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This topic has moved here: Subject: I declare Halo: Reach Non-Canon. Don't agree? Get over it.
  • Subject: I declare Halo: Reach Non-Canon. Don't agree? Get over it.
Subject: I declare Halo: Reach Non-Canon. Don't agree? Get over it.

"I may not be perfect, but always been true."


Posted by: Luage
Neither game nor book is automaticly more canon

What IS more canon is what is made first. The books were made first and are NOT fanfic. On the back of my books it sais: (C) 2007 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights Reserved. Microsoft, Bungie, the Bungie logo, Halo, the Halo logo, the Microsofte Game studios logo, Xbox, Xbox 360, Xbox live, and the Xbox logos are trademarks of the Microsoft group of companies.

This means that the books are authorised by Bungie.
Canon CAN NOT BE CHANGED once established.

And trying was a VERY bad desicion by bungie.


Funny, from what I remember Joseph Staten said that games rank first in Canon, coincidence? I don't think so.

  • 06.25.2011 10:36 AM PDT

But why authorize it, then disregard it? Especially when it did so well in telling the story. I wouldn't mind, I guess, if they did it justice.

  • 06.25.2011 11:22 AM PDT


Posted by: NAStheMagiking
But why authorize it, then disregard it? Especially when it did so well in telling the story. I wouldn't mind, I guess, if they did it justice.


When has bungie disregarded the book and said it was non-canon? They have not. Both Bungie and 343 accept BOTH as canon (343's waypoint videos talking about book and game events.)


Posted by: Luage
This means that the books are authorised by Bungie.
Canon CAN NOT BE CHANGED once established.


Somebody's never heard of retcon (minor or major).

[Edited on 06.25.2011 11:26 AM PDT]

  • 06.25.2011 11:25 AM PDT


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: NAStheMagiking
But why authorize it, then disregard it? Especially when it did so well in telling the story. I wouldn't mind, I guess, if they did it justice.


When has bungie disregarded the book and said it was non-canon? They have not. Both Bungie and 343 accept BOTH as canon (343's waypoint videos talking about book and game events.)
That's just weird to me. Either one series of events happened, or the other.

  • 06.25.2011 7:35 PM PDT


Posted by: NAStheMagiking

Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron

Posted by: NAStheMagiking
But why authorize it, then disregard it? Especially when it did so well in telling the story. I wouldn't mind, I guess, if they did it justice.


When has bungie disregarded the book and said it was non-canon? They have not. Both Bungie and 343 accept BOTH as canon (343's waypoint videos talking about book and game events.)
That's just weird to me. Either one series of events happened, or the other.


Why? I'm fairly sure if the people who hold the halo story bible can say both are canon, they can fit together.

  • 06.25.2011 7:42 PM PDT

Don't worry, you're still your mom's favorite Bnet member.

Halo: Reach is canon because the entire story is propaganda concocted by ONI.

  • 06.25.2011 7:45 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

"Because of numerous inconsistencies with previous Fallout games, Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel is not considered part of the official Fallout canon, however some of its content could be used as "flavor" material. "

Hmmm..

  • 06.25.2011 7:46 PM PDT
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Do not waste your tears, I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men.

Posted by: goldhawk
We should know better, because we are better.


Posted by: grey101
"Because of numerous inconsistencies with previous Fallout games, Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel is not considered part of the official Fallout canon, however some of its content could be used as "flavor" material. "

Hmmm..

Where did you get that from? That sounds like an idea the Universe might like.

  • 06.25.2011 7:58 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?

Fallout wiki under said game

  • 06.25.2011 8:07 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: grey101
Fallout wiki under said game

It's also the mindset of the majority of the Fallout fanbase.

  • 06.25.2011 8:09 PM PDT


Posted by: MegaMuffin16
Halo: Reach is canon because the entire story is propaganda concocted by ONI.


More like if anything, portions are edited.

I doubt an ONI officer would lie to ANOTHER ONI officer about it being accurate.

  • 06.25.2011 8:10 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: grey101
Fallout wiki under said game

It's also the mindset of the majority of the Fallout fanbase.


