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This topic has moved here: Subject: I declare Halo: Reach Non-Canon. Don't agree? Get over it.
  • Subject: I declare Halo: Reach Non-Canon. Don't agree? Get over it.
Subject: I declare Halo: Reach Non-Canon. Don't agree? Get over it.
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Posted by: immadchill

Posted by: ImmortalJoshua

Posted by: JesseJH
The invasion of Reach was severely downplayed. I saw no Mac Guns in orbit above Reach, and barely any UNSC ships. When Jorge sacrificed himself (Didn't make sense to when there were marines.) to take down a Covenant Supercarrier, (Which by the way a ship that size would not last long above Reach because of all the ships and SMACS that SHOULD be present.) There were like 5 more Covenant ships that came out of slipspace. I'm sorry but... The battle of Anchor 9 was so quiet. There should have been hundrens of different Covenant vessels, and there were not.

Reach is the Hub of the UNSC. And the fact that it was poorly defended in the game by a few frigates, a handful of Sabres, and one Halcyon, (WHICH SHOULD NOT BE ON THE GROUND.) was pathetic. Reach is not Harvest. Reach should have been heavily defended by hundreds of UNSC ships of all different classes, and SUPER MACS.

Nothing in this game fits. You can argue all you want about Blah Blah Blah
game is automatically canon. I don't really care.

But what you can't argue with me is that the book was way more epic than the game. AND it made more sense.


1. Do you have any idea how huge a planet is? And do you know how small MAC stations are compared to a planet? Just because you didn't see the MAC stations doesn't mean they weren't in orbit, like 50 miles away or so. Also the Super Carrier could have easily destroyed any MAC station near it. This would explain the lack of MAC stations in the area. A small strike force would easily be undetected by the Super Carrier, the Frigate was just a distraction.

2. The ARMY guys died on the Corvette. Jorge was the only one left. If you're playing the game on Legendary, which is most likely what the books are on, then your ARMY guys are gonna die.

3. The Anchor 9 situation was a small skirmish. That's why Phantom gunboats were sent in, most likely boarding craft. Also take into account the possible 100 Banshee/Seraphs that attacked the station.







Actually I read somewhere that the troopers who board the corvette are UNSC Air Force commandoes


Im almost 100% sure that they are marines, like the ones in the Pillar Of Autumn

  • 06.23.2011 12:21 PM PDT
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Deva Path


Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

They are Army

  • 06.23.2011 12:25 PM PDT

"Where ere thou hast been, here or in yon world manifest? Canst thou tell what is, or what was, or what is to come? No thing shall last. Yet there are some things that will never change. History is written in blood, yet are battles really lost on the battlefield? Canst thou tell me where thou comest, and where thou goest, and what is, or what was, or what will be? For everything remains, AS IT NEVER WAS."

Posted by: the rabid grunt
Im almost 100% sure that they are marines, like the ones in the Pillar Of Autumn

They were Air Force, I believe Frankie said that somewhere. Grey, the Army wouldn't be flying specialized spacecraft; that's not their job description. Army is ground troops.

[Edited on 06.23.2011 12:26 PM PDT]

  • 06.23.2011 12:25 PM PDT

I DO have time to bleed...i just dont want to.

the games are allways more canon than the books because the games came out first /thread

  • 06.23.2011 12:31 PM PDT

Adepto In Meus Campester
Posted by: ParagonRenegade
You were totally and absolutely correct in every way, I don't know why we were arguing, you're so amazing I should never have doubted you.

Finally, someone with a lick of sense. Props to you, OP.



Posted by: immadchill
I DECLARE EVERY FANFIC EVER CREATED CANON, that's not how it works bro
Only Twin Blades is canon.

