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Subject: Russian Terror Attacks
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Posted by: Stalin the 31st
I certainly wouldn't be thinking rationally.

Survival instinct. We as a race strive to survive, and any threat towards our lives are met with what we assume to be 'Irrational thinking'. That is our survival instinct kicking in, and we would do anything to survive.


It's not assumed, since it's abstract and given the context, is very truly irrational. If your overall goal should be to save as many people as possible and to keep these terror attacks under control, then you very well couldn't make the difficult decision to risk sacrificing those people if you are among them.

Like you said, your survival instinct would kick in and prevent you from making the correct, rational decision. Though there are those rare people who do manage to control that instinct and make the better decision.

  • 09.01.2004 8:14 AM PDT
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Posted by: ObbiQuiet
Of course it would. But, when your life is being threatened since when are you able to think rationally?

i wouldn't know, my life has never been threatened.
but my point was that if you were among them right now, wouldn't you like knowing that your government was going to do everything in its power (compromise aside) to
1. get you out alive.
2. quell the situation.
in that order?

EDIT:
ah, you misunderstood my previous post. i didn't mean that you were the one calling the shots and also among them. just that you were among them.

[Edited on 9/1/2004 8:19:15 AM]

  • 09.01.2004 8:16 AM PDT
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Revealing prevoius post.

  • 09.01.2004 8:18 AM PDT
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Posted by: BadKarma
Posted by: ObbiQuiet
Of course it would. But, when your life is being threatened since when are you able to think rationally?

i wouldn't know, my life has never been threatened.
but my point was that if you were among them right now, wouldn't you like knowing that your government was going to do everything in its power (compromise aside) to
1. get you out alive.
2. quell the situation.
in that order?


Of course I would want that. Your point?

  • 09.01.2004 8:19 AM PDT
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Posted by: ObbiQuiet
Of course I would want that. Your point?

as a leader, wouldn't that then become your responsibility?

EDIT:
that was a little vague, so i'll expand upon it.
given that you just agreed you'd want your government (as everyone one else would, i imagine) to get you out alive and quell the situation, in that order, isn't it the responsibility of the government - as representatives of the people - to satisfy this? again, this is all stemming from my belief that the russian government is not doing all it can in these situations, or in preparation of these situations.

[Edited on 9/1/2004 8:29:47 AM]

  • 09.01.2004 8:23 AM PDT
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Posted by: BadKarma
Posted by: ObbiQuiet
Of course I would want that. Your point?

as a leader, wouldn't that then become your responsibility?


No. My responsibility would be to look beyond that and see into the long-term possibilities. If you show ruthlessness, though those people may die, you may end up stopping future terrorist attacks, which might overall save more people.

Your job as a leader is to not only consider those who are in danger, but consider those who could be in danger.

  • 09.01.2004 8:25 AM PDT
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Posted by: ObbiQuiet
No. My responsibility would be to look beyond that and see into the long-term possibilities. If you show ruthlessness, though those people may die, you may end up stopping future terrorist attacks, which might overall save more people.

Your job as a leader is to not only consider those who are in danger, but consider those who could be in danger.

i understand all of that. which is why i asked if your view would be altered if you were one of the ones being condemned to die.

EDIT:
"If you show ruthlessness, though those people may die, you may end up stopping future terrorist attacks, which might overall save more people."
may and might are the operative words in that statement. and i for one, do not want my government sacrificing my life for may and might.

[Edited on 9/1/2004 8:41:48 AM]

  • 09.01.2004 8:31 AM PDT
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Posted by: BadKarma
Posted by: ObbiQuiet
No. My responsibility would be to look beyond that and see into the long-term possibilities. If you show ruthlessness, though those people may die, you may end up stopping future terrorist attacks, which might overall save more people.

Your job as a leader is to not only consider those who are in danger, but consider those who could be in danger.

i understand all of that. which is why i asked if your view would be altered if you were one of the ones being condemned to die.