Is this where we team up with the waypoint forums and make an official fan poll on the matter?

  • 06.25.2011 8:12 PM PDT

@accordingto343

Your one stop shop for all of 343's fabulous errors and ridiculous notions in the Halo lore.

Posted by: grey101

Posted by: DecepticonCobra
Posted by: grey101
Fallout wiki under said game

It's also the mindset of the majority of the Fallout fanbase.


Is this where we team up with the waypoint forums and make an official fan poll on the matter?

I suppose so, but if you do look for me, look up GoVader501, my username here doesn't work on Waypoint.

  • 06.25.2011 8:18 PM PDT


Posted by: raganok99
OrderedComa

And it makes more sense than the game's account? *snicker* I'm sorry, but Reach, Humanity's strongest world next to Earth falling in a grand total of TWO hours is just plain laughable for reasons both DaeFaron and RKOSnake listed. Given what TFoR itself told about the UNSC defenses at Reach and everything else, the battle for Reach would have lasted a great deal longer than two hours. Taking two weeks to fall to the Covenant makes infinitely more sense!


Clearly, you don't understand at all. Of course, it makes perfect sense! You surely know that Covenant HAD SUPERIOR technology to the UNSC. DO you not realize that Plasma melts through the Titanium-A Battle-Plate like butter?! Or, most of UNSC ships CANNOT survive repeated hits from Covenant ships. (NOTE: Halo CE did not show extensive damages done to PoA because of game engine limitations). You horribly misunderstand about two hours...! Two hours is space battle! Most of UNSC fleet fought against the Covenant Fleet for TWO HOURS, guess what? Who lost? Yeah, UNSC! Then glassing/plasma bombardment started, effectively ending the battle of Reach in a day. However, small ground skirmishes (SPARTANs) lasted a week to two.

Despite strong defenses, Covenant sent overwhelming armies to overrun the Reach. Numbers does play role in the military world. Let's imagine a event: What if a small team of marines fights against the entire army, how I can say? numbers in 100,000? Who would lose? Yeah, a small team of marines would be wiped out because of overwhelming numbers threw against them. Same concept with Reach...


Superior technology does not guarantee victory, especially not for the Covenant, we've seen what the UNSC can do, just because the Covenant have the better technology is not going to assure them an easy win. And numbers do not mean victory either, they sure do help, but it's superior tactics and positioning, among other things, that wins (or at least prolongs) the battle. The UNSC had all of these things, in addition the space battle at Reach was a siege situation, and regardless of weaponry those always last quite a while in comparison to just straight out pitched battle.

The timing of events for the battle in the book is completely ludicrous. For one, figuring in the orbital defenses as well as the full strength of the UNSC navy being present against 314 Covenant ships is even odds. If memory serves me well TFoR states that roughly a third of the Covenant fleet was destroyed by a massive minefield immediately upon engaging UNSC forces. And add in all the greatest military minds the UNSC had at the time, such as Keyes who frequently pulled off the impossible, hell even just the SMACs, the orbital defenses falling in a mere two hours is laughable.

But what's even more laughable is the Generator Complex, Fleet High Command (or whatever it's actual name is), and other high priority UNSC areas falling a short time after the Covenant dropships are at the polls when such locations are on the equator. And not to mention that of the thousands of dropships launched only hundred actually made it down to the planet where they would have been quickly mopped up by the UNSC's airforces. That little gem is truly the most laughable.

And as for your point about superior numbers always coming out ahead of their opponants and beating them with ease, I leave you these two battles to ponder, the Battle of Thermopylae (hardly what I'd call a Persian victory even though they did exterminate the Greek holding the pass) and this battle during one of Israel's early wars against the Arab Nations: Battle of Yad Mordechai. The Israelis had a hundred men armed with only rifles, a medium machine gun, and a PIAT anti-tank weapon. And they held up a force of 25,000 Egyptians who had the support of armor units, artillery, and air support for a full five days.