  • 06.23.2011 12:35 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: jack0fhearts
Posted by: the rabid grunt
Im almost 100% sure that they are marines, like the ones in the Pillar Of Autumn

They were Air Force, I believe Frankie said that somewhere. Grey, the Army wouldn't be flying specialized spacecraft; that's not their job description. Army is ground troops.


as if it isn't natural to assume that seeing how N6 is army and doing the same thing along with he fact they ere re-purposed for planet defense.

Army isn't just ground engagements they are planetary defense and they also have an airborne division.

  • 06.23.2011 12:39 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: GOLDENSKULL95
the games are allways more canon than the books because the games came out first /thread


TFoR came out 2 weeks before halo CE

/your post

  • 06.23.2011 12:39 PM PDT

"Where ere thou hast been, here or in yon world manifest? Canst thou tell what is, or what was, or what is to come? No thing shall last. Yet there are some things that will never change. History is written in blood, yet are battles really lost on the battlefield? Canst thou tell me where thou comest, and where thou goest, and what is, or what was, or what will be? For everything remains, AS IT NEVER WAS."

Posted by: grey101
as if it isn't natural to assume that seeing how N6 is army and doing the same thing along with he fact they ere re-purposed for planet defense.

Noble Six is a specialize SPARTAN commissioned by ONI Section III and the UNSC Navy working in affiliation with the UNSC Army on a joint-coalition operation. Noble Team was not Army.

Posted by: grey101
Army isn't just ground engagements they are planetary defense and they also have an airborne division.

"The UNSC Army is a branch of the UNSC Defense Force that is primarily responsible for land-based military operations.
The Airborne is an elite light infantry corps of the UNSC Army. It consists of both parachute infantry and air assault elements, as well as other airborne-qualified elements such as armored reconnaissance cavalry, field artillery, and engineering units. Although they are deployed in a very different manner, the Airborne forces could be considered a sister unit to the UNSC Marine Corps' Orbital Drop Shock Troopers"

So the Army's "airborne troops" are basically the Army Rangers of the UNSC. Army Rangers don't fly fighter jets. Any aircraft they pilot (Falcons, Pelicans etc) would be equivalent to the Helicopters of today's Army.
Posted by: grey101
TFoR came out 2 weeks before halo CE

This is still irrelivant. Right on the back of the book - I'm looking right at it - it says "This novel is based on a Mature rated video game" (Halo.) The novel. Is based. Not the other way around. It is exactly like video games of movies coming out weeks before the movies themselves.

[Edited on 06.23.2011 12:53 PM PDT]

  • 06.23.2011 12:52 PM PDT

Oh hey there

Posted by: petarded2
It's a metaphor for the 07s' lack of identity. too old to be newfa­g, yet too new to be oldfa­g, we wander b.net in search of a home, forever trying to be something we are not.

Honestly OP this is what I have done in my mind for the past year. It's a great story but because I like TFoR so much, and it came first, in my mind Reach is a nice what could have been.

  • 06.23.2011 12:56 PM PDT
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Posted by: Sp4rt4n119
Thank you sir, that was an epic rendition of this topic.


Posted by: Xx KNOX xX
and how!


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: GOLDENSKULL95
the games are allways more canon than the books because the games came out first /thread


TFoR came out 2 weeks before halo CE

/your post


He doesn't know what he is talking about. BUT, a certain Joseph Staten does.

In an interview with: Joseph Staten

[Talking about Halo canon as a whole]

"HSP: Would the books make the cut?

JS: The books are, for better or worse, part of the canon. In the future we may choose to revise or flat-out ignore some of the less appealing ideas (Johnson's biological immunity to the Flood, for example), but folks should treat them as defining elements of the Halo universe."


Source


Game canon > book canon. End of story. If the creators of the story decide that something an outside author has added doesn't fit with what they want, it isn't canon.

The order is the list of games from most recent to least recent, followed by the books in order of release, followed by other canonical media approved by 343i (Or before 343i existed, by Bungie), like Halo Legends. (Yes, Halo Legends was approved as canon by 343i.)

So that means Halo Reach is at the top of the list for canon importance while The Fall of Reach is at the absolute bottom of the list.