Which is one of the risks you have to take as a leader. You assume the responsibility for ALL your people. You have to choose - is a handful of them worth endangering all of them?

  • 09.01.2004 8:49 AM PDT
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Posted by: ObbiQuiet
Which is one of the risks you have to take as a leader. You assume the responsibility for ALL your people. You have to choose - is a handful of them worth endangering all of them?

cutting class today? you're not one of the saps who said school is pointless are you?
anyways, in an ideal society i think the answer to that would be yes. but we don't live in one, so there's no point in going that route.
again though, you have to understand the players involved in this drama. it would not surprise me in the least if Vladimir Putin sees this act as an act of aggression against him. and that by crushing the terrorists, even at the expense of civilian lives, he is sending out a message "Don't -blam!- with me." is that rational?

  • 09.01.2004 9:00 AM PDT
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Posted by: BadKarma
Posted by: ObbiQuiet
Which is one of the risks you have to take as a leader. You assume the responsibility for ALL your people. You have to choose - is a handful of them worth endangering all of them?

cutting class today? you're not one of the saps who said school is pointless are you?
anyways, in an ideal society i think the answer to that would be yes. but we don't live in one, so there's no point in going that route.
again though, you have to understand the players involved in this drama. it would not surprise me in the least if Vladimir Putin sees this act as an act of aggression against him. and that by crushing the terrorists, even at the expense of civilian lives, he is sending out a message "Don't -blam!- with me." is that rational?


Perhaps it's not rational, from a leadership standpoint. It depends mainly on how he views his role as leader - is he a leader because it's all about him, or is he a leader because he's best suited toward leading the people?

And yes I am out of school, but I'm sick. My brother, sister, mother and father have all been sick and I've just got it. I've got a fever, and generally feel like poo.

  • 09.01.2004 9:04 AM PDT
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On BBC they said that the hostage takers demands are the release of captured chenyen fighters. also about sniping the bomber or a seize they have lined the children agaisnt the windows and for every hostage taker killed they would kill 50, for every wounded 20. Gods -blam!- damn it... what really makes me mad aboutt his whole thing is these chidlren who are going to suffer have no politicial or military meaning, they are the most innocent of us all...

  • 09.01.2004 9:08 AM PDT
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Posted by: Fallen Seraph
On BBC they said that the hostage takers demands are the release of captured chenyen fighters. also about sniping the bomber or a seize they have lined the children agaisnt the windows and for every hostage taker killed they would kill 50, for every wounded 20. Gods -blam!- damn it... what really makes me mad aboutt his whole thing is these chidlren who are going to suffer have no politicial or military meaning, they are the most innocent of us all...


I find my feelings towards children interesting. When talking of these children of our species I feel a total need to protect them. It's not a type of motherly love, but more of a willing need to protect them.

  • 09.01.2004 9:12 AM PDT
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Posted by: ObbiQuiet
Posted by: Fallen Seraph
On BBC they said that the hostage takers demands are the release of captured chenyen fighters. also about sniping the bomber or a seize they have lined the children agaisnt the windows and for every hostage taker killed they would kill 50, for every wounded 20. Gods -blam!- damn it... what really makes me mad aboutt his whole thing is these chidlren who are going to suffer have no politicial or military meaning, they are the most innocent of us all...


I find my feelings towards children interesting. When talking of these children of our species I feel a total need to protect them. It's not a type of motherly love, but more of a willing need to protect them.

they are the next generation and for parents they are their best gift to the world if raised well.

  • 09.01.2004 9:13 AM PDT
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Posted by: Fallen Seraph
Posted by: ObbiQuiet
Posted by: Fallen Seraph
On BBC they said that the hostage takers demands are the release of captured chenyen fighters. also about sniping the bomber or a seize they have lined the children agaisnt the windows and for every hostage taker killed they would kill 50, for every wounded 20. Gods -blam!- damn it... what really makes me mad aboutt his whole thing is these chidlren who are going to suffer have no politicial or military meaning, they are the most innocent of us all...


