 07.10.2011 7:07 PM PDT
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  • Noble Legendary Member

Halo 1&2 PC forum's resident OC ReMixer. Like rockified and metalized video game music? Subscribe to my YouTube channel.

Yeah. That's right. I don't have a 50 in H3. I never got Onyx in Reach. If a game sucks too much, I won't even bother trying for such trivial "accolades". Besides, I've done way more things that take far more skill and talent than anything that can be done in a video game.

A weapon that's only useful if you're good at FPS is game-breaking, but a weapon that a first-timer can use to kill literally anyone he wants to extremely easily is a-okay.

You really are that stupid. Incredible.

  • 07.10.2011 7:23 PM PDT

Halo 3

I hear rocket launchers are very safe at close range.

Well not melee range. A range that's too far for a shotgun but close enough for the battlerifle to handle consistently without the scope.


Posted by: DusK
A weapon that's only useful if you're good at FPS is game-breaking, but a weapon that a first-timer can use to kill literally anyone he wants to extremely easily is a-okay.

You really are that stupid. Incredible.


It's game-breaking indeed. All weapons are useful if you know how to use them; that's the point. What makes a game balanced is whether the weapons have a balance between their strengths and weaknesses. Halo 2 did a better job than Halo 1 in these regards.

  • 07.10.2011 7:39 PM PDT

Weapons:

Pistol: Already been discussed.

Sniper Rifle: Good for long-ranged targets. Takes skill to hit moving targets over network play. Or luck.

Plasma Pistol: Good for medium range and close range, can bring down an enemy shield to prepare it for the knockout punch.

AR: Large magazine, inaccurate at long range, moderately accurate if fired in bursts at mid-range, excellent for firefights at decent range.

Shotgun: For a shotgun, this weapon has a longer range than any other halo shotgun I've seen. The shotgun is of course, best for taking out targets at short range. I've killed she's using it, and if you sneak up behind a hog-turret user you can kill them fast.

Plasma rifle: More accurate than the AR, a personal favourite of mine. While it is shorter-range than the AR, you'll have less wild shots when firing full-auto, but you have to make sure it doesn't overheat.

Rocket Launcher: Best used in close quarters.

Needler: This unfortunate weapon is just about neglected in multiplayer. However, if you use it right, you can really scare the hell out of an enemy. Seeing as the projectiles follow them, they'll trying to strafe to one side to avoid the projectiles, so if you follow up with a grenade at the right time, you can land a nice kill.

PC weapons:

Fuel Rod Gun: I prefer to use this weapon for bombarding an area with a high-enemy concentration, before switching to a more accurate weapon like the pistol and following up with a couple well-aimed shot. If you know how to use it, it makes a good support weapon. Good at taking out land-based vehicles.

Flamethrower: This thing...Ugh. It has potential to be a very good weapon, but it always ends up in the hands of an idiot who kills himself with it. best used in close quarters, it burns -blam!-. There's really not much to say about it.


[Edited on 07.10.2011 7:59 PM PDT]

  • 07.10.2011 7:58 PM PDT

Halo 3


Posted by: Tempus Irae
Weapons:

Pistol: Already been discussed.

Sniper Rifle: Good for long-ranged targets. Takes skill to hit moving targets over network play. Or luck.

Plasma Pistol: Good for medium range and close range, can bring down an enemy shield to prepare it for the knockout punch.

AR: Large magazine, inaccurate at long range, moderately accurate if fired in bursts at mid-range, excellent for firefights at decent range.

Shotgun: For a shotgun, this weapon has a longer range than any other halo shotgun I've seen. The shotgun is of course, best for taking out targets at short range. I've killed she's using it, and if you sneak up behind a hog-turret user you can kill them fast.

Plasma rifle: More accurate than the AR, a personal favourite of mine. While it is shorter-range than the AR, you'll have less wild shots when firing full-auto, but you have to make sure it doesn't overheat.

Rocket Launcher: Best used in close quarters.

Needler: This unfortunate weapon is just about neglected in multiplayer. However, if you use it right, you can really scare the hell out of an enemy. Seeing as the projectiles follow them, they'll trying to strafe to one side to avoid the projectiles, so if you follow up with a grenade at the right time, you can land a nice kill.

PC weapons:

Fuel Rod Gun: I prefer to use this weapon for bombarding an area with a high-enemy concentration, before switching to a more accurate weapon like the pistol and following up with a couple well-aimed shot. If you know how to use it, it makes a good support weapon. Good at taking out land-based vehicles.

Flamethrower: This thing...Ugh. It has potential to be a very good weapon, but it always ends up in the hands of an idiot who kills himself with it. best used in close quarters, it burns -blam!-. There's really not much to say about it.


yeah that's basically the idea of weapon balance: Good for this, bad for that.

  • 07.10.2011 8:12 PM PDT
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  • Noble Legendary Member

Halo 1&2 PC forum's resident OC ReMixer. Like rockified and metalized video game music? Subscribe to my YouTube channel.

Yeah. That's right. I don't have a 50 in H3. I never got Onyx in Reach. If a game sucks too much, I won't even bother trying for such trivial "accolades". Besides, I've done way more things that take far more skill and talent than anything that can be done in a video game.


Posted by: Ben2974
It's game-breaking indeed. All weapons are useful if you know how to use them; that's the point. What makes a game balanced is whether the weapons have a balance between their strengths and weaknesses. Halo 2 did a better job than Halo 1 in these regards.