You know what that means? That means despite all the minor inconsistencies, a long list of incorrect dates and times that don't match up with TFoR as to where Halsey is, and a handful of weird things that don't belong, Reach is canon.

So TOO BAD.

  • 06.23.2011 1:00 PM PDT

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Posted by: ImmortalJoshua
2. The ARMY guys died on the Corvette. Jorge was the only one left. If you're playing the game on Legendary, which is most likely what the books are on, then your ARMY guys are gonna die.


Hmmm... I must admit I found that whole part jarring because all of my Marines survived to the end of the level (on Heroic) and I've had a few survive on Legendary as well. Its the sort of thing that makes me scratch my head, as any Marine worth his salt would take Jorges place so that he could continue fighting.

  • 06.23.2011 1:02 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: jack0fhearts
Posted by: grey101
as if it isn't natural to assume that seeing how N6 is army and doing the same thing along with he fact they ere re-purposed for planet defense.

Noble Six is a specialize SPARTAN commissioned by ONI Section III and the UNSC Navy working in affiliation with the UNSC Army on a joint-coalition operation. Noble Team was not Army.

Posted by: grey101
Army isn't just ground engagements they are planetary defense and they also have an airborne division.

"The UNSC Army is a branch of the UNSC Defense Force that is primarily responsible for land-based military operations.
The Airborne is an elite light infantry corps of the UNSC Army. It consists of both parachute infantry and air assault elements, as well as other airborne-qualified elements such as armored reconnaissance cavalry, field artillery, and engineering units. Although they are deployed in a very different manner, the Airborne forces could be considered a sister unit to the UNSC Marine Corps' Orbital Drop Shock Troopers"

So the Army's "airborne troops" are basically the Army Rangers of the UNSC. Army Rangers don't fly fighter jets. Any aircraft they pilot (Falcons, Pelicans etc) would be equivalent to the Helicopters of today's Army.
Posted by: grey101
TFoR came out 2 weeks before halo CE

This is still irrelivant. Right on the back of the book - I'm looking right at it - it says "This novel is based on a Mature rated video game" (Halo.) The novel. Is based. Not the other way around. It is exactly like video games of movies coming out weeks before the movies themselves.


1. give me a link to the join op because GoO clearly states that the SIIIs are under army jurisdiction, bungie said noble team is army also. so give me a link

2.I don;t recall spartans flying fighters until the game came out ether. link to a statment saying they are navy. otherwise i think both of us should leave that section alone.

3.um it is highly relevant. the book came out october 30 and HCE came out november 15, thus it was out before the game. you have yet to tell me what game GoO is based off of, and tell me what game cryptum is based on also.

  • 06.23.2011 1:08 PM PDT

"Where ere thou hast been, here or in yon world manifest? Canst thou tell what is, or what was, or what is to come? No thing shall last. Yet there are some things that will never change. History is written in blood, yet are battles really lost on the battlefield? Canst thou tell me where thou comest, and where thou goest, and what is, or what was, or what will be? For everything remains, AS IT NEVER WAS."

It's assumed that canonically the Marines die.

  • 06.23.2011 1:08 PM PDT

On Waypoint I'm rocketFox;
http://halo.xbox.com/forums/members/rocketfox/default.aspx

Old GTs; RebelRobot, Flamedude

Posted by: jack0fhearts
It's assumed that canonically the Marines die.


I understand that yes, but I think it just comes over as a poor piece of storytelling.

"The battle was over. Suddenly all of the Marines got terrible food poisoning and died."

  • 06.23.2011 1:11 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: x MibZ x

Posted by: grey101

Posted by: GOLDENSKULL95
the games are allways more canon than the books because the games came out first /thread


TFoR came out 2 weeks before halo CE

/your post


He doesn't know what he is talking about. BUT, a certain Joseph Staten does.