I find my feelings towards children interesting. When talking of these children of our species I feel a total need to protect them. It's not a type of motherly love, but more of a willing need to protect them.

they are the next generation and for parents they are their best gift to the world if raised well.


It's that on a rational conscious level, but there's something deeper and more instinctive about it.

  • 09.01.2004 9:15 AM PDT
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Well yes the most basic instinct of any species is to make sure their young live on and live healthy to carry on the species.

  • 09.01.2004 9:16 AM PDT
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Posted by: Fallen Seraph
Well yes the most basic instinct of any species is to make sure their young live on and live healthy to carry on the species.


Which is why I find this introspection into my feelings to be so interesting.

  • 09.01.2004 9:19 AM PDT
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Posted by: Assassin B
Oh yeah, I forgot the bomb...
OK, they set up a sniper perimeter, wait for him to come it to view, and drop him. If he doesnt ever come into view, they could maybe send in a SWAT team through vent shafts or something. I dont know what they could do. Maybe they could pull one of these.


sorry if the convos changes from this post, but havent you seen speed? the guy probably has one of those triggers that when its dropped it detonates.

  • 09.01.2004 9:38 AM PDT
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this hostage taking will most likely go well into tongiht or tommorow he would not have something like that.

  • 09.01.2004 9:40 AM PDT
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why dont they negotiate? why does the government have suxh pride over their "dont cooperate with terrorist" rules? why do the citizens agree? more innocent lives are lost when the government tries to nuetrilize the terrorist then if they just reasoned with them. this is why im anti government.

  • 09.01.2004 9:44 AM PDT
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Most governemnts have a policy of no negotiating with terrorist.

  • 09.01.2004 9:45 AM PDT
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Posted by: johny joe
why dont they negotiate? why does the government have suxh pride over their "dont cooperate with terrorist" rules? why do the citizens agree? more innocent lives are lost when the government tries to nuetrilize the terrorist then if they just reasoned with them. this is why im anti government.


You don't reason with terrorists. Their entire purpose is deep-rooted and fanatically religious or political. You are NOT going to be able to 'reason' with them.

This is why I'm anti-you. You're naive.

  • 09.01.2004 9:46 AM PDT
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Depending on the situation if a governemnt gives in there will be just more attacks and hostage situations, the terrorist will exploit whatever they can.

  • 09.01.2004 9:48 AM PDT
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Posted by: ObbiQuiet
Posted by: johny joe
why dont they negotiate? why does the government have suxh pride over their "dont cooperate with terrorist" rules? why do the citizens agree? more innocent lives are lost when the government tries to nuetrilize the terrorist then if they just reasoned with them. this is why im anti government.


You don't reason with terrorists. Their entire purpose is deep-rooted and fanatically religious or political. You are NOT going to be able to 'reason' with them.

This is why I'm anti-you. You're naive.


i think both sides are wrong. its wrong to take a school full of kids hostage, but its also wrong to storm the building an basically force the terrorists to kill the innocent. i see that reasoning with them can seem stupid, but its saving lives.

[Edited on 9/1/2004 9:49:43 AM]

  • 09.01.2004 9:49 AM PDT
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The problem with these guys is that they don't care if they are captured or killed. When you lose that fear of dying, you are capable of almost anything, and no one can do anything to stop you.

  • 09.01.2004 9:50 AM PDT
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Posted by: ObbiQuiet
Perhaps it's not rational, from a leadership standpoint. It depends mainly on how he views his role as leader - is he a leader because it's all about him, or is he a leader because he's best suited toward leading the people?

sorry for the delay, went on lunch break.
as far as how he views his role as leader, i would not hesitate in saying it is all about him. but that's probably a discussion not meant for this forum.

And yes I am out of school, but I'm sick. My brother, sister, mother and father have all been sick and I've just got it. I've got a fever, and generally feel like poo.
sorry to hear that. glad to hear that your sister is ok, though.

  • 09.01.2004 9:50 AM PDT

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