  • 06.25.2011 8:33 PM PDT

"The Emperor Protects"
"Suffer Not To Let The Unclean Live"

in my opinion we only got a glimpse of some of what was going on. some black ops missions if you will. Not to mention Carter hints to the fact that the UNSC has already lost a ton of ships n the mission LNOS. but i do agree with the idea of the super MACs there should have been some

  • 06.25.2011 8:35 PM PDT
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I just play for fun. MLG can kiss my ass.

The OP is SO UNWISE. He's not Bungie or 343I, he's an idiot for thinking he can control canon.

  • 06.25.2011 8:37 PM PDT

"The Emperor Protects"
"Suffer Not To Let The Unclean Live"


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: raganok99
OrderedComa

And it makes more sense than the game's account? *snicker* I'm sorry, but Reach, Humanity's strongest world next to Earth falling in a grand total of TWO hours is just plain laughable for reasons both DaeFaron and RKOSnake listed. Given what TFoR itself told about the UNSC defenses at Reach and everything else, the battle for Reach would have lasted a great deal longer than two hours. Taking two weeks to fall to the Covenant makes infinitely more sense!


Clearly, you don't understand at all. Of course, it makes perfect sense! You surely know that Covenant HAD SUPERIOR technology to the UNSC. DO you not realize that Plasma melts through the Titanium-A Battle-Plate like butter?! Or, most of UNSC ships CANNOT survive repeated hits from Covenant ships. (NOTE: Halo CE did not show extensive damages done to PoA because of game engine limitations). You horribly misunderstand about two hours...! Two hours is space battle! Most of UNSC fleet fought against the Covenant Fleet for TWO HOURS, guess what? Who lost? Yeah, UNSC! Then glassing/plasma bombardment started, effectively ending the battle of Reach in a day. However, small ground skirmishes (SPARTANs) lasted a week to two.

Despite strong defenses, Covenant sent overwhelming armies to overrun the Reach. Numbers does play role in the military world. Let's imagine a event: What if a small team of marines fights against the entire army, how I can say? numbers in 100,000? Who would lose? Yeah, a small team of marines would be wiped out because of overwhelming numbers threw against them. Same concept with Reach...


Superior technology does not guarantee victory, especially not for the Covenant, we've seen what the UNSC can do, just because the Covenant have the better technology is not going to assure them an easy win. And numbers do not mean victory either, they sure do help, but it's superior tactics and positioning, among other things, that wins (or at least prolongs) the battle. The UNSC had all of these things, in addition the space battle at Reach was a siege situation, and regardless of weaponry those always last quite a while in comparison to just straight out pitched battle.

The timing of events for the battle in the book is completely ludicrous. For one, figuring in the orbital defenses as well as the full strength of the UNSC navy being present against 314 Covenant ships is even odds. If memory serves me well TFoR states that roughly a third of the Covenant fleet was destroyed by a massive minefield immediately upon engaging UNSC forces. And add in all the greatest military minds the UNSC had at the time, such as Keyes who frequently pulled off the impossible, hell even just the SMACs, the orbital defenses falling in a mere two hours is laughable.

But what's even more laughable is the Generator Complex, Fleet High Command (or whatever it's actual name is), and other high priority UNSC areas falling a short time after the Covenant dropships are at the polls when such locations are on the equator. And not to mention that of the thousands of dropships launched only hundred actually made it down to the planet where they would have been quickly mopped up by the UNSC's airforces. That little gem is truly the most laughable.

And as for your point about superior numbers always coming out ahead of their opponants and beating them with ease, I leave you these two battles to ponder, the Battle of Thermopylae (hardly what I'd call a Persian victory even though they did exterminate the Greek holding the pass) and this battle during one of Israel's early wars against the Arab Nations: Battle of Yad Mordechai. The Israelis had a hundred men armed with only rifles, a medium machine gun, and a PIAT anti-tank weapon. And they held up a force of 25,000 Egyptians who had the support of armor units, artillery, and air support for a full five days.

and i thought i knew what i was talking about!

  • 06.25.2011 8:38 PM PDT


Posted by: MegaMuffin16
Halo: Reach is canon because the entire story is propaganda concocted by ONI.
I've heard about this theory. I need to look into it.