In an interview with: Joseph Staten

[Talking about Halo canon as a whole]

"HSP: Would the books make the cut?

JS: The books are, for better or worse, part of the canon. In the future we may choose to revise or flat-out ignore some of the less appealing ideas (Johnson's biological immunity to the Flood, for example), but folks should treat them as defining elements of the Halo universe."


Source


Game canon > book canon. End of story. If the creators of the story decide that something an outside author has added doesn't fit with what they want, it isn't canon.

The order is the list of games from most recent to least recent, followed by the books in order of release, followed by other canonical media approved by 343i (Or before 343i existed, by Bungie), like Halo Legends. (Yes, Halo Legends was approved as canon by 343i.)

So that means Halo Reach is at the top of the list for canon importance while The Fall of Reach is at the absolute bottom of the list.

You know what that means? That means despite all the minor inconsistencies, a long list of incorrect dates and times that don't match up with TFoR as to where Halsey is, and a handful of weird things that don't belong, Reach is canon.

So TOO BAD.


you do know your link does not say g>b right? staten just says they can fix what they do not like (and they did) the novel reach was and has not been "fixed" to stand with the game.

you do know Joseph Staten personally wrote contact harvest correct? and when games completely element gameplay elements they will then be "better" then the books.

becuase in the game nothing happens if you shoot a marine with a plasma pistol to the stomach, yet in the book CH everything pretty much falls out of said stomach.

  • 06.23.2011 1:12 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: jack0fhearts
It's assumed that canonically the Marines die.


This is the clear issue with Games>books, can you tell me what happens canonically to the civilians in nightfall? becuase i don't think bungie said anything about them, what about the zealot on TotS?

this is the flaw with that logic.

  • 06.23.2011 1:13 PM PDT

I just want to highlight a couple of extremely stupid things said in this thread...

Posted by: Hydrilus

In the book, when a Marine gets hit with a single plasma shot, he's pretty much done for. It sears away the weak armor they wear and then eats away their flesh. THAT is realistic...BUT, of course in the game this wouldn't work...it wouldn't be very much fun to have marines that die in one shot... Even games like Call of Duty that take a more realistic approach to warfare won't let you die in one shot. You can take hit after hit in a game and keep on going.


Basically, what is said here is that because one book says something, it beats EVERY SINGLE HALO GAME. Halo: CE, 2, 3, Reach, ODST... in all of those, it takes multiple Covie shots to kill a Marine. You say that because the book says it should take one, it takes one. I mean, come on. Games beat books for canon every time. One book can't override EVERY GAME.

Posted by: Hydrilus
So, when Reach falls in a matter of hours...YES, IT'S BELIEVABLE. The Covenant arrive with a huge fleet of superior ships, vs humans, who, in order to take out ONE Covie ship, must sacrifice 3 or 4 of their own...yeah, you're gonna get raped hard.


Reach could not be glassed in less than 2 hours, no ship can move that fast.

Posted by: Hydrilus
If the U.S. didn't give a crap about Iraq, Afghanistan, oil or what anyone in the world thought of us, you think we'd really spend 10+ years fighting there? Hell no. All that's left is revenge for 9/11 - we would have bombed the place to hell and been done by the end of a the day.


Bombed AN ENTIRE COUNTRY in a day? Are you stupid? I get your point, but the US could not bomb an entire country in a day any more than the Covenant could glass an entire planet in 2 hours. NEITHER is even remotely possible. Before anyone says anything about atomic bombs, grow a brain, because we're talking upwards of 500000 square miles, combining Iraq and Afghanistan.


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: abelsinh
Sorry.

Games Canon > Any other Canon.


not true what soever seeing how they games have to have things implemented so people will by them, catering, gameplay elements, etc.


What the -blam!- did that even MEAN???


Posted by: grey101

Posted by: jack0fhearts
It's assumed that canonically the Marines die.


