Posted by: DusK
Posted by: Ben2974
"I'm gonna make this short and sweet for you. Maybe then you'll get it. Everything you're saying takes skill -camping, power weapon whoring/waiting for, the power weapon concept in general, "map control", using cramped/tight spots, ect- doesn't. Therefore, since Halo 2 places these easy concepts above the primary focus of a skill-based FPS, marksmanship, the game takes no skill to play."
What else am I supposed to say other than you're wrong?
I'm not about to say you're right. After all, between us, there's only one liar.
Posted by: Ben2974
Like, wow! It's even right in front of you. "If the noob decides to stay there and wait, then let him be." Does the word noob mean professional player? No it does not.
And it's right in front of your face; The fact that a noob can get anywhere by camping, even if it's killing a better player even once, denotes a game that takes no skill to play. You're only defending this so adamantly because you do it too.
And don't deny it. I've seen your H3 heatmaps. You play like a royal -blam!-.
Posted by: Ben2974
I never said camping or power weapon whoring takes skill, in fact, I condemn that; however, I just explained how map control and other features are skills that are great assets to a halo player.
Except they're not skills. Anyone can watch or sit on a section of the map. Anyone can sit around waiting for a stupidly overpowered weapon. Anybody can do that stuff. It's not hard at all unless you're freakin' stupid. Therefore, because these unskilled aspect of the game are "great assets to a Halo player," the game takes no skill to play.
Posted by: Ben2974
And what I said early is only a suggestion to someone that would be unsure about his abilities in handling those pesky campers. You don't have to do what I said and walk around the map getting all buffed up for the camper. If you were good, you could do the other things I said like throwing grenades as bait or do corner checks with a suitable weapon. Sure, you could take it easy and arm yourself to the teeth before you walk into any sketchy hallway, but that's never necessary unless you're bad at handling campers and decide to waltz into the small room holding a battlerifle.
You're contradicting yourself. If someone's in a small space sitting there with a rocket launcher, you're not gonna kill him with a standard weapon. You have two choices at that point in order to kill him; get a coward weapon on par with what he's holding, or die. You can't say something like "You don't have to do what I said and walk around the map getting all buffed up for the camper" and then express that a "suitable weapon" would be needed to handle him. Self contradiction in the same paragraph does not help your case.
Posted by: Ben2974
Take Battlefield 2 for instance. The goal is to capture flag points as territories in order to advance yourselves further into enemy territory and help set up tactical points for invasion, etc. When I'm chilling at the flag area to capture it, it's 99% of the time near some buildings or built-in infrastructures that give protection to the player if needed. Now if I had the choice to hold a shotgun or an ak47, which would I choose if I were to suddenly encounter a stray enemy that walks around the corner of the block and pops up in my face? The answer is the shotgun. This also works vice versa as well.
Difference being that in BF2 you can miss with the shotgun, whereas in H2 and above it's practically auto-kill. If that AK47-wielding player is better than you in your example situation, you'll die.
"I'm not about to say you're right. After all, between us, there's only one liar."
You've lied many times here and there during our arguments to bolster your points. Don't deny that. Last time I "lied" was when I exaggerated the player count in H2V (as far as I remember). And make sure when you reply to this with some sort of quote coming from me saying I lied, send me the link to the thread, even if it's this one; seeing the page number will make it easier.
"And it's right in front of your face; The fact that a noob can get anywhere by camping, even if it's killing a better player even once, denotes a game that takes no skill to play. You're only defending this so adamantly because you do it too.
And don't deny it. I've seen your H3 heatmaps. You play like a royal -blam!-."
No, it only denotes that the player being beaten by the camper is just as bad, or not good enough to avoid noobish things like hiding in the rocket/camo room in "The Pit", for instance.
I will definitely deny the heatmaps. First of all, if you haven't noticed, the heat maps give us a general idea of where most battle conflicts take place. What it doesn't tell us is what is used in those battle conflicts (although you can make it show for specific weapons). For my first point, for all you know I could be whipping out the pistol, the battlerifle, the carbine, or the sniper in those areas. I'm the one that goes in there and destroys the campers, so you see so many kills in those tight areas. But why? Well, my second point is that "maps are made the way they are for a reason" (something I said earlier). What I mean by this, is that it enhances game play tactics because of the way maps are made. You NEVER have to pass through small areas to get to where you want to go on a map. There is always another large passage that can take you where you need to go. But there's strategy to small areas. Those small areas are there for power weapons and/or (because it's not always for both reasons) short cuts to get to the other side of the map (For gametype instances), just to name a couple.
Here's the catch: Small areas are breeding grounds for noobs that have to rely on camping to get kills. And to that noob's advantage, those small areas are frequented a lot due to reasons such as the couple mentioned above. So if you want to be called good, then learn to pass through those small areas (you don't even have to if you have another plan) without getting injured by the campers.
"Except they're not skills. Anyone can watch or sit on a section of the map. Anyone can sit around waiting for a stupidly overpowered weapon. Anybody can do that stuff. It's not hard at all unless you're freakin' stupid. Therefore, because these unskilled aspect of the game are "great assets to a Halo player," the game takes no skill to play."
"stupidly overpowered weapon"? No they took all of that out in the next Halos when they realized Halo 1's pistol. It's only overpowered to you because you think that a battlerifle is supposed to beat somebody using a rocket in a small corridor/pocket. You going in there with a battlerifle is noobish. Map control is part of staying in a "control zone", sort of like King of the hill. They are tactical areas that you only realize when you gain enough experience. You'd soon realize that, by staying in these areas, you're a target because of your lethal positioning. It's not the same as waiting in a small room to watch for passerby's. And map control isn't "waiting" for the power weapons. It's to make sure your opponents don't get them. There's a big difference there. The weapons you choose are also a big factor in determining the different methods of map control.
map control can only be accomplished with your other skills but hiding can be done with no skill.
"You're contradicting yourself. If someone's in a small space sitting there with a rocket launcher, you're not gonna kill him with a standard weapon. You have two choices at that point in order to kill him; get a coward weapon on par with what he's holding, or die. You can't say something like "You don't have to do what I said and walk around the map getting all buffed up for the camper" and then express that a "suitable weapon" would be needed to handle him. Self contradiction in the same paragraph does not help your case."
Of course you can kill him with a standard weapon. Throw 1 or 2 grenades to either kill the person or make him jump out, while you've kept your distance, and pop him in the head with one burst of the battlerifle (or 2 bursts depending on the accuracy of your throw, which is another instance of skill which helps determines your win or loss). But yes, you can always go in with a power weapon, but even so, your opponent still has a better chance to kill you because he has the element of surprise on his side. So therefore it's smarter to NOT use a power weapon because not only will you have a good chance of dying (depending on your other skills such as reflex, aim, and timing), but you may also waste ammunition if there was no actual camper resulting in you just being too cautious.
With this post I am agreeing that I have contradicted myself. It happens when you get lost in thought :D
"Difference being that in BF2 you can miss with the shotgun, whereas in H2 and above it's practically auto-kill. If that AK47-wielding player is better than you in your example situation, you'll die."
You can miss with the shotgun in Halo 2+ as well. It's very easy to miss, too. Also I noticed the shotgun range in BF2 is HUGE compared to the Halo series. In fact, in my opinion, I think it's easier to aim and hit with a shotgun in BF2 than it is in Halo.
[Edited on 07.10.2011 11:36 AM PDT]