  • 06.25.2011 8:40 PM PDT


Posted by: NAStheMagiking

Posted by: MegaMuffin16
Halo: Reach is canon because the entire story is propaganda concocted by ONI.
I've heard about this theory. I need to look into it.


The theory is "We don't even want to think of Reach as canon despite bungie and 343 both stating it as such. Since we don't want to think beyond any errors (and/or exaggerate them to be far larger then they actually are instead of thinking about them and possible ways to connect/make them not as big using information given) it must ALL be propaganda by ONI to boost morale/make people hate the covenant many years after the war."

Over the top on my end? Yes, but that is how I've basically heard it from some supporters of it.

Now, cobra's variant is the one I like. It's basically "Some of it/certain parts might be edited/changed by the ONI propaganda wing, but the bulk of it is the accurate and factual events."

Cause, if Halo Reach is ALL propaganda, why would ONI show Spartans dying? Since their propaganda machine was constantly stressing that Spartan's don't die.

  • 06.25.2011 8:51 PM PDT

How do you think that what happened in both the book, and the game, fits together?

  • 06.25.2011 9:09 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: OrderedComa

Posted by: raganok99
OrderedComa

And it makes more sense than the game's account? *snicker* I'm sorry, but Reach, Humanity's strongest world next to Earth falling in a grand total of TWO hours is just plain laughable for reasons both DaeFaron and RKOSnake listed. Given what TFoR itself told about the UNSC defenses at Reach and everything else, the battle for Reach would have lasted a great deal longer than two hours. Taking two weeks to fall to the Covenant makes infinitely more sense!


Clearly, you don't understand at all. Of course, it makes perfect sense! You surely know that Covenant HAD SUPERIOR technology to the UNSC. DO you not realize that Plasma melts through the Titanium-A Battle-Plate like butter?! Or, most of UNSC ships CANNOT survive repeated hits from Covenant ships. (NOTE: Halo CE did not show extensive damages done to PoA because of game engine limitations). You horribly misunderstand about two hours...! Two hours is space battle! Most of UNSC fleet fought against the Covenant Fleet for TWO HOURS, guess what? Who lost? Yeah, UNSC! Then glassing/plasma bombardment started, effectively ending the battle of Reach in a day. However, small ground skirmishes (SPARTANs) lasted a week to two.

Despite strong defenses, Covenant sent overwhelming armies to overrun the Reach. Numbers does play role in the military world. Let's imagine a event: What if a small team of marines fights against the entire army, how I can say? numbers in 100,000? Who would lose? Yeah, a small team of marines would be wiped out because of overwhelming numbers threw against them. Same concept with Reach...


Superior technology does not guarantee victory, especially not for the Covenant, we've seen what the UNSC can do, just because the Covenant have the better technology is not going to assure them an easy win. And numbers do not mean victory either, they sure do help, but it's superior tactics and positioning, among other things, that wins (or at least prolongs) the battle. The UNSC had all of these things, in addition the space battle at Reach was a siege situation, and regardless of weaponry those always last quite a while in comparison to just straight out pitched battle.

The timing of events for the battle in the book is completely ludicrous. For one, figuring in the orbital defenses as well as the full strength of the UNSC navy being present against 314 Covenant ships is even odds. If memory serves me well TFoR states that roughly a third of the Covenant fleet was destroyed by a massive minefield immediately upon engaging UNSC forces. And add in all the greatest military minds the UNSC had at the time, such as Keyes who frequently pulled off the impossible, hell even just the SMACs, the orbital defenses falling in a mere two hours is laughable.

But what's even more laughable is the Generator Complex, Fleet High Command (or whatever it's actual name is), and other high priority UNSC areas falling a short time after the Covenant dropships are at the polls when such locations are on the equator. And not to mention that of the thousands of dropships launched only hundred actually made it down to the planet where they would have been quickly mopped up by the UNSC's airforces. That little gem is truly the most laughable.