This is the clear issue with Games>books, can you tell me what happens canonically to the civilians in nightfall? becuase i don't think bungie said anything about them, what about the zealot on TotS?

this is the flaw with that logic.


When it is obvious to the plot that the marines die (HINT: THEY'RE NOT THERE IN THE CUTSCENE - GO FIGURE), then they die. Anyone with an ounce of a brain can figure out when it's relevant to the plot and when it's not. This thread is basically people like you whining about small inconsistencies that can be resolved with small assumptions, but those would require half a brain, which is very rare on this forum.

[Edited on 06.23.2011 1:22 PM PDT]

  • 06.23.2011 1:20 PM PDT

"Where ere thou hast been, here or in yon world manifest? Canst thou tell what is, or what was, or what is to come? No thing shall last. Yet there are some things that will never change. History is written in blood, yet are battles really lost on the battlefield? Canst thou tell me where thou comest, and where thou goest, and what is, or what was, or what will be? For everything remains, AS IT NEVER WAS."

Posted by: grey101
1. give me a link to the join op because GoO clearly states that the SIIIs are under army jurisdiction, bungie said noble team is army also. so give me a link

"The SPARTAN-III program was a project initiated by the Beta-5 Division of the Office of Naval Intelligence's Section-III"
The Spartan III's are Navy. They report to an Army officer (Ackerson) by default, unless ONI dictates otherwise.
Posted by: grey101
2.I don;t recall spartans flying fighters until the game came out ether. link to a statment saying they are navy. otherwise i think both of us should leave that section alone.

"the nearest nonexistent launch site in the nonexistent Sabre Program, dismissed by three administrations as preposterous rumor. And in which our newest member was certainly never a pilot."
Not all Spartans, just Six. However, what does John-117 escape on in Halo: Combat Evolved? A Longsword class fighter. Spartans are trained and authorized with all UNSC arms and vehicles.
Posted by: grey101
3.um it is highly relevant. the book came out october 30 and HCE came out november 15, thus it was out before the game. you have yet to tell me what game GoO is based off of, and tell me what game cryptum is based on also.

It. Does. Not. Matter. The Books came out on October 30th, yes, but at that point Combat Evolved was done. It is the exact damn thing as what happens with games based on movies. It is marketing. You cannot deny (unless there is an overwhelming amount of pride,) that the books clearly say "Based on the game."
Ghosts of Onyx and Cryptum? They cover material introduced by the games, thus they are based off the games. Are you seeing the pattern here?

  • 06.23.2011 1:31 PM PDT

Twitter | Nothing

Bungie declare that it is canon, get over it.

  • 06.23.2011 1:32 PM PDT

"Concise and devoid of elegance...what I have come to expect from human communication"-Endless Summer

This isn't Transformers,you can't have personal canon.You don't like a game/book you can't just declare it non-canonical.

  • 06.23.2011 1:34 PM PDT
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Member of Bungie.net for nearly three years, still continuing!

Enjoy what you have and live on.

My gamertag is Elder Bias

Whoever said that game canon overrides the book canon is purely idiotic.

Then how can a Marine withstand multiple plasma hits? In books, plasma weapons MELT THROUGH THE ARMOR AND BURN THE FLESH WHICH MARINE DIES! Not hard to grasp.

Seems that whoever is defending the Halo: Reach's inconsistencies and errors is purely ignorant fan-boy. True Halo Fans truly know what difference of canon is. For example, game mechanics, glitches, etc is not canon. Only canon is storyline.

And it does matter that The Fall of Reach came out two weeks BEFORE Halo CE was released. I think that Game canon does not need to override the book canon. Technically, Game canon overriding book canon is what caused Halo universe to have too many problems and messed up stuff there.

  • 06.23.2011 1:40 PM PDT

"Concise and devoid of elegance...what I have come to expect from human communication"-Endless Summer


Posted by: immadchill
I had always assumed that the stealth pylons jammed UNSC sensors and emitted radiation to conceal it from air while the spire visually hid it and the highly advanced strike team they sent ahead to recover artifacts and/or assess how much of a fight the humans would put up. When they destroyed the spire the super carrier was revealed very close to orbit, too close to be shot down by one of the SMAC's.