FREAKIN LOL

Honestly, dude. I can no longer take you seriously at this point. You're either being sarcastic, or you really are completely braindead.

  • 07.10.2011 8:40 PM PDT

Halo 3


Posted by: DusK

Posted by: Ben2974
It's game-breaking indeed. All weapons are useful if you know how to use them; that's the point. What makes a game balanced is whether the weapons have a balance between their strengths and weaknesses. Halo 2 did a better job than Halo 1 in these regards.

FREAKIN LOL

Honestly, dude. I can no longer take you seriously at this point. You're either being sarcastic, or you really are completely braindead.


That's fine with me.

  • 07.10.2011 10:02 PM PDT
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  • Noble Legendary Member

Halo 1&2 PC forum's resident OC ReMixer. Like rockified and metalized video game music? Subscribe to my YouTube channel.

Yeah. That's right. I don't have a 50 in H3. I never got Onyx in Reach. If a game sucks too much, I won't even bother trying for such trivial "accolades". Besides, I've done way more things that take far more skill and talent than anything that can be done in a video game.


Posted by: Ben2974

Posted by: DusK

Posted by: Ben2974
It's game-breaking indeed. All weapons are useful if you know how to use them; that's the point. What makes a game balanced is whether the weapons have a balance between their strengths and weaknesses. Halo 2 did a better job than Halo 1 in these regards.

FREAKIN LOL

Honestly, dude. I can no longer take you seriously at this point. You're either being sarcastic, or you really are completely braindead.


That's fine with me.

Being braindead? Of course it is. You always have Halo 2 to pretend you're not.

  • 07.11.2011 12:01 AM PDT


Posted by: Frnksnbns
It is well known that Halo 2 was totally noobified by Bungie. It was perfect for the emerging Xbox kids to enjoy though. Easy kills, no fall damage, swords, all that jazz made kids happy to play it.

And for your 7 reasons, we could probably list 30 more easily as a group.

Oh and btw, Unreal Tournament actually had a faster pace of play than Halo.



Are you kidding me? Halo 2 was once the most-played game on Xbox Live. Surely not ALL of the players were kiddies?
And just because they screwed up the Vista version (Hell, Vista itself is screwed up) does not mean it is crap. The Original XBL population versus the Windows Live population makes it quite evident.

EDIT: and swords is a pretty cool guy. Eh flies 10 km towards another guy and kill im.

[Edited on 07.30.2011 11:55 PM PDT]

  • 07.30.2011 11:54 PM PDT


Posted by: N00B5600

Posted by: Frnksnbns
It is well known that Halo 2 was totally noobified by Bungie. It was perfect for the emerging Xbox kids to enjoy though. Easy kills, no fall damage, swords, all that jazz made kids happy to play it.

And for your 7 reasons, we could probably list 30 more easily as a group.

Oh and btw, Unreal Tournament actually had a faster pace of play than Halo.



Are you kidding me? Halo 2 was once the most-played game on Xbox Live. Surely not ALL of the players were kiddies?
And just because they screwed up the Vista version (Hell, Vista itself is screwed up) does not mean it is crap. The Original XBL population versus the Windows Live population makes it quite evident.

EDIT: and swords is a pretty cool guy. Eh flies 10 km towards another guy and kill im.


I would post a counter to this, but I don't think you have the intelligence to be able to understand it.

  • 07.31.2011 12:47 AM PDT
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  • Noble Legendary Member

Halo 1&2 PC forum's resident OC ReMixer. Like rockified and metalized video game music? Subscribe to my YouTube channel.

Yeah. That's right. I don't have a 50 in H3. I never got Onyx in Reach. If a game sucks too much, I won't even bother trying for such trivial "accolades". Besides, I've done way more things that take far more skill and talent than anything that can be done in a video game.

Posted by: N00B5600
Are you kidding me? Halo 2 was once the most-played game on Xbox Live. Surely not ALL of the players were kiddies?
And just because they screwed up the Vista version (Hell, Vista itself is screwed up) does not mean it is crap. The Original XBL population versus the Windows Live population makes it quite evident.

Uh, yeah, actually he's right. You'd be hard-pressed to find a Halo 2 player over 16 years old, even in its heyday. Even on these boards, pretty much everyone willing to defend the game is under the age of 18.

And the reason why the population is so drastically different between the two platforms is because:

1. The game sucks, and although console-gamers are ready, willing, and able to bow down and worship a sub-par game such as H2, PC gamers are definitely not, and
2. Most PC gamers are adults, and adults don't play childrens' games.

I'd reiterate my previous statements about the lack of gaming standards expressed by the console-gaming diehards since console gen 6 and up that allowed such a mediocre game like Halo 2 to become so successful, but I really shouldn't have to.

  • 07.31.2011 1:04 AM PDT

Well, its not like console gamers had anything else to play.... and if you compare it to other xbox titles of its time it looks much, much better.

NOW BACK ON-TOPIC!
Skills..... hmm.....
I agree with everything you said except.... how did you forget about the vehicles? Destructible vehicles add a more tactical element to the game. Whereas before you would ram that SOB into the ground, now you have to try to not have your ride blow up and try to avoid lock-on rockets. Not to mention vehicle-boarding also reduces vehicle superiority, hence balancing the game (a bit)
YES. Halo 1 needs more skill. But the gap between the two games is not as big as you seem to think.

[Edited on 07.31.2011 1:16 AM PDT]

  • 07.31.2011 1:16 AM PDT