And as for your point about superior numbers always coming out ahead of their opponants and beating them with ease, I leave you these two battles to ponder, the Battle of Thermopylae (hardly what I'd call a Persian victory even though they did exterminate the Greek holding the pass) and this battle during one of Israel's early wars against the Arab Nations: Battle of Yad Mordechai. The Israelis had a hundred men armed with only rifles, a medium machine gun, and a PIAT anti-tank weapon. And they held up a force of 25,000 Egyptians who had the support of armor units, artillery, and air support for a full five days.



1. the whole basses of fighting the covenant was that reason coma. give both the UNSC sticks and stones and the UNSC will win. make them 100 percent equal and the UNSC will win, they were losing due to the covenant having better space tech, that was the theme brought up and reinforced constantly.

and remember that this is halo thus you are going to stop relying solely on what is realistic about the events. Technology was the main factor because the UNSC could not replace ships fast as they lost them not to mention they were mainly building frigates (which majority of every fleet is made of) which do not stand up against the standard CCS class.

Don't even get me started on shields and slipspace travel.

2. i re-posted the events of the battle on page 2, which is funny becuase i was talking to you then also.

there are several factors that you aren't taking into account despite you being harshly realistic.

A) reach had no idea they were going to be attacked and were not ready for it

B) Despite having about 150 ships (which still doesn't add up to the needed ratio) the reinforcements were outside the system and arrived far too late.

C) majority of the UNSC ships are frigates in which case 3 are needed to take out a ship. not to mention the larger ships they have are rare,large and slower thus they are a bigger target and are taken out first like the Trafalgar.

D) Armament, seeing how the UNSC relays on projectiles they have the chance of being caught dry in the fight something that doesn't happen with the covenant. ships normally run out of Archer missiles at first sight and are destroyed before they can even use up their macs.

3. exaggeration the only great shipmaster we know of are keyes and cole.

4. it was stated that hundreds must have gotten through not only 100. which is actually an extremely good number that i doubt they thought about.
spirits can hold 30 troops each so if a single hundred of them got through that would be 3000 troops which would indeed be thousands. not to mention 200 ghosts or 100 wraiths
Phantoms can hold about 27 troops along with 2 ghosts or a wraith. so we have 2700 infantry;200 ghost' or 100 wraiths.

so regardless if even 200-300 mixed dropships got by that would mean several generators would be overrun and that is now established.

5. nothing was stated about the UNSC airforce until we say wombats in ODST. before then we thought they disbanded in halo so ether they were wiped out or thye just were not on reach. even so the plasma from the dropships would just melt them anyway

  • 06.25.2011 9:15 PM PDT


Posted by: NAStheMagiking
How do you think that what happened in both the book, and the game, fits together?


The book battle was the final fall, as is described by a waypoint video talking about the space battle.

Though, doesn't the redone book have Halsey's line changed from "Covenant arrived in system at (this hour)" *Aka, first time arriving* to "We'll deal with today, I know the Covenant arrived in full force at (this hour)" *Aka, covenant were present beforehand, and on the 30th was when they attacked in full force for the first time.*

  • 06.25.2011 9:16 PM PDT

Not entirely true about the air force grey. The Skyhawks which attacked Master Chief during armor training were labeled as being UNSC air force weren't they? Though... dropships would only be able to kill aircraft below them, as they have no upward guns. And the 4 50mm cannons would do quite a number.

Though, in other topics we've agreed the lack of UNSC scrambling counter strike to the well known dropships is a rather "whut?" bit of the book.

  • 06.25.2011 9:19 PM PDT
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Posted by: DecepticonCobra

We are all going to get banned aren't we?


Posted by: Cmdr DaeFaron



1. issues with covenant getting in the system to start with becuase people are constantly monitoring for slipspace transit.

2. sensors would pick up anything moving into the system.

3. the ships having cloak just would not work due to the size,UNSC having sensory stations (and ships).

4. taking out 1 of 3 communication relays should not stop all communications.

5. what side of the planet has a complete lack of orbiting ships/stations to where covenant ships can freely fly to the surface? how would said ships not be noticed on re-entry?

6. cortana did not need some random artifact to get the location that would lead to halo. she got this shortly after getting the crystal (thats all she could decode)

7. the PoA being on reach


so many more issues but i just wanted to stop at 7

  • 06.25.2011 9:24 PM PDT