Although I don't know why they didn't just send all of the ships on Reach to attack it, which, would have made short work of it. Maybe it was the point of UPPERCUT to reduce the amount of UNSC ships destroyed.Then on the 30th the Reach we all know and love occurred


This is what I have been saying since the damn game came out and people started whining.

  • 06.23.2011 1:43 PM PDT

Hey look, more Reach hate. What an anomaly.

  • 06.23.2011 1:56 PM PDT

Am I supposed to write something funny here?


Posted by: raganok99
Whoever said that game canon overrides the book canon is purely idiotic.

Then how can a Marine withstand multiple plasma hits? In books, plasma weapons MELT THROUGH THE ARMOR AND BURN THE FLESH WHICH MARINE DIES! Not hard to grasp.

Seems that whoever is defending the Halo: Reach's inconsistencies and errors is purely ignorant fan-boy. True Halo Fans truly know what difference of canon is. For example, game mechanics, glitches, etc is not canon. Only canon is storyline.

And it does matter that The Fall of Reach came out two weeks BEFORE Halo CE was released. I think that Game canon does not need to override the book canon. Technically, Game canon overriding book canon is what caused Halo universe to have too many problems and messed up stuff there.

I believe it is also said (in the books) that elite dies from 4 AR shots (3 to the shields, 1 to body. Grunts, Jackals and unarmored brutes probably from 1 shot).

Also, as other people have said, when covies were flying to the generators, where were all Wombats, Longswords and other intercepting aircraft? THAT'S a plothole.

  • 06.23.2011 1:59 PM PDT
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Posted by: Sp4rt4n119
Thank you sir, that was an epic rendition of this topic.


Posted by: Xx KNOX xX
and how!


Posted by: grey101
you do know your link does not say g>b right? staten just says they can fix what they do not like (and they did) the novel reach was and has not been "fixed" to stand with the game.

you do know Joseph Staten personally wrote contact harvest correct? and when games completely element gameplay elements they will then be "better" then the books.

becuase in the game nothing happens if you shoot a marine with a plasma pistol to the stomach, yet in the book CH everything pretty much falls out of said stomach.


Yes, I'm aware that Staten wrote Contact Harvest. I had the wrong link I apologize.

The correct source and quote is here, said once again by Staten.

Said by: Joseph Staten
- The games rank first
- Published materials (books, comics, soundtrack liner notes etc.) rank second
- Marketing and PR materials third


I would also like to point out that this is exactly what I said, and that I have had to show people they're wrong many a time.

Also: Your comment about shooting a Marine in the stomach with a Plasma Pistol is completely irrelevant. Do you know why? It's called GAME DESIGN. If all your allies turn into puddles after being shot a single time, they're useless and might as well not be there at all. Allies are put with you in the game to help you, and in Halo your allies can help you a considerable amount if you give them good weapons and work to keep them alive. If it were made to be realistic where they would all be bleeding out after a small firefight, all get shrapnel in their eyes from a single explosion, or all fall out of your Warthog and get crushed to death when you flip...YOU WOULD COMPLAIN.

Do you want a good example of this? Look at the Operation Flashpoint games. They're made to be realistic and they get poor reviews because people are impatient and suck at actual tactics, so they're better with Call of Duty's level of "realism".

If the game was more realistic, the sidearms wouldn't fire 12.7mm rounds, they'd fire something more along the lines of .40 or .45, and they definitely wouldn't be explosive. You know what else? The MA5B's realistic magazine size would be less than 20 rounds due to how short it is. Halo 1 just got a whole hell of a lot less fun, huh?

Realism isn't fun. That's why "realistic" games include unrealistic things.

  • 06.23.2011 2:02 PM PDT